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Atheist Epistemology

Opening Argument

Can any atheist provide me their rational basis for knowing truth from fiction?
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Status: Open Debate


Arguments

  • Evidence, logic, likelihood.
    Hank
  • Evidence, logic, likelihood.
    Hank
  • No question begging.  How do you know evidence from delusion?  How do you know you are being logiCal?  How do you know the stats?
  • Nothing is for certain in science. NOTHING. Their are always uncertainty. Their is a reason they are called theory's. I believe things when they have the best of evidence. Yes their is a chance that I am wrong. Their always is. As Einstein said you should go with the simplest answer. If their is a 99.99999% chance I am right. Well then I treat it normally as if it were true. I am not necessarily an atheist but I can act like one. I can't prove god does not exist so I won't say he does not exist. But with no evidence to prove he exist I don't bother with him. To say he exits would be to jump to a huge conclusion for no reason. Their are many things you can't prove are not real. But with no reason to say they are I don't bother with them. : )
    Hank
  • How does a Theist know fact from fiction? How does God know fact from fiction?
    DrCereal
  • OOPS! I just realized I am technically not an atheist. I will leave this Debate. Sorry <span>:blush:</span> : )
  • @PowerPikachu21

    No irrational red herrings.  Answer the OP or move on.  Thanks.
    DrCereal
  • How do I know truth from fiction?

    I only know two things: 1. that I can think and 2. that I can perceive. Since the only collection of objects I can perceive is the world, I assume (though do not know) that truths and falsities are determined soley by it. My perceptions and thoughts make up propositions. I check the validity of those propositions with logic (a process which is inherently knowable to me and is impossible to imagine not existing), and I check their continual soundness by perceiving the world. With these propositions and this process, I can determine what is "fact" and what is "fiction".

    (Sorry if this response is confusing, as this is the first time I have thoroughly thought about this matter.)
    Bis das, si cito das.
  • @DrCereal

    I did not ask what you know, but how you know what you claim to know.  You seem to answer with your perceptions, but how do you know they are not the product of your being delusional?
  • @DrCereal

    I did not ask what you know, but how you know what you claim to know.  You seem to answer with your perceptions, but how do you know they are not the product of your being delusional?
    Ah, I reread your original question.

    My rational basis for "knowing" (I would say that it is more of an assumption) what is truth and fiction is that I can not possibly imagine the nonexistence of my process of distinguishing between the two. I can not imagine a world where logic isn't valid (e.g. where the law of contradiction is false); I can not imagine not thinking; and I can not imagine not being able to perceive anything. I thusly must rationally assume that all these things exist and are reliable.

    "You seem to answer with your perceptions, but how do you know they are not the product of your being delusional?"
    The world that I perceive seems to be continuous so there is no actual way for me to distinguish between it being an "actual" or "delusional" world, and since the world does appear to be continuous, it is the world regardless if it is the "actual" or "delusional" world. There is no reason to assume that either is more "real" than the other because the only way they would be different from one another is if I was aware of one being a delusion.

    (Again, sorry. My thoughts are starting to become very hard to convey.)
    Bis das, si cito das.
  • @DrCereal

    So your basis for your knowledge claims is your poor imagination?!?!?!  And your poor imagination not withstanding, one does not have to question logic or perceptions, to question your logic and your perceptions.   I am sorry, but as expected, you have failed to provide me a rational way an atheist can tell truth from fiction.  Sorry.
    DrCereal
  • DrCerealDrCereal 113 Pts
    edited November 2017
    @DrCereal

    So your basis for your knowledge claims is your poor imagination?!?!?!  And your poor imagination not withstanding, one does not have to question logic or perceptions, to question your logic and your perceptions.   I am sorry, but as expected, you have failed to provide me a rational way an atheist can tell truth from fiction.  Sorry.
    I at least expected some refutation.

    It appears I have wasted my time.
    Since you have provided no adequate rebuttal, I will take it upon myself to refute my own argument. I will then come back to provide a better answer.
    Bis das, si cito das.
  • ViceRegent claims he knows truth from fiction, but he's really delusional.
  • @PowerPikachu21

    I am delusional?  Is this true?  How do you know?
  • Can anyone know truth from fiction? I don't anyone can. If I think something is true with rationality, then that's all that matters to me. It doesn't matter if it is actually true or not. This is only to the extent of where the human brain can't comprehend things, so I'm not saying this applies to everything. 
  • @ViceRegent
    How so? I'm simply saying that no one can truly prove that God exists, or God doesn't exist, or we live in a simulation. It is beyond my comprehension just like it is beyond any human's comprehension. If I think I exist, then I exist. That's all that matters to me. It doesn't matter if I don't exist in reality and it's all just a simulation. 
  • @ViceRegent
    This is ad hominem. No need for insults. How do you expect to convince me with insults? This is a civilized debate site. If you want to insult people then go to the youtube comment section. 

    In my argument I stated that:
    "This is only to the extent of where the human brain can't comprehend things, so I'm not saying this applies to everything. "
    My argument only applies to a certain extent. 
    How funny that a dude who admits he cannot fact from fiction makes truth claims he expects me to take seriously.  Did I not say mentally ill?
    Your statement that I admitted to not be able to separate fact from fiction is true, but only in a certain extent. My truth claims are not incomprehensible to the human brain, therefore I can say them without contradiction. 
  • @Fascism

    And now come the non-sequiturs.

    If we taught children logic in government schools, there would be fewer atheists, but then again, the last thing the state wants is an educated population.
    DrCerealFascism
  • AmpersandAmpersand 292 Pts
    edited November 2017
    The OP is making a solipsistic argument. As ever the response to solipsism is "Who cares?"

    It can't be disproven, but at the same time by every observable metric it also doesn't matter.
  • FascismFascism 284 Pts
    edited November 2017
    @ViceRegent
    Care to explain how it is a non-sequitur instead of just saying it is?

    Once again, an ad hominem implying that atheists aren't properly educated. 
  • @Ampersand

    This OP is asking a Q, not making an argument.   And did you really just say the ability to know truth from fiction does not matter?  Yep, that is atheism for you:  irrational and ignorant to the core.
    DrCereal
  • @Fascism

    How can I explain logic to someone who is ignorant of it but so arrogant as to think they know all about it.  Answer the OP, or move on.
    DrCerealFascism
  • No wonder this dude hates the freedom that is capitalism.
    DrCerealFascism
  • @Ampersand

    This OP is asking a Q, not making an argument.   And did you really just say the ability to know truth from fiction does not matter?  Yep, that is atheism for you:  irrational and ignorant to the core.
    If "the truth" is something that is undetectable to all senses, reason, logic, emotion, etc, etc then by definition it is something that has no impact on me.

    Either my observable reality is real or my observable reality is not real but in every conceivable way that  relates to me works as if it were real. Either way I would be foolish to treat it as fake.

    Counter question: Can you provide a rational basis for why you aren't a five year old black Kenyan girl, providing utter certainty that what you believe you experience is not a delusion?
  • @ViceRegent
    @Fascism

    How can I explain logic to someone who is ignorant of it but so arrogant as to think they know all about it.  Answer the OP, or move on.
    I might be ignorant and arrogant, but if you at least try to explain it to me then you can at least show others that you know what you're talking about. As of now all you're doing is spamming ad hominem, without any explanation. In other people's eyes you lost the argument and are just insulting me. 
    Also, quote the statement which I made which convinces you that I am arrogant and ignorant. 

    No wonder this dude hates the freedom that is capitalism.
    This is a completely different argument. Go and argue in my debate about fascism if you actually have a sound argument. This has nothing to do with the current argument. 
    DrCerealMissDMeanorNonCredenti
  • @Ampersand

    How do you know it works?  Or is this claim the product of your deluded thinking?
  • @ViceRegent

    It is as per the definition you seem to be working by. You are insinuating that there is a reality that we may be completely unable to detect through our senses, logic, reasoning, etc, etc yes?

    So from my perspective, what would be the functional difference between a 'real' reality and a 'fake' reality which despite being 'fake' is 100% indistinguishable to every single one of my senses from something that is real?

    Also you didn't answer my question for you: Can you provide a rational basis for why you aren't a five year old black Kenyan girl, providing utter certainty that what you believe you experience is not a delusion?
  • Can you answer my Qs?
  • @ViceRegent

    I did in my previous post. If you feel they aren't adequate responses for some reason, please feel free to explain why so I can either respond in more detail or point our the flaw in your criticism and explain why my original reply was adequate.

    Meanwhile, I already asked you a question before you asked your latest set and you still haven't answered that so please respond in your next reply as this is the third time I have asked it. Can you provide a rational basis for why you aren't a five year old black Kenyan girl, providing utter certainty that what you believe you experience is not a delusion?
  • Please explain how what you said answered my Q.
  • @ViceRegent

    You stated "How do you know it works?  Or is this claim the product of your deluded thinking?" As the latter half is just a baseless insinuation, it can be ignored as it isn't an actual argument.

    I gave my understanding of the point you are trying to make; "You are insinuating that there is a reality that we may be completely unable to detect through our senses, logic, reasoning, etc, etc yes?".

    I then explained how that fit my definition of working: "So from my perspective, what would be the functional difference between a 'real' reality and a 'fake' reality which despite being 'fake' is 100% indistinguishable to every single one of my senses from something that is real?". The answer - not outright stated but implied enough that I feel it doesn't need to me- is that from the perspective of any individual there would have to be no difference. After all, the entire point you are trying to make centres around the conceit that there would be no discernible difference.

    Hence based on your definition, we know it is works for my definition of works because it is essentially tautological - just two different ways of saying the same thing.

    Now for the fourth timeCan you provide a rational basis for why you aren't a five year old black Kenyan girl, providing utter certainty that what you believe you experience is not a delusion and not just ignore this question?
  • Let me rephrase the Q:  how do you know you are not delusional?
  • Let me rephrase the Q:  how do you know you are not delusional?
    Let me rephrase my answer as it basically undermines the basis of why your question matters: If the delusion is in every single way indistinguishable from not being delusional, why should anyone care?

    Also let me rephrase my question: It's clear that you can't offer a response to my question. You can't offer proof that you are not a five year old Kenyan girl and everything you observe is a delusion. However, you still act like you are who you are. Similarily you can't absolutely prove the computer screen in front of you and the conversation in front of you that you are reading right now is real - yet you type and reply and react to it as if it is anyway.

    I've already won the argument because by engaging with reality you have implicitly accepted my argument.
    MissDMeanor
  • Ok, your atheism has left you with no way to know if you are delusional or not.  Thought so.  Got it.  Next?
    DrCerealMissDMeanor
  • For a definition of "delusional" which you have accepted is irrelevant. 
  • This dude says his being delusion is irrelevant to the seriousness with which I should take his claims.  ROFL.
    DrCereal
  • @ViceRegent

    Your definition of delusional has no functional difference with "completely and totally rational and non-delusional".

    Also, by your logic can you rationally prove you are not a paedophile?
  • I have given no definition of delusional, but thanks for proof you are delusional.  Sorry, I am moving on.  
    DrCereal
  • AmpersandAmpersand 292 Pts
    edited November 2017
    @ViceRegent

    So by your own metrics, you cannot outright deny that you are a pedophile? Hmmmm, makes you think....
  • Can no atheist answer this most basic of all philosophical Qs?
    DrCereal
  • Can no atheist answer this most basic of all philosophical Qs?
    A more interesting question is: can you?
    I've seen you ask the question a million times, but I still haven't seen you answer it.
    FascismmissmedicHank
    Bis das, si cito das.
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