Should Covid-19 Vaccines be Mandated?

Dreamer

Argument Topic: We all have a rough definition of expert in our mind. Here's a dictionary definition.

"

noun

a person who has special skill or knowledge in some particular field; specialist; authority: a language expert."

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/expert

I'd be more worried if the dentist was trying to pull my old fillings due to the false ideology of naturopathy. Did you know some natural dentists actually pull all root canals because of quackery?

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dreamer
If you are arguing that vaccine mandates are good as they protect the health of the community. Then by the same logic that a policy is beneficial if it helps the general health of the community, then why don't we lower the speed limit to four? After all, fewer people will die from car accidents.
Or why don't we install cameras everywhere, including in bathrooms and private living accommodations? After all, this will help prevent murder and potential suicide that would otherwise be concealed, and thus save lives.
It is a person's choice to subscribe to the idea of placing one's own beliefs behind the health of the community. No government should force such a decision like that.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Two false analogies. These scenarios are more different than alike. Vaccines are very cost effective.

@MineSubCraftStarved

Vaccine mandates help the economy and even military. Future soldiers missing too much class from Kraken sub-variant or worse dying weakens our nation's ability to defend it self. Same with future scientists developing technologies to defend against China's and Russia's cyber attacks.

As for lowering the speed limit to four, people need transportation to get to work, school, doctor's appointments, etc. Cameras everywhere would weaken trust and could be exploited. We are in the middle of a pandemic.

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

@MayCaesar

"
noun
a person who has special skill or knowledge in some particular field; specialist; authority: a language expert."

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/expert

I'd be more worried if the dentist was trying to pull my old fillings due to the false ideology of naturopathy. Did you know some natural dentists actually pull all root canals because of quackery?

Okay, we have the definition. Notice that it mentions special skill/knowledge in a particular field; it does not mention an all-around knowledge or expertise. A brilliant astrophysicist can be an awful organic chemist; a brilliant atmospherics scientist may suck at economics and public policy development. Are you aware of this and what do you do to make sure that you only take experts' opinion seriously when they do not go beyond the scope of their expertise? And how do you determine whether they are when you do not know much about their field?

Okay, by your definition, a "natural dentist" is an expert in "natural dentistry". Should you not trust him? How do you figure out that he is a quack, and can you apply the same process in order to determine in general whether an expert is talking nonsense?

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dreamer

Vaccine mandates help the economy and even the military.

A rather slight boost in productivity is not justifiable due to the large legal restrictions placed on people's freedom.

As for lowering the speed limit to four, people need transportation to get to work, school, doctor's appointments, etc.

But isn't this loss of convenience worth it for the tens of thousands of lives saved?

Cameras everywhere would weaken trust

And the government forcing fluids into people's bodies doesn't weaken trust? Huh.

We are in the middle of a pandemic.

All the more reason we should limit the power of government.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Some knowledge and critical thinking is required, I try to find the scientific consensus on the given topic or field and use trusted sources.

@MayCaesar

I know there is a 97% or higher scientific consensus on climate change and evolution. I use trusted sources like sciencebasedmedicine and quackwatch.

I look for certain red flags like a dentist wanting to remove amalgam fillings. Keywords like chiropractor, integrative, complementary, Naturopathy, homeopathic, and many more are all red flags. I also ask questions, like are you vaccinated against covid-19 and flu shot? I also talk about being vaccinated.

I won't go to a doctor/dentist who is anti-vaxx. Same with masks. The last dentist I used wore a surgical mask, insufficient protection so I am now searching for a new dentist right now. I set the bar at a minimum of a k95 mask.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Yes, I agree that vaccine mandates would probably lower trust.

@MineSubCraftStarved

This is the strongest argument you have made yet.

"Of all the preventative treatments ever developed through science- and evidence-based medicine, vaccines have arguably saved more lives, prevented more illness and disability, and in general alleviated more suffering than any single class of treatments or preventative measures throughout history." David Gorski

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/antivaccine-activists-attack-vaccine-mandates/

The benefits seem worth the costs. Right now anti-mandate advocates are pushing for misinformed consent. We have speed limits, stop signs, traffic lights, and many many other limits on our freedom with less justification. Some cities are getting rid of letting police pull people over for minor incidents.

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/17/lawmaker-proposes-barring-minor-traffic-stops-to-combat-driving-while-black-00017757

I'd say there is more justification for vaccine mandates then laws letting people be stopped for minor traffic violations.

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dreamer

The benefits seem worth the costs.

I never denied the health benefits of vaccines. But again, it is a person's choice. If someone wants to shoot themselves in the foot or work at a construction site without safety equipment. The government shouldn't be responsible for one's own lack of due diligence.

We have speed limits, stop signs, traffic lights, and many many other limits on our freedom with less justification.

But such laws should only apply on government roads and government property, rather than private ones. If the government were to mandate vaccines in institutions such as the NIH, I would have no problem with that. But forcing private individuals and businesses to fall under such accommodations is a gross overestimate of a government's power to regulate freedom.

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

@MayCaesar

I know there is a 97% or higher scientific consensus on climate change and evolution. I use trusted sources like sciencebasedmedicine and quackwatch.

I look for certain red flags like a dentist wanting to remove amalgam fillings. Keywords like chiropractor, integrative, complementary, Naturopathy, homeopathic, and many more are all red flags. I also ask questions, like are you vaccinated against covid-19 and flu shot? I also talk about being vaccinated.

I won't go to a doctor/dentist who is anti-vaxx. Same with masks. The last dentist I used wore a surgical mask, insufficient protection so I am now searching for a new dentist right now. I set the bar at a minimum of a k95 mask.

See, this is precisely an example of not thinking about the claims you read or write. What does "consensus on climate change" imply? Consensus on what, exactly? It is like saying, "There is 68% consensus on apple pies". It is a meaningless statement. What is the exact claim 97% scientists allegedly subscribe to?
I do know what that claim is (setting aside the glaring problems with that "97%" study people cite nowadays without having ever looked at it), and, chances are, it is much milder than what you expect it is.

How do you determine that these are red flags if you are not an expert? What if a dentist drinking a glass of tequila before the operation does so out of her expertise? You must have a general method in place requiring you to think for yourself.

These are strange requirements... you might be looking for a dentist for a long time.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Climte change exists humans are to blame.

@MayCaesar

""It is unequivocal that human influence has warmed the atmosphere, ocean and land.""

https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/key-takeaways-un-climate-panels-report-2021-08-09/

Here's the original context:

https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg1/resources/spm-headline-statements/

Dreamer

Argument Topic: School vaccine mandates tend to meet less resistance and have greater compliance.

@MineSubCraftStarved

Are you against school vaccine mandates for public schools, private, or both? Remember a private entity can force its student's to vaccinate. Some private entities give bonuses for vaccination. Wawa was at first.

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dreamer

Are you against school vaccine mandates for public schools, private, or both?

I'm against the government forcing private institutions, and thus private schools to adopt vaccine mandates, yes. However, as a member of the electorate, I personally oppose vaccine mandates in schools. But that is ultimately the choice of the government.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: If I understand correctly, the goverment forcing public instutions including schools is okay. Yet, not private schools?

@MineSubCraftStarved

I don't want to put words in your mouth. Have I summarized your position correctly?

MayCaesar

@Dreamer

What does this lazy comment have to do with the post you are responding to?

Dreamer

Argument Topic: I am just trying to get MineSubCratStarved to clarify.

@MayCaesar

I am for public school vaccine mandates. One issue that comes up is public vs private schools. If you read an article about school mandates many do not distinguish between the two adding ambiguity to the mix.

"California has become the first state to announce that it will add this vaccine to its list of the shots required for all school children. And a handful of districts in 14 states are making similar moves, starting with mandates for student-athletes to participate in sports." Anya Kamenetz

https://www.npr.org/2021/11/19/1056568867/should-schools-mandate-covid-vaccine-for-children

I think the article is clear by the statement all school children. Yet, I am not 100% sure. Either way anti-vaxxers are homeschooling their children to avoid mandates.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-07-22/california-homeschool-strict-vaccination-laws

I think this is a step in the correct direction. Keeping vaccinated children safe and separate from unvaccinated. I sure do not want to pay my tax dollars to pay for public schooling for the unvaccinated via misinformed consent.

MayCaesar

@Dreamer

Sorry, I was referring to this comment:

Dreamer said:

@MayCaesar

""It is unequivocal that human influence has warmed the atmosphere, ocean and land.""

https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/key-takeaways-un-climate-panels-report-2021-08-09/

Here's the original context:
https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg1/resources/spm-headline-statements/

ZeusAres42

Dreamer said:

@MayCaesar

I agree that they are no experts on morals. If you read Richard Dawkins' book the God Delusion everyone is pretty good at morals. The problem is we lack the knowledge, dunning-Kruger effect and various other biases get in the way. Religion is just one huge example of confirmation bias.

If anything I've found debating people it is scientific facts that people find subjective when they should not. Data lead us to conclusions. False data, misinformation leads to faulty conclusions. Information leads to correct. With the Internet we have lots of data, but little information.

We need experts to tell us what the scientific facts are. This is the weakest point of science and that's why Big Tobacco, Big Fossil Fuel, and more use disinformation to attack the science, scientists, and policies.

With the 1,000 hours of experience claim, I did say it depends upon the subject. Second, 1,000 hours of experience doesn't include studying. Take the example of a doctor. Only the time in the field after graduating from medical school would count.

@Dreamer

If your argument is to do with policy prescriptions based on the best scientific evidence available then make sure they are relevant to that only. Ludicrous arguments such as being vaccinated because it is racist if you don't do not have any scientific grounding whatsoever; this is nothing more than your opinion, and an opinion that lacks both logical and factual inference.

I myself am for vaccination to a point. There was a time when I would have said that vaccination perhaps not got mandated but at least made it harder for people to do certain things unless they were vaccinated; thankfully this was done across the globe, and rightly so. This was when the covid virus was most severe and killing people at an unprecedented rate. In addition to the anti-vaxxers and bad-faith actors (for example bad-faith actors like @MayCaesar) a large majority of the people that didn't get vaccinated straight away were educated, intelligent people that were merely just dubious. Thankfully, with more evidence, data, and scientific transparency that changed leading to 10s of millions of people getting vaccinated every month. Of course, some people were just getting vaccinated reluctantly or they wouldn't be able to travel but that was not the case with many, and these were not necessarily the more informed among us on immunization.

Thankfully, as a result of the vaccination we managed to achieve herd immunity, and as a result, Covid is now being treated in most places across the globe as Flu as the virus was mutated to a weaker strain. This was thanks to both the vaccinations and people already having the virus. Now, as virology tells us it's not in the best interest of the virus to kill all of its hosts as soon as possible (us being the hosts) or it doesn't survive itself; a virus needs to get weaker so it can spread more easily so as to survive. A virus needs a host to survive and hence the weaker mutations. Weaker mutations would have occurred anyway without vaccinations but that would have taken several years. And as any medic (and you can test this by asking multiple medics if you want) will tell you the quickest way to achieve herd immunity is through vaccination.

Now, it appears that herd immunity has been achieved and I see no reason for any mandates. However, I would still strongly urge that the elderly and vulnerable get vaccinated.

What I am against is silly arguments about racism that play ultimately into the hands of bad-faith actors like @MayCaesar who appear to be hellbent on spreading scientific misinformation. Their reason for doing this might have something to do with some kind of psychological cognitive dissonance or could be more sinister. Either, it doesn't help with public perception and doesn't help people better make more informed decisions.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Hmmm, interesting, I read your entire comment. Do you have any sources that we have achieved herd immunity for covid-19?

@ZeusAres42

Thank you for the detailed reply. I am going to talk less about race and covid-19. That was more of a discussion for 2020-2021. My information was obsolete.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Did you know that all 50 states currently require school children to be vaccinated against several diseases?

@MineSubCraftStarved

"All 50 states currently require schoolchildren to be immunized for polio, MMR (measles, mumps and rubella), Tdap (tetanus, diphtheria, pertussis), and varicella."

https://www.npr.org/2021/11/19/1056568867/should-schools-mandate-covid-vaccine-for-children

Hi, MineSubCraftStarved

Beautiful day today. I loving this spring weather. How have you been?

MichaelElpers

@ZeusAres42

We have not achieved herd immunity from Covid. In fact vaccine itself doesnt even provide full immunity.

ZeusAres42

MichaelElpers said:

@ZeusAres42

We have not achieved herd immunity from Covid. In fact vaccine itself doesnt even provide full immunity.

This is a clear reflection of a person that does not understand what herd immunity is lmao. This guy appears to think that vaccines are supposed to give complete immunity to a single individual, and that is what means and leads to herd immunity. Wow!

MichaelElpers

@ZeusAres42

First off thats not what i said. Second id like to see your source which says we achieved herd immunity.

Herd immunity means enough people are immune to the disease that a disease is nearly effectively erradicated because it cannot effectively spread.

What im saying is its Pretty hard to achieve that with covid when the vaccine cant even provide full immunity or spread to those who have gotten it.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Vaccines never give 100% immunity. 97% is the highest I've seen.

"Two doses of MMR vaccine are 97% effective against measles and 88% effective against mumps."

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/mmr/public/index.html

Yet, this is effective enough to achieve herd immunity. Herd immunity is when the r0 value is less than 1. The virus on average infects less and less people over time.

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dreamer

I don't want to put words in your mouth. Have I summarized your position correctly?

I don't think that forcing children in government schools to take a vaccine is okay, but I think it should be allowed under the rights of the government.
However, this shouldn't spread to other private institutions, whether they be schools or other facilities.
Do you concede that the government has no say in forcing private businesses or individuals to accept vaccine mandates?

"All 50 states currently require schoolchildren to be immunized for polio, MMR (measles, mumps, and rubella), Tdap (tetanus, diphtheria, pertussis), and varicella."

And in many states children can be exempted from their parents from school. Such as Amish parents being allowed to do so in Wisconsin v. Yoder. I have no problem with the legality of public schools forcing vaccines as long as they don't enforce the same measures on private schools. And they also don't force children into public schools without the consent of their parents.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Hmmm interesting, are you aware that vaccinate mandate state laws increase vaccination rates?

MineSubCraftStarved

"Public health advocates have lauded the law’s success. In the first year the law was in place, the state’s kindergarten vaccination rate shot up above 95% for the first time in a decade."

By Soumya Karlamangla

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-07-22/california-homeschool-strict-vaccination-laws

"5. Since 1979, Mississippi has banned religious and personal belief exemptions to school vaccine mandates, and the state has the highest rate of childhood vaccinations in the U.S."

https://www.npr.org/2021/11/19/1056568867/should-schools-mandate-covid-vaccine-for-children

Does this change your mind?

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Hmmm interesting, are you aware that vaccinate mandate state laws increase vaccination rates?

@MineSubCraftStarved

"Public health advocates have lauded the law’s success. In the first year the law was in place, the state’s kindergarten vaccination rate shot up above 95% for the first time in a decade." Soumya Karlamangla

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-07-22/california-homeschool-strict-vaccination-laws

"5. Since 1979, Mississippi has banned religious and personal belief exemptions to school vaccine mandates, and the state has the highest rate of childhood vaccinations in the U.S." Anya Kamenetz

https://www.npr.org/2021/11/19/1056568867/should-schools-mandate-covid-vaccine-for-children

Does this influence your stance?

Dreamer

Argument Topic: We need vaccine mandates because of inertia, forgetfulness, and the path of least resistance.

Most anti-vaxxers are just hesitant. Nothing works against the hardcore deniers. Yet, vaccine mandates help get the forgetful to get their vaccines.

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dreamer

Does this influence your stance?

No, it doesn't.
Please address my argument.

ZeusAres42

Dreamer said:

@ZeusAres42

Thank you for the detailed reply. I am going to talk less about race and covid-19. That was more of a discussion for 2020-2021. My information was obsolete.

It was, old hat, outdated, and redundant. Hereafter, if this debate site had a much larger audience base I might continue to debate with the flat earthers of this community that are anti-vax, climate change deniers, etc. However, due to a low audience base, it appears to me that all one is trying to do is reason with the stubborn duma$$es on here that think they are smarter and more educated than they are. This is a complete waste of time IMO. Debate is after all a spectator sport, and with a larger audience base there is the probability that you will appeal to at least some people with a modicum of science literacy, academic background, and critical reasoning skills.

And having said that you need to know your own subject well. And to say that people are anti-vax because they are racist is the most ludicrous assumption I have ever come across. Why tf would a plethora or people put their own lives at risk to kill off a load of other people; what, are antivaxxers matres now? A whole load of people don't get vaccinated for a variety of reasons and among them are laziness (people that just don't care), Religion, fear based on ill information, etc.

Sorry for my anger but these comments are silly and make it so much easier for the trolls, and bad-faith actors which in turn makes it a lot harder to try to educate the average joe blogs of our society where there might be otherwise a slim chance they could be persuaded on the positives of vaccination (AKA one of the most substantiated forms of medical treatment in the medical literature). Sorry, but that is some kind of far-left extremism and I am not even a Conservative.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: We give far too much respect to religion.

@MineSubCraftStarved

What is about religion that makes us defer? Why do the Amish get to stop schooling their children after 8th grade, Wisconsin v. Yoder, on religious grounds? The whole point of the new atheist movement is too much religious tolerance and respect. That atheists should be more intolerant.

"Whatever criticisms I may have had for prominent atheists like Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris otherwise, one area that I'm totally down with both of them on is their criticism of the undue respect and consideration we as a society give to religious ideas. This consideration is rarely, if ever, based on the merit of the ideas, but rather solely because they are religious ideas. Many of these ideas, if they were not based on religion, wouldn't be given anywhere near the respect or deference that they are now. But, because they are based on a faith in the supernatural, for some reason we as a society tend to bend over backwards to show them "respect," whether they deserve it or not, and accommodate those who hold them. One area where this is especially true is in the area of vaccines and religious exemptions." By oracknows on October 18, 2007.

https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/10/18/using-religion-to-avoid-vaccination-revi

Haven't we seen enough harm done in the name of God(s)? Medicine and religion do not mix. People are lying about their religion to get religious vaccine exemptions.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Hmmm, do you have any other websites you recommend to debate on?

@ZeusAres42

I am considering just protesting in person with a sign that says vaccines save lives on one side and vaccine mandates now on the other. I agree with much of what you have said.

As for racists, there are KKK members and people holding confederate flags protesting vaccines, masks, and mandates. I think it is generally accepted they have become a totalitarian death cult. Anti-vaxxers use the motte and bailey fallacy. White nationalists have been known to dog whistle.

That at the beginning of the pandemic Blacks and American Indians were dying about 3x the rate. This is due to healthcare disparities and inequities. Racial bias in pulse oximeters for example. As well as a higher percentage in high risk essential worker jobs.Black owned businesses were hit very hard in the beginning of the pandemic.

I only took the next logically jump which I agree with you I took too far. I agree I don't have the evidence to suggest the white nationalists are deliberately martyring their-selves because it will harm Black people more.

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

Most anti-vaxxers are just hesitant. Nothing works against the hardcore deniers. Yet, vaccine mandates help get the forgetful to get their vaccines.

This is typical authoritarianism. You want to impose your values on others, and if they disagree, then you are okay with using force against them. Note that "anti-vaxxers" do not do that: they do not want to force other people to not get vaccinated, whatever their motivations are.

It is cute how the people with the morals of a high school bully genuinely see themselves as having a higher ground than all these "deniers" and "ignoramuses". They will hate the idea of a random Texas redneck having a gun at a shooting rage, but be absolutly fine with a government-endorse thug pointing a gun at that redneck and marching him to the nearby vaccination point.

In this country once a group of intellectuals stood up against the greatest empire in human history, because even that empire intruded into people's lives too much. They would shudder at the thought that 250 years later hundreds of millions of the US residents would bend over to authoritarians 100 times worse than the British monarchs of the time were.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: What are you talking about?

@MayCaesar

"but be absolutly fine with a government-endorse thug pointing a gun at that redneck and marching him to the nearby vaccination point." MayCaesar

Vaccine mandates are nothing like this. For example without a vaccine a child cannot play on a sports team.

MayCaesar

@Dreamer

That is what it comes down to. If I go about my day as usual without having been vaccinated, then I will violate the law and be legally punished for it. And if I do not comply with the requirements of the punishment, guess what is going to happen?

That is what every legal restriction ultimately comes down to: "Do as we say or face the point of the gun". That facing the point of the gun may be separated from the action by a few layers in the stack of laws is an irrelevant technicality.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: I don't think they are going to point a gun at an unvaccinated child who tries to be on a sports team anyways.

@MayCaesar

I think instead they might send the child to the principal's office or detention, not a gun sheesh.

ZeusAres42

Dreamer said:

@ZeusAres42

Argument Topic: Hmmm, do you have any other websites you recommend to debate on?

I sometimes use a discord server now. It's called Philosophy and Politics. Brilliant server and the people there make the people here look like elementary kids! Then again a lot of the people here are quite good at making themselves look foolish all by themselves. There used to a couple of great debators here and among them were Happy_Kill_bot and Plaff; very smart people with very apparent academic backgrounds and scientific literacy, and very well politically informed, and that discord server is like whole bunch of them there xd. Not many people like that on this site now I am afraid. You will learn something there a lot quicker and a lot more IMO. Here, most days, you're just getting into debates with people and their zombie arguments. I can DM you the link if you want.

@Dreamer

ZeusAres42

Dreamer said:

@MayCaesar

Argument Topic: I don't think they are going to point a gun at an unvaccinated child who tries to be on a sports team anyways.

I think instead they might send the child to the principal's office or detention, not a gun sheesh.

This was May's attempt at what's called reductio ad absurdum. This is Latin and means to reduce one's argument to the absurd. https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Reductio-ad-Absurdum

However, he made the mistake of appealing to extremes.

Image: https://i.gyazo.com/8cc2c7f2109f7f4110648518d5319291.png

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-to-Extremes

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

@MayCaesar

I think instead they might send the child to the principal's office or detention, not a gun sheesh.

What do you think they will do to the parent who refuses to abide by this and resists all attempts of the law enforcement to compel him to or take his child away from him?

Every single law is ultimately enforced at a gunpoint. Something that is not enforced at a gunpoint at the end of the legal chain is not a law, but a recommendation. A recommendation cannot be a mandate and vice versa. If I face no legal repercussions for not getting my child vaccinated and not having him do anything that vaccinated kids do not have to do, then and only then is the mandate not enforced at a gunpoint - but in that case we are no longer talking about a mandate.

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dreamer

What is about religion that makes us defer?

I'm not talking about religion really. I'm talking about privacy and personal autonomy, and the infringement of that by vaccines.

Why do the Amish get to stop schooling their children after 8th grade, Wisconsin v. Yoder, on religious grounds?

Because the state should not get to force children into schools against the wishes of their parents or guardian. Especially when it conflicts with their religion.

The whole point of the new atheist movement is too much religious tolerance and respect. That atheists should be more intolerant.

And how exactly will that benefit society as a whole? 7% of the population in America today is atheist. I'd like to see any functioning society where 93% of the population is held in contempt and abused by lack of toleration.

Haven't we seen enough harm done in the name of God(s)?

Sure, much harm has been done in the name of deities, but has not a similar amount of harm, especially as of recent times, been done by oppressively atheist governments? One cannot overlook the effects of religious oppression in China, Cambodia, Germany, Russia, North Korea, Romania and East Germany as nothing short of abusive and deplorable.

Medicine and religion do not mix.

That's not your choice to make for other individuals.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Sure go ahead.

@ZeusAres42

" I can DM you the lintk if you want. " ZuesAres42

I will probably lurk for awhile before posting.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: By the same logic so is jay walking, loitering, and parking illegally.

@MayCaesar

If a bar has a rule that flags people for wearing jeans and a person refuses to at the end of the legal chain if the person continues it is enforced at gun point.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Do you have a source for the 7% atheist number in the United States?

@MineSubCraftStarved

Religion is a bad excuse to deprive a child of education. I don't really know enough about the Amish to make an in-depth conversation. For example, are the Amish home schooled then and are the facilities adequate if they are? Furthermore, there is more than one group of Amish making the question more complex than I am willing to go right now.

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

@MayCaesar

If a bar has a rule that flags people for wearing jeans and a person refuses to at the end of the legal chain if the person continues it is enforced at gun point.

Absolutely correct. All of the things you mentioned are. Private contracts, too, are legally enforceable in all modern systems, therefore they are ultimately enforced at a gunpoint.

The crucial difference, however, is that no one forces you to enter a private contract. If you do not want to abide by the rules of the bar in question and be held at a gunpoint upon stubborn refusal to do so, you are free to not enter the bar and go somewhere else. And if all bars around you have this weird rule and there is a demand for a bar without that rule, you can open your own bar and make a killing.

Government-issued contracts, i.e. laws, are different: I am forced into them against my consent. I do not consent to being held at a gunpoint upon refusal to follow them, yet I am. That is not necessarily a bad thing: there is a case to be made for certain laws to exist, such as laws outlawing murder. However, the essence of the laws must be recognized. At the end of every single law, no matter how insignificant, is an armed goon with the license to shoot you. You do not pay a $1 city parking ticket and ignore/resist ALL followup requests if the government - and you only have two possible outcomes: you get shot by a guy with a badge, or the government gives up at some stage, refusing to enforce the law.

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dreamer

Do you have a source for the 7% atheist number in the United States?

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/6c9yo78fw1/econtoplines.pdf

Religion is a bad excuse to deprive a child of education.

We aren't talking about education or religion, stay on point.

You have failed to respond to any of my arguments now and seem to be pursuing a separate debate topic regarding the validity and benefits of religion. Until you actually address my argument regarding covid vaccine mandates or concede to my position, I likely won't respond to you anymore.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Your the one who brought up Wisconsin v. Yoder.

@MineSubCraftStarved

"Because the state should not get to force children into schools against the wishes of their parents or guardian. Especially when it conflicts with their religion." MineSubCraftStarved

You brought up religion and faith does come up because of religious exemptions to vaccines. We don't allow satanic human sacrifices there are limits on freedom of religion.

"What rash?” They even covered up mirrors so they wouldn’t accidentally see the rash. They refused to acknowledge it because they believed it was their own fault: any sign of illness meant their mind was not right with God.22

Incredibly, measles broke out again in the same school nine years later. There were 247 cases in that one school compared to 934 for the entire country that year.23" Harriett Hall

https://www.skepdoc.info/christianity-can-be-hazardous-to-your-health/

There are cases where the government can take away children from their parents for medical neglect. Meaning there is precedence for local official to interfere when medical treatment is denied.

"When she was nine months old, the courts removed her from her home, put her in foster care, and ordered medical treatment." Hall

Thanks for the link, seems atheism really is that low, but 19% of people say religion isn't important at all.

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dreamer
Kinda forgot about this thread(

) so apologies for the late response.

You brought up religion and faith does come up because of religious exemptions to vaccines.

I brought it up as a subsidiary point towards my argument but not as the actual substance of it. My argument mainly relies on privacy.
I also don't see why we should go about deliberately oppressing religion. Such policies did not bode well for the population in the USSR, China, Romania, or North Korea.

We don't allow satanic human sacrifices there are limits to freedom of religion.

Because it forces itself onto other people. A vaccine doesn't do that, it is purely your own choice and does not directly affect other people(at least through deliberate action, unlike human sacrifice).

Thanks for the link, seems atheism really is that low, but 19% of people say religion isn't important at all.

But they still believe in a religion, and thus by your logic should be discriminated against.
As said previously, good luck ever having a successful government ruled by the 7% against the 93% in today's world.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: No worries I enjoyed taking a break from the forum. :)

@MineSubCraftStarved

I am unfamiliar with the policies oppressing religion in the USSR, Romania, China, and North Korea. Can you elaborate?

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dreamer

I am unfamiliar with the policies oppressing religion in the USSR, Romania, China, and North Korea. Can you elaborate?

There have been many cases involving the systematic oppression of religion in those countries. However, I won't go into detail because this isn't relevant...
Do you still have an argument that vaccine mandates should be instituted or no?

Dreamer

Argument Topic: No more aguments I made my points.

@MineSubCraftStarved

Thank you for the long discussion I recommend you read the below book.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/new-book-anti-vaxxers-how-to-challenge-a-misinformed-movement/

MineSubCraftStarved

@Dreamer
I'll take a look at it, of course.

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