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Abortion is a thing. LET'S DEBATE ABOUT IT!
in Philosophy

By RodinonRodinon 67 Pts edited August 2017
I disdain to categorize this as "politics," because every stinking thing is political now.  What do you mean marriage is political?  What do you mean parenting is political?  What do you mean what I feed my child is political?  Anyhow.

Abortion.  A popular topic at parties and family Sunday dinners.  A lighthearted icebreaker with strangers at the checkout.  The perfect lead-in question to ask any potential employer.  And it's what we'll be discussing here!  So put on your favorite smooth jazz mix tape, warm up the chocolate fountain, and invite the new neighbors over.  We're talking abortion!  Bring your favorite fondue to pass.  No, wait! Leave that on the table.  It's hot!
kmelkevolution17joecavalryNonCredenti
  1. How do view abortion?

    35 votes
    1. I am supportive of abortion.
      25.71%
    2. I am generally supportive of abortion.
      25.71%
    3. I am generally not supportive of abortion.
      20.00%
    4. I do not support abortion.
      28.57%
«1



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Arguments

  • Abortion is an i humane act which is essentially killing a baby in a painful way.
    DebateIslander and a DebateIsland.com lover. 
  • You're either a realist who accepts chance creation.
    Or a conceptualist who accepts purposeful creation.
    The former accepts, that above all else nothing really matters.
    For the latter, everything has meaning.
    As things stand, we have no evidence to validate either belief.
  • here is the argument that i posted on my own debate about abortion:

    I think that, from a moral and ethical standpoint, Abortion is disgustingly wrong. It is essentially the murder of a human life for the convenience of the mother. 
    It is interesting to me, when i walk around protests i see pictures of abortions, and i think, "why would they just shove these in my face?" Nobody wants to see that. However this is how people would treat pictures of slavery in the 1800's. This connection is interesting enough because the argument in favor of abortion is exactly the same as the argument for slavery, exactly the same. "Your black, your on my property, you are my property i decide if you are a life or not" , "your a fetus, your in my body, i decide if your a life or not". Do you see the correlation?  History repeats itself and it is our job, as the american people to put and end to immoral and unethical evils that time and time again find its way into legality.
    I will now debunk several common pro choice arguments.

    1. It is just a bundle of cells
    Technically they are right, it is just a bundle of cells, however that is essentially what a human is, a bundle of cells. So i don't exactly understand what they are trying to prove here. I have seen many pregnant woman over the years and that bump is not a simple bundle of cells, it is a living breathing human being.

    2.reproductive choice gives woman power over their own bodies
    first of all, if you really had power over your own bodies, you wouldn't have had sex in the first place, unless you are a rape victim which i will explain later. Second, the baby is not part of your body just because it is in it, just like a person is not a slave just because they are in your property. Now back to the case of rape. Rape victims account for less than 1% of all abortions annually. That is an extremely marginal case. There are several programs to help this extremely marginal and unfortunate group (https://www.rapevictimadvocates.org/programs-services/, https://www.rainn.org/)
    outside of the case of rape, abortion cases, ironically are mostly women who cant control their bodies and have irresponsible sex.

    3. It is a constitutional right
    contrary to the roe v wade mishap. the actual constitution does not give woman the power to kill babies (http://constitutionus.com/)



    In conclusion to my opening statement, Abortion is a violation of everyone's right to live, and even though pro choice people tell you that pro choice is pro woman, abortion is the single greatest cause of female deaths annually (pew research), Feminists use the veil of gender equality to push their political agenda, defaming the original idea of feminism and calling everyone who disagrees with their ideas a sexist racist bigoted homophobic hater
    kmelkevolution17EvidenceLoveUChuz_Lifebahis
  • here is the argument that i posted on my own debate about abortion:

    I think that, from a moral and ethical standpoint, Abortion is disgustingly wrong. It is essentially the murder of a human life for the convenience of the mother. 
    It is interesting to me, when i walk around protests i see pictures of abortions, and i think, "why would they just shove these in my face?" Nobody wants to see that. However this is how people would treat pictures of slavery in the 1800's. This connection is interesting enough because the argument in favor of abortion is exactly the same as the argument for slavery, exactly the same. "Your black, your on my property, you are my property i decide if you are a life or not" , "your a fetus, your in my body, i decide if your a life or not". Do you see the correlation?  History repeats itself and it is our job, as the american people to put and end to immoral and unethical evils that time and time again find its way into legality.
    I will now debunk several common pro choice arguments.

    1. It is just a bundle of cells
    Technically they are right, it is just a bundle of cells, however that is essentially what a human is, a bundle of cells. So i don't exactly understand what they are trying to prove here. I have seen many pregnant woman over the years and that bump is not a simple bundle of cells, it is a living breathing human being.

    2.reproductive choice gives woman power over their own bodies
    first of all, if you really had power over your own bodies, you wouldn't have had sex in the first place, unless you are a rape victim which i will explain later. Second, the baby is not part of your body just because it is in it, just like a person is not a slave just because they are in your property. Now back to the case of rape. Rape victims account for less than 1% of all abortions annually. That is an extremely marginal case. There are several programs to help this extremely marginal and unfortunate group (https://www.rapevictimadvocates.org/programs-services/, https://www.rainn.org/)
    outside of the case of rape, abortion cases, ironically are mostly women who cant control their bodies and have irresponsible sex.

    3. It is a constitutional right
    contrary to the roe v wade mishap. the actual constitution does not give woman the power to kill babies (http://constitutionus.com/)



    In conclusion to my opening statement, Abortion is a violation of everyone's right to live, and even though pro choice people tell you that pro choice is pro woman, abortion is the single greatest cause of female deaths annually (pew research), Feminists use the veil of gender equality to push their political agenda, defaming the original idea of feminism and calling everyone who disagrees with their ideas a sexist racist bigoted homophobic hater
    kmelkevolution17

  • outside of the case of rape, abortion cases, ironically are mostly women who cant don't control their bodies and have irresponsible sex.



    kmelkevolution17
  • here is the argument that i posted on my own debate about abortion:

    I think that, from a moral and ethical standpoint, Abortion is disgustingly wrong. It is essentially the murder of a human life for the convenience of the mother. 
    It is interesting to me, when i walk around protests i see pictures of abortions, and i think, "why would they just shove these in my face?" Nobody wants to see that. However this is how people would treat pictures of slavery in the 1800's. This connection is interesting enough because the argument in favor of abortion is exactly the same as the argument for slavery, exactly the same. "Your black, your on my property, you are my property i decide if you are a life or not" , "your a fetus, your in my body, i decide if your a life or not". Do you see the correlation?  History repeats itself and it is our job, as the american people to put and end to immoral and unethical evils that time and time again find its way into legality.
    I will now debunk several common pro choice arguments.
    @JuicyMelonTech Ok, you believe killing a baby is like killing a slave? Well, slaves I could say that killing mosquitoes is like like killing slaves because people decide that the mosquitoes lives are not worth getting stung and maybe getting a variety of horrible diseases.That argument makes no sense. Moreover, the mother is not deciding what constitutes a human, the society and the government is. Yes, we should not be taking human lives, but I will (hopefully) prove to you that abortion is doing no such thing. 

    1. It is just a bundle of cells
    Technically they are right, it is just a bundle of cells, however that is essentially what a human is, a bundle of cells. So i don't exactly understand what they are trying to prove here. I have seen many pregnant woman over the years and that bump is not a simple bundle of cells, it is a living breathing human being.
    So, what do you define as human? Obviously, just saying "its a bundle of cells" is a horrible argument. Let me lay out mine. My argument is this that a fetus is just a bundle of cells that is not sufficiently developed (this is for early term abortions, late term ones are totally different) that killing it should not be counted much more than killing bacteria. Seeing pregnant women does not make you  an expert in the development of a human embryo and an embryo certainly does not breath.  Here are a few points which science considers fetuses to be human enough to be included in the right to life we all enjoy. 

    Tissue separation

    This is the time when tissues in the foetus separate into different types.

    • this covers a lengthy period of time
    • tissue type separation doesn't seem to have any obvious moral - so the choice of this as the key date is probably because the increasingly human appearance of the foetus causes us to feel increasingly protective of the foetus

    Brain activity

    Some people believe life begins at the first sign of brain activity.

    • this is a logical point, as it marks a necessary state for many of the characteristics that some people think a 'moral person' has to possess
    • but brain activity at this stage is no more than a precondition - it doesn't demonstrate that the foetus is actually 'conscious'

    Viability of the foetus

    • Other people take the view that life begins at the stage when the foetus could survive outside the womb.
    • this is the most common criterion used in drafting laws regulating abortion
    • whether a foetus can survive outside the womb depends on:
    • the state of medical science
    • the medical facilities available at a particular location
    • the competence or willingness of the mother (or some other care-giver)
    • the gender of the foetus
    • the race of the foetus
    • there is something unsatisfactory about a being's rights being determined by its sex or race, the state of medical science, the state of medical facilities at a particular location, or the type of mother it has
    2.reproductive choice gives woman power over their own bodies
    first of all, if you really had power over your own bodies, you wouldn't have had sex in the first place, unless you are a rape victim which i will explain later. Second, the baby is not part of your body just because it is in it, just like a person is not a slave just because they are in your property. Now back to the case of rape. Rape victims account for less than 1% of all abortions annually. That is an extremely marginal case. There are several programs to help this extremely marginal and unfortunate group (https://www.rapevictimadvocates.org/programs-services/, https://www.rainn.org/)
    outside of the case of rape, abortion cases, ironically are mostly women who cant control their bodies and have irresponsible sex.
    You are correct about rape, and yes, almost all abortion cases are a result of women who don't think through having unprotected sex, but that isn't very important. Most of the arguments about women having power over their own bodies stem from the idea that if you mess up once, your child, partner, family, and yourself should not suffer. Often times, the child will suffer from an unplanned birth. 23% of abortions are because the parents don't have the money to raise a child. If a child's family cannot provide them with basic privileges, and even providing the very very basics (food, bed, water) stretches the family's finances incredibly thin then it may be reasonable to kill something which in terms of complexity and cell number is more similar to a parasite than a human. Yes, people make mistakes, but the should not be punished for them for the rest of their lives.
    3. It is a constitutional right
    contrary to the roe v wade mishap. the actual constitution does not give woman the power to kill babies (http://constitutionus.com/)
    This is a bad point anyway. It is saying that something is morally correct because the constitution says so. The constitution is just another document. Though it may be one of the most important in the world, it is no better as a moral compass than any other document.
    In conclusion to my opening statement, Abortion is a violation of everyone's right to live, and even though pro choice people tell you that pro choice is pro woman, abortion is the single greatest cause of female deaths annually (pew research), Feminists use the veil of gender equality to push their political agenda, defaming the original idea of feminism and calling everyone who disagrees with their ideas a sexist racist bigoted homophobic hater
    Abortion definitely does not violate every person's right to life as the organism being killed is not a person. I don't know where you get these figures. https://www.cdc.gov/women/lcod/2014/index.htm Unless you count the embryo as a women, which you would be wrong in doing so for the reasons above. So you think that abortions are about gender equality? Show me where any reasonable feminist has said that. Ok, well I must fulfill the stereotype. You sexist racist bigoted homophobic hater. 

    Closing thoughts. Embryos are not human, and women should not have their lives torn apart because then messed up once.The constitution does not matter. Also, before you go on and on about I am just a woman who wants to be able to get away with anything. I am not, I am a male. 
    1Hacker0EvidenceLoveUMajoMILSdlGMGV
  • @THEDENIER

    I'd just like to ask a question. What makes a human a human? 

    I would like a definite answer. What makes me a human and not just an animal? Or am I like a dog and killing anyone doesn't bring any moral implications (I doubt that's your stance though)?

    Oh, and it doesn't have to be physical, it can be non-physical.
  • @THEDENIER

    I'd just like to ask a question. What makes a human a human? 

    I would like a definite answer. What makes me a human and not just an animal? Or am I like a dog and killing anyone doesn't bring any moral implications (I doubt that's your stance though)?

    Oh, and it doesn't have to be physical, it can be non-physical.

    A humans genetic make up defines them as human.

    Check out the definition of Animalia.
    You are an animal. 
    Morality is a merely a concept.
    Human society is bogged down in conceptual nonsense.


    We kill millions of other creatures every day in order to satiate our hunger/greed.
    Does this have moral implications?
    Evidence
  • @Fredsnephew Yes, I agree, but in a moral sense, humans are more complicated. For example, a recently dead body has human genetics, but that can't be considered human morally. Also, a brain dead person who will never wake may be "alive" but they are not clearly entitled to human rights. That is more grey. In general, you make a fair point, but an oversimplified one.
  • My stance - Abortion is wrong except for two circumstances - Rape and result of death for the mother.

    Explanation 1 - The latter, preserving the life of the mother is obvious, we ought to protect people that are alive now first, and then worry about the future generation.

    Explanation 2 - The former...is a bit controversial, you could make the argument that "Rape is bad, but the two issues are unrelated, it doesn't justify the murder of a life or at least a potential life." Sort of, I don't think it justifies abortion, I think that rape puts abortion into perspective. The child and the victim of a rapist are most likely going to meet their end while trying to live a miserable existence. It's basically delaying the inevitable. "But @SnakesOfferingApples, everyone will die one day, should we all just get it over with then?" No!!! Most people that haven't lived through a situation like this can get over misery, you can look back at your family, friends, etc to help you. However, a child of a rapist doesn't have that foundation, as their rapist father/mother is either in jail or is nowhere to be found and the mother/father that is there is an emotional/psychological wreck. It's a setup for failure and/or suicide.

  • My stance - Abortion is wrong except for two circumstances - Rape and result of death for the mother.

    Explanation 1 - The latter, preserving the life of the mother is obvious, we ought to protect people that are alive now first, and then worry about the future generation.

    Explanation 2 - The former...is a bit controversial, you could make the argument that "Rape is bad, but the two issues are unrelated, it doesn't justify the murder of a life or at least a potential life." Sort of, I don't think it justifies abortion, I think that rape puts abortion into perspective. The child and the victim of a rapist are most likely going to meet their end while trying to live a miserable existence. It's basically delaying the inevitable. "But @SnakesOfferingApples, everyone will die one day, should we all just get it over with then?" No!!! Most people that haven't lived through a situation like this can get over misery, you can look back at your family, friends, etc to help you. However, a child of a rapist doesn't have that foundation, as their rapist father/mother is either in jail or is nowhere to be found and the mother/father that is there is an emotional/psychological wreck. It's a setup for failure and/or suicide.

    @SnakesOfferingApples (nice name by the way)
    Example 1: Perfectly reasonable.
    Example 2: So are you saying that if two impoverished teenagers have sex because of a fault in their judgement and then the father leaves the mother shortly afterwords, the situation is different. Your complaints, though somewhat unclear to me, I will take to mean that you think that a rape victim having a child is a burden she cannot withstand, and that this will result if horrible quality of life for both of them. You also say that a child of rape will live a hard life because their parents are separate, and traumatized. Correct, but even if the intercourse is consensual, just ill-advised, and then the parents split up, they are still separate, and in my example, impoverished. This will result in the same quality of life downgrade, so abortion should also be allowed in this context.
  • edited August 2017
    @THEDENIER (Also a nice name)

    1 - Where I was going was because the pregnancy was so sudden and unplanned it tends to lead to poverty, psychological torment, and almost guaranteed death for the child AND mother.

    2 - In terms of a spit up, the birth is not sudden, if a woman gets knocked up and splits up with the dead beat dad, she can seek help and even get child support almost immediately, the situation is not the same at all, because of  effects and especially because of occurrence rarity - many people split up comparative to people raped and knocked up, so much more help will be available to the former.

    P.S - Sorry for the late response, I've been occupied with preparing for school lately.
  • Rodinon said:
    I disdain to categorize this as "politics," because every stinking thing is political now.  What do you mean marriage is political?  What do you mean parenting is political?  What do you mean what I feed my child is political?  Anyhow.

    Abortion.  A popular topic at parties and family Sunday dinners.  A lighthearted icebreaker with strangers at the checkout.  The perfect lead-in question to ask any potential employer.  And it's what we'll be discussing here!  So put on your favorite smooth jazz mix tape, warm up the chocolate fountain, and invite the new neighbors over.  We're talking abortion!  Bring your favorite fondue to pass.  No, wait! Leave that on the table.  It's hot!
    Dear Rodinon.

     The chocolate fountain has solidified and the fondue has gone cold and mouldy on the table.
    And I haven't owned a tape in years.
    The evening was a flop and the neighbours don't ask us over to their place anymore.

    Where do we go from here? 

    Regards.
    Fredsnephew.
    THEDENIER
  • @THEDENIER (Also a nice name)

    1 - Where I was going was because the pregnancy was so sudden and unplanned it tends to lead to poverty, psychological torment, and almost guaranteed death for the child AND mother.

    2 - In terms of a spit up, the birth is not sudden, if a woman gets knocked up and splits up with the dead beat dad, she can seek help and even get child support almost immediately, the situation is not the same at all, because of  effects and especially because of occurrence rarity - many people split up comparative to people raped and knocked up, so much more help will be available to the former.

    P.S - Sorry for the late response, I've been occupied with preparing for school lately.
    @SnakesOfferingApples No problem. Have fun at school. 
    1. I think your first point is true in spirit, though it seems a little exaggerated.
    2. Rape victims often get more support, at least emotionally because it is more rare. We are numbed to things constantly around us, so obviously, the rarer  and more traumatic an event is, the more the victim will more supported. Besides, most children of rape are not sudden. It is pretty clear a woman is pregnant for months before she gives birth. Also, most children of parents that split up before birth are also unplanned. Finally, outside of wedlock, forcing someone to play child support can be very difficult, especially when they are near bankrupt themselves. It costs sizeable legal fees to file all the necessary paperwork, which many cannot afford.
  • @THEDENIER

    1- Yeah maybe emotionally, but there aren't that many options in terms of financial support, this is logical because you want to focus on the majority of the problem - divorce - so most of the funding and help is given to divorce victims.

    2 - It takes more than 9 months to plan a whole entire course of life. Thus the two situations are fundamentally different because when you are in a relationship the thought of having a family with your significant other is a significant one. Knowing this, most people develop preparations for the child, divorce is sudden and kind of an after thought, but there is always the preparation for the big likelihood of having children. What I'm basically saying is that people who are in a relationship, think in terms of possibly having children. Where as a rape victim doesn't have that relationship with her rapist and that could not have been prepared for impregnation before the fact.
  • @SnakesOfferingApples ;
    I'm not talking about divorce, or even necessarily about serious relationships. I am merely saying that if a couple have a child as an accident without ever meaning to have one, this can result in situations in the future similar to those of a rape victim in some ways. I am not addressing serious long term relationships with thoughts to child birth. I'm talking teenagers and young adults in no serious relationship being impregnated due to a one time accident. They may not even be in a serious long term relationship with the father.
  • THEDENIER said:
     I am merely saying that if a couple have a child as an accident without ever meaning to have one, this can result in situations in the future similar to those of a rape victim in some ways.
     I'm talking teenagers and young adults in no serious relationship being impregnated due to a one time accident. They may not even be in a serious long term relationship with the father.
    Ok, my understanding of your argument is that in many ways unexpected children in married couples or just couples are similar in many ways. 

    I agree but let's look at the specifics, abortion is a very important topic so specifics can't be stressed enough. Imagine your life is a temple, what keeps it together are multiple pillars - say for example you lose your job, you say "Oh well I still have my family, I'll find another job" Your temple may be staggering but it stays up because you have many pillars in place.

    An unexpected child may be poor, but it has both of its parents, or its dad might have left but it has a stable household and future. Even if we are talking about teen mothers support is always there from the previous generation (the grandparents of the child), and because teen pregnancy is common throughout the world, unfortunately.

    Let's compare that to the child of a rape victim - They have nothing from the get go, the situation of rape is so isolated that I give abortion a pass in this instance.
  • @SnakesOfferingApples Sorry for the late response, I didn't check this debate and did not get a notification because I was not mentioned. The assumption that if one is a rape victim, their pillars are collapsed, but if one is not a rape victim, there pillars have not is unreasonable. Plenty of rape victims end up having a great deal of public and family support. This is specifically because of the fact that they were raped. Unfortunately, unexpected pregnancy especially outside of wedlock is often looked down upon, and may instead lead to alienation. The assumption of a stable home and future is wrong, especially among families where the parents of an unexpected child are themselves still in school. 
  • WakeWake 123 Pts
    @joecavalry - it certainly is the cold blooded murder of another human but I doubt it is painful. Let's say that it's like the liberals have forced the death sentence to be.
  • WakeWake 123 Pts
    @JuicyMelonTech - within two weeks of inception the fetus is a fully formed human that is at least as human as a 2 year old.
  • WakeWake 123 Pts
    @SnakesOfferingApples - Children throughout history have had children. Why are you acting as if it is unusual? Why do you consign poverty to rape victims? You're really off from reality.
  • FascismFascism 304 Pts
    edited October 2017
    As the saying goes: "If abortion is murder, then ejaculation is genocide." 

    I support abortion in certain cases, but it shouldn't be encouraged. Abortion shouldn't be used as birth control, and it shouldn't be payed by taxpayer money. 
  • WakeWake 123 Pts
    @Fascism - since you don't even understand the meaning of the words you are using why do you think you should have any say in the matter?

    This is what I have been saying about social media - people who don't have a clue can form majorities against people who do.
    DrCereal
  • @Wake
    Fascism said:
    As the saying goes: "If abortion is murder, then ejaculation is genocide." 

    I support abortion in certain cases, but it shouldn't be encouraged. Abortion shouldn't be used as birth control, and it shouldn't be payed by taxpayer money. 
    Which words do I not know of? 

    "This is what I have been saying about social media - people who don't have a clue can form majorities against people who do."

    Then why don't you try to tell me where I'm lacking? This website is different from Reddit or YouTube. It's possible to have civilized debates here. Utilize that fact, and instead of just insulting people, try to actually convince them. 
  • A fetus lacks a developed nervous system. It doesn't even have the biological ability to think, remember or feel. Those are the qualities that define us as humans. Since a fetus lacks those qualities it does not get rights, it especially does not get the right to squat in a women's stomach for 9 months against her will. 
    FascismMissDMeanorEvidenceLoveUSilverishGoldNovaNopeDrCerealFaridNurrahman
  • MissDMeanorMissDMeanor 100 Pts
    edited October 2017
    @Oakchairbc
    If I get into a car crash and go into a coma have I lost my humanity? I cannot think.
  • @Fascism
    Continue comparing a hapliod gamete to a dipiod zygote due to a lack of a high school education. That sentence makes 0 sense. 
    Fascism
  • @MissDMeanor
    Comparing a dipiod zygote to a newborn. 

    No need to be rude. This isn't youtube or reddit. This is a place where a civilized debate can occur. Use that to your advantage to convince people. Insulting them does nothing to convince. 
  • A fetus lacks a developed nervous system. It doesn't even have the biological ability to think, remember or feel. Those are the qualities that define us as humans. Since a fetus lacks those qualities it does not get rights, it especially does not get the right to squat in a women's stomach for 9 months against her will. 
    I take it from your position here that you do not support abortions in the third trimester, since by that point, the nervous system and brain development are well under way.
  • @Fascism Ironically the fact you are not defending your statement mean I have convinced you of the invalidity of that statement, anyways in hindsight that was a bit harsh - I apologize, I'll refrain from that from now on.

    In the end this debate can be broken down to one question, Is a fetus a human? I would argue that yes, a fetus is human therefore abortion is murder. the fertilization of the egg and the creation of the zygote is an important biological landmark, and using that i will argue that a human is anything with 48 (give or take) chromosomes and fulfills most of the requirements life(1). Anyone here that belive that a fetus is a bundle of cell please explain when that "bundle of cells" becomes human, what are the requirements for being a human. the vagina is not a magical doorway to human hood,the fetus has not changed biologically a minute before birth

    (1) A distinctive characteristic of a living organism from dead organism or non-living thing, as specifically distinguished by the capacity to grow, metabolize, respond (to stimuli), adapt, and reproduce
    Fascism
  • MissDMeanorMissDMeanor 100 Pts
    edited October 2017
    Abortion is murder, plain and simple
    Evidence
  • @MissDMeanor ;

    I did defend my claim. You claimed that I was "comparing a hapliod gamete to a dipiod zygote". In response I said you were "[comparing] a dipiod zygote to a newborn." 

    I think a fetus isn't a human because it doesn't have the emotional characteristics of developed humans. A newborn has fear, pain, love, curiosity, greed etc. It makes him human in nature. A fetus doesn't have any of this. A human has feelings, and therefore matters. 

    So what is the difference between an organ and the fetus? Both of them don't have feelings, even though both of them are made by cells. So if you kill a sperm cell, it is the same as killing a fetus. 

    The argument "it's just a bundle of cells" is a crude way to say "It's just a bundle of cells and nothing else." A human is a bundle of cells with feelings. I prefer not to use this argument because all it does is cause confusion. 

    I don't know when exactly, but during a certain point of pregnancy the fetus develops a complex nervous system, which is suspected to even feel pain. There is plenty of time for a woman to get an abortion before this point, however. 
    MissDMeanor
  • @Fascism
    The claim I was referring too was the claim that somehow masturbation is murder if abortion is murder.

    "So if you kill a sperm cell, it is the same as killing a fetus." 
    How many times must I explain the difference between a gamete and a zygote? This cannot be simper.
    Sperm = haploid gamete, 23 chromosomes
    fetus = diploid zygote, 46 chromosomes
    Different things.

    Let us say that the fetus starts to think at the 24 week mark, this is when the frontal cortex develops, most abortions happen before this point. It seems you define humanism as having feelings, so I propose counterexample. Let us say I get into a severe car accident, and I am put into a coma. I can no longer think, I can no longer feel. You know full well that I will get better within a few months. Have I lost my humanity?
  • FascismFascism 304 Pts
    edited October 2017
    @MissDMeanor@MissDMeanor

    I agree that sperm and fetuses are different things, but I still defended it because I pointed out that you were doing the same type of false comparison as me. Fetuses and newborns are different. 

    My point isn't that since you compared a newborn to a fetus, I get to compare a fetus with sperm. My point is that that isn't a valid argument for both sides of the debate. 

    Fetus = no brain
    newborn = brain

    Plus you also compared abortion to neglecting people in comas. There is an obvious difference, but that is not what makes your argument wrong. Just because they are different doesn't make your argument wrong. You are making connections with other things to prove your point. Now I can't just say:
    "Comas happen to people who are born, and abortions happen to unborn fetuses. Therefore your argument is wrong."
    I have to attack and find a major difference in the connection itself. 

    While in a coma you can think. People in coma have been reported to dream. The nervous system is still active when in a coma. It's not exactly like sleeping, but it shares similarities. Your brain still sends signals. Also a person in a coma has had a life before the coma which would have wanted to continue living after the coma. There is no life such as this before the fetus. The fetus doesn't care, and didn't care, nor does it have the ability too. 

    When a fetus is aborted, since it doesn't and never had humanity, abortion is basically stopping the creation of life. Since a coma has a person who previously had a life, taking care of the person is giving the humanity of a person back. 

    So there are two possibilities. Dreaming doesn't count as feelings, or dreaming does count as feelings. I believe that dreaming does count as feelings, because it reflects what the person is going through, and it is also a basic part of humanity, but either way, since abortion has to do with the creation of life, and comas have to do with giving back basic human traits to someone, there is a difference. 
  • @THEDENIER

    I'd just like to ask a question. What makes a human a human? 

    I would like a definite answer. What makes me a human and not just an animal? Or am I like a dog and killing anyone doesn't bring any moral implications (I doubt that's your stance though)?

    Oh, and it doesn't have to be physical, it can be non-physical.

    A humans genetic make up defines them as human.

    Check out the definition of Animalia.
    You are an animal. 
    Morality is a merely a concept.
    Human society is bogged down in conceptual nonsense.


    We kill millions of other creatures every day in order to satiate our hunger/greed.
    Does this have moral implications?
    @Fredsnephew said:  A humans genetic make up defines them as human.
    Check out the definition of Animalia.
    You are an animal.

    Ape, chimp, pig (pork), cow (beef), human (Soylent Green) etc.

    Fredsnephew - Morality is a merely a concept.

    Silly human-animals: "Ooohhh, abortion is sooo cruel!"   Oh Pleeasee, .. why don't you just go and conversate with any male Lyon after a pride takeover. Or watch National Geography and evolve your brain already!

    Fredsnephew - Human society is bogged down in conceptual nonsense.

    Nothing that a strict totalitarian dictatorship won't fix, right buddy?

    Fredsnephew - We kill millions of other creatures every day in order to satiate our hunger/greed.
    Does this have moral implications?

    That's true, we do kill millions of livestock every day around the Flat Earth, so why stop at abortion, why not "slaughter" when poverty, starvation, famine necessitates it?
    What, .. 6 kids, no food? .. Problem solved.
    What "moral implications", meat is meat "just Check out the definition of Animalia, .. You are an animal!"

    Welcome to the "modern technological and scientific age", we have evolved beyond the dumb prehistoric era where Ugg get's horny, grabs his club and goes out of his cave looking for woman, .. oops, sorry, I meant female in heat, bangs Lucy over the head, mates, 9 months later a litter, eats some and keeps the strong looking ones. Yep brothers and sisters, we no longer live in a cave got it!? So stop thinking so 'primitive'!

    We have evolved to building cities and societies, .. we are civilized now with hundreds of different languages, the best educational system ever in millions of years! We have cell phones, planes, trains and automobiles. We are civilized, and when our scientists say "if you've seen meat of one animal, you've seen them all!" then that's what we have to accept, .. which is just part of 'Natural selection', and naturally you want to select the fat juicy "cream filled kind".


    Oakchairbc
  • @Fascism
    The claim I was referring too was the claim that somehow masturbation is murder if abortion is murder.

    "So if you kill a sperm cell, it is the same as killing a fetus." 
    How many times must I explain the difference between a gamete and a zygote? This cannot be simper.
    Sperm = haploid gamete, 23 chromosomes
    fetus = diploid zygote, 46 chromosomes
    Different things.

    Let us say that the fetus starts to think at the 24 week mark, this is when the frontal cortex develops, most abortions happen before this point. It seems you define humanism as having feelings, so I propose counterexample. Let us say I get into a severe car accident, and I am put into a coma. I can no longer think, I can no longer feel. You know full well that I will get better within a few months. Have I lost my humanity?
    Does this mean you would support a ban on abortions after 24 weeks?
  • CYDdharta said:
    @Fascism
    The claim I was referring too was the claim that somehow masturbation is murder if abortion is murder.

    "So if you kill a sperm cell, it is the same as killing a fetus." 
    How many times must I explain the difference between a gamete and a zygote? This cannot be simper.
    Sperm = haploid gamete, 23 chromosomes
    fetus = diploid zygote, 46 chromosomes
    Different things.

    Let us say that the fetus starts to think at the 24 week mark, this is when the frontal cortex develops, most abortions happen before this point. It seems you define humanism as having feelings, so I propose counterexample. Let us say I get into a severe car accident, and I am put into a coma. I can no longer think, I can no longer feel. You know full well that I will get better within a few months. Have I lost my humanity?
    Does this mean you would support a ban on abortions after 24 weeks?

    Umm, .. and maybe bring it back when they turn "teens", .. you know, just in case, keep it legal!?
  • FascismFascism 304 Pts
    edited October 2017
    @CYDdharta Mos
    I'm not sure when exactly the fetus starts to feel physical pain and emotions or when the fetus starts to have neural activity, but if it is at 24 weeks, then yes I don't support abortion after that point. Most abortions take place before this anyways. At most the abortion process takes up to three weeks. This should be plenty of time to think it through and get the abortion process done in most cases, as it already is. 

    I'm pretty sure @MissDMeanor 's argument was that abortion shouldn't be allowed after the sperm and zygote meet. 
  • NopeNope 324 Pts
    When a baby is being aborted it is not all that smart. Is it consias? It does not have many characteristic that make a human human. We do kill other intelligent animals. Then again the baby will be a human and will become a intelligent social consies being (hopefully) regardless of if it's position in the whom. Hey, NO! Step away from that key bored. I know I am bad at spelling and gramer OK. : )
  • @Oakchairbc
    If I get into a car crash and go into a coma have I lost my humanity? I cannot think.
    You never thought to begin with so.
    CYDdharta said:
    A fetus lacks a developed nervous system. It doesn't even have the biological ability to think, remember or feel. Those are the qualities that define us as humans. Since a fetus lacks those qualities it does not get rights, it especially does not get the right to squat in a women's stomach for 9 months against her will. 
    I take it from your position here that you do not support abortions in the third trimester, since by that point, the nervous system and brain development are well under way.
    It doesn't even have the biological ability to think, remember or feel.
    Try reading the whole thing instead of trolling.
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