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Does the Biblical God exist? Possibly.
in Religion

**a thing which you don't know objectively**


I've got a pretty good idea. Enough to not blindly accept atheism as fact.
James Gates

The Beast
https://www.facebook.com/The-Beast-is-Strong-in-This-One-273041423117102/
All of these things will be true in the end according to the Bible.1)Israel exists.2)Egypt exists still but with its former power ceasing to exist.3)Syria exists.4)Damascus exists and is reduced to rubble.5)The beast system emerges. Islam literaly claims to be the beast system in its eschatology, and no one knew this outside the Muslim world until the Internet and 9/11.6)The gospel goes worldwide, and then begins a sharp decline into secularism.7)Homosexuality becomes normal and accepted.8)It is depicted as all manifesting rather rapidly in sequence.God couldn't have handed it to us on a more silver platter, so it might seem.
AceTheCosmo
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Arguments

  • Actually, the Bible doesn't explicitly make any of these claims. Human interpretation of the Bible is how these claims have come to be. As to the proposition, the god of the Bible is logically impossible and cannot exist as described in the Bible. For example, an immortal being cannot die...and yet, Jesus is said to have died. This is incoherent.
    anonymousdebater
  • This is an unresolvable argument that has been debated countless times.
    Even if some guy descended from heaven on a cloud, tomorrow and said. Hi I'm God. 
    Do you think everyone would believe him?
    anonymousdebater
  • MikeMike 90 Pts

    One’s belief in God is a personal reality and is part of the social thread running through most civil societies.

    My thoughts on the subject, “Does the Biblical God exist” will one day, perhaps, science will be able to answer. Until then, we have to wait for science to evolve where unequivocally the answer is indisputable.

    For example, during the seventeenth century, how would one who believes in the existence of radio waves use the scientific tools of the day to empirically demonstrate its existence?    

    Today our elite physicists are spinning over many theories (belief) in “dark matter,” yet they lack the scientific tools to empirically demonstrate which theory is correct, if any.

     In general, we are a product of the physical laws of nature and by the property of omnipotence, trapped within its matrix, there are no exceptions. The constructal flow of humanity through this matrix gave rise to philosophy, the taming of fire, the scientific method, having freedom to seek the path of least resistance in human evolution providing greater access to the pedagogic currents of nature.

    BaconToes
  • @Mike
    Science doesn't draw conclusions about supernatural explanations. Belief in biblical god is based on your own faith. Science can not tell you whether a person created by the imagination of man, is real.
    https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_12

    i fart cows
  • MikeMike 90 Pts
    @BaconToes

    Very true, God is based on faith. As for science relative to “the imagination of man,” it is all about the imagination of man using science to fly, live and breathe under water, walk on the moon, etc. Perhaps, the imagination of man using science will one day unequivocally answer the God question. Until then, it is a leap of faith, or a dialectic, in the development of one’s philosophy   about the origin of this awesome machinery of nature until the evolution of science provides the indisputable incarnation thereof.

    That is, since there is a dispute on said subject, confirms science is yet able to solve the mystery of events before the big bang. There are many theories, and on that note, just another set of beliefs.

  • SkepticalOneSkepticalOne 66 Pts
    edited January 9
    This debate is not about the existence of an ill-defined unknowable god, but the god of the Bible whom much is claimed which science can weigh in on. The Christian god is said to have wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and brimstone, caused a global flood, and the death of many first born as well as a pharaoh and his soldiers. Taking these stories at face value we have a reasonable expectation for evidence such as contemporary records from neighboring civilizations, archaeological evidence, and geological evidence.  (Taking these stories as metaphorical creates other problems, but we'll see if that argument is necessary before I head in that direction)

    What kind of evidence would the destruction Sodom and Gomorrah leave behind? First off, we would expect contemporary writings about the destruction of two cities. In other words, eyewitnesses who tell us about this destruction and what they saw. There are none. The Bible tells us these cities were destroyed with fire and brimstone.

    Genesis 19: 24

    Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven,

    Brimstone is another name for sulfur, and it is quite easy to spot due to its yellow color. So is there evidence for the existence of cities destroyed in this manner? No. Archeologists have been searching for these cities for almost a hundred years and have found no trace of any cities destroyed with brimstone. We’re striking out here – no evidence.


    How about we move on to the Exodus? We would expect to find Egyptian records mentioning the death of a pharaoh or the death of every first born in the land. There are none. We would expect to find a lot of evidence of 600,000 men (well over a million people including women and children) living (and dying) in the desert for 40 years, but again there is no evidence. In fact archaeologists have given up on searching for evidence of such a large group of people ever roaming the Sinai desert.

    “The archeological evidence does not support the story told in the Book of Exodus and most archaeologists have abandoned the investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit"" [1]


    That leaves us with the Flood. If a global flood occurred, what kind of evidence would we expect to find? Well, there would be massive amount of evidence. We would expect to find a relatively recent fossil layer which included modern animals (zebras, lions, tigers, wolves, giraffes, etc.) and modern humans. This fossil layer should be worldwide. In addition to this, we should expect to find a worldwide layer of pebbles, boulders, and sludge moved about by the flood. What do we find? Nothing like this – there is no strata with modern bones and ancient fossils ...and there is no worldwide sludge layer. So again, we have struck out.

    So what about the Christian god who is said to have participated in these events? Three major stories with no evidence they ever happened. We expect to find evidence from S&G, from the Exodus, and most especially from the flood but we do not. God was (said to have been) directly involved in each of these stories. If there stories are false, then it casts serious doubt on the Christian god who is said to have played a critical part in them. Given this lack of evidence for YHWH in general and lack of evidence for the stories he is said to have been involved – I submit the god of the Bible does not exist...at least not as claimed by the Bible.

    When this lack of expected evidence is added to my earlier arguments pointing out the logical impossibility of the Christian god, disbelief (or flat out rejection) of the Christian god is a much more reasonable position than belief based on weak or non-existent evidence. 

    [1] https://books.google.com/books?id=QUSUDgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Pharaoh+of+the+Exodus:+Fairy+tale+or+real+history?&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjY84bzzcnYAhXH61MKHX7lCxkQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=fruitless pursuit&f=false


    EvidenceanonymousdebaterBaconToesPogue
  • MikeMike 90 Pts
    @SkepticalOne

    Thank you for sharing your philosophy on God and science. 

    BaconToes
  • SkepticalOneSkepticalOne 66 Pts
    edited January 9
    Mike said:
    @SkepticalOne

    Thank you for sharing your philosophy on God and science. 

    Likewise, sir.  :)
    BaconToes
  • **a thing which you don't know objectively**


    I've got a pretty good idea. Enough to not blindly accept atheism as fact.
    James Gates

    The Beast
    https://www.facebook.com/The-Beast-is-Strong-in-This-One-273041423117102/
    All of these things will be true in the end according to the Bible.1)Israel exists.2)Egypt exists still but with its former power ceasing to exist.3)Syria exists.4)Damascus exists and is reduced to rubble.5)The beast system emerges. Islam literaly claims to be the beast system in its eschatology, and no one knew this outside the Muslim world until the Internet and 9/11.6)The gospel goes worldwide, and then begins a sharp decline into secularism.7)Homosexuality becomes normal and accepted.8)It is depicted as all manifesting rather rapidly in sequence.God couldn't have handed it to us on a more silver platter, so it might seem.

    @brontoraptor Interesting video with James Gates, which lead me to this other video he was in with Neil D. ,, this one:



    Here are physicists, astrophysicists, and philosophers saying what I have been saying for many years straight out of the Bible, but I guess with no PHD, my voice just don't carry as far and wide as these guys, including the "Blue Brain Project" inventor Henry Markram.

    "Does the Biblical God exist? Possibly."

    Now either I'm crazy, or this sounds just like in those videos where a bunch of physicists, astrophysicists, and philosophers who after having observed all of Edison's inventions all their life, .. read his Biography, would get together and ask "Did Edison exist? Possibly."

    Hmm, .. good question! If physicists, astrophysicists, and philosophers can't figure out if Edison existed or not, they sure as hell won't figure out if Bible God exists or not! Because they don't want to, and you can see that right off the bat in the video I just posted. Degrassee mocks even the idea, hinting for everyone to stay away from the idea of "someone having created this Matrix" .. the idea of a "Creator". 

    Does Biblical God exist? Biblical God, .. the Creator of Heaven and Earth, that God?
    Well according to the Bible, of course He exists. But what kind of proof are we, or are they looking for?
    Like are they looking for the "Creator of all things" that we observe in the physical world, .. that God? Or the one who created the quantum speck that popped out of nothing which got denser and hotter until it exploded in nothing with a Big-Bang (because if something popped out of, or fluctuated out of nothing, would have to remain in nothing, where else would it be?) that god? You know, that Catholic Jesuit god that caused the Big Bang and then evolved into the Evolution theory, because they claim that too was Bible God.



    Or are we talking about the Mormon god Mormo, because they too use the Bible and claim their god is Bible God.

    What I have observed over the years is that these physicists, professors, philosophers actually know THE Infinite Creator exists, and how He created everything, but in these debates they make it sound as if they don't. This is to keep the truth hidden in plain sight, just as they do with the Flat Earth, with planets, .. which is actually a really good one. We can all see the stars, all they did was create a fantastic story and gave us artist rendered caricatures of the stars and we believed them.

    Well they are doing the very opposite with God, they eliminate the most important aspects (if that's the right word?) of God, and when all this other obvious things pop up because of our advancement in understanding physics and computer technology, they go round and round acting all ignorant about it, as if they just couldn't connect the dots.

    Yes, that right there in the videos IS the evidence, not particularly of God Himself, but How  Infinite God created everything. Now all they have to do is admit that "Infinite" is reality, and wham, everyone with basic understanding of science and math terminology like; finite and infinite numbers exist in Infinite.

    Simple logic:
    Once Infinite created Word, or language, it is no longer part of Infinite, yet it is still within Infinite. And through this language (as these physicists, astrophysicists, and philosophers say; this computer language) God is able to create all things through "Word"

    It's all right there, clear as day John 1:1-

    Seriously, let's think about this for a second!? Does anyone actually think that todays physicists, astrophysicists, and philosophers who make their living in keeping the human population in ignorance with their lies like NASA and CERN does, who openly worship the god of this world Lucifer would turn in their credentials, get on their knees in repentance and admit that they have been lying to us since the invention of the word 'science'!? And admit that; "the God of the Bible did create the universe and everything in it, .. and here is how He did it!"

    Mathew 12:26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?


    Eyes2See
  • @SkepticalOne ;
    Jesus is fully God and fully man. This is somewhat confusing, understandably. Since he is fully man, he can die.

    @Fredsnephew
    People would believe him if he performed miracles.
  • @Judaism ;

    Jesus himself said he was God. Paul wasn't the first one to say that.
  • Evidence
  • @Judaism ;

    John 5:18 "For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."
    Luke 22:70 They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?” He replied, “You say that I am.” Then they said, “Why do we need any more testimony? We have heard it from his own lips.”

    In the OT, Daniel 7 mentions  "The Son of Man", which Jesus quotes.
    Evidence
  • @Judaism ;

    I shall address the arguments you made in your documents in order.

    1.1 Think about a shapeshifter in human form. The shapeshifter is human, but unlike regular humans, the shapeshifter is able to change form. Can God come in the form of a rock? Yes, he can, but that was not his goal. Likewise, a shapeshifter can change into any form, but chooses not to. I am not saying that shapeshifters as humans see them exist.

    2.1 First of all, think of the Trinity as water, existing in three states: solid, liquid, and gas. Clearly, while separate entities, they are the same. Revisiting the analogy of the shapeshifter, I can once again say that the characteristics are combined in Jesus. For instance, can a shapeshifter in human form fly? Humans cannot fly, but a shapeshifter can transform into a bird and fly. Likewise, Jesus in human form can access all knowledge, but that would require some "violation" from his human form.

    2.2 I believe Jesus's baptism was an example for others. Mark 10:17-22 says that Jesus said, "No one is good except God alone." or equivalent (depends on the version). See https://www.gotquestions.org/good-God-alone.html Revisiting the analogy of water, I could accurately say there is only one molecule that is pure water. I could also accurately say that ice, liquid water, and steam are all water. They can interact with each other.

    2.3 already addressed earlier, not much to say

    2.4 In other passages, he says he is the I am, in addition to other passages, saying that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.


  • @Judaism ;

    continued...

    2.5 How come one person (Jesus, who is God) dying for another's sin is unbiblical?
    1) Probably referring to heaven and to Jesus's message spreading (after all, New Jerusalem = heaven in Revelation)
    2) Once again, probably reference to heaven, and I do not think those passages are prophecies
    3) Probably gradual rather than instant, finalizing in the second coming and ending of the world
    4) All the dead will rise eventually at the end of the world.
    5) In heaven, eventually

    Also, I could say to follow the laws and say that you should steal to save somebody's life. Jesus's intents are summarized in "Love God and one another". That was the intent of the law. Therefore, Jesus broke the Sabbath to heal.

    Ask me to elaborate on anything that seems insufficient, as this is a quick overview of each segment

    My question to you is: Where is Jesus's body after the cruxifiction?
  • @anonymousdebater

    Interesting response. Instead of actually refuting my arguments, you implement the use of metaphor. I thought Scripture was divine and perfect, that it was absolute truth and that we humans, being subjective as we are, could never find truth without being granted it? Of course, there are problems with this concept, but for the moment, let's pretend it's true.

    Firstly, you use the same old argument Christians have been using for centuries, that the trinity is akin to water, it can take any form yet, still be of the same substance, couldn't an all power G-d not do the same? Why try and limit Him?

    In Judaism, we're not limiting Him, Christians are. Here's why:

    1.) Water cannot be a liquid, solid, and gas all at once. Each time, it changes. If water could actually be all three at once, then this idea could work. According to the trinity creed, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are of the same essence, eternally. They don't change from one substance into another, and they definitely don't change properties. In fact, you've just sided with the heretical cult of Modalism, which taught that G-d manifested Himself as separate entities (i.e., Father, Son, and Holy Ghost), but could never be all three at once. Even then, if liquid, gas, and solid were situated in one place at one time, that still wouldn't help you - because each substance would be it's one entity. The gas occupying the same place as the solid ice cube are not the same! 

    According to the trinity claim, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are equals, they're not separate. The water equation fails to hold this up because each cycle of its transformation is different and has no relation to one another other than being made up of the same molecules. The theory of the trinity is one of mental gymnastics, a perichoresis one. G-d is not a moleular ready to be studied under a microscope to go all out literal! Remember, the solid destroys the gas portion when in transition, the trinity Father does not destroy the Son. Moreover, the trinity concept is one of love, G-d loves his creation, water cannot. G-d is not some form of atom, He is a spirit manifested beyond our highest conceptions. 

    2.) This argument works the same for the shapeshifter. Yes, this being can be a bird and also a human, but can "it" be both at once? Of course not, and this explodes your theory, unless you take the stand that the Son is unequal to the Father, as Jesus himself said, and if you believe the two have nothing to do with each other, which only robs Jesus of his divinity, in that case, Christianity has just shot itself in the foot. . . again.

    3.) You stated G-d's goal wasn't to come in the form of a rock. Firstly, G-d is everything, Kabbalah teaches us that the rock is His lowest form we can interact with, but if He is everything, then why not also be human? Perhaps so, but G-d was careful to make the distinction between human and divinity. 

    4.) You have yet to show me the passages where Jesus actually stated, "I Am." Remeber, this is not what would have been said anyways, furthermore, Jesus didn't know Greek! Neither did you come around to the same words spoken by Judas, so was he too G-d?

    5.) Can you clearly prove to me against the scholarly agreement that the trinity wasn't a byproduct of Nicea? Again, like I said, we have the documentation that they were going over this stuff in heated debate, one would expect that if a religious piece recognized the trinity, it'd be as easy as deciphering between night and day, but notice how that wasn't the case with the trinity.

    6.) Jesus dying for another' mans sins is unbiblical, how do I know this? Just read Exodus 32:30-35, where Moses begs G-d to take his life on behalf of the sinners of Israel. G-d refuses, the sinners will pay for their sins, no one, not even Moses, can take that away from them. Deuteronomy 24:16 echoes this statement that every man shall pay for his sins alone. 

    Read Ezekiel 18:20 or Jeremiah 31:29-30, did any of the prophets believe a person could just offer him or herself as an atonement for the wicked? Really? Furthermore, I challenge you, or any Christian for that matter, to look in those same passages and tell me if you find one hint of a blood atonement. They don't exist, they're not there - G-d requires repentance and true turning from evil rather than the offering of fools (Ecclesiastes 4:17). The prophet Hosea made this point very strongly when he said, "Take words with you and return to Adonai. Say to Him, 'Take away all iniquity; receive us graciously, for we will render for bulls the offering of our lips.'”

    The death of Jesus would either mark the end of Christianity, and his followers weren't about to allow that happen, they wanted to believe that their man had been the Messiah, and so the concept of a resurrected Messiah was born, especially with the aide of Paul. Again, you can reinterpret the Bible at will if you like to suit your needs of death atonement, but just remember, you'd be going against what Adonai said in the Torah in Deuteronomy 24:16, further recall that the Eternal doesn't change His mind, that's the whole message of Malachi 3:6!

    Christians then resort to misquoting the rabbis, I say "misquoting" because these righteous men had no faith in Jesus as Lord, just remember to note that these same Christians refuse to cite the Talmud when the wind blows against their agenda. Talk about deception! 

    Here's a quick example of this in action:

    They cite Moed Katan 28b, B.T., as saying: “The death of the righteous atones.”

    Fine, but the rabbis also said this: “Confession makes atonement.” (Yoma 36b, B.T.)

    Remeber, had a blood offering or the death of the righteous been so important to the ancient Jews, then why were the prophets and the Torah silent on this most bizarre and paramount theological issue?

    Moreover, if I'm right, and one can become righteous through the law, the law of Torah - which is sincere repentance without a death, then Paul was right when he said: "If righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." (Galatians 2:21)

    Some more verses, just food for thought: 

    “I have placed life and death before you, blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live.” (Deuteronomy 30:19)

    “Sin is crouching at the door, it desires you, but you can master it.” (Genesis 4:7)

    “Turn from evil and do good.” (Psalm 37:27)

    "Let the wicked forsake his way and let him return to Adonai." (Isaiah 55:7)

    When a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life." (Ezekiel 18:27)

    If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.” (2 Chronicles 7:14)

    “The sacrifices of G-d are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart.” (Psalm 51:22)

    "The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to Adonai, but the prayer of the upright is His delight." (Proverbs 15:8)

    “I desire kindness and not sacrifices, the knowledge of G-d more than burnt offerings.” (Hosea 6:6)

    “Doing charity and justice is more acceptable to Adonai than sacrifice.” (Proverbs 21:3) Proverbs 10:2 echoes this, King Solomon says, "Charity saves from death."

    “If they return back to you with all their heart and soul in the land of their enemies who took them captive, and pray to you toward the land you gave their ancestors, toward the city you have chosen and the temple I have built for your Name; then from heaven, your dwelling place, hear their prayer and their plea, and uphold their cause. And forgive your people, who have sinned against you.” (1 Kings 8:47-52)

    "Let men call on G-d earnestly that each may turn from his wicked. When G-d saw their (the citizens of Nineveh) deeds; that they turned from their wicked way, then G-d relented concerning the calamity." (Jonah 3:9-10) - I saw no mention of a blood atonement there, did you?

    “And G-d said, "I have forgiven them according to your words.” (Numbers 14:20) - not human sacrifices as Jesus.

    In conclusion, I think its safe to say that no man, not even Jesus, could have ever possibly died for your sins. The Hebrew Bible, the foundation of the New Testament, strictly warns against it.

    7.) You're short remarks (2, 3, 4, and 5) in your last post don't make any sense to me, please elaborate, which points are you referring to in my paper?

    8.) the rabbis said the same as Jesus, just read what Shabbat 31a, B.T. has to say, from the mouth of the great Sage, Hillel to a convert wanting to join the Jewish nation: "That which is hateful unto you do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole of the Torah, The rest is commentary. Go forth and study.” Sound familiar? Don't say the rabbis didn't have wisdom, you don't have to believe in the Talmud, nor the Oral Law (halachic portion from Sinai), just don't claim it's lame of thought.

    9.) You asked a good question, what happened to Jesus' body after the crucifixion? Well, to be frank, I don't know. Who does! What happened to Moses body? Who knows where it is! 

    That, however, doesn't prove Jesus survived either. It's just a loop of circular reasoning, lack of evidence proves the story.

    The real truth is: we don't know. I hope that's somehow satisfying to you. It doesn't really matter if he rose or not because the Torah and even Jesus himself said that miracles aren't proof of anything - they're just a test from G-d. Besides, you'd have to first refute everything I've just stated before we could even begin to consider Jesus as anything more than a guy who walked around in the desert with sandals on his feet preaching to the misfits of his day, 2,000 some years ago.
    BaconToes
  • @Judaism ;

    1) This analogy isn't perfect. Understanding the Trinity, even for Christians, is difficult. See https://www.everystudent.com/forum/trinity.html
    2) See https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/how-can-jesus-be-god-and-man for some explanation. These analogies are imperfect. Jesus being both God and man is more comparable to the soul-body. Humans have a soul and a body, as you stated in another debate. Jesus is both God (spiritual) and man (physical).
    3) There is a difference between a human and a corpse. Likewise, there is a difference between Jesus and humans. Jesus is the soul of God inside a human body.
    4) John 8, 11:25, 14:6
    5) See https://www.gotquestions.org/council-of-Nicea.html
    6) That's only true if Jesus is not God. Recall the analogy of the shapeshifter, I could say "No human can become a bird." However, the shapeshifter in human form can.
    7) addressing the quotes you used as evidence for that section
    8) Okay, Jesus's teaching coincided with other teachings, so...
    9) Mose's body is probably decaying in Mount Nebo, Jordan.
  • @anonymousdebater

    All of your arguments are answered, you can find them in the link below, my latest article on the divinity of Jesus proved false. 

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/17NyJvbWZw-dmGBtpRlCo22xhJa4yUKYFLpe1Qpq2Jl8/@anowakoyu

    P.S., looking forward to your response. Take your time, and please try and answer all the claims listed in the last section. Good luck.
  • anonymousdebater 

    For some reason, the link failed to work, here it is again, if all else fails, I'll have to improvise a little. 

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/17NyJvbWZw-dmGBtpRlCo22xhJa4yUKYFLpe1Qpq2Jl8/edit
    Evidence
  • Judaism said:


    Where in the Bible did Paul make Jesus God?
  • @Judaism ;

    Jesus himself said he was God. Paul wasn't the first one to say that.

    I must be missing something, where did Jesus say: "I am God" or that: "I am God, but my Father is greater than I", .. or that: "I alone am God, and there is none beside me, .. well except my Father, and that other person of us that we call the Holy Spirit!" ??
  • @Judaism ;

    John 5:18 "For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."
    Luke 22:70 They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?” He replied, “You say that I am.” Then they said, “Why do we need any more testimony? We have heard it from his own lips.”

    In the OT, Daniel 7 mentions  "The Son of Man", which Jesus quotes.
    @anonymousdebator - read it again, but with prayer, on a spiritual level not looking at the indoctrinations we been brainwashed with:  “Are you then the Son of God?” He replied, “You say that I am."

    Again, what do you think they asked Jesus? That "Are you God", .. or that "are you the son of God?".
  • @Judaism ;

    1) This analogy isn't perfect. Understanding the Trinity, even for Christians, is difficult. See https://www.everystudent.com/forum/trinity.html
    2) See https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/how-can-jesus-be-god-and-man for some explanation. These analogies are imperfect. Jesus being both God and man is more comparable to the soul-body. Humans have a soul and a body, as you stated in another debate. Jesus is both God (spiritual) and man (physical).
    3) There is a difference between a human and a corpse. Likewise, there is a difference between Jesus and humans. Jesus is the soul of God inside a human body.
    4) John 8, 11:25, 14:6
    5) See https://www.gotquestions.org/council-of-Nicea.html
    6) That's only true if Jesus is not God. Recall the analogy of the shapeshifter, I could say "No human can become a bird." However, the shapeshifter in human form can.
    7) addressing the quotes you used as evidence for that section
    8) Okay, Jesus's teaching coincided with other teachings, so...
    9) Mose's body is probably decaying in Mount Nebo, Jordan.

    @anonymousdebater :
    1) This analogy isn't perfect. Understanding the Trinity, even for Christians, is difficult. See https://www.everystudent.com/forum/trinity.html

    Yes, it is difficult to understand, but it is the foundation of the Christian Religion who worship the plural-gods.
    For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
    You noticed it doesn't say: ".. in all the Christian churches", because the god of the Christian churches IS the author of confusion.

    2) See https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/how-can-jesus-be-god-and-man for some explanation. These analogies are imperfect. Jesus being both God and man is more comparable to the soul-body. Humans have a soul and a body, as you stated in another debate. Jesus is both God (spiritual) and man (physical).

    Yes, now THAT would of been blasphemous for Jesus, being in the flesh to claim he was God. God does NOT have a body,

    Deuteronomy 4:15
     “Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, 16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female,

    3) There is a difference between a human and a corpse. Likewise, there is a difference between Jesus and humans. Jesus is the soul of God inside a human body.

    Where do Christians get this stuff? 

    4) John 8, 11:25, 14:6

    Again, where do you see anywhere here that Jesus is God?

    John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”  27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”


    5) See https://www.gotquestions.org/council-of-Nicea.html
    6) That's only true if Jesus is not God. Recall the analogy of the shapeshifter, I could say "No human can become a bird." However, the shapeshifter in human form can.
    7) addressing the quotes you used as evidence for that section
    8) Okay, Jesus's teaching coincided with other teachings, so...
    9) Mose's body is probably decaying in Mount Nebo, Jordan.

    In other words, Jesus is not God, nor did he ever claim to be.
  • @Evidence ;
    1) People believe something without fully understanding it. Like studies of infinity. Infinity is difficult to fully grasp, yet we can still talk about infinity.
    2) God can have a body if he wants to (incarnation).
    3) That is a bit strange analogy, but it conveys the message.
    4) That passage implicitly, almost explicitly, says that Jesus claims to be God, and he is.
    BaconToes
  • @Judaism ;
    1) It is impossible to understand God fully because of the limitations of our minds. There is one God, that has three forms. To be fair, Genesis 1:1 probably refers to the royal "we". See http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/rogers/ot_trinity.html for evidence of the Trinity in the OT. It's sort of like water in three forms, and how the Sun gives off light heat and radiation all from the same source, but even those analogies are imperfect.
    2) It seems that from your comments that the argument was about the nature of the Trinity, and each person had their own view (one erring towards polytheism, another erring towards monotheism). See https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/john-14-28.html for John 14:28.
    3) See above
    4) See http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/markdroberts/2010/07/did-jesus-speak-greek.html for whether Jesus spoke Greek. Plus, sometimes, Jesus didn't say, "I am". He said, "I am ___" Look up I am statements Jesus, but one is "the way, the truth, the life". Powerful implications, at the least.

    BaconToes
  • @Judaism ;
    6) Yes, God can take away sin, so Jesus took away the sins of the people via his death. See https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/archives/guzik_david/studyguide_isa/isa_53.cfm and http://www.derwoodbiblechurch.org/pastors-blog/2011/8/28/the-compelling-message-of-isaiah-53.html It seems that Deuteronomy 4:2 is similar to the ending of Revelation.
    7) I think it was 2.5
    8) Just Jesus's advice does not prove that he is God, his miracles provide strong evidence, the resurrection probably the pinnacle. So, when the crowd says that he speaks with authority, it probably does not refer to the text itself. I do not understand your point with the Oral Law.
    9) https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/historical-evidence-for-the-resurrection and https://probe.org/ancient-evidence-for-jesus-from-non-christian-sources-2/
    10) If they were wrong, other people would have been happy to point out their error, especially the religious leaders. Everybody knew where his tomb was, didn't they?
    BaconToes
  • @Judaism ;

    1) The current age is a transition age. The Messiah will bring purification, purging, before peace, according to Malachi. God's kingdom is slowly being established in the world through the spread of the Christian church.
    2) Beginning in Isaiah 40 gives the context for Isaiah 53, a new creation and new exodus. Isaiah 53 is a valid prophecy, which has many arguments in itself.
    3) Christians believe in one God. Christians are not polytheists. They believe in a triune God. Isaiah 43:11 says that there are no other gods than the triune God, not banning the possibility of Jesus being God.
    4) All have sinned and are not worthy to enter heaven, so saying that most people will go to hell does not imply that God is evil.

    BaconToes
  • ;anonymousdebater

    See here:

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D0oKph38PDMsc9_cSmUEoKk-fuz7EKdvxfOe8IYK9YM/edit

    I appreciate you determined ethic, you're not giving up - that's good! 
  • @Judaism ;
    Previous arguments were for Point 11
    Arguments for Point 12

    Numbers 23:19 says God does not act like imperfect human beings. 1 Samuel 16:7 says that God does not judge by appearances as most people do. Hosea 11:9 says that God will keep his covenant and not destroy Ephraim, but human beings break covenants.
    I will use the shapeshifter analogy to conclude that he could figure it out if he wanted to, but he did not (like a shapeshifter in human form "unable" to fly) or like a Q who turned off his powers (from Star Trek).
  • You're trying so hard!

    1. Isaiah 43:11 does NOT mention a trinity. You're trying to say to me that Jesus must be "Adonai. . ." where is this coming from, because there is "no savior besides me?" Think of it this way. . . how would Isaiah read this verse? He never knew of a prophet named Jesus. . . a co-creator named Jesus. . . and if so, is he playing deceptive, is Isaiah a child? Does he thinks this funny? If he believed in Jesus why offer us little hints we'd likely miss? WHY NOT JUST SAY THERE'S A CO-CREATOR NAMED JESUS! Why can't G-d, or any of the prophets just write a single sentence? This is ridiculous! Remember, this verse is talking about the G-d Israel bears witness too, not the G-d she bears witness against. 

    2. Can you elaborate a little on Malachi? where does it state what you're claiming, I've never heard of this.

    3. You claim G-d is not evil for sending everyone without Jesus to hell. . . yes He is. . . why can't He just remove sin from all of us as He did with Mary?

    4. Again, we'll get into Isaiah 53 soon, don't jump the horse! 

    See you tomorrow, Shalom.


  • "Numbers 23:19 says God does not act like imperfect human beings. 1 Samuel 16:7 says that God does not judge by appearances as most people do. Hosea 11:9 says that God will keep his covenant and not destroy Ephraim, but human beings break covenants."

    And what's the central point here? All because G-d is not a. . . man.

    That's it, there's nothing more to it, you can't forget to quote the second half of these verses.
  • @Evidence ;
    1) People believe something without fully understanding it. Like studies of infinity. Infinity is difficult to fully grasp, yet we can still talk about infinity.
    2) God can have a body if he wants to (incarnation).
    3) That is a bit strange analogy, but it conveys the message.
    4) That passage implicitly, almost explicitly, says that Jesus claims to be God, and he is.


    1. Yes, people talk about "infinity" and try to relate it to God. Big mistake, for God is Infinite!  Infinity has to do with the created, with things, with bodies, with created finite things.

    2. God CAN either take, or make up a body to communicate with us, including the Fiery Angel that God used to talk to Moses through. You don't actually think now that the Angel of Fire was God too, do you? Or should you ever see him, you wouldn't bow down and worship the Angel of Fire as one of the gods of this Trinity would you?  God can use the wind, or thunder, or even a donkey, to communicate to us by, right? But this doesn't make God a finite, created being, for all bodies are created and finite.

    3. Jesus is a soul/spirit like we are, .. living in a body, only he had a different body before he came to earth. Up in Heaven, he was called the "Word" there is no telling what type of body God made for him up there,  and God created all things through him/Word.
    It was the "Word" who became flesh and dwelt amongst us.
    The Word was changed from an incorruptible body into a DNA that the Angel placed into the egg of a virgin. After his resurrection, .. on his way back up to Heaven, his mortal body was changed back into an immortal one again, which is what will happen to us too!

    4. But read it again, all of it .. it specifically says that Jesus is the son of God. Why would my son say he is me? And if my son won't try to be someone he is not, why would you think that our Lord Jesus would impersonate God his Father, when it says clearly in the Bible that Jesus was a righteous servant of his Father, which is why God raised him above all principalities and powers, because of his loyalty to his Creator/Father and God!

    As for God, .. please show me one place in the Bible where God shows He is less than God, ever? Even when He wrestles with Jacob and let's him win, Jacob knows that He is still God. I used to wrestle with my son all the time when he was a toddler, and let him win too.
    But Jesus made it clear over and over again that he has a God who he prays to, that God is his Father who is "greater than him", .. that he receives instructions from his Father and does what He asks him to do, how could anyone mistake all that to mean Jesus is God!? I mean "Who could instruct God whose wisdom is Infinite" while Jesus admitted that he does everything his Father/God asks him to do. Jesus obeyed the will of his Father!

    God bless you.
  • @Judaism ;

    1) The current age is a transition age. The Messiah will bring purification, purging, before peace, according to Malachi. God's kingdom is slowly being established in the world through the spread of the Christian church.
    2) Beginning in Isaiah 40 gives the context for Isaiah 53, a new creation and new exodus. Isaiah 53 is a valid prophecy, which has many arguments in itself.
    3) Christians believe in one God. Christians are not polytheists. They believe in a triune God. Isaiah 43:11 says that there are no other gods than the triune God, not banning the possibility of Jesus being God.
    4) All have sinned and are not worthy to enter heaven, so saying that most people will go to hell does not imply that God is evil.


    @anonymousdebater said: 1) The current age is a transition age. The Messiah will bring purification, purging, before peace, according to Malachi. God's kingdom is slowly being established in the world through the spread of the Christian church.

    No, .. we have to stop making such blasphemous comments like that; "God's kingdom is slowly being established in the world through the spread of the Christian church"!

    The history of the Christian Church is a bloody, perverted, pagan god worshipping, child molesting and deified-gods 'Deities' worshipping one.

    It is none other than Jesus the Word of God who established his Church, for He is the Way, the Truth & the Life, No One comes to the Father except through Him. It is the Bible being spread throughout the world, and people opening their eyes to Christ's teaching that will open the door for those who seek and knock.
    The Christian Church has constructed a very wide road  by creating tens of thousands of denominations with over 2 billion people blindly walking on it, all leading to the god of this world, .. who is leading the world to one place and one place only, to hell!

    Matthew 7:13-14

    The Narrow Way

    13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.


  • @Judaism ;

    Most of your Trinity arguments are sound, but they either debunk commonly used evidence or say there is only one God. To make it clear, Christains believe that there is only one God!See https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aVwDfwYJ3Lb7PvoGzsmGnczna9-8bfpP9JtElwtA-Ug/edit?usp=sharing.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 636 Pts
    Human confirmation bias is an interesting property. When we believe in something hard enough, or we want something to be true hard enough, then we will take every little thing as evidence of that being true. This is likely the case here: if you look at the parts from the Bible that are quoted in support of these predictions come true, then you will see that they are extremely vague and sometimes even incorrect, and a very forced interpretation is needed to connect them to the observable historical events.

    I call this "the Nostradamus effect": make a statement vague enough, and there will be many ways to connect it to something that happens in the future, allowing its classification as "prophecy". If I make the statement: "When the wolves howl at the cold winter night, the doom will come on Earth" - I set my "prophecy" for success, because so many events are possible to connect to such an arbitrary claim. I can easily connect the next terrorist attack at night to this, for example. If the person has a strong belief in my prophecies, then they will employ a strong confirmation bias to see any major sad news as the proof of my prediction coming true.
    BaconToes
  • @SkepticalOne

    It's not incoherant if you are a nonlinear thinker. If I figured out immortality and time travel, I could go back in time and watch my mortal self live his life.
  • @SkepticalOne

    It's not incoherant if you are a nonlinear thinker. If I figured out immortality and time travel, I could go back in time and watch my mortal self live his life.
    Unless you think Jesus was

    How does this thought experiment apply to the Biblical god? Was Jesus (part of the triune godhead) a mortal "in the beginning with god"? What does it mean to be a mortal god (sounds like a man to me). Can the sacrifice of a mere man buy salvation for all of humanity past and present? Your solution only raises more questions and answers none.

    As I said, the biblical god concept is incoherent - mental gymnastics notwithstanding.
  • @SkepticalOne

    It is 3 manifestations of the same being in 3 different roles. 

    For example, a time traveler goes back in time, gets his 5 year old self, and raises him on an island. His being is in two seperate persons. One is fragile and dependent on the older version. He is protected by the older one. 2 seperate bodies acting independent of one another, but the exact same being.
    Evidence
  • @SkepticalOne

    The human person, Jesus is mortal. His being is not.
    Evidence
  • BaconToesBaconToes 194 Pts
    @brontoraptor
    Any proof of that?

    i fart cows
  • @SkepticalOne

    Another way of looking at it is the movie "The Matrix". Sure, you could kill Neo inside of the Matrix, but you couldn't kill the real Neo from inside the Matrix, because the realNeo isn't in the Matrix.
  • @SkepticalOne

    Another way of looking at it is the movie "The Matrix". Sure, you could kill Neo inside of the Matrix, but you couldn't kill the real Neo from inside the Matrix, because the realNeo isn't in the Matrix.

    The 'sacrifice' of a virtual avatar is no sacrifice at all. This is simply more mental gymnastics..
  • @SkepticalOne

    The human person, Jesus is mortal. His being is not.
    I see no reason to think "human" and "being" can be separated. Your assertions won't make it so.
  • @SkepticalOne

    Claiming it is "mental gymnastics" while having no answer for how reality came into being is rather disingenuous. When no one has an answer, the "true" answer is most likely an exercise in mental gymnastics that isn't even conceivable to the human mind.

    Nevertheless, if you woke up in a Matrix, and lived a real matrix human life, then slowly began to realize who you were, your death would still feel very real, regardless of the fact that your true being is outside of the Matrix. Neo knows he's in the Matrix eventually, but thdpain and battles within it are still very real.
  • @SkepticalOne

    If we revert back to the first comparison of raising your five year old self. Watching his dpain would still be agonizing for you, despite you being seperate from him as a person. You would still have empathy for his pain, despite being the same being as him.
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