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1984 is Now

Debate Information

We've been dumbed down by the public education system.

We've been indoctrinated by the corporate owned mass media.

We've been socially engineered by Hollywood movies, pop culture music and TV programming.

We've been drugged, brainwashed and robbed by Big Pharma and the American healthcare racket.

We've been tricked into thinking the U.S. is a democracy, not knowing it's a Corporate Oligarchy.

Orwell is rolling in his grave.
agsrsomeone234AmpersandZombieguy1987anarchist100
  1. Live Poll

    1984?

    12 votes
    1. yes
      41.67%
    2. no
      58.33%
Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

Wayne Dyer



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    Arguments


  • FredsnephewFredsnephew 361 Pts   -  
    @Erfisflat ;

    Interesting proposition.

    I would have to say, that there are elements of reality in all the points you make.

    Nonetheless, answer me this.

    How do we maintain social order,  without imposing some form of State control?


  • csellkecsellke 5 Pts   -  
    You bring up some good points but unfortunately no.
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    @Erfisflat ;

    Interesting proposition.

    I would have to say, that there are elements of reality in all the points you make.

    Nonetheless, answer me this.

    How do we maintain social order,  without imposing some form of State control?


    Would you say we have "social order" now? I think things are even more screwed up under state control than ever before. That is an opinion though. 
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -   edited April 2018
    I don't believe a bunch of overpaid idiots who have driven this country into tens of trillions of dollars in debt are better qualified to run my life than I am.
    Debater123
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    War is peace.

    Today the wars have no end in sight. The wars are always on some distant battleground, and the enemies are constantly changing. More and more tax money is poured into the private military industrial complex in the name of "national security".
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    The surveillance state.

    In 1984, "telescreens" served as both a propaganda machine and recording or surveillance devices in all but the "proles" houses. Today, we one-up Orwell with our pocket telescreens that both can record us, and give us a never-ending flow of propaganda.


    http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/06/07/nsa_surveillance_iphones_make_snooping_easy_for_spies_and_law_enforcement.html

    https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2013/10/23/240239062/five-things-to-know-about-the-nsas-surveillance-activities
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -  
    The way to achieve true anarchy is to let everyone spy on everyone (including us on our government) at all times. Since you want privacy and don't want such an event to happen, they justify their privacy and corruption by saying you can't spy on them either.

    Until the world has everyone watching everyone at all times, anarchy and true freedom will always lose to tyranny. :)
    Fascism
  • FascismFascism 344 Pts   -  
    @someone234 I agree. That is why I don't think privacy is as important as safety. Even when it comes to the government. What the government is doing should be open to the public. 

    Unfortunately, even if this is achieved, the media can always choose which news to report and some vital information might purposefully be left out. 
    someone234Erfisflat
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    The way to achieve true anarchy is to let everyone spy on everyone (including us on our government) at all times. Since you want privacy and don't want such an event to happen, they justify their privacy and corruption by saying you can't spy on them either.

    Until the world has everyone watching everyone at all times, anarchy and true freedom will always lose to tyranny. :)
    You really can't say the best way to obtain anarchy is with any type of government, it's a polar opposite (pun intended). It's like saying the best breed of dog is a cat! At any time, as with NASA, they fully create our reality and we accepted it as truth. Most people would never think to question What they show, with the illusion of transparency.


    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -  
    Erfisflat said:
    The way to achieve true anarchy is to let everyone spy on everyone (including us on our government) at all times. Since you want privacy and don't want such an event to happen, they justify their privacy and corruption by saying you can't spy on them either.

    Until the world has everyone watching everyone at all times, anarchy and true freedom will always lose to tyranny. :)
    You really can't say the best way to obtain anarchy is with any type of government, it's a polar opposite (pun intended). It's like saying the best breed of dog is a cat! At any time, as with NASA, they fully create our reality and we accepted it as truth. Most people would never think to question What they show, with the illusion of transparency.


    If we had access to spy on NASA as they do with us, no such power could be maintained by them.
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    Erfisflat said:
    The way to achieve true anarchy is to let everyone spy on everyone (including us on our government) at all times. Since you want privacy and don't want such an event to happen, they justify their privacy and corruption by saying you can't spy on them either.

    Until the world has everyone watching everyone at all times, anarchy and true freedom will always lose to tyranny. :)
    You really can't say the best way to obtain anarchy is with any type of government, it's a polar opposite (pun intended). It's like saying the best breed of dog is a cat! At any time, as with NASA, they fully create our reality and we accepted it as truth. Most people would never think to question What they show, with the illusion of transparency.


    If we had access to spy on NASA as they do with us, no such power could be maintained by them.
    This level of transparency would create vulnerability, due to "national security". 
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    Erfisflat said:
    The way to achieve true anarchy is to let everyone spy on everyone (including us on our government) at all times. Since you want privacy and don't want such an event to happen, they justify their privacy and corruption by saying you can't spy on them either.

    Until the world has everyone watching everyone at all times, anarchy and true freedom will always lose to tyranny. :)
    You really can't say the best way to obtain anarchy is with any type of government, it's a polar opposite (pun intended). It's like saying the best breed of dog is a cat! At any time, as with NASA, they fully create our reality and we accepted it as truth. Most people would never think to question What they show, with the illusion of transparency.


    If we had access to spy on NASA as they do with us, no such power could be maintained by them.
    This level of transparency would create vulnerability, due to "national security". 
    someone234
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -  
    @Erfisflat If you think I don't know that their reply is a lie, you don't know me well enough then. You should know I know their reasoning is flawed for not letting us audit them at the top level with 'national security' as the defence.
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    @someone234 It's not exactly that. With limitless transparency, there actually will be no national security. People are power hungry. It would only take a few moves to overthrow a completely transparent and defenseless state, crippling the military and using it for personal gain is eminent in such a predicament, and the government  (govern-control ment-mind) would not last very long in reality.
    someone234
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -  
    @Erfisflat Oh I know, unless the whole world and all governments agreed to it, it wouldn't work.
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    @Erfisflat Oh I know, unless the whole world and all governments agreed to it, it wouldn't work.


    Sounds eerily familiar.
    someone234
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -  
    @Erfisflat A new world order where everyone is spying on everyone at all times is incorruptible anarchy and liberty for all. If you are going to say that Nixon used the same wording amongst others, then I do not care. I tell the truth and can back it up with reasoning.
    Erfisflat
  • WilliamSchulzWilliamSchulz 255 Pts   -  
    The way to achieve true anarchy is to let everyone spy on everyone (including us on our government) at all times. Since you want privacy and don't want such an event to happen, they justify their privacy and corruption by saying you can't spy on them either.

    Until the world has everyone watching everyone at all times, anarchy and true freedom will always lose to tyranny. :)
    Is that to say that anarchy will lead to a better society. If we don't have a government or any type of ruling order, then in what ways would we be restricted by social constraint if there are no laws to govern such?
    someone234
    A good debate is not judged by bias, but in the context of the debate, where objectivity is key and rationale prevalent. 


  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -   edited April 2018
    @WilliamSchulz The majority would watch any depraved minority, be it pedophiles, terrorists and/or wannabe tyrants trying what they want to do... You name it, you plan a rape? Caught. You plan a framing of a crime? Filmed and heard doing it. :)
  • WilliamSchulzWilliamSchulz 255 Pts   -  
    Can you then outline the social punishment for such an action? It seems like citizens would lose their privacy and personal rights that we cherish in the government. Sure, the government is heavily flawed and works against society all the time, but the constraints of the legal system at least function so that citizens have immunities from the government that can be taken against the government. 
    ErfisflatBaconToes
    A good debate is not judged by bias, but in the context of the debate, where objectivity is key and rationale prevalent. 


  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -  
    @WilliamSchulz You don't comprehend this: We would all become the government, we would all be the police of everyone else.
  • WilliamSchulzWilliamSchulz 255 Pts   -  
    Right, so wouldn't that lead to a lack of privacy and personal rights. My neighbor can convict me of a crime I didn't commit by being a judge himself in his own case. If we are to elect policemen, why can they enter my house without a warrant? What you seem to suggest is that we would have all of the original laws, but drop the governing officials. That doesn't seem like anarchy, that seems like a social uprising.  
    A good debate is not judged by bias, but in the context of the debate, where objectivity is key and rationale prevalent. 


  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -  
    @WilliamSchulz You were watched 24/7, you can't be framed and he was watched too, he can't frame you.
  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -  
    @WilliamSchulz there is no such thing as anarchy without social uprising.
  • WilliamSchulzWilliamSchulz 255 Pts   -  
    Usually, social uprising replaces one form of government with another, and in your case, they are replacing a corrupt government with none at all, which is not usually the goals of a social uprising. Also, if he can't frame me since he himself is being watched, then who actually has the authority to convict people for crimes?
    A good debate is not judged by bias, but in the context of the debate, where objectivity is key and rationale prevalent. 


  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -  
    @WilliamSchulz Everyone has that authority over everyone in true anarchy.
  • WilliamSchulzWilliamSchulz 255 Pts   -  
    That doesn't answer the question and leads to a contradiction. If nobody can convict anybody because of constant surveillance but everyone had authority over everyone, then how does the conviction process work? What keeps me from stealing that TV? :P 
    A good debate is not judged by bias, but in the context of the debate, where objectivity is key and rationale prevalent. 


  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -   edited April 2018
    @WilliamSchulz No one can frame anyone, everyone can punish everyone and as long as the majority of humanity is sane and justice-seeking the world will remain as such. At any time where the majority aren't, it's game over even in non-anarchy.
  • WilliamSchulzWilliamSchulz 255 Pts   -  
    What measures would you use to define people as justice seeking and sane when in an anarchal world, it is every man for himself under a lack of laws? How would you define justice and sanity if you believe our government is clearly lacking such promises of such?
    A good debate is not judged by bias, but in the context of the debate, where objectivity is key and rationale prevalent. 


  • someone234someone234 647 Pts   -  
    What measures would you use to define people as justice seeking and sane when in an anarchal world, it is every man for himself under a lack of laws? How would you define justice and sanity if you believe our government is clearly lacking such promises of such?
    We all would come up with one. Every case would be its own. 

    I know what your comeback will be so I'll repeat myself:
    As long as the majority of humanity is sane and justice-seeking the world will remain as such. At any time where the majority aren't, it's game over even in non-anarchy.

  • WilliamSchulzWilliamSchulz 255 Pts   -  
    So then what is game over, and what happens if it does occur. If every man creates his own laws, you are excluding rapers, con-artists, murderers, thieves, and other people who remain in prison on the basis that they are not justice seeking, no matter how sanely our current system judges them by. Point in hand, there must be laws other than "I said so, therefore, it is." There has to be some dominant ruling force that over arches our views on law, because nobody will accept our "laws" if their laws are different, which then reduces justice and increases violence. 
    anarchist100
    A good debate is not judged by bias, but in the context of the debate, where objectivity is key and rationale prevalent. 


  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 5967 Pts   -   edited May 2018
    Based on his books and articles, my understanding of Orwell's point is that the gradual expansion of the state role in the life of individuals will eventually lead to the situation where not only does the state completely control what people think and believe, but where logic itself is de-platformed as the leading concept with regards to rational thinking, in order to make people unable to question the reality the government presents them ("doublethink" is a great example of what he was trying to say).

    I do not see much resemblance of the American society and lifestyle to that of people from 1984.The closest example to that from the modern world would be North Korea, where the official narrative changes by 180 degrees whenever convenient, and where almost every aspect of people's lives is controlled by the state. Personally, I only interact with the state once a year, when I file my tax return. This is less interaction than most people in the UK had at the time with their government - so, rather than rolling in his grave, I think Orwell would be genuinely surprised and happy to see his predictions turn out to be wrong.

    I think a better analogy for the processes you've described would be Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451, than Orwell's 1984. Huxley's New Brave World also illustrates certain points (mainly prevalence of the demand for physical pleasure over the demand for intellectual pleasure), albeit falling short in predicting the governmental role in these processes.
    Zombieguy1987
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1675 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar said:
    Based on his books and articles, my understanding of Orwell's point is that the gradual expansion of the state role in the life of individuals will eventually lead to the situation where not only does the state completely control what people think and believe, but where logic itself is de-platformed as the leading concept with regards to rational thinking, in order to make people unable to question the reality the government presents them ("doublethink" is a great example of what he was trying to say).

    I do not see much resemblance of the American society and lifestyle to that of people from 1984.The closest example to that from the modern world would be North Korea, where the official narrative changes by 180 degrees whenever convenient, and where almost every aspect of people's lives is controlled by the state. Personally, I only interact with the state once a year, when I file my tax return. This is less interaction than most people in the UK had at the time with their government - so, rather than rolling in his grave, I think Orwell would be genuinely surprised and happy to see his predictions turn out to be wrong.

    I think a better analogy for the processes you've described would be Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451, than Orwell's 1984. Huxley's New Brave World also illustrates certain points (mainly prevalence of the demand for physical pleasure over the demand for intellectual pleasure), albeit falling short in predicting the governmental role in these processes.
    In the novel, doublethink is described as:  "To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it." 

    If this doesn't describe the Donald Trump campaign, I don't know what does.

    What of the other similarities?

    Newspeak was created by the totalitarian state and involved the joining of two words or abbreviations to make more words. Pretty much how the world sends text messages, amirite? K....

    This may not have come about by the same ways and reasons. Newspeak was done to make a revolution impossible by scrubbing the words for it in the English vocabulary, wholeslang texting is done for convenience and time saving. Some would say the net results have some similarities though.
    CYDdhartaZombieguy1987
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • Zombieguy1987Zombieguy1987 471 Pts   -  
    Erfisflat said:
    We've been dumbed down by the public education system.

    We've been indoctrinated by the corporate owned mass media.

    We've been socially engineered by Hollywood movies, pop culture music and TV programming.

    We've been drugged, brainwashed and robbed by Big Pharma and the American healthcare racket.

    We've been tricked into thinking the U.S. is a democracy, not knowing it's a Corporate Oligarchy.

    Orwell is rolling in his grave.

    @Erfisflat at again

  • K_MichaelK_Michael 114 Pts   -  
    While we seem to have elements of the Orwellian world in modern society, and it is a large concern, it would be ridiculous to say that the U.S. is a communist nation.
    Zombieguy1987
    "We're all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." 
  • WordsMatterWordsMatter 493 Pts   -   edited January 2019
    If we are in a surveillance state it is not because it was forced upon us, but welcomed and embraced with open arms. I remember back in the 90s you were warned not to post personal information over the internet. Now we have people willingly giving it up to Facebook, posting details about their lives, things they are currently doing, and where they are or will be going. We've integrated carrying computers on us at all times that can track us at all times and preferred text based communication over verbal, leaving paper trails of everything we say and think. The internet has created a sense that everyone should be heard, the everyone has an equally weighted voice and 'what I have to say is important and people need to hear it' leading to self incrimination resulting in lose of jobs because someone just had to post some dumb controversial post and didn't think to just keep that opinion in offline conversations that aren't far reaching in public. People don't have security and privacy concerns. They enjoy taking online quizzes about "which alcoholic drink are you?" While not realizing the such a seemingly random quiz, when combined with other online data can paint a very accurate profile of who you are, what you like and what you will do. People will install random apps that ask for all sorts of permissions and just uncaringly accept through all of them, just to access an app where you can have a virtual farm. Cambridge analytica and some bikini photo app were both caught combing the data of everyone on a single person's friends list if that one person decided to use it. So it didn't matter if you were careful with what you have permission to, the act of just being on Facebook gave the power to your friends to give up your data. We constantly want more smart products in our homes that have internet capability letting even more data be tracked. We invite Alexa into our homes to listen to us constantly without knowing who is on the other end, just because we can't be bothered to physically change music, or look something up ourselves. We willingly send in our DNA, our most intimate of personal data, to companies all for the fun of learning your heritage, which the results are generally wrong anyway (vastly different results found in twins) and then these companies are free to do what they want with your DNA, ancestry was already caught selling it to Google's Calico.

    Orwell got the future of a surveillance state right however he got it wrong that the government forced it onto us, instead we begged for it and once government officials actually get smart enough to realize what it is, opposed to the lack of focus on security and privacy shown in the Google testimony, they will simply co-opt it. Instead of government installed security cameras everywhere we each carry the surveillance camera in our pockets, ready to deploy it on a fellow citizen at any moment. We are at a point in time where drug addicts are better with security than the average person as their is literally a manual over a hundred pages long detailing how to hide what you are doing on the web so that you can buy drugs on the dark web, while being almost uncatchable, and if they are caught is usually due to the physical package and not online activity, but even that isn't full proof.
    Zombieguy1987
  • George_HorseGeorge_Horse 499 Pts   -  
    We are not in a totalitarian socialist society, so we are not in 1984, though I do not know about North Korea, they are the least close to 1984. Those types of societies are no longer common.
    Zombieguy1987piloteer
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

    "A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill

    We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.~Orson Welles
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