God exist; can you prove me wrong?

elijah44

 The argument “God exists because you can’t disprove him” is . Anyone can just say something exists and use the same argument. God doesn’t exist because there is no evidence but “you can’t disprove him” Gods have been around since civilizations, because with no religion, they feel without meaning. Humans need meaning to survive, so we came up with stories that turned into religion that gave order and meaning in these civilizations.

Joeseph

WHAT A " FABULOUS " ARGUMENT GOD EXISTS PROVE ME WRONG .......

GODS LOVING NATURE CANNOT BE DENIED , HE WATCHED HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE GET GASSED TO.DEATH BECAUSE HE LOVES THEM........



I WONDER WHY THIS LOVING GOD THINKS BABIES SHOULD BE INFLICTED WITH HORRENDOUS DISEASES?

MAYBE ITS PART OF HIS GRAND PLAN?


LETS LOOK AT THE " GRANDEUR " OF GODS  NATURE .....

maxx

i hope you know rna was created before dna showed up in life . i guess you think life are animals of some kind, however cells are alive and the first cells prokaryotic cells, which emerged over around 4 billion years ago. Evolution of cells - Wikipedia  if there is a god; and i highly doubt he is based upon any of the religions on earth; but if there is some sort of creator; then it seems more logical that he would create everything as we see it; starting out with a chemical soup; designed gor everything to evolve as we see it today. @Factfinder

Barnardot

@Joeseph ;HE WATCHED HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE GET GASSED TO.DEATH BECAUSE HE LOVES THEM........

I learned this song when I was a kid at religious class. Ahemmmmm........Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so.

So see what I mean. Your got to go through the proper channels. Thats why kids shouldn't be asking that grumpy murderous bastard God. They should ask Jesus because Jesus loves you you know. Then Jesus can go and soften up his Pop when he goes round to his place and say. Hay Pop see that one kid down there. He is more special than all the others and I love him so so please spare him. Oh and Pop he's all so a really good *&%^. 

Joeseph

@maxx

but if there is some sort of creator; then it seems more logical that he would create everything as we see it; starting out with a chemical soup; designed gor everything to evolve as we see it today. @Factfinder

"Logical" really? Like babies being born with cancer or tsunamis,  earthquakes etc , etc? You think a vastly intelligent entity could do a better job.

maxx

Probably.  But not if he had no hand in anything.  Create everything from scratch and just observe. Similarto an experiment. I'm not saying there is such, but it makes more sense that the religions we have here on earth. @Joeseph

just_sayin

@Joeseph
Thank you for showing the utter uselessness of atheism.  I don't think I could have done a better job than you did.  When faced with the problem of evil, the atheists response is 'it is just the way things are'.  How pathetic.  What an incredibly shallow and distant response to the suffering of others.  In the atheist's world view there is no ultimate justice.  There is no hope.  Atheism can't even claim that there is objective evil.  Evil is just stuff people don't like happening in their world view.  Atheists can't honestly say to someone who went through the Holocaust that what happened to them was objectively evil - just an experience they didn't like.  Wow, what an utterly useless and hopeless world view.

In contrast, we see in the evidence of the cross and the resurrection, that God became incarnate and suffered on the cross for us.  He can identify with our suffering.  He is not distant from it, for he experienced it for himself.  Further, the evidence of the resurrection, shows us that God overcame death and that those who put their trust in him will one day rise again as he did.  This offers hope of ultimate justice - the kind of hope that atheists can not provide.

Could God have made a world without evil?  Sure - a robotic world - we can do this in computers now.  However, a world without evil, is also a world without good and love.  Both are the product of free will.  The same person who is capable of great love and good, is also capable of great evil. God has chosen to provide a world were both are possible.  And without the hope provided by Christ's resurrection, many would not see justice in this life.  But death is not the end as Jesus claimed.  For that reason, the person of faith has much hope and comfort that they can offer to those who are suffering.  While all atheism has is superficial platitudes like 'things are just the way they are, deal with it.'

Again, thank you. Thank you!!!!  You have made it clear how utterly useless atheism is to those who are suffering.  

Joeseph

@maxx

Yes fair point it seems this entity would not be one I'd care to know.

Joeseph

@just_sayin


Thank you for showing the utter uselessness of atheism

It's wonderful actually the truth only seems to hurt bible thumpers.


.  I don't think I could have done a better job than you did

Read above.


.  When faced with the problem of evil, the atheists response is 'it is just the way things are'

But that wasn't my response, you're again inventing and fighting against arguments I haven't made.


.  How pathetic.  What an incredibly shallow and distant response to the suffering of others. 

Yet I've given no opinion.


 In the atheist's world view there is no ultimate justice.

You mean like sentencing someone to eternity in a fiery lake for the smallest of transgressions?


  There is no hope.  Atheism can't even claim that there is objective evil.

Yes , how do you go about proving there is?


  Evil is just stuff people don't like happening in their world view.  Atheists can't honestly say to someone who went through the Holocaust that what happened to them was objectively evil - just an experience they didn't like.  Wow, what an utterly useless and hopeless world view.

I don't know what Atheists you're talking about its not me.

In contrast, we see in the evidence of the cross and the resurrection, that God became incarnate and suffered on the cross for us. 

He died for a weekend in return for eternity  ,what a " sacrifice" LOL.  Very strange he apparently died for our sins as a sacrifice to himself yet judges us for the very sins he apparently died for .....seriously?


He can identify with our suffering.  He is not distant from it, for he experienced it for himself. 

Really? You would think he might demonstrate his " identity" with suffering by shifting his useless a- s instead of daily watching babies die of cancer and doing nothing ......He can identify with our suffering........ROFLMAO


Further, the evidence of the resurrection, shows us that God overcame death and that those who put their trust in him will one day rise again as he did.  This offers hope of ultimate justice - the kind of hope that atheists can not provide.

There is no evidence two totally contradictory accounts demonstrate this.

Could God have made a world without evil?  Sure - a robotic world - we can do this in computers now.  However, a world without evil, is also a world without good and love.  Both are the product of free will. 

Yeah he could , what's wrong with beings incapable of doing " evil" it seems to work in heaven according to Christians so according to you the next life is " robotic" right?


The same person who is capable of great love and good, is also capable of great evil. God has chosen to provide a world were both are possible.  And without the hope provided by Christ's resurrection, many would not see justice in this life.  But death is not the end as Jesus claimed.  For that reason, the person of faith has much hope and comfort that they can offer to those who are suffering.  While all atheism has is superficial platitudes like 'things are just the way they are, deal with it.'

You actually think Atheists don't grieve wow, that's some disconnect , the cruellest thing is giving people false hope .

Again, thank you. Thank you!!!!  You have made it clear how utterly useless atheism is to those who are suffering.  

You spent your whole post arguing several points I never made just so you can vent and preach , you're starting to make Rickey look normal no mean feat.

maxx

Better than what some think we have here on earth. Or consider this, everything in the universe is connected at a fundamental level . Another idea is that the universe is but a single particle among billions of other particles. @Joeseph

Factfinder

elijah44 said:

 The argument “God exists because you can’t disprove him” is . Anyone can just say something exists and use the same argument. God doesn’t exist because there is no evidence but “you can’t disprove him” Gods have been around since civilizations, because with no religion, they feel without meaning. Humans need meaning to survive, so we came up with stories that turned into religion that gave order and meaning in these civilizations.

Actually I didn't make the argument "because you can't disprove him", I asked "can you prove me wrong?" So am I to infer by your statement you can not? 

How would one with no concept of god in any way back in the primitive age arise at a point where life must have meaning and it must come from what we can't detect?

If god isn't real why would atheists need to drum up mythical stories to explain why humans are gravitating toward orderly lives?

MayCaesar

Cheekiness aside, I think that the request from theists to prove that god does not exist is not as unreasonable as one might think. After all, god's existence could potentially have dramatic effects on the observable world, and one could point at some of those effects and ask if they can be explained under the hypothesis that god does not exist. Up until the late 19-th century, for instance, it was not clear how the Sun could produce as much energy as it did since nuclear physics was still in its inception, and the attempts to derive the amount of electromagnetic energy the Sun produces from regular electromagnetic considerations failed miserably. Since at that time the predominant view on physics was that "all the fundamentals of physics are already known and we will never make any groundbreaking discoveries again", one could argue that the Sun did not conform with the laws of physics - while it could be perfectly explained as a creation of a supernatural being, therefore not being bound by the laws of physics.

Since only two possibilities exist - god exists, or god does not exist - one rejecting the hypothesis of god's existence would be necessarily accepting the hypothesis of god's non-existence. And "the laws of physics produced everything" is as good as that.

There are, of course, two glaring issues here.

1. Few people definitively say that "god does not exist". Most non-theists will say something like "There is no reason to assume that god exists", or "Assumption of god's existence does not contribute anything of substance" (this is close to my position), or even "God might exist, but it is unlikely to be a god of one of the human-made religions". There are also other theistic positions, such as polytheism (godS exist), various kinds of spiritualism (gods as such do not exist, but supernatural beings far greater than humans do exist), traditional folklore religions involving unusual, but natural, creatures... Finally, there are agnostics who simply refuse to take a stance and say simply, "I do not know".
2. When choosing between two competing hypotheses, one does not have to prove one of them to be correct with 100% certainty in order to accept it. For practical purposes, it is sufficient to show that one hypothesis explains the observations really well, while the other one does not - and especially if this hypothesis is also simpler than the other one (for instance, "X does not exist" is simpler than "X does exist"), then one might as well accept it.

So people who claim that one would have to believe in god in the absence of proof of its non-existence 1) refer to a very small minority of people to whom this applies, and 2) apply unreasonably high epistemological standards. It is like saying, "I do not know who murdered Jack White, but I will posit that it was a member of the Baker family, and unless the Baker family proves with 100% certainty that they did not murder Jack White, they will be assumed to be the murderers". Nothing works like that in the real world, and no one reasoning like this genuinely pursues the truth.

Factfinder

maxx said:

i hope you know rna was created before dna showed up in life . i guess you think life are animals of some kind, however cells are alive and the first cells prokaryotic cells, which emerged over around 4 billion years ago. Evolution of cells - Wikipedia  if there is a god; and i highly doubt he is based upon any of the religions on earth; but if there is some sort of creator; then it seems more logical that he would create everything as we see it; starting out with a chemical soup; designed gor everything to evolve as we see it today. @Factfinder

You know you have a good point but like I said, the bible isn't about explaining the details of creation as we wouldn't understand it today if we had all the answers before us. We can know that by the fact as you point out we see creation as it is today yet the more we study it, it seems the less we know. I'm not trying to appeal to ignorance here, in fact I'm saying the opposite. Ignorance of what god's methodology is offers neither a reason to believe or not to believe. 

God is interested in us, not our education. That is why he draws us to him. That is why when primitive man, felt a need to understand why they could feel wind but not see it, they instinctively knew something else was present, from there they began realizing god concepts forming in their minds. For a god who desires his creation to trust in him it would makes sense for him to allow the things of nature to lead people to him without having to fully unveil himself.

RickeyHoltsclaw

Atheism is blatant idi-ocy and you cannot rationalize with, communicate with, an individual who is mentally and spiritually dead to Truth.

Factfinder

Joeseph said:

WHAT A " FABULOUS " ARGUMENT GOD EXISTS PROVE ME WRONG .......

GODS LOVING NATURE CANNOT BE DENIED , HE WATCHED HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE GET GASSED TO.DEATH BECAUSE HE LOVES THEM........



I WONDER WHY THIS LOVING GOD THINKS BABIES SHOULD BE INFLICTED WITH HORRENDOUS DISEASES?

MAYBE ITS PART OF HIS GRAND PLAN?


LETS LOOK AT THE " GRANDEUR " OF GODS  NATURE .....

I understand your point and it is a legitimate one. I do not claim to have all the answers but I do know disasters and atrocities have been around since Adam and Eve. God through his word has allowed this to go on and even instigated it at times for his purposes. I can say it's the price of sin being in the world but that will have little meaning to someone who doesn't believe. All people (theists and atheists alike) have to recognize they do not know everything, I simply must say I do not know the answer to your point of contention in terms you would accept as a nonbeliever. Not saying I would lie, just saying my reasons for not feeling the way about these things as you do are from a believer's perspective and will be of no value to you.

When I read the bible with an open mind I fell in love with its precepts and the idea of a perfect balance of justice and love that the lord had scribed in the manuscripts. And a huge part of this perfect benevolence is the repeated promises that things won't always be this way and justice will prevail. As in the book of job, all injustices will be recompensed. I believe god created the world so why not take this on faith according to his word and calming spirit within myself when I meditate on the scriptures.

maxx

The thing about this is every single religion claims to be the only truth,  and point at their books as proof; regardless that all religions can be traced back to one or two religions. Ifvyou were born in another country,  i no doubt you would have different religions views and ideas based upon what you learned and you would just as steadfastly adhere to your ideals and state all other religions as false. My point of view, it would be better to sift through all religions and adhere to the underlying ideals that are essential to them all.
@Factfinder

Factfinder

@maxx

In relation to what you bring up about all religions possibly being traced back to a single one or two I believe that might be possible if we put the effort into tracing them from an objective perspective. In my heart I believe that would probably be because only one god is truly drawing us towards him. 

The inner desire to understand our significance and be purposeful expresses itself in different way as various cultures arise and evolve. I believe had I grown up in another country my mind would still have been open to the concept that there is more to life then meets the eye. And that's where god meets us, that seemingly innate knowledge we all experience from time to time that life is more than just survival, because if that is all life is about failure rate is 100%. If life is not about anything at all why do we have such a hard time accepting that? 

21CenturyIconoclast

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NEXT?



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Factfinder

@21CenturyIconoclast

Obviously as characters in both those books exist in at the very least products of imagination I'd say one has played a significantly much larger role of prominence in shaping and organizing societies. And our currency doesn't say "in spider man we trust" so that leaves the other book as the best option for truthful revelation.   

maxx

I was meaning that in another country, your religion would be different and you would be saying the exact thing in reverse. If I were to seek a person al God, it would be based upon morals, values and the way a person lives and conduct s one self, rather than having to jump through hoops to get into a heaven afterwards . Another thing, is that regardless of what religion it is, it is their beliefs that constitutes their proof. @Factfinder

mpaul73

Joeseph said:

WHAT A " FABULOUS " ARGUMENT GOD EXISTS PROVE ME WRONG .......

GODS LOVING NATURE CANNOT BE DENIED , HE WATCHED HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE GET GASSED TO.DEATH BECAUSE HE LOVES THEM........



I WONDER WHY THIS LOVING GOD THINKS BABIES SHOULD BE INFLICTED WITH HORRENDOUS DISEASES?

MAYBE ITS PART OF HIS GRAND PLAN?


LETS LOOK AT THE " GRANDEUR " OF GODS  NATURE .....

Give me a REASON why your worldview has any moral complaint for disease or natural disasters or suffering in this world? If we are all here by chance and there is no meaning to life, so what?

Factfinder

maxx said:

I was meaning that in another country, your religion would be different and you would be saying the exact thing in reverse. If I were to seek a person al God, it would be based upon morals, values and the way a person lives and conduct s one self, rather than having to jump through hoops to get into a heaven after words. @Factfinder

You mean I wouldn't trust the bible but rather other writings? That is likely true but my point was if it's one god calling us it will reach us where we are through words of scribes from the particular culture.

It's not really about jumping through hoops to avoid some place, it's about how we confine ourselves and miss out when we are cynical of what we don't comprehend. One can be invited to an opportunity of a life time but they can not take advantage of it till they go.

Mimicking good behavior never seems to bring contentment. Have you ever noticed that? No I believe that gut feeling we get is trying to tell us something is out there and/or around here.

Joeseph

@mpaul73

Give me a REASON why your worldview has any moral complaint for disease or natural disasters or suffering in this world?

But I don't have a complaint I accept its a natural world and not predictable is so many ways , so what " moral complaint " do you think I have?

 If we are all here by chance and there is no meaning to life, so what?

Why is there no meaning without a god? My life has been great so far with plenty of meaning .

Joeseph

@Factfinder

I understand your point and it is a legitimate one. I do not claim to have all the answers but I do know disasters and atrocities have been around since Adam and Eve. God through his word has allowed this to go on and even instigated it at times for his purposes. I can say it's the price of sin being in the world but that will have little meaning to someone who doesn't believe. All people (theists and atheists alike) have to recognize they do not know everything, I simply must say I do not know the answer to your point of contention in terms you would accept as a nonbeliever. Not saying I would lie, just saying my reasons for not feeling the way about these things as you do are from a believer's perspective and will be of no value to you.

That's an entirely fair and open piece and I've no truck with with a believer  like yourself actually believers like yourself are  welcome in my company any time.

When I read the bible with an open mind I fell in love with its precepts and the idea of a perfect balance of justice and love that the lord had scribed in the manuscripts. And a huge part of this perfect benevolence is the repeated promises that things won't always be this way and justice will prevail. As in the book of job, all injustices will be recompensed. I believe god created the world so why not take this on faith according to his word and calming spirit within myself when I meditate on the scriptures.

I would never attempt to take that source of comfort from you I never cross swords with believers such as yourself , continued happiness to you and yours.

maxx

Let me try it this way. Every religion can't point at their books, explain this chapter, that verse, show certain personnel all day long, and that is not proof. It is a person's beliefs that makes the decision if it is true. So, there is no way for anyone of any religion to be able to prove God by their books and what they state in them, for a person his self decides if it is true or not simply as to what their beliefs are as to where they are and what religion they were exposed to.@Factfinder

Factfinder

@maxx

I'm just saying the text in different religions can be simply god reaching out to people where they are. Where a Muslim is or a Hindu is and so on. People may have different axioms in their circumstances that require a different interpretation of gods revelation then the ones say I'm under here. And it is possible some religions aren't about realizing god at all they are about serving other agendas. That is probably true. At the end of the day though I believe if someone is open to god he will find a way to reach him or her.

Factfinder

@Joeseph

Thank you Joeseph. You're one of the kindest unbelievers I've come across and hope all goes well with you and yours.

mpaul73

Joeseph said:

@mpaul73

Give me a REASON why your worldview has any moral complaint for disease or natural disasters or suffering in this world?

But I don't have a complaint I accept its a natural world and not predictable is so many ways , so what " moral complaint " do you think I have?

 If we are all here by chance and there is no meaning to life, so what?

Why is there no meaning without a god? My life has been great so far with plenty of meaning .

Correct me if I am wrong, but you challenged the existence of the Christian God by highlighting the existence of evil in the world. This is an age-old challenge that has been addressed countless times. However, a much bigger problem lies with atheists who point out evil in the world but provide no explanation for its existence in a world that lacks an absolute standard for good. Without such a standard, how can we even distinguish evil from good?

As for you saying your life has "meaning" and that its been "great so far", would you agree this is completely subjective? If not by what standard do you decide that it has been "great so far"?

MayCaesar

mpaul73 said:

Give me a REASON why your worldview has any moral complaint for disease or natural disasters or suffering in this world? If we are all here by chance and there is no meaning to life, so what?

What do you mean by it all being here "by chance"? Droughts killing off entire nations do not happen by chance: they happen due to the way the laws of the Universe work. Most crops happen to require regular water supply to flourish, and when deprived of such supply, they die, and the people growing them end up being short on food.

Even the religion you follow did not appear by chance. Religions happen to be incredibly good instruments of control over large populations. The particular religion you are following - Christianity, I assume - has been used to justify many centuries of feudal theocracies in Europe. It is only natural that power struggles between humans must be ruled in favor of those employing the most effective tools.

maxx

Yes, but not your interpretation of god
 Everyonehas their ownbidea of god, regardless of what religion.  Which is why one should look at the underlying theme that all religions have. @Factfinder

21CenturyIconoclast

@just_sayin

Just_sayin, the king of "HEARSAY ACCOUNTINGS!"


1. YOUR QUOTE IN SHOWING YOUR BIBLE IGNORANCE IS IN FULL VIEW AGAIN, THANK YOU!:  "Could God have made a world without evil?  Sure - a robotic world - we can do this in computers now."
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/185624/#Comment_185624

WRONG AGAIN BIBLE FOOL!  No, your brutal serial killer god named Jesus could not make a world without evil, because he made EVIL in the first place, you Bible dunce! 

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create EVIL: I the LORD do all these things.”

2. YOUR QUOTE GOING AGAINST YOUR SERIAL KILLER JESUS AS GOD AGAIN: ".......is also a world without good and love.  Both are the product of free will. "https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/185624/#Comment_185624

You have absolutely no free will, bible dunce as biblically shown below, GET IT?

The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps" (Proverbs 16:9).

JESUS' INSPIRED WORDS STATE SPECIFICALLY: “In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” (Ephesians 1:11) Key word: “PREDESTINED” where Jesus’ Jewish creation as Christians have no free will because Jesus determines in advance to His purpose in what He wants your lives to be, get it Bible dolt?

Just_sayin, seriously, are to vying for RickeyHoltsClaw's position of being the number one Bible Stoopid Fool of this religion forum? LOL!

.

mpaul73

MayCaesar said:

mpaul73 said:

Give me a REASON why your worldview has any moral complaint for disease or natural disasters or suffering in this world? If we are all here by chance and there is no meaning to life, so what?

What do you mean by it all being here "by chance"? Droughts killing off entire nations do not happen by chance: they happen due to the way the laws of the Universe work. Most crops happen to require regular water supply to flourish, and when deprived of such supply, they die, and the people growing them end up being short on food.

Even the religion you follow did not appear by chance. Religions happen to be incredibly good instruments of control over large populations. The particular religion you are following - Christianity, I assume - has been used to justify many centuries of feudal theocracies in Europe. It is only natural that power struggles between humans must be ruled in favor of those employing the most effective tools.

By ‘chance,’ I mean the existence of the universe and life without any design or purpose. In a godless worldview, everything is random and lacks ultimate meaning. God gives life purpose and meaning because He designed it. It’s like the difference between seeing ‘HELP’ written in the sand and random sand patterns caused by the tide. One signifies design, the other randomness.

Factfinder

@maxx

Yes it couldn't hurt. Keeping in mind the underpinning of all religions that declare a god have that in common. Declaring faith in god. Seeking the revelation of god. We may find out no religion had it perfect but god rewards the efforts of earnestly seeking his presence anyway.

21CenturyIconoclast

@just_sayin

Just_sayin, the king of "HEARSAY ACCOUNTINGS!"

YOUR QUOTE IN WHERE IS THERE EVER AN END TO YOUR BIBLE DUMBNESS?!: " And without the hope provided by Christ's resurrection, many would not see justice in this life"

You want the rational thinking Atheist in the 21st century of science and reason to accept your post resurrection facts of the walking zombie Jesus character (Romans 8:11), who can make you live for ever in your 1400 square mile heaven (Revelation 21:16-17) by eating Jesus' flesh (John 6:53-56), drinking his blood (John 6:54), and telepathically telling him that you accept him as your savior so Jesus as god can remove your sins (Romans 10:9) and most importantly, Jesus as god only allows 144,000 JEWISH virgin males into his heaven?! (Revelation 7: 3-8 ).

WAIT! This is the foundation of your serial killer Jesus' resurrection and heaven!  OMG! ...... ROFLOL!!! 

Just_sayin, STOP the comedy act as shown above!  This is the 21st Century, remember?  It is NOT the primitive thinking Bronze and Iron Age biblical era as embarrassingly shown above that you have swallowed "hook, line, and sinker!" ROFLOL!!!

Just_sayin, PLEEEEEESE, the Atheists can only take so much pseudo-christian laughter in one of your posts at at time, as I have shown in being the outcome of your faith, okay?! LOL!

.

RexTheDog01

@Joeseph the grandeur of Gods nature evidence you have provided is not the whole story what meaning does all of the below have for trivial fraction of a grain of sand sized earth or its matters when all of time and space that surrounds earth is merely a floater on the retina of God, with our lives and all past present and futures lives now in scope what meaning does any of it have when compared to the vastness of the space it is contained within, the marvel in it all is that when you look a the grain of sand that is earth under a microscope you find all manner of life going about its business in ways that deify reason, considering this life successfully occupies a rock with a floating molten metal core at its center surrounded by a chaotic madness, there might not in the end be a reason for it but it sure is in its totality a beautiful mess of things and objects one could easily describe as a miracle of existence.  

21CenturyIconoclast

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Rickey, the number one BIBLE FOOL of this Religion Forum,

YOUR QUOTE AGAIN THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MAIN TOPIC!!!: "Atheism is blatant idi-ocy and you cannot rationalize with, communicate with, an individual who is mentally and spiritually dead to Truth."
https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/185665/#Comment_185665

Why don't you just leave this Religion Forum, where you have absolutely no business being here in the first place, that is, if you don't want to make yourself the runaway fool in front of the membership all the time AND in the eyes of your serial killer god Jesus (Hebrews 4:13)?

Stay on topic, if you can, otherwise LEAVE this thread in shame, understood bible dunce?!






.

MayCaesar

mpaul73 said:

By ‘chance,’ I mean the existence of the universe and life without any design or purpose. In a godless worldview, everything is random and lacks ultimate meaning. God gives life purpose and meaning because He designed it. It’s like the difference between seeing ‘HELP’ written in the sand and random sand patterns caused by the tide. One signifies design, the other randomness.

That is not the case. Everything is not random, and you can perform a simple experiment right now to verify that. Take a spoon, hold it in your hand, then let it go. The spoon will fall down. If everything was random, then it could fly in a random direction - yet it will necessarily fall down. The reality has a consistent structure and laws, regardless of whether someone put them there on purpose or they arose naturally.

In your example, too, sand patterns caused by the tide are not random, and there are even scientific papers written on the subject studying said patterns. I think you are confusing "random" with "non-artificial".

Joeseph

@Factfinder

Thanks a lot FF.

Joeseph

@mpaul73

Correct me if I am wrong, but you challenged the existence of the Christian God by highlighting the existence of evil in the world. This is an age-old challenge that has been addressed countless times.

No one has come close to defeating my particular challenge you may try if you wish........your god is apparently a loving god yet everyminute of every day he watches a child being sexually abused and does nothing but watch , is his decision to watch thus " morally goid" ? 

if so tell me how it's ever " morally" god to watch a child being raped when you could easily save it?

 However, a much bigger problem lies with atheists who point out evil in the world but provide no explanation for its existence in a world that lacks an absolute standard for good

I never made that argument stick to what I say not what other Atheists may say  i don't believe in evil all moral judgements are just approval or disapproval 

Without such a standard, how can we even distinguish evil from good?

They apparently manage in heaven where no evil can exist right?

As for you saying your life has "meaning" and that its been "great so far", would you agree this is completely subjective?

Of  course 

 If not by what standard do you decide that it has been "great so far"?

MY personal experience of my life so far has led me to this evalution no one but I have lived my life 

maxx

If I were.  God  , i would not decide who can reach heaven based upon  what religion they are.  As it is, people fight more about what religion is true instead of developing the personal values that they  need. Instead,  i would base  who reaches heaven on the life they lead. I also would have heaven  ready so after a person died, they could enter the kingdom.  I also would not condemn people to hell, i simply would return them back to earth as a newborn to relearn what they needed.  If i lived a highly moralistic life, high values, helped others, created no problems,  yet still  went to hell simply because of a religionous belief,  or none at all, then I wouldconsider thatvto be a lack of morals on gods part, not mine. @Factfinder

mpaul73

MayCaesar said:

mpaul73 said:

By ‘chance,’ I mean the existence of the universe and life without any design or purpose. In a godless worldview, everything is random and lacks ultimate meaning. God gives life purpose and meaning because He designed it. It’s like the difference between seeing ‘HELP’ written in the sand and random sand patterns caused by the tide. One signifies design, the other randomness.

That is not the case. Everything is not random, and you can perform a simple experiment right now to verify that. Take a spoon, hold it in your hand, then let it go. The spoon will fall down. If everything was random, then it could fly in a random direction - yet it will necessarily fall down. The reality has a consistent structure and laws, regardless of whether someone put them there on purpose or they arose naturally.

In your example, too, sand patterns caused by the tide are not random, and there are even scientific papers written on the subject studying said patterns. I think you are confusing "random" with "non-artificial".

Your response conflates randomness with the predictable behavior of natural laws. In a godless universe, there would be no reason for the consistency and reliability of natural laws like gravity. The fact that a spoon falls when dropped indicates an underlying order and design. Without a designer, how do you explain why natural laws are consistent and predictable, rather than random and chaotic?

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

That is not the case. Everything is not random, and you can perform a simple experiment right now to verify that. Take a spoon, hold it in your hand, then let it go. The spoon will fall down. If everything was random, then it could fly in a random direction - yet it will necessarily fall down. The reality has a consistent structure and laws, regardless of whether someone put them there on purpose or they arose naturally.

But aren't you just taking that on faith? I agree there are laws that we observe so naturally if you drop a spoon it will fall to the ground and not randomly go off in different directions. However that doesn't contribute anything of value that can distinguish if the laws arose naturally or if they are part of a sentient beings craftsmanship. So we are back to faith. Odd we come back to that and the bible says we are created for faith. I believe we are the canvas and god is artist but I understand you do not. However is it possible one day you could find out the reason you thought this consistent structure and laws could arise naturally is because you could not detect god supplying the consistency? 

Joeseph

@mpaul73

Without a designer, how do you explain why natural laws are consistent and predictable, rather than random and chaotic?

Will the sun rise in a weeks time on a Thursday if so how do you know? 

Joeseph

@Factfinder

I agree there are laws that we observe so naturally if you drop a spoon it will fall to the ground and not randomly going off in different directions. 

To play devil's advocate I will now pose Humes problem of induction which no one has come close to defeating......No certain ( deductive) or probable arguments can justify the future will resemble the past .

The chances of the spoon taking flight and circling the room are just as likely  as it dropping to the ground there is no rational  justification for either assumption .

mpaul73

@Joeseph

You mentioned that you don’t believe in evil and that all moral judgments are just expressions of approval or disapproval. If that’s the case, then asking me to account for evil in a Christian worldview is inconsistent with your own stated beliefs.

In the Christian worldview, evil is a real and objective reality that we must account for. However, if you believe that there is no objective evil, then your challenge about how a loving God can allow evil loses its force.

You cannot consistently reject the existence of objective evil and then use the concept of evil to challenge the coherence of a worldview that does accept it. So, which is it? If you don’t believe in evil, then your argument against the Christian God based on the existence of evil is moot. If you do believe in evil, then you need to provide a coherent basis for it within your own worldview.

Without an objective standard, what basis do you have for making any moral judgments, including those against the actions (or inactions) of a hypothetical deity? If moral judgments are just subjective opinions, then criticizing God or any being for moral reasons lacks a coherent foundation.

MayCaesar

mpaul73 said:

Your response conflates randomness with the predictable behavior of natural laws. In a godless universe, there would be no reason for the consistency and reliability of natural laws like gravity. The fact that a spoon falls when dropped indicates an underlying order and design. Without a designer, how do you explain why natural laws are consistent and predictable, rather than random and chaotic?

There does not need to be a reason for that: the Universe can just work that way. Just like in your worldview there is no reason for god to exist: it just does. In either case you start at something existence of which has no prior reason, but it does not in any way logically lead to randomness.

In other words, the Universe in the absence of god is not any more random than in its presence.

Factfinder said:

But aren't you just taking that on faith? I agree there are laws that we observe so naturally if you drop a spoon it will fall to the ground and not randomly go off in different directions. However that doesn't contribute anything of value that can distinguish if the laws arose naturally or if they are part of a sentient beings craftsmanship. So we are back to faith. Odd we come back to that and the bible says we are created for faith. I believe we are the canvas and god is artist but I understand you do not. However is it possible one day you could find out the reason you thought this consistent structure and laws could arise naturally is because you could not detect god supplying the consistency? 

It seems to me that the assumption of natural origin of the Universe and the assumption of its intelligent design lead to the same predicament: just like we cannot explain where naturally all the laws of the Universe came from and whether they even exist, we cannot explain what the laws of the Universe that god designed are and whether they exist. From the epistemological perspective, at some point we have to just assume that the Universe has some laws/patterns, otherwise everything is completely chaotic and nothing can be known or studied. And now that we have made this assumption, we can through observations and logical thinking find those patterns and rigorously test them. If something appears to be a law in that it works in all situations it has been tested in, then it is a pretty solid candidate for a law. It is not a 100% established law, but it comes as close to it as it can get.

I should emphasize that my position here is not as much that god does not exist, as that the assumption that it does does not add anything of value to our epistemology. Anything that can be explained through grounding of it in god, can similarly be explained through grounding of it in nature - and everything that we do not have a natural explanation for does not become any clearer if we add god to the picture.

But now we can take the next step and to ask: if the assumption of god's existence does not affect any of our conclusions, then does the claim that god exists even have any meaning? Is it not different from saying that invisible massless unicorns exist? In my view, something exists if and only if it has a measurable effect on reality. If adding god to the picture does not help explain anything, then "god does not exist" is an epistemologically sound statement.

So, to your last question, even if in some sense god actually exists, just hides himself perfectly well from me - then still I will be epistemologically right to say that "god does not exist"! From my perspective he might as well not exist in this scenario. Much like there could be a spider hiding under your bed, but if you never look under your bed, then that spider will have absolutely zero impact on your life, so saying that it is not there does not hurt you in any way.

mpaul73

Joeseph said:

@Factfinder

I agree there are laws that we observe so naturally if you drop a spoon it will fall to the ground and not randomly going off in different directions. 

To play devil's advocate I will now pose Humes problem of induction which no one has come close to defeating......No certain ( deductive) or probable arguments can justify the future will resemble the past .

The chances of the spoon taking flight and circling the room are just as likely  as it dropping to the ground there is no rational  justification for either assumption .

You agree that natural laws are consistent but you mention Hume’s problem of induction questioning why we assume the future will be like the past? This is where the Christian worldview comes in! God’s unchanging nature guarantees that natural laws stay consistent. So, I can account for why the sun will rise next Thursday.

Tell me. Without God, how can you be sure the sun will rise next Thursday or that a spoon will always fall to the ground?

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

I agree our knowledge of physical laws is incomplete. And that we in our life time are not going to know everything and humanity as it exist today will likely never know everything. Winding up in very similar predicaments as you alluded. As a man of faith I will see the situation with differing levels as importance than you might, I think. With your view if I understand you correctly, is if we don't know, we don't know and that's fine, we may find out someday. Where as mine as a believer is if it's not known to us then fine, but that doesn't mean it's not known.

That is a huge stumbling block for sure. On the face of it how can anyone believe and trust a god who seemingly hides from us, clearly an act that raises suspicion not trust? That's fair but I will ask you to try looking from a different perspective if you don't mind. In your spider analogy, "Much like there could be a spider hiding under your bed, but if you never look under your bed, then that spider will have absolutely zero impact on your life, so saying that it is not there does not hurt you in any way." It may be fair to say god doesn't exist cause you don't see it but the fact is the spider is there in your analogy. You just didn't look. So have you looked with an open mind? 

If you're interested just read genesis chapters 2&3 of the bible. Promise it's not that bad of a read if your a literary scholar and used to skilled authors; and it's not my version of the bible says. In short it just explains the reason why god requires a trusting faith. And it seems a logical explanation from a believers point of view. 

As god creates Adam and Eve and places them in the garden he tells Adam to not take the fruit of the tree in the center because it's the knowledge of good and evil and it will kill him. Keep in mind Adam and god are face to face, god is not hiding and being very open. Well adam relays gods warning but lo and behold Eve doesn't believe it and Adam defies god word thus unbelieving of it. I don't know if that helps or not but just think of the spider. If you glance under the bed and move on you really didn't look in earnest. As a believer I take comfort in knowing I checked with a flashlight, that's all. 

mpaul73

i see. no substantive argument(s)

mpaul73

please Lord, open their eyes,