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Justice league would beat the Avengers

Debate Information

10 person teams and the characters that are normally on that team. It is under the movie category because there is no book or superhero category. You are also allowed to use the comics.

Avengers: Hulk, Iron-man, Captain America, Black widow, Ant-man, Hawk-eye, Doctor Strange, Quicksilver, Vision, Thor.  

Justice League: Flash, Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Green Lantern, Doctor Fate, Shazam, Cyborg, Aquaman, Martian Man-Hunter.
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Debra AI Prediction

Predicted To Win
Predicted 2nd Place
33%
Margin

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    Arguments


  • NopeNope 397 Pts   -  
    General_Smiley Who is faster. Quicksilver or the flash?
  • @Nope not even a question the flash If you want I can link multiple videos and sources 

    Quicksilver has gone a little over the speed of sound 
    The Flash has gone multiple 1000 times then the speed of light. To put that in perspective he has gone faster than instant teleportation from one side of the universe to the other.
  • NopeNope 397 Pts   -   edited December 2017
    General_Smiley In that case the flash could beet every member of the avengers except maybe the Halk because for some reason instead of dieing when he should he should he turns into the halk and Thor because he is a god. Is it possible to kill the Halk and Thor. I think the Justice League would win. They have the flash which could beet all of the Avengers before the battle started. They just have to beat the other team right. Because Thor and the Hulk could definitely be defited. Non of the other members of the Justice League even need to do a thing. Sorry for spelling. : )
    General_Smiley
  • General_SmileyGeneral_Smiley 35 Pts   -   edited December 2017
    @Nope He could knock hulk out with the infinite mass punch and stick him in the speed fore. The speed fore only speedsters can get out and time is endless. Hulk could not even get get out even with his strength because unless a speedster accesses it and gets him out then he has no chance. Hulk Cannot Die, but Thor on the other hand can die. If he wanted to The flash wanted to he could use Thor's lightning to his advantage 
  • NopeNope 397 Pts   -  
    General_Smiley Flash could be pretty much any super hero. They could not even think of what to do before they are gone. I am more intruted in a battle with out people how could practically make things happen instantly. Iron man could make a machien so strong it could hurt superman as relistcly he should be knocked out by a realy big punch. I wonder if Halk could beat super man with one punch. Super man is quick and has strong punches of his own. The thing is a lot of the Justice League super heros have more then one power while most avengers don't.
  • Yeah he is pretty Op and he also has more powers so he is great. I hope That you continue to study The Flash and maybe join the DC side of superhero fans.
  • averyaproaveryapro 150 Pts   -  
    I think that Justice League would win just because they have a much stronger and more well rounded team then the Avengers/
    General_Smiley
  • SuperSith89SuperSith89 170 Pts   -  
    Justice League wins every time, EXCEPT when Scarlet Witch is there.  Also, difference between movies and comics.  

    MOVIES
    To be fair, the JL is not quite as strong as their comic counterparts.  Especially Flash.  I think the movie Avengers have a good chance of taking out most the movie JL, but Superman is their biggest threat.  Overall, JL will win even with Flash being a lot slower.  

    COMICS
    In almost every case, the JL, but if Scarlet Witch has her full power, the JL is screwed.  She literally wiped out all mutants by saying "No more mutants".  She could just chaos magic away the JL.  Otherwise, can't see any other comic Avenger taking down Superman or Flash.  Maybe Sentry?  Not sure if he counts.  

    General_Smiley
  • AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  
    Basically Dr Strange can solo everyone if he doesn't get taken our by a super speedster in the first second.

    He's the whose classic adventures can involve stuff like beating up the universe.
    SuperSith89
  • AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  
    @Nope not even a question the flash If you want I can link multiple videos and sources 

    Quicksilver has gone a little over the speed of sound 
    The Flash has gone multiple 1000 times then the speed of light. To put that in perspective he has gone faster than instant teleportation from one side of the universe to the other.
    That was a one off for Flash when he was draining a lot of speed from an entire planet and it wasn't even the current Flash.

    Another thing of note is how the speed force might work. I believe in Marvel Vs DC Flash mentioned losing connection to it and losing a lot of speed to put him on a level pegging with Quicksilver.
  • PoguePogue 584 Pts   -  
    The Justice League would win. The Avengers do not have a lot of powerhouses. They are really good together, but if broken up, they would fail. Especially if you pair the superheroes from each one to one. Also, is there any prep time? If there is, Batman would probably destroy them. Batman could probably create a suit that could beat the Avengers. He created one called the "Justice Buster" suit. It was created to solo the Justice League. He also has the "Insider Suit" which has all the powers of the members of the Justice League. 
    General_SmileyBaconToes
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain .” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  
    If there's prep time Tony Stark can invent stuff that literally blows up planets, Dr Strange can basically instawin and Thor has loads of magical macguffins he can use.
  • PoguePogue 584 Pts   -  
    @Ampersand
    But Batman could probably invent something that could beat the Avengers just like the justice buster could beat the Justice League (it was so close the suit was destroyed and everyone was destroyed). He could probably take out Iron Man Electromagnet Nerve Tree for Cyborg and Citrine Neurolizer for Green Lantern. It can track the Flash and cause him to fall, so he could beat quicksilver. Black widow, Ant-man, Hawk-eye are not a threat at all. Cap. would be beaten by any member including Batman in his regular Batsuit. Hulk is weaker than Superman. Flash could probably take anyone down quickly. 
    BaconToes
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain .” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • General_SmileyGeneral_Smiley 35 Pts   -  
    @SuperSith89 I Like your argument but if we are adding an 11th person we would also get Zatana so it would a pretty even fight. 
  • General_SmileyGeneral_Smiley 35 Pts   -  
    @Ampersand The only problem you face is That Fate Has been Way more powerful in comics, games and TV shows. He easily fight Dr strange in the modern Comic book, movie, and Tv Show era. Dr strange got nerfed many years ago and so say Dr. Strange is going to easily take out every one is probably wrong. Dr Fate being has not gotten weaker though. 
  • GrenacheGrenache 65 Pts   -  
    I'm no expert in comics but I'll add this... Despite gadgets and gimmicks and fancy moves, eventually battles come down to whom is pretty much impossible to destroy.  In Avengers that's probably Hulk and Thor.  In Justice League that's probably just Superman.  And although Superman is amazing (in fact so amazing I've always found him to have it too easy and be a boring one to cheer for) he does still have the Kryptonite weakness and his enemies do have a talent for getting their hands on that.  

    Basically I'm saying after all the other players cancel out you'd have Superman eating Kryptonite and Hulk and Thor badly thrashed but still alive to come back from that.

    Avengers
    General_SmileyPieter
  • General_SmileyGeneral_Smiley 35 Pts   -   edited March 2018
    @Ampersand It all depends on which Flash is in the Justice League at the time. Barry was in it for a considerable amount of time, but for a large amount of Comics and the Justice League TV show it was Wally West. And if we are taking speed force off then the Flash still wins. Because without the speed force most flashes can go just as fast, but just have negative effects on the world, causing Nuclear explosions and chaos. Taking the speed force makes absolutely no sense because it is his power and you wouldn't take Green Lanterns ring or Dr. Stranges power over Universal entities. It makes no sense that you would take the Flash's Power. It is something that he got as a power its, not something that is only available in one comic book universe. In almost every other Vs battle on most websites or Video Flash get the speed Force so it makes no sense to keep it out. Either way, many of the Flashes, speed force or not could easily destroy Quicksilver and the rest of the Avengers.
  • AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  
    @Ampersand The only problem you face is That Fate Has been Way more powerful in comics, games and TV shows. He easily fight Dr strange in the modern Comic book, movie, and Tv Show era. Dr strange got nerfed many years ago and so say Dr. Strange is going to easily take out every one is probably wrong. Dr Fate being has not gotten weaker though. 
    The most recent Dr Fate is a newbie without a great deal of power who's been dealing with earth-based gods and zero cosmic threats.

    Meanwhile putting aside the current arc which is a brief status-quo shake-up before reverting to the norm, Dr Strange has been fighting multiverse level threats as normal. is on a whole other level.

    Also you stated "The Flash has gone multiple 1000 times then the speed of light. To put that in perspective he has gone faster than instant teleportation from one side of the universe to the other." Now that wasn't Barry Allen the current Flash who did that, that was Wally West a completely different person. He did that once 20 years ago and it wasn't something he did by himself but rather siphoning energy from billions of people who gave it to him and the entire multiverse has been remade at least three times that I can think of since then.

    If that is a valid feat to apply to Flash, some of Dr Strange's stuff is sure as heck applicable because it's at least the same person and it wasn't done under totally unique circumstances that aren't replicable in a standard fight.

    Pogue said:
    @Ampersand
    But Batman could probably invent something that could beat the Avengers just like the justice buster could beat the Justice League (it was so close the suit was destroyed and everyone was destroyed). He could probably take out Iron Man Electromagnet Nerve Tree for Cyborg and Citrine Neurolizer for Green Lantern. It can track the Flash and cause him to fall, so he could beat quicksilver. Black widow, Ant-man, Hawk-eye are not a threat at all. Cap. would be beaten by any member including Batman in his regular Batsuit. Hulk is weaker than Superman. Flash could probably take anyone down quickly. 
    If you're taking planning into consideration, I think Batman isn't going to come out ahead in a "fancy-suit-a-thon" against Iron Man and the problem is again the obscene stuff Marvel guys can do with planning - none of them really having a way to counter Dr Strange. Also Batman's anti-Justice league plans are based around his comprehensive knowledge of his teammates and are tailored specifically to them - for instance tony Stark's suit isn't integrated directly into his nervous system like Cyborg.

    @Ampersand It all depends on which Flash is in the Justice League at the time. Barry was in it for a considerable amount of time, but for a large amount of Comics and the Justice League TV show it was Wally West. And if we are taking speed force off then the Flash still wins. Because without the speed force most flashes can go just as fast, but just have negative effects on the world, causing Nuclear explosions and chaos. Taking the speed force makes absolutely no sense because it is his power and you wouldn't take Green Lanterns ring or Dr. Stranges power over Universal entities. It makes no sense that you would take the Flash's Power. It is something that he got as a power its, not something that is only available in one comic book universe. In almost every other Vs battle on most websites or Video Flash get the speed Force so it makes no sense to keep it out. Either way, many of the Flashes, speed force or not could easily destroy Quicksilver and the rest of the Avengers.
    I'm thinking back 20 years or so, but I'm sure that in either Marvel vs DC or Justice League/Avengers (there were some 90's crossovers between the two companies) it had Quicksilver power up in the DC Universe/Flash power down in the Marvel Universe because the Speed Force isn't multiversal. It's not me saying this should happen, it's me saying what Marvel and Dc have already decided this happens. 

    Also Flash has the potential to take down a lot or even all of the Marvel side, but then again so do some of the others and  it depends how we're matching people up because Flash also regularly struggles with people who move at normal speed like the Rogues.

    Key questions:

    1) Do people have time to plan or are they thrown in to the fight?
    2) Are people acting like they normally would or are they fighting to kill?
    3) Should we judge power based on people's general capabilities or their highest shown capabilities - which will vary a lot because comics aren't consistent with how they present thing.

    I think a combination of no time to plan, fighting to kill and going based on the highest shown capabilities even if it's not their norm will give Flash a good shot at an insta-win as he should be able to vibrate everyone's brains out their socket in a nanosecond, with the only possibility of a defence being Strange's automatic mystical protections. Any other situation though (e.g. Avengers can plan counters, Flash is fighting like he normally would in the comics, etc) and he loses the edge.
  • General_SmileyGeneral_Smiley 35 Pts   -  
    @Ampersand The 80's comic was Legitimately was Marvel Vs Dc and the Flash were allowed access to the speed force. In a completely different Comic after Several Attempts, Quicksilver did beat him, but it was because he found a way to cut off the speed force temporarily. Barry Allen has Literally just gotten back in rebirth. It all depends on which version of the justice League time we are using. Barry did run faster than the speed of light as well. He saved a whole country after a nuclear bomb went off. Here is a pic of it.
    Image result for Barry the flash saving north Korea
     
    Even if we are taking the Speed force out then we can put Hulk and thor in the Phantom Zone.
  • AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  
    @Ampersand The 80's comic was Legitimately was Marvel Vs Dc and the Flash were allowed access to the speed force. In a completely different Comic after Several Attempts, Quicksilver did beat him, but it was because he found a way to cut off the speed force temporarily. Barry Allen has Literally just gotten back in rebirth. It all depends on which version of the justice League time we are using. Barry did run faster than the speed of light as well. He saved a whole country after a nuclear bomb went off. Here is a pic of it.
    Image result for Barry the flash saving north Korea
     
    Even if we are taking the Speed force out then we can put Hulk and thor in the Phantom Zone.
    JLA/Avengers #1 where Flash enters the Marvel universe:



    He then gets badly beaten up by these ordinary humans and needs a special suit that stores speed force to be able to do anything in Marvel.

    Marvel vs DC was something different, it was in the 90s not the 80s and the fights took place in nondescript locations rather than specifically in the Marvel universe.

    You'll also note that in the panel you provide clearly states that he is moving less than light speed. That the numbers don't add up to reflect that means the author got his maths wrong - not that the Flash was actually travelling that fast when the comic book states that he wasn't. In fact not being able to move faster than light is a significant limitation for the Flash and part of his story as trying will cause him to merge with the Speed Force if there aren't plot specific rationalisations for how he manages to avoid it in a particular instance.

    Also contrary to your claim that still wasn't Barry Allen that did that, once again that was Wally West in 2003 in JLA #89.

    Lastly in relation to trying to strand the heavy hitters in a different dimension, Marvel has 2 guys who can do that with no prep time or non-standard equipment necessary (Dr Strange and Thor can both travel to and from other dimensions and send people there) unlike the DC team where they'd need the Phantom Zone projector, so if you think that is the winning tactic then you should lean in Marvel's favour as they have the advantage there.
  • All of those heroes sound great. Wonderful. But I am sorry to inform, that unfortunately, they are nothing. Nothing compares to One Punch Man. Yes, I am finally giving him some spotlight. 


    If I had to choose though between the two, i'd have a horrible time since I know a lot more about DC which is still limited and even far less on Marvel. That's why I say, there is always that alternative. NONE of them stand a chance against
    ONE PUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNCH
  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -  
    Wars are won by defence not offence. Gandhi understood this concept very well. The more you can make other nations see your enemy as the bad guy the higher the chance you inevitable end up as the victor.

    Justice league is extremely defensive in its power kit.
    Avengers are semi-defensive with only Hulk being the true unkillable among them.

    Superman and wonder woman you won't be laying a finger on... The only hope avengers have is if captain America and hulk 'tank' their strategic attacks effectively over and over again then maybe it will begin to open up windows for their more offensive kit but i doubt this will matter.

    Batman has gear that can auto-detect and auto-this and that... Green lantern can imagine matter-based objects of any shape and density at will and make them a reality as long as he isn't scared at all and instead turns the fear immediately into adrenaline AKA bravery and not to mention that while Hawkeye has supernatural aim, Arrow is a genius of when and how to sneak the arrows in which is much more important for the attack-damage carry in the team than pure aiming of the skillshots.

    Black widow and iron man will be futile. if you dont understand why, you dont understand the science of what beats what. the type of warfare that black widow and iron man are designed for is vs MANY easily killable enemies, they are not designed for 1v1 drawn out brutal combat. Hulk and captain america are designed for that but that's only 2 on the team whereas other than Arrow every single justice league member is designed for longer drawn out brutal combat rather than rapid-fire 1-vs-all type combat.
    General_Smiley
  • AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  
    All of those heroes sound great. Wonderful. But I am sorry to inform, that unfortunately, they are nothing. Nothing compares to One Punch Man. Yes, I am finally giving him some spotlight. 


    If I had to choose though between the two, i'd have a horrible time since I know a lot more about DC which is still limited and even far less on Marvel. That's why I say, there is always that alternative. NONE of them stand a chance against
    ONE PUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNCH
    couldn't even beat up a mosquito.

    Wars are won by defence not offence. Gandhi understood this concept very well. The more you can make other nations see your enemy as the bad guy the higher the chance you inevitable end up as the victor.
    Gandhi never won a war, plenty of wars have been won by offence (e.g. take Hitlers campaigns against Poland, the Netherlands, France, etc where his blitzkrieg tactics defeated the enemy or Genghis Khan's horse swarm) and trying to summarise all the factors involved in warfare in a single wars are won by X statement is incredibly simplistic to the point of obliviousness.

    Justice league is extremely defensive in its power kit.
    Avengers are semi-defensive with only Hulk being the true unkillable among them.

    Superman and wonder woman you won't be laying a finger on... The only hope avengers have is if captain America and hulk 'tank' their strategic attacks effectively over and over again then maybe it will begin to open up windows for their more offensive kit but i doubt this will matter.

    Batman has gear that can auto-detect and auto-this and that... Green lantern can imagine matter-based objects of any shape and density at will and make them a reality as long as he isn't scared at all and instead turns the fear immediately into adrenaline AKA bravery and not to mention that while Hawkeye has supernatural aim, Arrow is a genius of when and how to sneak the arrows in which is much more important for the attack-damage carry in the team than pure aiming of the skillshots.

    Black widow and iron man will be futile. if you dont understand why, you dont understand the science of what beats what. the type of warfare that black widow and iron man are designed for is vs MANY easily killable enemies, they are not designed for 1v1 drawn out brutal combat. Hulk and captain america are designed for that but that's only 2 on the team whereas other than Arrow every single justice league member is designed for longer drawn out brutal combat rather than rapid-fire 1-vs-all type combat.
    I'm honestly not sure where you're getting most of your ideas from this from, like what gear batman has that autodetects, what it's auto detecting, how that's helpful, how Hawkeye and Green Arrow differ in skills when they're basically carbon copies of one another or why you think Black Widow and Iron man specialise in fighting lots of weak enemies when pretty much every hero mentioned will have decades of comic books showing their history of taking on high-level super-villains on par with members of the opposing team. 
    someone234Pieter
  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -  
    @Ampersand wars are never won, they are lost. The loser had the weaker defence system.
  • AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  
    @Ampersand wars are never won, they are lost. The loser had the weaker defence system.
    You have given nothing to support this claim and I've given examples which show it to be false. For instance to further go into detail, in his campaign against Western Xia Genghis Khan faced massive difficulty in defeating his opponent because they had walled cities and castles and the Mongols had very little experience at siege warfare at that point. However despite clear defensive advantage the Xia enjoyed, because of the clear offensive advantage of the Mongols on the field of battle the Xia could do little more than stay cooped up in their castles. This advantage won by the Mongols offensive power, therefore allows could engage in time consuming and only somewhat effective measures like diverting rivers to flood the cities.

    Later on sieges became easier for the mongols as they used engineers from conquered populaces, so even though the defenders still has a clear defensive advantage in having fortified positions they were still in an inferior overall position and their defensive advantage came to mean less and less in real terms as the mongol offensive prowess increased.
  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -  
    @Ampersand you understand some things but not how winning is done.

    winning is a concept of the other guy losing instead of you. once you understand this you understand close to my level of wisdom.

    genghis khan won because the others couldn't defend against him. genghis khan prevented himself losing because the other's didn't understand how to exploit his defense system.
  • AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  
    @Ampersand you understand some things but not how winning is done.

    winning is a concept of the other guy losing instead of you. once you understand this you understand close to my level of wisdom.

    genghis khan won because the others couldn't defend against him. genghis khan prevented himself losing because the other's didn't understand how to exploit his defense system.
    You just seem to arbitrarily making claims, so as your argument lacks content there's nothing of value for me to respond to.
  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -  
    Ampersand said:
    @Ampersand you understand some things but not how winning is done.

    winning is a concept of the other guy losing instead of you. once you understand this you understand close to my level of wisdom.

    genghis khan won because the others couldn't defend against him. genghis khan prevented himself losing because the other's didn't understand how to exploit his defense system.
    You just seem to arbitrarily making claims, so as your argument lacks content there's nothing of value for me to respond to.
    @Ampersand This is the power of the enemy not comprehending my defence.

    You don't know where I'm weak so you don't know where to attack.

    If you understood my arguments better, you'd begin to find where they could be attacked, if at all.
  • PoguePogue 584 Pts   -  
    Ampersand said:
    @Ampersand you understand some things but not how winning is done.

    winning is a concept of the other guy losing instead of you. once you understand this you understand close to my level of wisdom.

    genghis khan won because the others couldn't defend against him. genghis khan prevented himself losing because the other's didn't understand how to exploit his defense system.
    You just seem to arbitrarily making claims, so as your argument lacks content there's nothing of value for me to respond to.
    @Ampersand This is the power of the enemy not comprehending my defence.

    You don't know where I'm weak so you don't know where to attack.

    If you understood my arguments better, you'd begin to find where they could be attacked, if at all.
    So you are using the 13th-century khan as an analogy to superheroes. If your offense is is too good your defense would not stop it. I still think the JL would win but I wanted to say this. You are not a god like debater! Your arguments can be attacked. Why are you so egotistical? 
    BaconToesGeneral_Smiley
    I could either have the future pass me or l could create it. 

    “We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain .” - Benjamin Franklin  So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.

    I friended myself! 
  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -  
    @Pogue debating is inherently a gamble because both sides can't tie. any true-skill game doesn't force a loss.

    debating has a tiny bit of luck involved and I can be beaten but no, my arguments do not leave much to be attacked. I structure my arguments to be basic and extremely well-founded rather than elegant and powerful but flawed in their basis.
  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -  
    @Pogue Khan was brought up by ampersand to counter me, I didn't bring it up.
  • AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  
    @Pogue Khan was brought up by ampersand to counter me, I didn't bring it up.
    You made the claims that in in warfare defence always wins over offence. You gave no evidence to support this.

    For your claim to be true it should be impossible for me to even provide 1 example of offence winning out over a superior defence in war. I have provided that example, Genghis Khan, ergo you are wrong.

    That's not even getting into the other problems with your argument like the assumption - completely without evidence to support it btw - that warfare can be summed up as some simplistic offence vs defence dialectic or that warfare has any connection to brightly coloured comic book characters punching each other in an imaginary battle.

    You simply saying "I am right because I say I am right", which is all your argument amounts to, is irrelevent. All it tells us is that you have a high opinion of yourself and nothing else.
    Pogue
  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -  
    @Ampersand if Khan's defense was weak, he'd have lost long before he became Indomitable.
  • AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  
    @Ampersand if Khan's defense was weak, he'd have lost long before he became Indomitable.
    You stated:

    "wars are never won, they are lost. The loser had the weaker defence system."

    In my example the loser had nigh impenetrable city walls and lost because although their "defence system" was clearly superior, all they could do was hide behind it because they couldn't match the offensive prowess of the Mongol Horde.

    Ergo your claim is wrong and the claims you are basing upon it are also wrong.
  • VaulkVaulk 813 Pts   -  
    JL would win for the simple fact that the Flash could step back through time and eliminate the entire Avenger team minus Thor.  Hulk - killed as a child before his transformation.  Superman, killed as a child immediately following his crash on Earth with Kryptonite.  The rest would fall the same.  The only one I'm thinking that wouldn't fall into this fate would be Thor but he's FAR from immortal and could easily be killed during his exile to Earth when he had no power.
    General_Smiley
    "If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".


  • AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  
    Vaulk said:
    JL would win for the simple fact that the Flash could step back through time and eliminate the entire Avenger team minus Thor.  Hulk - killed as a child before his transformation.  Superman, killed as a child immediately following his crash on Earth with Kryptonite.  The rest would fall the same.  The only one I'm thinking that wouldn't fall into this fate would be Thor but he's FAR from immortal and could easily be killed during his exile to Earth when he had no power.
    This is based on a few assumptions, which are the ones I laid out as necessary earlier in the thread for Flash to be able to get quick victory due to his speed:

    1) No time to plan in advance for the fight so the Marvel side can't raise any defence against this tactic

    2) Everyone going all out - e.g. Flash will be performing at his peak, not at the level he often actually performs where he can struggle against guys moving at normal speed.

    3) No morals so Flash is willing to go for the kill.

    Without those, this doesn't apply.

    With Flash and this tactic in particular there are two extra issues:

    4) How do Flash's powers work? As shown earlier they only work normally in the DC universes, in the Marvel or presumably a neutral universe he doesn't have access to the speed force - which eh needs to time travel.

    5) How does time travel work? Different multiverses have different multiversal laws. In Marvel with its infinite universes it's nigh impossible to change the future by altering the past, you actually just create a new alternate timeline but leave the original untouched. In DC with its limited number of universes, going back in time actually does change the future.
  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -  
    Ampersand said:
    @Ampersand if Khan's defense was weak, he'd have lost long before he became Indomitable.
    You stated:

    "wars are never won, they are lost. The loser had the weaker defence system."

    In my example the loser had nigh impenetrable city walls and lost because although their "defence system" was clearly superior, all they could do was hide behind it because they couldn't match the offensive prowess of the Mongol Horde.

    Ergo your claim is wrong and the claims you are basing upon it are also wrong.
    Thing for a moment of two things:

    1) what you define as 'clearly superior'
    2) the inability to exploit Khan's defense system.
  • AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  
    Ampersand said:
    @Ampersand if Khan's defense was weak, he'd have lost long before he became Indomitable.
    You stated:

    "wars are never won, they are lost. The loser had the weaker defence system."

    In my example the loser had nigh impenetrable city walls and lost because although their "defence system" was clearly superior, all they could do was hide behind it because they couldn't match the offensive prowess of the Mongol Horde.

    Ergo your claim is wrong and the claims you are basing upon it are also wrong.
    Thing for a moment of two things:

    1) what you define as 'clearly superior'
    2) the inability to exploit Khan's defense system.
    1) The cities were impenetrable to the Mongol forces without massive effort. The Mongols had no such defence, they were simply better and more deadly in actual combat. Hence the defence of Western Xia was clearly superior. If you are using some definition of "defence" where giant city walls protecting you from an invading horde doesn't qualify as defence, your definition is meaningless.

    2) The issue was the Mongol's offensive prowess. On a field of battle the Mongols would have beat the Xia troops handily using their offensive prowess to mercilessly slaughter the Xians hence how the  Xians relied purely on their defensive advantage - which was still not enough to win them the day as all it did was stop any direct immediate attack.
  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -   edited March 2018
    @Ampersand the concept you are not realising is that the key to dominance was that the enemy had no clear idea where the weaknesses in the defence of the mongol fighting style was.

    If they had known that, then the Mongols could be as offensive as they wanted but would die instantly to the exploitation of their defense.
  • AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  
    @Ampersand the concept you are not realising is that the key to dominance was that the enemy had no clear idea where the weaknesses in the defence of the mongol fighting style was.

    If they had known that, then the Mongols could be as offensive as they wanted but would die instantly to the exploitation of their defense.
    So just for the record you claim there is some secret technique that would magically have killed all the mongol horde despite their advantages in mobility, weaponry, infrastructure (or lack of a need thereof) - but despite your claims to its existence you can give no idea as to what this weakness is?

    And you can still offer no proofs of your "defence = everything" theory being real?

    and you've still offered no proof of any connection to your alleged lynchpin of military warfare and comic book fights?
  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -   edited March 2018
    @Ampersand The way you fight them is to kill them. Everyone was so scared of them because they'd ride in with horses that had brooms attached to their tails etc so the dust hid form view how few or them they were. Then as the enemy holds back, they are free to run in, kill off the best fighters and bully the non-militant citizens.

    Most of the civilisations they conquered had nothing close to compulsory conscription and for that reason alone so few of the many even knew how to fight.

    To defeat the mongols, simply required everyone to be ready to fight. They (Khan's men) were always outnumbered and always outgunned but won because everyone thought they'd 'play it safe and surrender' and every time it failed to mitigate the brutality.
  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -  
    @Ampersand Eventually, because Khan recruited the best fighters in the enemy armies rather than killing them off or torturing them, he had such a powerful force of the most skilled fighters that there was nearly no hole in his defence at all but this was after a whole decade or two of being a tiny, flawed, army.
  • General_SmileyGeneral_Smiley 35 Pts   -  
    How did this debate devolve to this mates? 
  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -   edited March 2018
    How did this debate devolve to this mates? 
    It evolved from a cartoon character fight to Khan.

    Evolution is not devolution and 'devolution' implies your thread is dying due to where it's heading.
    General_Smiley
  • General_SmileyGeneral_Smiley 35 Pts   -   edited March 2018
    Ok, I know Ampersand will find a way to disagree. But, If the flash had access to the speed force then it is game over. This fight isn't to kill it is to just incapacitate. If The Flash doesn't have speed force fine Flash can still know out everybody a lot of people. Batman beats Captian America. Cyborg's tech can easily take out Starks tech. In the Marvel vs Dc Comic, Superman knocks out Hulk. Wonderwoman would hands-down beat Black widow. Green Lantern would knock out Antman easy. Martian Manhunter and Vision are pretty evenly matched, but I think he could pull it off. Dr. Fate beats Dr. strange. I will let you have Shazam die just so you can have a plus one.  So let's count: From the ones that have fought, we still have Flash, Superman, Wonder woman, Green Lantern, Batman, Dr. Fate, Cyborg, and maybe Martian Manhunter. Against, let us see you still have Hawkeye and Thor. Lol, you must really be arrogant to think Hawkeye and Thor can beat the entirety of the justice league.  Superman, The Flash, Wonder woman, Batman, Dr. Fate, Aquaman, Cyborg, and Martian Manhunter. Might I just say bye Thor and bye Hawkeye? If you really want to get technical, after The Flash beats Quicksilver he could totally infinite mass punch Hawkeye. So then it would be them all against Thor. If Thor has trouble taking down Thanos and other big bads, by himself, he is going to sure as hell be knocked out by all of these combined. 
  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -  
    @General_Smiley You are incorrect about these things.

    If Flash goes back in time and does things like change people's childhoods, then the fight itself never happened in the first place.
    General_Smiley
  • AmpersandAmpersand 858 Pts   -  
    Ok, I know Ampersand will find a way to disagree. But, If the flash had access to the speed force then it is game over. This fight isn't to kill it is to just incapacitate. If The Flash doesn't have speed force fine Flash can still know out everybody a lot of people. Batman beats Captian America. Cyborg's tech can easily take out Starks tech. In the Marvel vs Dc Comic, Superman knocks out Hulk. Wonderwoman would hands-down beat Black widow. Green Lantern would knock out Antman easy. Martian Manhunter and Vision are pretty evenly matched, but I think he could pull it off. Dr. Fate beats Dr. strange. I will let you have Shazam die just so you can have a plus one.  So let's count: From the ones that have fought, we still have Flash, Superman, Wonder woman, Green Lantern, Batman, Dr. Fate, Cyborg, and maybe Martian Manhunter. Against, let us see you still have Hawkeye and Thor. Lol, you must really be arrogant to think Hawkeye and Thor can beat the entirety of the justice league.  Superman, The Flash, Wonder woman, Batman, Dr. Fate, Aquaman, Cyborg, and Martian Manhunter. Might I just say bye Thor and bye Hawkeye? If you really want to get technical, after The Flash beats Quicksilver he could totally infinite mass punch Hawkeye. So then it would be them all against Thor. If Thor has trouble taking down Thanos and other big bads, by himself, he is going to sure as hell be knocked out by all of these combined. 
    The Flash with the Speed Force is the Flash that appears in modern of DC comics. He still had trouble with people who act at normal speed (Captain Cold, Firefly, most of the supervillains he fights). Let's use the example of Identity Crisis where Deathstroke got flash to impale himself on his sword (Wally West several years ago, I know, just the first that springs to mind). Clearly not the kind of guy that can isnta-win this fight.

    Your assumptions involve the Flash being at his peak prowess even if that refers to levels of power he hasn't displayed for years and which were actually performed by a different character with the same superhero identity. If you make these assumptions for Flash, it is only fair that you make them for all characters. This means Dr Strange has magical automatic defences which are automatically in place and will stop him being insta-koed. It also means that we're looking at levels of power where he can just blow up the entire planet if he wants.

    Also FYI Iron man is Dr Doom, in the comics Tony Stark died so Iron man is a technical and magical powerhouse.

    Now generally I would agree that DC heroes are far more powerful than Marvel heroes and that Superman can beat Thor even with Superman's weakness to magic. It doesn't really matter to me, for instance one my favourite heroes of all time (Hawkeye) is incredibly weak - but whether a hero is powerful is very different from whether a hero is interesting and fun to read.

    The thing this trend doesn't hold true in two areas: Cosmic characters and Super-tech. In terms of super scientists and what they can accomplish, Marvel is ridiculous. Dr Doom has on at least 3 different occasions attained omnipotence or nigh-omnipotence. He can travel through time, dimensions, space and configure weapons to fight enemies of basically limitless power - even gods - and other high level Marvel scientists do the same. The other thing Marvel tends to have its cosmic beings like Eternity, Living Tribunal, Master order, the Inbetweener as major forces that interact in the universe. They vary in power from "Incredibly powerful" to "omnipotent" and a lot of Dr Strange's history was being the character who got involved with these guys, fought them and was shown to be as powerful as them. Now more recently they've toned him down, but If we're looking at his greatest feats ever in the same way we're doing with Flash his power is basically "Limitless amounts of doing whatever the hell he wants."

    On that metric I say:

    1) If characters are fighting at their peak taking into account all historical showings, Dr Strange is so overpowered he could take all of the Justice League PLUS all the rest of the Avengers singlehandedly and you have to bring up some Superman is a fourth-dimensional superstory type reasoning to counter this.

    2) If characters have time to plan, Iron Man or Strange can win because the stuff they can do with a bit of time is so absurd. Like Dr Doom could literally go to a different universe and then destroy the initial universe type absurd.

    3) In a straight fight based on their existing normal power levels, DC wins. DC has more people at a generally high level of power and especially with Dr Strange weakened at the moment due to the whole death of magic story-line and losing the mantle of Sorcerer Supreme, he can't be the Trump Cardd.
    General_Smiley
  • General_SmileyGeneral_Smiley 35 Pts   -  
    I agree with basically everything you said, and I'm not going to mess with the things I do not agree with because that would just be very petty of me. I agree with something you said. "3) In a straight fight based on their existing normal power levels, " I agree with this because if we are talking about these Characters I do not feel it ok to have Dr strange and Hulk or Superman as Superman Prime and Dr. Fate operating at Max Power. It wouldn't be fair either way. So I propose we go to where these are at in the current Comics and movie Universes. I am not saying that because you said "In a straight fight based on their existing normal power levels, DC wins. DC has more people at a generally high level of power and especially with Dr. Strange weakened at the moment." I am saying it because it just doesn't seem fair to either side we do it that way. Dr. Strange in his prime time was an Extremely large powerhouse in the Marvel Realm. And so is Superman in his Universe Especially Superman prime, and Flash if he had speed force, and maximizing full potential. It just makes more a competition rather than a who can legit control the universe type deal. Thanks for letting me clear somethings up for myself and for anyone else trying to understand what is going on.  
  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -  
    @General_Smiley The fight will always be unfair unless the result is a tie.

    Therefore, you are not balancing it by weakening Dr, Strange, you're merely rigging it for JL.
  • jklassen19jklassen19 3 Pts   -  
    The Justice League would beat the Avengers for the sole reason that they have Superman. Superman is literally unstoppable and practically unkillable besides Kryptonite. Plus, the rest of the Justice League could easily hold their own against the Avengers. Besides Hulk and Thor, the Avengers are actually pretty weak and don't really have actual powers compared to the Justice League.
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