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Best Persuaded Content

  • Gay at birth?

    JoesephJoeseph
    @RickeyHoltsclaw

    Yes I know you believe in a god that approves of slavery , I hold myself to higher moral standards 
    FactfinderZeusAres42

  • Gay at birth?

    FactfinderFactfinder
    @just_sayin

    If you have been following the discussion it is people like @Joeseph, @Factfinder, @MayCaesar, and @ZeusAres42 that seem to claim that sexual orientation is immutable and that if someone wants to change their sexual orientation they should not be allowed to try or get help in changing.  I don't remember you asking why they hate freedom so much. 

    Fact: If you must out right lie to keep arguing you've already lost. Please post the specific comments by the exact people from their post or post that made this argument.

    Can you prove you chose to like girls before your orientation developed into what it is? Or was sexual preference bestowed upon you during your developmental years? Remember, each lie you tell like the one above, is another nail in the coffin of your faith. See, (?) it's not just the debate you've lost, each lie works against your faith as well.
    I have posted numerous studies that show that sexual orientation is fluid.  Let me post some more:

    Here's a quote from the New Zealand 2023 National study

    Over seven years, 5.7% of participants changed sexual identities at least once. Change was bi-directional (i.e. toward and away from LGB+ identities) and most common in people who initially reported a plurisexual identity. Although women reported higher rates of plurisexuality than men, they were not more fluid in their identities, contradicting the notion of male fixedness and female plasticity in sexuality. Moreover, openness to experience was associated with increased odds of changing from a heterosexual to a plurisexual identity, while political liberalism and lower conscientiousness were associated with increased odds of changing from a heterosexual to a plurisexual identity and more identity changes over time. Overall, our study shows that sexual identity can be fluid into adulthood and has implications for how we understand contemporary human sexuality.

    US national study (includes most recent 5 studies):

    Overall, about 1 in 11 American adults changed sexual identities over five annual surveys, including 6% of cisgender men, 11% of cisgender women, and 35% of gender minorities. Fluidity was particularly pronounced among young adults and among those who had ever identified as bisexual or “something else.”

    Sexuality continues to change and develop well into adulthood, finds study

    The study, published in the Journal of Sex Research, analysed surveys from around 12,000 students, and found that substantial changes in attractions, partners, and sexual identity are common from late adolescence to the early 20s, and from the early 20s to the late 20s—indicating that sexual orientation development continues long past adolescence into adulthood. The results also show distinct development pathways for men and women, with female sexuality being more fluid over time.


    UK national study:

    Almost 7% of people in UK changed sexual identity in six years, study suggests

    One in 15 people – almost 7% of the UK population – changed their sexual identity over a six-year period, a new study suggests.
    Almost 23,000 individuals were observed twice over six years by researchers from Lancaster University, using data from the United Kingdom household longitudinal study.
    ...
    Researchers found that a significant minority (6.6%) of the cohort had changed their reported sexual identity over that period. The study’s main findings show:
    Sexual identity mobility is higher among young people aged 16–24 (7.9%) and older adults aged 65 and over (7.4%), compared with those aged 25–64 (5.0%–6.2%).
    Sexual identity mobility is 10% less likely among men (5.7%) than women (6.3%).
    Sexual identity mobility is three times more likely among non-white minority ethnic individuals (15.5%) than among white people (5.0%).
    Sexual identity mobility is more likely among less educated people.
    The rates of moving into and out of heterosexual identities are comparable.

    I will point this out for the 6th time - the definition of sexual orientation encompasses attractions, behaviors, identity, and group affiliation.  That means that they also measured attractions, as well as behaviors and identity.  

    YOU have claimed that people do not change and that they never make a choice in changing.  Yet, you have not explained how attractions, behaviors, identity, or group affiliation changes without ever making a choice.  What causes people to change sexual orientations, some over 5 times in 5 years, as the studies show, if there is never a choice ever employed?  How does one change behaviors without a choice?  
    No matter how many times you point out red herrings, you haven't proven I or anyone else made this argument you falsely accused...

    If you have been following the discussion it is people like @Joeseph, @Factfinder, @MayCaesar, and @ZeusAres42 that seem to claim that sexual orientation is immutable and that if someone wants to change their sexual orientation they should not be allowed to try or get help in changing.  I don't remember you asking why they hate freedom so much. 

    Can you not read? I said, "The thing is no one argued sexual orientation can't be changed. The point of contention concerns before any possible change occurs."

    Now with that fresh in your mind care to try responding in quick pro quo fashion instead of bull crap? To this again...

    Fact: If you must out right lie to keep arguing you've already lost. Please post the specific comments by the exact people from their post or post that made this argument.

    Can you prove you chose to like girls before your orientation developed into what it is? Or was sexual preference bestowed upon you during your developmental years? Remember, each lie you tell like the one above, is another nail in the coffin of your faith. See, (?) it's not just the debate you've lost, each lie works against your faith as well.


    JoesephGiantManZeusAres42

  • Gay at birth?

    just_sayinjust_sayin
    Joeseph said:
    @just_sayin

    If its the case that change is a choice how come the throughly debunked practice of " conversion " therapy is such a dreadful failure?

    It's truly tragic the lengths individuals like you will go to defend primitive religious dictates ......



    HRC

    Some right-wing religious groups promote the concept that an individual can change their sexual orientation or gender identity, either through prayer or other religious efforts, or through so-called "reparative" or "conversion" therapy. The research on such efforts has disproven their efficacy, and also has indicated that they are affirmatively harmful. Beyond studies focused solely on reparative therapy, broader research clearly demonstrates the significant harm that societal prejudice and family rejection has on lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer (LGBTQ+) people, particularly youth. Furthermore, there is significant anecdotal evidence of harm to LGBTQ+ people resulting from attempts to change their sexual orientation and gender identity. Based on this body of evidence, every major medical and mental health organization in the United States has issued a statement condemning the use of conversion therapy.

    Psychiatrist Dr. L. Spitzer, who once offered a flawed study on reparative therapy, has since denounced the study and has apologized for endorsing the practice.

    SOCE is a topic beyond if a person is born gay and is incredibly nuanced.  So, rather than letting you change the topic to a discussion of SOCE, I will just take a quick moment and state that your claims are false according to the APA (American Psychological Association) report on SOCE.  

    Former participants in SOCE reported diverse evaluations of their experiences: Some individuals perceived that they had benefited from SOCE, . . . [These] individuals reported that SOCE was helpful—for example, it helped them live in a manner consistent with their faith. Some individuals described finding a sense of community through religious SOCE and valued having others with whom they could identify. These effects are similar to those provided by mutual support groups for a range of problems, and the positive benefits reported by participants in SOCE, such as reduction of isolation, alterations in how problems are viewed, and stress reduction, are consistent with the findings of the general mutual support group literature.

    ^Report of the American Psychological Association Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation (Washington, DC: American Psychological Association, August 2009), 3, https://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf.

    Nicholas A. Cummings a former president of the American Psychological Association said “of the patients I oversaw who sought to change their orientation, hundreds were successful” USA Today

     Individual’s goals
    They generally sought therapy for one of three reasons: to come to grips with their gay identity, to resolve relationship issues or to change their sexual orientation. We would always inform patients in the third group that change was not easily accomplished. With clinical experience, my staff and I learned to assess the probability of change in those who wished to become heterosexual. Of the roughly 18,000 gay and lesbian patients whom we treated over 25 years through Kaiser, I believe that most had satisfactory outcomes. The majority were able to attain a happier and more stable homosexual lifestyle. Of the patients I oversaw who sought to change their orientation, hundreds were successful. I believe that our rate of success with reorientation was relatively high because we were selective in recommending therapeutic change efforts only to those who identified themselves as highly motivated and were clinically assessed as having a high probability of success.

    Nicholas A. Cummings, “Sexual reorientation therapy not unethical: Column,” USA Today, July 30, 2013, accessed May 18, 2018, https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/07/30/sexual-reorientation-therapy-not-unethicalcolumn/2601159/.

     APA admits that there is no “valid causal evidence” that SOCE is harmful: 

    RECENT STUDIES 
    Although the recent studies do not provide valid causal evidence of the efficacy of SOCE or of its harm, some recent studies document that there are people who perceive that they have been harmed through SOCE . . . , just as other recent studies document that there are people who perceive that they have benefited from it . . . . . . . 

    Summary We conclude that there is a dearth of scientifically sound research on the safety of SOCE. Early and recent research studies provide no clear indication of the prevalence of harmful outcomes among people who have undergone efforts to change their sexual orientation or the frequency of occurrence of harm because no study to date of adequate scientific rigor has been explicitly designed to do so. Thus, we cannot conclude how likely it is that harm will occur from SOCE. 

    Report of the American Psychological Association Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation (Washington, DC: American Psychological Association, August 2009), 42, https://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf.

    While I would love to call you out for your bigotry and desire to keep people from making their own personal mental and health decisions for themselves, I will refrain from doing so because it is outside the scope of the discussion - which is whether people are born gay.

    Hey, you claimed people are are born gay - where's your evidence?  I keep asking.  And you, because you know you can't, answer the question, have provided no evidence that people are born gay.  I accept your lack of providing evidence that people are born gay, as admission that you have no valid argument.

    GiantMan

  • Gay at birth?

    just_sayinjust_sayin
    MayCaesar said:
    In the sample, 40% of SMA reported at least one change in sexual identity over 18-month period. Greater number of cisgender females reported sexual identity fluidity compared to their male counterparts (46.9% vs. 26.6%). 
    At least one in five teenagers reports some change in sexual orientation during adolescence, according to new research from North Carolina State University, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and the University of Pittsburgh.
    If you look at the list of sexual identities there (Table 1), you will see that a lot of them are about perspective, not actual observable behaviors/traits. For example, there is "Bisexual" and "Pansexual" - what is the difference between the two? I have never gotten a clear answer from anyone identifying as either, yet generally "Pansexual" is seen as somehow more open-minded. Similarly, some people who have identified as "Straight" for a long time will switch to some other identity just to express their openness to the possibility of liking someone else, even though nothing changed in their actual preferences.

    I recently learned, for example, that I am what is called "Demisexual", meaning that I do not experience sexual attraction to someone outside of the context of their personality. Well, if I was crazy about all these billions of categories, I could say, "Okay, I am no longer Straight: now I am Demisexual". While in reality nothing at all changed, I just learned a new label. Yet my statement would contribute to the positive statistics of these studies.
    From reading your comments it would seem that your issue is that sexual orientation is defined by 4 aspects - attraction, behavior, identity, and group affiliation.  These allow for variation and change.  Are you arguing that people are born gay?  If so, what evidence do you have for that belief?
    ZeusAres42JoesephGiantMan

  • Gay at birth?

    ZeusAres42ZeusAres42


    Joeseph brought up the 90% of people are heterosexual.  I did not say that it was untrue, my focus was on if people could change their sexual orientation, and again the literature says it can.  Do you have evidence that it can not change?  if so what is it?  If people can change their sexual orientation then how do they do this without making any choices?  

    Nowhere in the literature does it say someone can change their orientation, and no amount of lying to yourself or others will change what the literature actually says. It says that changes in sexual orientation can be seen among some people via developmental stages. sexual fluidity (Something you constantly misinterpret) refers to variations within a person's experiences of attraction, not a wholesale change from one orientation to another. Completely different things! Sexual orientation, as also stated in the literature, has to do with physical attraction, which is a physical characteristic. 

    And so my point about being able to change our d!ck size still stands and is something you will need to accept to be logically consistent. You are literally saying that a person can consciously and willfully change a physical trait. It doesn't have to be our penis size; it could even be our height or any other physical trait that, according to you, we can change. If this all sounds absurd, it's because it is, but the absurdity is originally in your argument. To be logically consistent, you will need to accept this. Your argument will still be ludicrous, but at least you will be logically consistent with your idiocy. 

    just_sayin @just_sayin

    :)



    FactfinderJoeseph

  • Gay at birth?

    Delilah6120Delilah6120
    @just_sayin
    Homosexuality has been documented throughout human history. This dates back to ancient times with much evidence in literature and records. Homosexuality has existed for millenia. Studies have found that homosexuality orientation rates amongst monozygotic (identical) twins is 65.8% and among dizygotic twins it is 30.4%. This seems to support the argument for biological bases in sexual orientation. Because the higher incidence in identical twins is higher, this is interpreted as supporting the role that genetics plays in sexual orientation. While these percentages are not 100%, there seems to be enough evidence to support a genetic connection. I think that anything other than this interpretation is actually the archaic theory.

    There is much (to me) unnecessary attention placed on homosexuality. Does it make one uncomfortable? Could it be that not understanding something triggers fear? 1) Why does it seem to trigger people? and 2) Why would someone go against their own biological and sexual attraction desires?
    ZeusAres42

  • Gay at birth?

    just_sayinjust_sayin
    @just_sayin

    So, about 1 out of every 5 gay men have had sex with a woman in the past year alone.  Which goes to show you that sexual-orientation is not set in stone and is not immutable

    The only reason to make that statement is to lead to a conclusion of choice in the end. You're claiming 1 out of every 5 gay men make the choice to sleep with women as well. So logic would dictate the others can as well? Is that your point? Cause no matter what 'choice' people make about who they have sex with, their sexual orientation doesn't change. Heterosexuals sleep with people they're not attracted to for various reasons. I imagine homosexuals would too; don't you think?  If they're attracted to the opposite sex then that's the case, if they're attracted to the same sex then that's the case, they still have no choice in THAT matter. 
    Yes, people have agency and can choose who they sleep with, no matter what sexual orientation they are.  So if that it what you mean by 'choice' the answer is yes - people can choose their actions..

    Can people change their patterns and thoughts?  Just as with people losing weight, quitting drugs, alcohol or gambling, yes, they can, but often not without immense and prolonged effort.  Even then, they may have attractions and thoughts because of how those patterns have been established in their brain.  As AA teaches, you never stop being an alcoholic.  That doesn't mean that the person can't live a life where they no longer drink and that after establishing new patterns it isn't a little easier to live without drinking.  

    Because of the political aspects of the issue, people want to deny the scientific research and make claims that sexual orientation does not change, when the evidence is, it can and does for some people.  For 60 plus years people claimed that people are born gay.  we now know that there is no gay gene.  The alleged gay genetic markers are not genetically determinate, that more heterosexuals than homosexuals have so called gay genetic markers, We know that a noticeable percentage of people change sexual orientation during their lifetime.  We also know that about 2/3rds to 3/4ths of all people who identify as gay, have no gay genetic markers at all, while some heterosexuals have the so-called gay genetic markers.  That's what the science says.
    GiantManZeusAres42

  • Gay at birth?

    just_sayinjust_sayin
    @Joeseph
    I did not claim that the majority of the world's population is non-heterosexual.  That is a lie of your own invention. Why do you feel the need to make up lies?  
    You actually did , I don't mind you lying I expect that of you it's your only resort when beaten yet again , sold you at least own up to your lies?

    I previously stated .......
    The obvious fact that the vast majority of the world's population remain with the same sexual identity they were born with? 
    Your reply ......
    You don't get to make a false claim.  Back it up.  
    You called that a "false claim" all in your own words , so man up and apologise for lying again......watch now as Just Lying tries to cover his lie with more lies.

    You get that these are 2 different things right?  Sexual orientation being mutable is one issue, while heterosexuality being more prominent is another, right?  Me proving sexual orientation is fluid does not disprove that most people are heterosexual.  



    You get that these are 2 different things right?  Sexual orientation being mutable is one issue, while heterosexuality being more prominent is another, right?  Me proving sexual orientation is fluid does not disprove that most people are heterosexual.  

    "A lot"?   80 / 90 percent of the worlds population is heterosexual , so what's " a lot" ?

    The issue is if sexual orientation is fluid.  I provided a lot of studies that show it is.  And what studies did you provide to show that people never change their sexual orientation?  Oh, that's right, you didn't.  

    Lie about what exactly? A link to a study showing a very low minority of deepressd American  kids may be confused regards sexual orientation?
    What a "searing" revelation 

    The studies show that how someone self-identifies can change and occurs  in percentage of people (most studies place it between 10 to 20 percent - who have over a multi-year period changed how they self-identified sexually).  Since this debate was specifically about gay men, let me repeat:

     https://typeset.io/.  ;

    Approximately 19% of self-defined homosexual/bisexual men reported engaging in vaginal intercourse in the past year, with 42% reporting it in their lifetime [1]. - see https://typeset.io/papers/same-sex-sexual-behaviour-us-frequency-estimates-from-survey-4xdlm0oi9a

    So, about 1 out of every 5 gay men have had sex with a woman in the past year alone.  Which goes to show you that sexual-orientation is not set in stone and is not immutable.
    GiantManFactfinderZeusAres42

  • Gay at birth?

    just_sayinjust_sayin
    Joeseph said:
    @just_sayin

    You previously claimed that to claim the majority of the world's population was hetrosexual was a  " spurious claim" and as usual fled when asked to back your nonsense up.

    You've been asked several times by me and others to back your claims up regards sexual orientation being a choice , sadly yet again you deflect and dodge when asked to back that absurd claim up.
    I did not claim that the majority of the world's population is non-heterosexual.  That is a lie of your own invention. Why do you feel the need to make up lies?  

    I have repeatedly pointed out that the research shows that there is a lot of fluidity in sexual orientation  Why do you continue to lie about this?.  With various studies showing between 10 to 50 percent of those identifying as non-heterosexual changing their sexual orientation at some point.  I mentioned several studies that show this:  

    Sexual fluidity common among American young adults

    Sexual identity fluidity, identity management stress, and depression among sexual minority adolescents

    Study Highlights Fluid Sexual Orientation in Many Teens

    Let me quote from some studies:

    Sociodemographic Patterns in Retrospective Sexual Orientation Identity and Attraction Change in the Sexual Orientation Fluidity in Youth Study

    Across the sample, 17% reported a retrospective change in identity and 33% reported a change in attractions. 

    Sexual identity fluidity, identity management stress, and depression among sexual minority adolescents

    In the sample, 40% of SMA reported at least one change in sexual identity over 18-month period. Greater number of cisgender females reported sexual identity fluidity compared to their male counterparts (46.9% vs. 26.6%). 
    At least one in five teenagers reports some change in sexual orientation during adolescence, according to new research from North Carolina State University, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and the University of Pittsburgh.

    Study Highlights Fluid Sexual Orientation in Many Teens

    The researchers found that at some point during the three-year period, 19% of students reported at least one change in their self-labeled sexual identity – for example, classifying themselves as heterosexual in year one and as bisexual in year two. Some students reported multiple changes, such as switching from heterosexual to bisexual between years one and two, and then back to heterosexual in year three.
    There were also notable differences between male and female students, with 26% of girls reporting some change in sexual identity over the three-year study period, compared to 11% of boys.

    But wait there's more:  

    Fixed or Fluid? Sexual Identity Fluidity in a Large National Panel Study of New Zealand Adults

    Sexual Fluidity in Male and Females

    The existing body of international research assessing sexual attractions, behaviors, and identities among representative samples of adolescents and adults shows that sexual orientation is not a static and categorical trait. Rather, same-sex sexuality shows substantial fluidity in both men and women, and this fluidity takes a number of forms.

    Sexual Fluidity: Implications for Population Research - Duke University

    Overall, about 1 in 11 American adults changed sexual identities over five annual surveys, including 6% of cisgender men, 11% of cisgender women, and 35% of gender minorities. Fluidity was particularly pronounced among young adults and among those who had ever identified as bisexual or “something else.” 
    GiantMan

  • Gay at birth?

    just_sayinjust_sayin
    Factfinder said:
    @just_sayin

    If you look back over the discussion, you see I have avoided the use of the word choice, because it is a loaded word 

    How is that a loaded word? Bottom line is your perspective is it has to be a choice or god has no right to punish homosexuality as a sin. Everything you argued suggested choice even though you avoided that specific word. 
    Did you see my comment to Joeseph about 'choice'?  Many factors can influence choices, not just biological ones.  

     No my religion does not need there to be no biological association with homosexuality.  There are potential genetic markers associated with alcoholism, drug use, and compulsive gambling,  and just because there are possible genetic markers, doesn''t mean that we are not all responsible for our own conduct.  My faith considers drunkeness a sin also, but it doesn't condemn someone for being more susceptible for alcoholism.  It is their personal actions that matter. 

    As I have pointed out from the literature, which Zeus lied about, the current claim is that in 8 to 25% of self-identifying non-heterosexual there exists one or more of 5 genetic markers that may have a genetic 'influence' on LGBTQ+, however, as I pointed out, this is different than genetic 'determinate'.  That means for over 2/3 to 3/4th of self-identifying non-heterosexuals there is no evidence of any kind of biological factors. 

    My faith does not say that someone is guilty of sin for for their thoughts, their genes, or for their environment, but it is their actions that they are held accountable for. 
    GiantManZeusAres42

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