A killer question by a genius of a theist

Dee

@mickyg

You say .....i am atheist

My reply .....so am I

You say ..there was no jesus as the quran claims..quran is WRONG

My reply ....... I couldn’t care less what the Quran says

mickyg

there was no jesus..not one eyewitness account@Dee

Dee

@mickyg

You say .....there was no jesus..not one eyewitness account

You’re telling me this why?

mickyg

you talk about jesus as if he was a real entity...@Dee

Dee

@mickyg

A wandering rabbi called Jesus I believe existed the historicity regarding such is accepted in academia and amongst scholars with expertise in the field, the difference is Historians merely see Jesus as a charismatic teacher and not the miracle working “messiah” that theists claim

mickyg

There were thousands of guys named Jesus.It was a common name.The Romans crucified 100,000 Jews.Probably a thousand guys named Jesus.Can you name a scholar who says Jesus existed that does not use the anonymously written and second century gospels.?@Dee

Dee

@mickyg

I think you need to research the Historicity of Jesus .......

Wiki

The historicity of Jesus is the question if Jesus of Nazareth can be regarded as a historical figure. Virtually all New Testamentscholars and Near East historians, applying the standard criteria of historical-critical investigation, find that the historicity of Jesus is effectively certain,[1][2] although they differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the details of his life that have been described in the gospels.[3][4][5][note 1]

The question of the historicity of Jesus is part of the study of the historical Jesus as undertaken in the quest for the historical Jesus and the scholarly reconstructions of the life of Jesus, based primarily on critical analysis of the gospel texts and applying the standard criteria of critical-historical investigation,[6][7][8] and methodologies for analyzing the reliability of primary sources and other historical evidence.[9]

While scholars have criticized Jesus scholarship for religious bias and lack of methodological soundness,[note 2] with very few exceptions such critics generally do support the historicity of Jesus and reject the Christ myth theory that Jesus never existed.[11][12][13][14][note 3]

mickyg

The wicki post does not address the fact that the gospels are anonymous .It also does not mention that no one in history mentions the very existence of the gospels until 160ad by Justin Martyr.Using the gospels as proof of jesus is affrirming the consequent.A fallacy of logic.

mickyg

From a little later in your "proof". The historical reliability of the gospels refers to the reliability and historic character of the four New Testament gospels as historical documents. Little in the four canonical gospels is considered to be historically reliable.[52][53][54][55][56].
The gospels are anonymous as the catholic church admits.@Dee

Dee

@mickyg

From the Guardian ......Dr Simon Gathercole

I know where I put my money and I don’t know where you get your information but I think you really need to do a little bit of research on the matter ......

How confident can we be that Jesus Christ actually lived?

The historical evidence for Jesus of Nazareth is both long-established and widespread. Within a few decades of his supposed lifetime, he is mentioned by Jewish and Roman historians, as well as by dozens of Christian writings. Compare that with, for example, King Arthur, who supposedly lived around AD500. The major historical source for events of that time does not even mention Arthur, and he is first referred to 300 or 400 years after he is supposed to have lived. The evidence for Jesus is not limited to later folklore, as are accounts of Arthur.

What do Christian writings tell us?

The value of this evidence is that it is both early and detailed. The first Christian writings to talk about Jesus are the epistles of St Paul, and scholars agree that the earliest of these letters were written within 25 years of Jesus’s death at the very latest, while the detailed biographical accounts of Jesus in the New Testament gospels date from around 40 years after he died. These all appeared within the lifetimes of numerous eyewitnesses, and provide descriptions that comport with the culture and geography of first-century Palestine. It is also difficult to imagine why Christian writers would invent such a thoroughly Jewish saviour figure in a time and place – under the aegis of the Roman empire – where there was strong suspicion of Judaism.

What did non-Christian authors say about Jesus?

As far as we know, the first author outside the church to mention Jesus is the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, who wrote a history of Judaism around AD93. He has two references to Jesus. One of these is controversial because it is thought to be corrupted by Christian scribes (probably turning Josephus’s negative account into a more positive one), but the other is not suspicious – a reference to James, the brother of “Jesus, the so-called Christ”.

About 20 years after Josephus we have the Roman politicians Pliny and Tacitus, who held some of the highest offices of state at the beginning of the second century AD. From Tacitus we learn that Jesus was executed while Pontius Pilate was the Roman prefect in charge of Judaea (AD26-36) and Tiberius was emperor (AD14-37) – reports that fit with the timeframe of the gospels. Pliny contributes the information that, where he was governor in northern Turkey, Christians worshipped Christ as a god. Neither of them liked Christians – Pliny writes of their “pig-headed obstinacy” and Tacitus calls their religion a destructive superstition.

Did ancient writers discuss the existence of Jesus?

Strikingly, there was never any debate in the ancient world about whether Jesus of Nazareth was a historical figure. In the earliest literature of the Jewish Rabbis, Jesus was denounced as the illegitimate child of Mary and a sorcerer. Among pagans, the satirist Lucian and philosopher Celsus dismissed Jesus as a scoundrel, but we know of no one in the ancient world who questioned whether Jesus lived.

How controversial is the existence of Jesus now?

In a recent book, the French philosopher Michel Onfray talks of Jesus as a mere hypothesis, his existence as an idea rather than as a historical figure. About 10 years ago, The Jesus Project was set up in the US; one of its main questions for discussion was that of whether or not Jesus existed. Some authors have even argued that Jesus of Nazareth was doubly non-existent, contending that both Jesus and Nazareth are Christian inventions. It is worth noting, though, that the two mainstream historians who have written most against these hypersceptical arguments are atheists: Maurice Casey (formerly of Nottingham University) and Bart Ehrman (University of North Carolina). They have issued stinging criticisms of the “Jesus-myth” approach, branding it pseudo-scholarship. Nevertheless, a recent survey discovered that 40% of adults in England did not believe that Jesus was a real historical figure.

These abundant historical references leave us with little reasonable doubt that Jesus lived and died. The more interesting question – which goes beyond history and objective fact – is whether Jesus died and lived.

Dee

@mickyg

You don’t believe Jesus existed fine , why are you trying to convince me?

mickyg

There is nothing addressing my statement.Nothing about authourship and nothing about the FACT that no one mentions the gospels until Justin Martyr in 160ad.@Dee

mickyg

I am posting for all to see.At least that is what i think i am doing.@Dee

Dee

@mickyg

You say ......There is nothing addressing my statement.Nothing about authourship and nothing about the FACT that no one mentions the gospels until Justin Martyr in 160ad.

My reply .....The first article addresses everything you ask as it has links provided which you didn’t even bother to read , if you wish to challenge what Historians accept that’s fine take it up with them I care not as I’m convinced by their arguments

Certain facts of Jesus life:
- James Dunn states of "baptism and crucifixion", these "two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent".[3]
- Crossan: "That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be, since both Josephus and Tacitus ... agree with the Christian accounts on at least that basic fact."[67]
^ Akenson: "...The point I shall argue below is that, the agreed evidentiary practices of the historians of Yeshua, despite their best efforts, have not been those of sound historical practice".[10]
^ a b The Christ myth theory is rejected by mainstream scholarship:
- Robert E. Van Voorst, referring to G.A. Wells: "The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted".[11]
- While discussing the "striking" fact that "we don't have any Roman records, of any kind, that attest to the existence of Jesus," Ehrman dismisses claims that this means Jesus never existed, saying, "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees, based on clear and certain evidence."[99]
- Robert M. Price, a former fundamentalist apologist who is now a Christian atheist, says the existence of Jesus cannot be ruled out, but is less probable than non-existence, agrees that his perspective runs against the views of the majority of scholars.[100]
- Michael Grant, a classicist, states: "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus,' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary."[101]
- "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church’s imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more."[102]
- Maurice Casey, an irreligious Emeritus Professor of New Testament Languages and Literature at the University of Nottingham, concludes in his book Jesus: Evidence and Argument or Mythicist Myths? that "the whole idea that Jesus of Nazareth did not exist as a historical figure is verifiably false. Moreover, it has not been produced by anyone or anything with any reasonable relationship to critical scholarship. It belongs to the fantasy lives of people who used to be fundamentalist Christians. They did not believe in critical scholarship then, and they do not do so now. I cannot find any evidence that any of them have adequate professional qualifications."[103]
- Bockmuel: "[F]arfetched theories that Jesus' existence was a Christian invention are highly implausible."[104]
^ In Galatians 4:4, Paul states that Jesus was "born of a woman."
^ In Romans 1:3, Paul states that Jesus was "born under the law."
^ That Jesus had a brother named James is corroborated by Josephus.[33]

Dee

@mickyg

Well good for you

mickyg

Nothing of your post addresses why no one in history mentions the gospels until 160ad or that the gospels are anonymous..Paul said in galatians said he got his gospel from no man.Paul never saw jesus on earth.@Dee

Sand

True Christians have one God.

Dee

@mickyg

You say .....Nothing of your post addresses why no one in history mentions the gospels until 160ad or that the gospels are anonymous.

My reply .....It doesn’t have to, my point is I accept the evidence regarding the historicity of Jesus

You say ......Paul said in galatians said he got his gospel from no man.Paul never saw jesus on earth.

My reply ..... Historians as I’ve demonstrated base their findings on evidence that to me is convincing, as I said before I’m an atheist yet I believe a wandering rabbi called Jesus lived you do not why you’re trying to convince me otherwise is beyond me

Also Paul was well aware of who Jesus was as he persecuted his followers before his conversion, Paul, then known as Saul, was "a Pharisee of Pharisees", who "intensely persecuted" the followers of Jesus. Says Paul in his Epistle to the Galatians: "For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers." (Galatians 1:13–14), NIV

Dee

@Sand

Whats a true Christian?

mickyg

yes jesus is not god because he did not know when the e nd would come

no where in the bible does god say the ghost is god
@Sand

mickyg

yes i am a fan of bart ehrman

however bart admits the gospels are anonymous ..then uses the gospels as proof...
i suspect bart has a contract about what he teaches at the chappel hill school..

@Dee

mickyg

acts and luke are written by the same authour who admits not being an eyewitness.
paul admits to persecuting church of god.......not church of jesus...

@Dee

Dee

@mickyg

I still don’t know why you persist in attempting to convince me of what you believe to be the truth you’re behaving like a bible basher in reverse

Paul, then known as Saul, was "a Pharisee of Pharisees", who "intensely persecuted" the followers of Jesus.
What in your opinion was the church of God ?

In the Pauline epistles, the description of the conversion experience is brief. The First Epistle to the Corinthians [9:1][15:3-8]describes Paul as having seen the risen Christ:

Dee

@mickyg

I used to believe exactly like you regarding the historicity of Jesus but out of curiosity srtudied what eminient historians and scholars had to say on the matter , the majority accept that Jesus lived, the thing is the Jesus they accept that lived was a traveling rabbi and merely human like you or I

mickyg

IF there was a jesus that did not have miraculous things happen to him,he would not even be mentioned.
Paul said he was NOT ON EARTH.
PAul never says he is coming back

@Dee

Dee

@mickyg

You say ......IF there was a jesus that did not have miraculous things happen to him,he would not even be mentioned.

My reply .....Yet the very Jesus you say would not be mentioned is the very one accepted by most historians and scholars

You say ......Paul said he was NOT ON EARTH.
PAul never says he is coming back

My reply ..... Where exactly does he say this ? Paul totally believed that a miracle working Jesus lived and walked the Earth

Sand

A true Christian is someone who adheres to the Bible.

@Dee

mickyg

PHILLIPIANS

2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father@Dee

Sand

Here is what the bible says:

Deuteronomy 6:4. "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" - KJV

I have spoke to many Trinitarians who use this Alpha and Omega scripture to prove Jesus is the Alpha and Omega. They say this because the statement afterwards in Revelation 22:16 “I Jesus”. Nevertheless who is speaking? If you look back at verse 8, John falls to worship a Angel, who corrects him and directs him to worship God. Notice verse 10, “He also tells me” indicating he was still speaking, and this Angel finishes the remaining statements. So it is the Angel who says “I Jesus”! How could this be when Jesus is clearly worshiped on other occasions? Jesus no doubt can accept worship in connection to the Father, but not directly to himself, because he is not God. As he says here he is a fellow servant. This is proof that Jesus is an Angel. There is another indication that Jesus is an Angel, one of his titles mentioned there is the bright Mourning Star, Mourning Stars are Angels in Job 38:7.

mickyg

JESUS SAID TO KILL YOUR OWN CHILDREN FOR MISBEHAVING
DO you adhere to that?
@Sand

Sand

United States SAID TO KILL YOUR OWN CHILDREN FOR MISBEHAVING

DO you adhere to that?

@mickyg

mickyg

where does USA say this?.....@Sand

Sand

When children misbehave they place them in jail.

If they misbehave to the point of killing someone, they can be executed.

https://www.cnn.com/2013/07/19/us/death-penalty-fast-facts/index.html

The government has the right to kill who ever they want to kill!

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/worldview/does-the-us-government-have-the-right-to-kill-its-own-citizens/article4451256/

What do you think the second amendment is for? To love people? To place arms over the fireplace? Or to use them when you deem necessary?

And when you deem necessary,.......you looking to shooting them in the foot?

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/second_amendment

What about war? I guess the government gets a pass for that!

Who's kids we sending to war?

https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils in Government/war_victims.htm

And you are here Judging God?

mickyg

.mathew....15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

---------------------------

JESUS DOES NOT KNOW ENOUGH TO WASH BEFORE EATING >.....YECCH

Washing your hands before even touching your face is the best method of preventing spread of disease.

Millions of children would have been spared the extreme pain associated with disease caused by bad hygeine.

--------------------------------------------------

15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death

-----------------------------------------

JESUS IS EMBARRASSED SO HE SNAPS BACK'''''YA I AM A SLOB BUT YOU DON"T KILL YOUR CHILDREN LIKE THE LAW SAYS..

---------------------------------------

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. -- Deuteronomy 21:18-21@Sand

ethang5

>I used to believe exactly like you regarding the historicity of Jesus ....

In other words, he was an ignorant moron, but....

>but out of curiosity srtudied what eminient historians and scholars had to say on the matter , the majority accept that Jesus lived,

He went and replace the ignorance in his head with knowledge. You still wallow in ignorance.

Go and learn something. You're embarrassing atheists.

Dee

@ethang5

In other words, he was an ignorant moron, but

Incorrect unlike ignorant racists like you when presented with credible evidence I accept it as such after doing my own research , your willfully ignorant on account of your genetic stupidity leaving you only one pastime in life Trolling

Plaffelvohfen

@Sand said:

A true Christian is someone who adheres to the Bible.

Really? Does it need to be a 100% adhesion to the Bible or can we pick and choose some parts and discard others? I mean, what about Leviticus, Deuteronomy to name just these 2 parts?

Does it need to be 100% or can I build my own Christianity with just say 60% of the stuff in the Bible? Or maybe it's just 50% or even 35%, I mean how are we to know?

ethang5

>Really? Does it need to be a 100% adhesion to the Bible or can we pick and choose some parts and discard others?

It has to be 100%.

>I mean, what about Leviticus, Deuteronomy to name just these 2 parts?

What about them?

:Does it need to be 100% or can I build my own Christianity with just say 60% of the stuff in the Bible?

No. It has to be 100%.

:Or maybe it's just 50% or even 35%, I mean how are we to know?

How are you to know what? Obedience to God is required 100% at all times. How is this a difficult concept?

YUpeeping777

This is a typical situation when people talk about religion it’s your own personal relationship with your religion;therefore when someone doesn’t believe in your ideology, it becomes an attack on the moral fabric of human beings. So history repeats itself again and again all because of our religions,Judaism Christianity Catholicism Muslim Samarian. This is why every religious doctrine can attribute to every war the human race has ever been in;because we don’t agree with there Religious views and we can’t control them or ourselves ,so we as human beings are wired for war. The human atrocities we continue to commit in the name of our religions and our ideology’s its hard wired in human beings.So we don’t understand them kill them in the name of the lord.

Sand

@Plaffelvohfen

You asked

"

Really? Does it need to be a 100% adhesion to the Bible or can we pick and choose some parts and discard others? I mean, what about Leviticus, Deuteronomy to name just these 2 parts?
Does it need to be 100% or can I build my own Christianity with just say 60% of the stuff in the Bible? Or maybe it's just 50% or even 35%, I mean how are we to know?

"

The answer to your question is yes.

A true Christian is someone who adheres to 100% of the Bible.

Of course ones that are considered cannon.

Because one of the criteria for cannonisity is based on references from the other Bible books.

The name Christian means follower of Christ.

Jesus Christ to be specific.

So when someone claims to be a follower of Christ then they claim to support his viewpoints, teachings, and adhere to his laws.

Christ made a lot of references to other Bible books. To pick and choose which books you like or don’t like, denotes you do not follow Christ.

You only liked some of the things he said.

Jesus taught from Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

So there are a lot of pseudo Christians.

It is one thing to make mistakes, but another to claim to be a follower of Christ and directly oppose his viewpoints, his teachings, and laws.

Some claim to follow the Bible but then they will support war. Jesus taught to love your enemy. So could they truly be a follower of Christ?

Then some will point to the time when the Israelites fought in wars. These ones do not read why they fought then and do not understand why Jesus is telling them not to fight now. Only thing they are doing is comparing. If they are truly a follower of Christ they would seek to understand why Jesus is saying to love your enemy. So they could teach the same message.

The Bible is a book from God.This book has documented prophecy. Predicting accurately world powers and political leaders by name, before they even are born. This cannot be the work of any man.

Then the Bible outlines the two issues that man faces and how to overcome those issues. It explains God’s ultimate purpose, and why he allows people to believe things that oppose his view.

Other laws taught in the Bible

Manslaughter.—Exodus 20:13; 21:22, 23; Matthew 5:21,22.

Sexual immorality.—Leviticus 20:10, 13, 15, 16; Romans 1:24, 26, 27, 32; 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10.

Spiritism.—Deuteronomy 18:9-13; 1 Corinthians 10:21, 22; Galatians 5:20, 21.

Idolatry.—1 Corinthians 10:14.

Drunkenness.—1 Corinthians 5:11.

Stealing.—Leviticus 6:2, 4; Ephesians 4:28.

Lying.—Proverbs 6:16, 19; Colossians 3:9; Revelation 22:15.

Greed.—1 Corinthians 5:11.

Violence.—Psalm 11:5; Proverbs 22:24, 25; Malachi 2:16; Galatians 5:20, 21.

Improper speech.—Leviticus 19:16; Ephesians 5:4; Colossians 3:8.

Refusal to provide for one’s family.—1 Timothy 5:8.

Participation in wars or political controversies of this world.—Isaiah 2:4; John 6:15; 17:16.

Use of recreational drugs.—Mark 15:23; 2 Corinthians 7:1.

YUpeeping777 makes a good point.

Nevertheless, Christians should always respect other religion’s viewpoint. It is because people are pseudo Christians, 80%,60%,40%,20% that they do not listen to other viewpoints.

Yes it becomes an attack on pseudo Christian moral fabric, because they are not adhering to the teachings outlined in the Bible.

So history repeats itself again and again because people are not 100%.

Judaism and Samarian refuses to accept Christ as the Messiah.

Catholics add non Biblical rules and accept idolistic rituals.

Muslims refuse to accept their own guidelines on love and peace.

Yes pseudo followers of Christ are hard wired for war.

If you are a true follower of Christ you would not go to war. This eliminates all Christians who support political factions (including the United States). The Bible is about being neutral, showing love to everyone including your enemies.

In fact the Bible says:

1 John 4:20 “If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a : for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?”-KJV

Romans 12:17-21 “Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.”-KJV

So you see why we call those people pseudo, fake, counterfeit, and imitation. Because they are not 100%. Nevertheless, because they call themselves Christians and only follow 60%, people take their word and attribute all of their atrocities to everyone, including the Bible.

Instead of reading it for themselves and judging the people accordingly.

Jern

Dee said:

@ethang5

>You're on vacay in another country. While walking in the wilderness you crest a ridge and see in the distance 3 men holding down a squirming screaming woman and one of the men is holding a knife and is trying to cut her neck.

Are the 3 men being immoral?

We do not have enough information to tell.

Here is info you need.
1. Intent
a. The men could be a field medical team trying to save the woman's life.
b. The men could be a band of rapists trying to kill the woman they just raped.

2. Relationship
a. The men and the woman could be a group of actors filming a violent scene.
b. The men could be complete strangers to the woman.

3. Authority
a. The men could be police officers trying to get detonator the woman has in her mouth.
b. The men could be robbers trying to get the diamond ring the woman has in her mouth.

This is why you can't just stupidly call an act immoral when you do not know the details.

Are the 3 men being immoral?

We do not have enough information to tell

@Dee ;

I know we've ended our fine discussion over my topic. But I just wanted to say that this is exactly what I meant, when I said that we dont have the full information of Gods plan. Thats all i wanted to say, we dont have to get into a discussion again.

Dee

@Jern

****I know we've ended our fine discussion over my topic. But I just wanted to say that this is exactly what I meant, when I said that we dont have the full information of Gods plan. Thats all i wanted to say, we dont have to get into a discussion again.

It was fun, but we weren’t going to convince each other.Well I don’t believe in a god as you know so if that answer satisfies you I guess that’s it , I just wonder then god knows everything yet he lets these great evils happen or his plan which is complex couldn’t come to fruition?

Why fight against such evils if they are part of the grand plan?

.

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