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Americans in Jerusalem Are Helping Kick Out Palestinians. Thoughts?

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Americans in Jerusalem Are Helping Kick Out Palestinians.


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  • @Nomenclature
    The video talks about Palestinians living in Sheikh Jarrah. They are being evicted from there since they are legally squatters on the land, not because they are Arabs. Those with legal permission(including Muslims) are allowed to stay there, but those who don't legally own the property are being evicted as they don't own the land.

    Nomenclature
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @MineSubCraftStarved
     since they are legally squatters on the land

    No they aren't. The Israeli settlements are illegal under international law. When you use the term "legally" you're referring to Israeli domestic law. The video explains this, so either you haven't watched it or -- more likely -- you're deliberately misrepresenting unlawful evictions as legal.

    MineSubCraftStarved
  • @Nomenclature
    No they aren't. The Israeli settlements are illegal under international law.
    These aren't even Israeli settlements. The conflict in Jarrah is between Israeli residents who lived there before the 1948 war and those Arabs who moved into those homes after. Not about settlers.
    When you use the term "legally" you're referring to Israeli domestic law.
    I'm referring to British law and basic human dignity. The Jews there owned the land prior to the Arab-Israeli war of 1948 and were evicted by the Jordanians shortly thereafter. They still have deeds to the property and thus technically own the land. And after Israel reclaimed the territory. Those living there formerly should have every right to reclaim their property and remove the squatters who have no legal right to remain there.
    The video explains this, so either you haven't watched it
    I watched part of it but I already know enough about this specific issue to not watch a 20-minute-long Qatari state propaganda broadcast.
    NomenclatureJulesKorngold
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @MineSubCraftStarved
    These aren't even Israeli settlements. 

    Yes they are. These homes are in occupied east Jerusalem, which was seized illegally by Israel in 1967 and which has been held illegally by Israel ever since. 

    I'm referring to British law 

    What are you even blathering about? Are you high on drugs?

    and basic human dignity.

    Kicking old ladies out of the homes they have lived in since they were children is about "basic human dignity", is it? 

    Christ, you're such a disgusting excuse for a human being. 

  • @Nomenclature
    These homes are in occupied east Jerusalem, which was seized illegally by Israel in 1967 and which has been held illegally by Israel ever since. 
    You ignored the fact that those being evicted are squatters and are simply living in the homes of the Jews who were previously evicted from the area by the Jordanians. They have a legal right to live there, while the Arabs in those homes do not. BTW, Arabs are not being evicted en Mass from Sheik Jarah, most are legally allowed to stay, however, those without proper land deeds should be rightfully evicted.
    The international status of Jerusalem is irrelevant. And even if it did, Jordan recognized Israel's ownership of Jerusalem during the peace accord in the 90's, and thus Israeli ownership of East Jerusalem is NOT illegal by international law.
    Christ, you're such a disgusting excuse for a human being. 
    ... And this is why you lack the capacity for intellectual debate.
    NomenclatureJulesKorngold
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @MineSubCraftStarved
    You ignored the fact 

    I ignored nothing. You denied that they are Israeli settlements, which is objectively untrue. East Jerusalem was seized by Israel in 1967. 

    those being evicted are squatters

    They are not squatters. That is also objectively untrue. 

    and are simply living in the homes of the Jews

    The old lady interviewed in the video has been living in the same home -- her own home -- since childhood. You have told three separate falsehoods in the space of three sentences. I'll not even engage you further because you are a nauseatingly dishonest toad. 

    Edit: And I see you're using your alt account to fist-bump your own false statements. That's your idea of "intellectual debate", is it?  Relentlessly spamming false statements and using your own accounts to agree with yourself?

    You're a horrible person. Truly horrible.

    MineSubCraftStarved
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @MineSubCraftStarved

    New York (20 October 2022) -- There are reasonable grounds to conclude that the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory is now unlawful under international law due to its permanence and the Israeli Government’s de-facto annexation policies, according to the first report to the General Assembly issued today by the United Nations Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and Israel.

    https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/10/commission-inquiry-finds-israeli-occupation-unlawful-under-international-law

    Tell us some more about how the people you stole East Jerusalem from are squatting in their own homes, Nazi.
    MineSubCraftStarved
  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 811 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Narcissistic Debaters Like Nomenclature


    Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a mental health condition characterized by a long-standing pattern of grandiosity, a need for admiration, and a lack of empathy toward others. Individuals with NPD often have an inflated sense of self-importance, believing they are superior to others and deserving of special treatment. They may also have a preoccupation with success, power, beauty, or ideal love.

    People with NPD may display a lack of empathy towards others and a tendency to exploit them for their own gain. They may struggle to recognize or understand the emotions and needs of others, leading to difficulties in forming and maintaining relationships. They may also have fragile self-esteem, which can be easily threatened by criticism or failure.

    Symptoms of NPD may include:

    1. Grandiosity and an exaggerated sense of self-importance
    2. A need for constant admiration and attention
    3. A belief in their own superiority and entitlement to special treatment
    4. A lack of empathy and disregard for the feelings of others
    5. A tendency to exploit others for their own gain
    6. Envy of others or a belief that others are envious of them
    7. Arrogance and a sense of entitlement

    It's important to note that not everyone who displays some of these characteristics has NPD. A diagnosis of NPD requires a professional assessment and evaluation by a mental health professional. Treatment for NPD may involve psychotherapy, medication, or a combination of both. However, people with NPD may be resistant to treatment due to their lack of insight into their own behaviors and their belief that they do not have a problem.
    Nomenclature
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @JulesKorngold

    Spare me your upside down nonsense, you delusional, dishonest, multi-accounting fascist dog.

    Origins of Projection

    Sigmund Freud proposed the idea of defense mechanisms as part of his psychoanalytic theory. A defense mechanism is an unconscious strategy people use to defend the ego against uncomfortable personal characteristics that would cause anxiety if they recognized them consciously.

    Projection may be used as a defense mechanism in any circumstance. People protect their self-esteem by denying characteristics, impulses, or feelings they find threatening while seeing those same characteristics in someone else. Some examples include:

    • A wife is attracted to a male co-worker but can't admit her feelings, so when her husband talks about a female co-worker, she becomes jealous and accuses him of being attracted to the other woman.
    • A man who feels insecure about his masculinity mocks other men for acting like women.
    • An athlete instinctively dislikes a hockey team member, but over time begins to believe their teammate hates them.
    • A woman criticizes her daughter for interrupting her while she's talking, when in fact, she regularly interrupts her daughter.
    • Someone feels guilty for feeling the urge to steal, leading them to suspect that others are planning to take their wallet or other valuables.
    • A young man ignores his own aggressive impulses and instead inaccurately believes his friend has aggressive tendencies.
    • A narcissistic psychopath who tries to justify brutality and theft instead projects those characteristics onto others.
    To indeed be a defense mechanism, projection must be based on Freud's initial conceptualization. Seeing one's undesirable traits in others while denying them in oneself helps an individual defend their ego. Projection defined this way is referred to as defensive or classical projection.

    Like many defense mechanisms, in the short term, projection can be helpful. By denying uncomfortable truths about themselves, people can better cope with their anxieties and maintain their self-esteem.

    However, projection can ultimately become harmful because it can disrupt interpersonal relationships and lead to issues like bullying, jealousy, and victim-blaming. It also may cause the individual to subconsciously create a hostile social world they believe is populated by people who exhibit the traits they dislike most and are least willing to confront in themselves

    Furthermore, studies have shown that frequent use of defensive projection is associated with features related to borderline, narcissistic, histrionic, and psychopathic personality disorders.

  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 811 Pts   -  
    I don't engage st*pid people.  They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. 
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @JulesKorngold
    I don't engage st*pid people
    You reply to at least 50 percent of all posts I write on this site, moron. Your last post was literally titled, "Narcissistic Debaters Like Nomenclature". Go away you disgusting, vindictive psychopath.

  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 811 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Case In Point

    I am not directly engaging this st*pid individual named "Nomenclature".  I am talking about them.  Not to them.  It frustrates them immensely.   ;)
    jack
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @JulesKorngold

    You're literally an imbecile. Go away you lecherous Jew. I welcome you staying away from my debates and only wish that you were being honest.
  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 811 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: See?

    @JulesKorngold

    You're literally an imbecile. Go away you lecherous Jew. I welcome you staying away from my debates and only wish that you were being honest.
    They're frustrated all right.   B)   Resorting to childish insults and antisemitic tropes.
    jack
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @JulesKorngold
    I don't engage st*pid people
    And after I responded, came your accusation:-
    Resorting to childish insults 

    You are a lecherous, absurd, pathologically dishonest Zionist hypocrite who spends all his time projecting his crimes onto other people. Get out of my debate you pathetic creep.

  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 811 Pts   -  
    @JulesKorngold
    You are a lecherous, absurd, pathologically dishonest Zionist hypocrite who spends all his time projecting his crimes onto other people. Get out of my debate you pathetic creep.
    Uh-huh.  Someone is vewy angwy.   :p
    MineSubCraftStarved
  • @Nomenclature
    You denied that they are Israeli settlements, which is objectively untrue.
    Demonstrate how this is the case.
    They aren't demolishing these homes and creating new ones, or expanding the neighborhood. Thus they are not creating their own settlements...
    They are not squatters. That is also objectively untrue. 
    In 1982, the Jewish owners (Sephardic Community Committee and the Knesset Israel Committee) sued the Palestinian families residing in Sheikh Jarrah and demanded their eviction on the basis that they were squatters on the property. The Magistrate Court determined that the Palestinian families could not demonstrate their ownership of the property, but that they enjoyed Protected Tenant Status. As protected tenants, they would be able to continue living on the property as long as they paid rent and maintained the property. This arrangement was agreed upon mutually in an agreement signed by the parties, in which the tenants recognized the trusts’ ownership in exchange for protected tenant status. - https://www.jns.org/sheikh-jarrah-a-legal-background/
    They themselves and the Israelis have determined that they lack a legal claim to the area. Thus they are squatters, and they themselves have admitted so. So your case is mute.
    Those being evicted are done based on the fact that their land was owned by Israelis prior to 1948, and thus they have no legal contract to the land over Israeli law. Rather, most of them were moved in by the Jordanian government.
    Those who have a legal status to stay are allowed to stay, but the tenants mentioned in the AJ video in question are squatters who refuse to pay rent, and thus violate Israeli law.
    The old lady interviewed in the video has been living in the same home -- her own home -- since childhood. You have told three separate falsehoods in the space of three sentences. I'll not even engage you further because you are a nauseatingly dishonest toad. 
    And she has been a squatter in the residence since childhood, so what?
    Edit: And I see you're using your alt account to fist-bump your own false statements. That's your idea of "intellectual debate", is it?  Relentlessly spamming false statements and using your own accounts to agree with yourself?
    You caught me, Jules and I are clearly alts :p.
    Tell us some more about how the people you stole East Jerusalem from are squatting in their own homes. Nazi
    Firstly, East Jerusalem was stolen by the Jordanians during the 1948 war, and even after the 1967 war, assuming that Israel did in fact steal it from Jordan. They signed a peace treaty regarding the validity of Israeli control over Judea and Samaria. The opinion of the international community is irrelevant regarding the legality of the issue if both parties come to peace with the annexation.
    Secondly, you need to demonstrate how the international legality of this issue is relevant in any way, shape, or form.
    As for you calling me a Nazi, all I can say is scr*w you.
    You're a horrible person. Truly horrible.
    Says the one who calls me a nauseatingly dishonest toad, among other insults. You berate every individual you debate with little to no argumentation, you have thus far failed to demonstrate how they have a legal claim to the land, and so your argument is void.
    You also called me, a Jew, a f*cking Nazi. How's that for nauseating?
    NomenclatureJulesKorngold
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @MineSubCraftStarved
    Demonstrate how this is the case.

    No problem, but we both know it's pointless because you would enthusiastically deny the nose on your own face in defence of anything done by fanatical Jewish fascists.

    JERUSALEM (AP) — Jewish settlement construction in Israeli-annexed east Jerusalem has spiked since President Donald Trump took office in 2017, according to official data obtained by The Associated Press.

    The expansion of the settlements in east Jerusalem, which Israel seized along with the West Bank and Gaza in the 1967 Mideast war, threatens to further complicate one of the thorniest issues in the conflict.

    https://apnews.com/article/98e4ad57e0784e05b9fdde2e0ffd7439

    They aren't demolishing these homes and creating new ones

    Yes they are.

    Why is Israel demolishing homes in East Jerusalem?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-58201218
    The Magistrate Court 

    For the third time, get it through your unfathomably thick head that the Israeli courts have no jurisdiction over the land they are giving away because the Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem is COMPLETELY ILLEGAL under international law.  Do you understand what illegal means?

    And she has been a squatter in the residence since childhood

    Your claims are objectively untrue and whenever I explain how and why they are objectively untrue you simply repeat them. It is the Israelis who are the squatters. They have annexed East Jerusalem illegally and hence they are squatting on the land. That is not complicated to understand. The Israelis have no legal right to that land and for you to claim the people they stole the land from are squatting on their own property is frankly beyond my ability to stomach, so you're going onto mute. You literally disgust me. I would spit in your eye if I could.

    MineSubCraftStarved
  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 811 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Me Too

    @Nomenclature said:  ...so you're going onto mute...
    As the "2nd account" he should mute me too.   :p 
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @JulesKorngold

    All I ever see you do on this site is provoke confrontation and act like a spoiled five year old brat who stamps her feet and screams when she can't have her own way. You're a truly loathsome coward who sits in the shadows plotting to try to have other members banned. 
    MineSubCraftStarved
  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 811 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Again

    "Nomenclature" is vewy angwy.   :p
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @JulesKorngold

    I'm not even slightly angry. I just don't like you. You disgust me as a person.
  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 811 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: "Nomenclature's" Muddle-Headed Belief

    He thinks I care if he "likes" me.   :p
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @JulesKorngold
    He thinks I care if he "likes" me.

    No, I was correcting your false statement that I'm angry.

    Lecherous halfwits like you spend all day telling other people what they think and how they feel. It's precisely what makes you such a waste of good carbon.

  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 811 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: "Nomenclature" Believes We Inhale Carbon

    @JulesKorngold
    It's precisely what makes you such a waste of good carbon.
    We do not inhale carbon. We inhale oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide is a waste product that is produced by our cells when they convert food into energy. Oxygen is essential for our cells to function properly.

    He'll probably pretend he was referring to the carbon in human bodies.  Uh-huh.
    NomenclatureMineSubCraftStarved
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 1245 Pts   -  
    @JulesKorngold
    We do not inhale carbon.

    I didn't say we inhale carbon. Do you even understand English?

  • MineSubCraftStarvedMineSubCraftStarved 148 Pts   -   edited March 2023
    @Nomenclature
    fanatical Jewish fascists.
    Apparently, a nation built on escaping fascism and the only democracy in the middle east is somehow a fascistic country itself.
    Tell me, if you call Israel fascist, by the same measure what would you call an authoritarian country like Egypt or Jordan or a country of similar freedom like Greece or Serbia?
    https://apnews.com/article/98e4ad57e0784e05b9fdde2e0ffd7439
    The article doesn't even mention Sheikh Jarrah, read your source next time rather than link dumping.
    Again, show me how the legal issue is the establishment of settlements, rather than land right disputes and squatting.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-58201218
    Once again, you have failed to give even an elementary look at your source. It does not once mention Sheikh Jarrah. Instead, the woman in the video talked about how in Silwan, buildings that were built without permits are being demolished. This isn't a demonstration of Israel destroying Arab homes to create settlements (but rather to enforce common land regulations), nor does it show anything remotely relevant to the debate at hand over Sheikh Jarrah.
    For the third time, get it through your unfathomably thick head that the Israeli courts have no jurisdiction over the land they are giving away because the Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem is COMPLETELY ILLEGAL under international law.  Do you understand what illegal means?
    For the third time, Israel isn't illegally occupying as Jordan already recognized Israeli ownership of Judea and Samaria... You completely ignored this point.
    Furthermore, the international community has no power and thus has no authority over the domestic land rights of any nation. If the UN were to declare one day that the lands taken by the United States in the Mexican-American war were illegal, and thus occupied land. Would US courts suddenly become invalid in those territories? Would they suddenly have no jurisdiction over the land? Of course not, since they control the land and thus can institute any legislation as they please.
    Your claims are objectively untrue and whenever I explain how and why they are objectively untrue you simply repeat them.
    You haven't explained anything, you never have once addressed my actual arguments and only my claim. And even when you do the latter, you complete such in a poor and abusive manner unfit for a serious member of any debate community, including this one.
    It is the Israelis who are the squatters.
    Tell that to the ones who were unjustly evicted in 1948 and whose land was stolen and continues to be stolen by those who moved in.
    They have annexed East Jerusalem illegally and hence they are squatting on the land.
    Firstly, no they aren't, as demonstrated previously.
    Secondly, countries don't follow strict use of land regulations like individuals. You can't accuse Israel of squatting on "Palestinian" land more than Britain on Scottish and Welsh land, or Poland on German land, or Russia on Yakutian and Komi land.
    This isn't a hard concept.
    The Israelis have no legal right to that land and for you to claim the people they stole the land from are squatting on their own property is frankly beyond my ability to stomach,
    It isn't their own property though, as expained previously, those being evicted are individuals that resided in stolen Israeli households and property during and after 1948 and up to 1967. They have no legal right to the land and have no property claims to the land, by any law, either Israeli, British, Ottoman or Jordanian. Thus they're squatters.
    This isn't a problem of settlements as you make it out to be. This is purely a legal issue. As evidenced by the vast majority of Arabs are allowed to remain in the neighborhood, only those without legal standing are being forced to leave.
    You literally disgust me. I would spit in your eye if I could.
    Interesting.
    JulesKorngold
  • BoganBogan 422 Pts   -  
    The only reason why the Arabs want to destroy Israel is because of Islam's own religious Nazism.;   As a mater of fact, if I had to choose between which ideology is worse, Islam or Nazism, I would vote for Islam.    Hitler refused to allow German soldiers to retreat, claiming that wherever a German soldier's boot stepped, that was German land forever.    Islam has had that same sentiment for 1400 years.    Whatever lands were conquered by the armies of Islam, that is Islamic land forever.    And that goes aces for Israel.    Israel is the ancestoral home of Islam's most hated rival, Judaism.     The Muslims conquered it, stuck a dirty great mosque on top of the Second Temple (the Jews most sacred place) and that was their way of saying that they had destroyed Judaism.

    The fact that the Jews came back and recovered their land is absolute anathema to Muslims.     They absolutely hate Israel and they believe it is their religious duty to destroy it.

    Then you get the peculiar people like MSCS who seem to think that being anti everything displays how "smart" they are.     In a display of Olympic level st-upidity they go into bat for their sworn enemies over Israel because they think that this is what "intelligent" far seeing, liberal social progressives should do.     So they take the side of their Muslim enemies, who utterly despise their left wing ideology anyway, just to show how different they are from the "deplorable" herd of ordinary people they look down upon, while they preach equity. 

    Banging on about how terrible the Isralis are for resuming the land of their enemies who are living in Israel is just another ploy by the Israel haters who's primary motivation for acting the way they do is their own narcissism.    


  • PhitePhite 85 Pts   -   edited July 2023
    It would appear that the Israeli government is guilty of executing US soldiers and doing their utmost to sink their ship along with the survivors.  I believe that speaks to their character . . .
  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 811 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: What Are You Talking About?

    @Phite
    Are you referring to the spy ship USS Liberty?

  • BoganBogan 422 Pts   -  
    I don't think that the Israelis are evicting Arab Muslims from Israel, but if they are, so what?     Ethnically cleansing Muslims, who up to now have been the world's most successful and ruthless ethnic cleansers, looks like poetic justice to me.     France better start thinking about ethnically cleaning the Arabs and Africans who infest France right now, and who are burning France to the ground.    Please note, us racists were right all along and we told you so.    The best way to get rid of the Arabs and Africans would be simply to stop their welfare payments.    If you want to integrate into French society, okay, you get the dole.    But if you regard yourself as a Muslim living among the infidels, who you expect to pay your way, then go back to whatever Muslim sheethole you came from, and good riddance.  
  • PhitePhite 85 Pts   -   edited July 2023
    @JulesKorngold

    Oh, were they spying on the Israelis?  What was it the Israelis were hiding?
  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 811 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Wartime

    Phite said:
    @JulesKorngold

    Oh, were they spying on the Israelis?  What was it the Israelis were hiding?
    They were spying on both sides during the Six-Day War.
  • PhitePhite 85 Pts   -   edited July 2023
    @JulesKorngold

    And that was Israel's justification for murdering U.S. military personnel and attempting to sink their ship?  That's no way to treat your number one ally!  What is it the Israelis didn't want the U.S. to hear or see, anyway?   
  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 811 Pts   -  
    Phite said:
    @JulesKorngold

    What is it the Israelis didn't want the U.S. to hear or see, anyway?   
    Israel was fighting a war at the time.  It probably attacked to protect battle plans.
  • BoganBogan 422 Pts   -  
    wiki 

    The USS Liberty incident was an attack on a United States Navy technical research ship (spy ship), USS Liberty, by Israeli Air Force jet fighter aircraft and Israeli Navy motor torpedo boats, on 8 June 1967, during the Six-Day War.[2] The combined air and sea attack killed 34 crew members (naval officers, seamen, two marines, and one civilian NSA employee), wounded 171 crew members, and severely damaged the ship.[3] At the time, the ship was in international waters north of the Sinai Peninsula, about 25.5 nmi (29.3 mi; 47.2 km) northwest from the Egyptian city of Arish.[1][4]

    Israel apologized for the attack, saying that the USS Liberty had been attacked in error after being mistaken for an Egyptian ship.[5] Both the Israeli and U.S. governments conducted inquiries and issued reports that concluded the attack was a mistake due to Israeli confusion about the ship's identity.[6] Others, including survivors of the attack, have rejected these conclusions and maintain that the attack was deliberate.[7][8]

    In May 1968, the Israeli government paid US$3.32 million (equivalent to US$28 million in 2022) to the U.S. government in compensation for the families of the 34 men killed in the attack. In March 1969, Israel paid a further $3.57 million ($28.5 million in 2022) to the men who had been wounded. In December 1980, it agreed to pay $6 million ($21.3 million in 2022) as the final settlement for material damage to Liberty itself plus 13 years of interest.[9]


  • PhitePhite 85 Pts   -   edited July 2023
    Bogan said:

    Both the Israeli and U.S. governments conducted inquiries and issued reports that concluded the attack was a mistake due to Israeli confusion about the ship's identity.


    Mistaken identity?  That was proven to be a lie due to intercepted communications between Israeli pilots and ground control.  And the ship was flying the U.S. flag. 

    So, the question remains: Why did they attack their ally?  And why are so many people inclined to look the other way?
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5970 Pts   -  
    I am all for kicking out people who refuse to live civilly, which, unfortunately, is the case for most of Palestinians, as well as their entire government. Does not apply to all Palestinians, obviously, but those whose only argument for something being theirs is "it historically has been" clearly are not fit to live in a relatively civilized country which is Israel.

    Israel is not Switzerland. In Israel you have ~500 terrorist attacks a year, virtually all of them committed by pro-Palestine terrorists. You live in a place like this - you put your compassion behind raw pragmatism. You do not have to approve of it, but you have to understand it and realize that, were you in the shoes of the Israeli people, you would likely want the same thing done to those who seek to destroy your way of life.

    It is quite sickening seeing Western people sitting on their comfy couches in safer conditions than 99.999% of human population historically has had and teaching those who are living in a perpetual zone compassion. Let us see how much compassion you will have when a few rockets land near your kids' school on a New Year's eve (actual experience of one of my acquaintances from Israel).
  • PhitePhite 85 Pts   -   edited July 2023
    Basically, Israel is the result of one man giving another man another man's country.  That would make me mad as hell.
  • BoganBogan 422 Pts   -  
    @Phite ;    So, the question remains: Why did they attack their ally?  And why are so many people inclined to look the other way?

    I really don't know.   I suspect that it is because  Big Power politics clashed with Israel's imperative need for survival at a time when most political and military pundits at the time confidently predicted that Israel could not possibly win against the Russian supplied Arab forces arraigned against it.     The Israelis probably knew that the Liberty was a US spy ship, and at a time when they were fighting for their existence against passive forces who's intention was to exterminate them, they were in no mood to allow even the USA to spy on them and possibly compromise their desperate and secret operations.     If you are fighting for the very existence of your own nation, and you know exactly what will happen to your daughters, children, and old people if the enemy wins, then allowing even a supposed "ally" like the USA to possibly compromise your operations in support of some advantage in the games the Big Powers play, is not an option.

    Phite quote   Basically, Israel is the result of one man giving another man another man's country.  That would make me mad as hell.

    Then if you are an Arab or a Turk, could you please give Constantinople, Anatolia, and east Cyprus back to the Greeks?     The Arabs could have had a peaceful partition of Israel/Palestine in 1947.    They refused.  Nothing less than the complete Arab Muslim ownership of the land was acceptable to them.    That is still the official policy of most Muslims today.     I find your "logic" about as valid as a professional house burglar angrily complaining about somebody else burglarizing his house.




  • PhitePhite 85 Pts   -   edited July 2023
    @Bogan

    I see.  They knew it was an American ship, but rather than make contact with them to tell them to get out of International waters, they tried to kill everyone aboard and sink their ship.  Why didn't they attempt to make contact with a ship belonging to their ally?  Kind of a declaration of war, huh?  It's like the Israelis said, "Sorry Mr. faithful ally, but we're sure enough that we can't trust you now that we're going to treat you like the enemy and do our best to kill you."

    I find your inclination to side with a foreign entity over the dead U.S. military personnel they murdered an interesting mindset.  Care to explain your upside-down loyalty; it is, after all, illogical.

    On a related note, hasn't Israel been accused of committing a war crime just a couple of days before they murdered the crew of the Liberty?  Something about some Egyptian prisoners . . .

    Here you go:

    Israeli Terrorism - The USS Liberty And Executing Egyptian POWs

    _______________________________

    And here's some stuff that seems to corroborate that theory:

    CNN- Mass grave may strain relations - Sept. 25, 1995

    WRMEA | Telling the truth for more than 30 years - Did Israel's Armed Forces Commit One War Crime to Hide Another?

    The foreign ministry is officially responsible of the POW Case in Egypt – Egyptian POWs

    Oh, and contrary to your idea that the Israelis probably knew that the Liberty was a US spy ship, they've long since declared that it was a case of mistaken identity.  How could you not know that?

  • PhitePhite 85 Pts   -   edited July 2023
    @Bogan

    I see.  They knew it was an American ship, but rather than make contact with them to tell them to get out of International waters, they tried to kill everyone aboard and sink their ship.  Why didn't they attempt to make contact with a ship belonging to their ally?  Kind of a declaration of war, huh?  It's like the Israelis said, "Sorry Mr. faithful ally, but we're sure enough that we can't trust you now that we're going to treat you like the enemy and do our best to kill you."

    I find your inclination to side with a foreign entity over the dead U.S. military personnel they murdered an interesting mindset.  Care to explain your upside-down loyalty; it is, after all, illogical.

    On a related note, hasn't Israel been accused of committing a war crime just a couple of days before they murdered the crew of the Liberty which was just 13 miles away?

    Why yes they were!  Say, you don't suppose they were worried about the U.S. catching them doing what they've been accused of doing, and then . . .  Nah, that's just too crazy.

    Israeli Terrorism - The USS Liberty And Executing Egyptian POWs

    _______________________________

    And here's some stuff that seems to corroborate that theory:

    CNN- Mass grave may strain relations - Sept. 25, 1995

    WRMEA | Telling the truth for more than 30 years - Did Israel's Armed Forces Commit One War Crime to Hide Another?

    The foreign ministry is officially responsible of the POW Case in Egypt – Egyptian POWs

    If you're lucky, this post will be deleted like the last one so that you don't have to answer anything at all.  But that would be the losers end, and I don't think that sits well with you, but it's what you'll have to settle on.

    Now, did the Israelis know that they were destroying U.S. military personnel or not? 
  • PhitePhite 85 Pts   -  
    Ya know, when someone runs from a debate, it means that they know full well what the outcome would have been. 

    And I'm sure okay with that.  Sorry to put you on the spot, but it is, after all, A DEBATE FORUM.

    Let the debate happen and there will be one.  Keep one from happening and you expose the place as one with a sore loser for a moderator.

    Does that qualify as dishonesty?  You bet it does.  It's not smart, but it's your show . . .  That's why it's as slow as it is.

    Enjoy.
  • BoganBogan 422 Pts   -  
    If Americans in Israel are helping to kick out "Palestinians" when good luck to them.    The Arab Muslims have been the worst imperialists for 1400 years and they are just sore because one of the people they kicked off their land came back to reclaim it.    Hey boy!    Do you have white skin?    Well, the Arab Muslims are your self declared enemies.     They came out of Arabia 1400 years ago with an entirely new way of fighting a war which was very effective.    They told their soldiers that anybody who was not a Muslim was fair game, and if they conquored their countries, they could steal anything they wanted, screw every girl they could get their lecherous hands on, and if the got killed fighting for Allah, they got all sorts of rewards in heaven, including 64 virgins they could screw into eternity.    Worked a treat.    They came out of Arabia and they conquored not only the middle east, but all of North Africa, part of Spain, part of Italy and sardinia, they almost got Malta, they moved on the Balkans and got to the gates of Vienna twice.     

    Their prophet and their holy book says that making war on infidels and turning them into Muslims is their sacred, holy duty.      Would you like me to explain to you why the Muslims are so radical nd why ISIS got going?    Well, it is like this.   The Muslims are flabbergasted that they, the chosen race, have become so backward, when they were once the leading power in the world.    Their holy men have told them that the reason Allah has forsaken them is becasue they are not doing things the old way.    They are not killing infidels and taking their land, screwing their women and making the kids Muslims.    And, they have not destroyed Allah's primary enemy, the Jews.    So if you do have white skin, why on earth you are going into bat for the people who want to kill you if they only had the chance is beyond me.

    The Koran and the prophet not only sanction religious imperialism and genocide, it is obligatory in the Islamic religion as a sacred duty.   
  • PhitePhite 85 Pts   -   edited July 2023
    @Bogan

    You forgot to explain your rationale for siding with a foreign power over the dead U.S. military personnel they murdered. You're only being asked to explain your upside-down loyalty.  You might start by coming up with a legitimate explanation as to why the Israelis didn't attempt to make contact with the ship belonging to their ally?

    You do understand what constitutes an act of war, don't you?  

    On a related note, hasn't Israel been accused of committing a war crime just a couple days before they murdered the crew of the Liberty?  Wasn't the USS Liberty just 13 miles from where that incident took place? 
  • BoganBogan 422 Pts   -  
    .@Phite

     I have no idea why Israel attacked a US spy ship during the 6 day war and killed around 30 US servicemen without the USA declaring war on Israel.     But unlike yourself, I have always had a fascination with history, and I have a good idea how Big Power politics works.    To start with, I was in high school during the six day war and I can tell you with absolute certainty that every western military source or political pundit at the time predicted that Israel would lose the coming war.    There was just no way an impoverished 2 million people could stand up to the armies of 500 million Arabs lavishly equipped with modern Soviet tanks, bombers fighters, and artillery.    The Jews in Israel, many of whom had survived the holocaust and who knew what would happen to them and their families if they lost, had their backs to the wall.     Their only hope was to strike first and that knowledge was super secret, and so were their operational plans. 

       My opinion, was that they probably warned the USA to keep out of their affairs or they would attack whatever US forces were spying on their plans.     The yanks ignored their warnings and their ship was attacked and around 30 US seamen were killed.     That put the USA, and the armed forces chiefs who must have known about the operation, in a very difficult position.    Israel had probably done what they openly declared that they would do if the USA interfered in their battle plans.    They were warned and they ignored the warning, and 30 US servicemen died because they ignored the warning.   

    But Israel was the USA's only ally in the middle east where the Ivans were doing their utmost to turn the Arabs against the west.    So the US Joint Chiefs of staff downplayed the event, swore the wounded servicemen into secrecy, and awarded the captain of the Liberty (who had behaved with remarkable courage during the attack) the Medal of Honour for services in, (wait for it), Vietnam. Your next question will be, "why did Israel attack it's powerful ally?"    The answer probably is, that Israel's only hope of survival was to attack first and keep their operations secret.    Because of Big Power politics, they did not trust the USA to not sell them out to the Arabs if they thought the yanks could get some advantage to the USA out of it.

        If Israel managed to beat the incredible odds against it's survival and won, they could apologise after the war was over.   And if they lost, it didn't matter anyway.    Two million Israelis would all be dead or dying, or sex slaves.

    Unlike yourself, I have a few brains and I know why you started this topic, and what you are trying to achieve with it.      The only question I had for you was 'what is the colour of your skin?"     Because if you are an Arab or a Muslim, then that explains why you support Islam and why you want to destroy Israel.    It is your religious duty.    You think that if you go into bat for Allah you will get to live forever, all of your sins will be forgiven, you will get to live on the 7th level of paradise, you will be met at the gates of paradise by Allah himself, 64 of your relatives will also be allowed to enter paradise, and you will get to bonk 64 virgins into eternity.   

    However, if you are a Euro then things get interesting.    My opinion is, that you think that opposing Israel and supporting the Muslims is the way to display how "intelligent" you are and how different you are from the "deplorables" you despise.      It is simply a fashion statement.    "Fashion" was invented by merchandisers to show class division, by displaying clothes, cars, houses, and even ways of speaking, which differentiated those that exhibited these traits from the despised lower classes.    It was to use products to display how "superior" such people are from the "herd".    Then somebody got the good idea that political opinion could be used to display fashion and class division.    All the manipulators had to do was to present certain left wing  ideas as those of the elitist class, and every young narcissist who had a compulsive need to think that they were better than everybody else, would man the barricades and chant the mantras in their desire to display their social separation from their inferiors,
  • PhitePhite 85 Pts   -   edited July 2023
    Bogan said:
    .@Phite

    My opinion, was that they probably warned the USA to keep out of their affairs or they would attack whatever US forces were spying on their plans. 

    Because of Big Power politics, they did not trust the USA to not sell them out to the Arabs if they thought the yanks could get some advantage to the USA out of it.


    Your first notion is disproven by the fact that Israel claimed it was a case of mistaken identity (couldn't have been, but that's their story).

    Your second notion is that they didn't trust U.S. to not sell them out, and so they attacked.  That, too, is disproven by the fact that Israel claimed the incident was a case of mistaken identity.  On top of that, you're totally ignoring the fact that attacking the U.S. is an act of war. 

    And on a related note, hasn't Israel been accused of committing a war crime just a couple days before they murdered the crew of the Liberty?  And wasn't the USS Liberty just 13 miles from where that incident took place?  Think there might be some connection between the two incidents? 
  • PhitePhite 85 Pts   -  
    I'm afraid none of that addresses the issue of why you apparently side with a foreign power who attacked a U.S. military vessel and killed part of its crew.  Now, since the Israelis knowingly attacked an American vessel in international waters, what's your rationale for blaming the victims instead of seeing it as an act of war against the United States?  The Israelis said it was a case of mistaken identity.  However, the Liberty's flag was flying.  So, they were lying.  Weren't they?

    And in case you're still in denial about that, here's something from the National Security Agency/Central Security Service:
     

    EXHIBIT | Aug. 4, 2021

    Cold War: U.S.S. Liberty

    The Museum displays the flag that flew at the time of the attack of the U.S.S. Liberty, a U.S. Naval Ship, on June 8, 1967, when the ship found itself in the middle of the 1967 Arab-Israeli Six-Day War. Cruising 25 miles off the Gaza coast, it was attacked by Israeli fighters and torpedo boats at 2 o'clock on a clear and sunny day. There was no apparent provocation, and the reason for the attack has never been fully resolved, although Israel described it as an identification error and sent restitution for the damage and loss of life. The U.S. government accepted the explanation of the Israeli government concerning the identification error. The loss of 34 men was the largest loss of life in a single event in American cryptologic history. It occurred, ironically, during a war in which the United States was not a participant.

    Cold War: U.S.S. Liberty > National Security Agency/Central Security Service > Exhibit View (nsa.gov)


    Oliver Kirby, the NSA's deputy director for operations at the time of the Liberty attack, confirmed the existence of NSA transcripts.

    Asked whether he had personally read such transcripts, Kirby replied, "I sure did. I certainly did."

    "They said, 'We've got him in the zero,'" Kirby recalled, "whatever that meant -- I guess the sights or something. And then one of them said, 'Can you see the flag?' They said 'Yes, it's U.S, it's U.S.' They said it several times, so there wasn't any doubt in anybody's mind that they knew it."

    Asked whether the NSA had in fact intercepted the communications of the Israeli pilots who were attacking the Liberty, Kirby, the retired senior NSA official, replied, "We sure did."

    Kirby, now 86 and retired in Texas, said the transcripts were "something that's bothered me all my life. I'm willing to swear on a stack of Bibles that we knew they knew."
    ___________________________________

    W. Patrick Lang, a retired Army colonel who spent eight years as chief of Middle East intelligence for the Defense Intelligence Agency, said the transcripts were used as "course material" in an advanced class for intelligence officers on the clandestine interception of voice transmissions.

    "The flight leader spoke to his base to report that he had the ship in view, that it was the same ship that he had been briefed on and that it was clearly marked with the U.S. flag," Lang recalled in an e-mail.

    "The flight commander was reluctant," Lang said in a subsequent interview. "That was very clear. He didn't want to do this. He asked them a couple of times, 'Do you really want me to do this?' I've remembered it ever since. It was very striking. I've been harboring this memory for all these years."
    __________________________________


    Now why on earth would you refrain from calling that an act of war against the United States?

    _________________________________________________________________________________________

    From the Chicago Tribune News from 2007:

    Steve Forslund worked as an intelligence analyst for the 544th Air Reconnaissance Technical Wing, then the highest-level strategic planning office in the Air Force had this to say:

    "The ground control station stated that the target was American and for the aircraft to confirm it," Forslund recalled. "The aircraft did confirm the identity of the target as American, by the American flag."

    "The ground control station ordered the aircraft to attack and sink the target and ensure they left no survivors."

    Forslund said he clearly recalled "the obvious frustration of the controller over the inability of the pilots to sink the target quickly and completely."

    "He kept insisting the mission had to sink the target, and was frustrated with the pilots' responses that it didn't sink."

    Nor, Forslund said, was he the only member of his unit to have read the transcripts. "Everybody saw these," said Forslund, now retired after 26 years in the military.

    Statement of Stephen Forslund
    __________________________________________________________________________________

    Forslund's recollections are supported by those of two other Air Force intelligence specialists, working in widely separate locations, who say they also saw the transcripts of the attacking Israeli pilots' communications.

    One is James Gotcher, now an attorney in California, who was then serving with the Air Force Security Service's 6924th Security Squadron, an adjunct of the NSA, at Son Tra, Vietnam.

    "It was clear that the Israeli aircraft were being vectored directly at USS Liberty," Gotcher recalled in an e-mail. "Later, around the time Liberty got off a distress call, the controllers seemed to panic and urged the aircraft to 'complete the job' and get out of there."

    Six thousand miles from Omaha, on the Mediterranean island of Crete, Air Force Capt. Richard Block was commanding an intelligence wing of more than 100 analysts and cryptologists monitoring Middle Eastern communications.

    The transcripts Block remembered seeing "were teletypes, way beyond Top Secret. Some of the pilots did not want to attack," Block said. "The pilots said, 'This is an American ship. Do you still want us to attack?'

    "And ground control came back and said, 'Yes, follow orders.'"

    Gotcher and Forslund agreed with Block that the Jerusalem Post transcript was not at all like what they remember reading.

    "There is simply no way that [the Post transcript is] the same as what I saw," Gotcher said. "More to the point, for anyone familiar with air-to-ground [communications] procedures, that simply isn't the way pilots and controllers communicate."

    Block, now a child protection caseworker in Florida, observed that "the fact that the Israeli pilots clearly identified the ship as American and asked for further instructions from ground control appears to be a missing part of that Jerusalem Post article."

  • PhitePhite 85 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Runners understand the precarious nature of their beliefs.

    Apparently, anyone who challenges the cognitive dissonance in this echo chamber will be deleted even though the truth is right there for them to see.

    You've ruined your site.  You discourage debates.

    From the Chicago Tribune News from 2007:

    Steve Forslund worked as an intelligence analyst for the 544th Air Reconnaissance Technical Wing, then the highest-level strategic planning office in the Air Force had this to say:

    "The ground control station stated that the target was American and for the aircraft to confirm it," Forslund recalled. "The aircraft did confirm the identity of the target as American, by the American flag."

    "The ground control station ordered the aircraft to attack and sink the target and ensure they left no survivors."

    Forslund said he clearly recalled "the obvious frustration of the controller over the inability of the pilots to sink the target quickly and completely."

    "He kept insisting the mission had to sink the target, and was frustrated with the pilots' responses that it didn't sink."

    Nor, Forslund said, was he the only member of his unit to have read the transcripts. "Everybody saw these," said Forslund, now retired after 26 years in the military.

    Statement of Stephen Forslund
    __________________________________________________________________________________

    Forslund's recollections are supported by those of two other Air Force intelligence specialists, working in widely separate locations, who say they also saw the transcripts of the attacking Israeli pilots' communications.

    One is James Gotcher, now an attorney in California, who was then serving with the Air Force Security Service's 6924th Security Squadron, an adjunct of the NSA, at Son Tra, Vietnam.

    "It was clear that the Israeli aircraft were being vectored directly at USS Liberty," Gotcher recalled in an e-mail. "Later, around the time Liberty got off a distress call, the controllers seemed to panic and urged the aircraft to 'complete the job' and get out of there."

    Six thousand miles from Omaha, on the Mediterranean island of Crete, Air Force Capt. Richard Block was commanding an intelligence wing of more than 100 analysts and cryptologists monitoring Middle Eastern communications.

    The transcripts Block remembered seeing "were teletypes, way beyond Top Secret. Some of the pilots did not want to attack," Block said. "The pilots said, 'This is an American ship. Do you still want us to attack?'

    "And ground control came back and said, 'Yes, follow orders.'"

    Gotcher and Forslund agreed with Block that the Jerusalem Post transcript was not at all like what they remember reading.

    "There is simply no way that [the Post transcript is] the same as what I saw," Gotcher said. "More to the point, for anyone familiar with air-to-ground [communications] procedures, that simply isn't the way pilots and controllers communicate."

    Block, now a child protection caseworker in Florida, observed that "the fact that the Israeli pilots clearly identified the ship as American and asked for further instructions from ground control appears to be a missing part of that Jerusalem Post article."
  • PhitePhite 85 Pts   -  
    Of what use is an echo chamber?
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