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Let's Talk Critically About Sexism

Opening Argument

VaulkVaulk 439 Pts
edited May 2017 in United States
Headlining our debate on Sexism in the United States is the Oxford Dictionary's definition of what "Sexism" means and this will set the tone for the debate to follow:

Sexism: Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Followed by Merriam Webster:

Sexism: prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially :  discrimination against women

In my honest opinion I think the meaning of the word is an indication of where this is going.  While I admit openly that there have been and currently are disparities in equality between Men and Women in the United States...I don't think the inequalities are biased heavily or more heavily against Women.  There's a quiet, hushed side of this equation that has remained unnoticed and shunned for the majority of the History of the U.S.

My point is this:
1. Men have historically been held accountable, responsible, liable and reprehensible more heavily than Women.
2. Men are on the receiving side of more discrimination, prejudicial treatment, stereotyping and bias than Women are.
3. The benefits of being a Man are far outweighed by the benefits of being a Woman in our Country.

My supporting evidence is as follows:

1. The Legal System:
    a. Being a Woman in the U.S. means that you are in a supremely better situation when it comes to criminal defense.  Studies confirm that Women are treated absurdly better than Men in Criminal Court with Men receiving 63% longer sentences on average than Women for the exact same crimes.  Women are also twice as likely to avoid incarceration if convicted than Men.  The Gender gap is SIX TIMES larger than the racial disparity in Criminal Court.  Not to mention that domestic violence by Women against Men is virtually an invisible crime.
    b. From 1927 to 2012 it was not legally possible to be raped as a Man. Reporting non-consensual intercourse with a Woman as a Man to Legal Authorities was met with threats of punishment for false reporting.  Men in the U.S. are historically required to pay child support EVEN WHEN THEY ARE THE VICTIM OF A JUDICIALLY RULED STATUTORY RAPE.
    c. Gender Disparity is undeniable in the Judicial System with Family Courts being the poster child for Bias against Fathers.  With such a high rate of divorce in the U.S. it's no wonder that the Family Court System is overflowing with custody proceedings and although studies show that only 4% of all custody matters in Family Court are contested by the Father, of those 4% (Roughly 96,400 Fathers/yr) a vast majority of the time the Courts award custody to the Mother.
    d. In the U.S. it is a legal requirement that ALL Males at the age of 18 register for selective service.  Failure to do so is a Felony, is actively punishable under law, will prevent you from voting, owning property or getting a job in the U.S.  There is no such requirement for Women nor has there ever been.

2. The Education System:
    a. Being a Male in school means that you are more likely to drop out.  The Education System does not tolerate the predisposition of the Male instinct, boys are judged with undue harshness and with prejudice. 
    b. In the view that has prevailed in American education over the past decade, boys are resented, both as the unfairly privileged sex and as obstacles on the path to gender justice for girls.  However, a review of the facts shows boys, not girls, on the weak side of an education gender gap. The typical boy is a year and a half behind the typical girl in reading and writing; he is less committed to school and less likely to go to college.
    c. There are four times the amount of Scholarships specifically designed for Women only as opposed to Scholarships designed only for Men.
    d. In the U.S., 60 Women will attend college for every 40 Men.

3. The Economy:
    a. The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that the unemployment rate for Women is 20% lower than for Men.  Instead of addressing the issue, the government actually gives businesses owned by Women special preferences in obtaining Government contracts and offers tax-payer backed small business loans for Women only.
    b. In the workplace, you will find mentor programs, specialized training and fast-track options that are exclusively for Women while no such programs exist for Men.  This is mainly due to the presumption that Men have an upper hand in the economy while none of the evidence supports it.
    c. Men are pressured into studying "high paying/high return" majors such as engineering, finance, CS etc. because they are expected to support a family and earn enough to do so.
4. The Social World:
Lastly, the word "Coward".  This is a prime example of Sexism in the United States.  Have you ever heard a Woman referred to as a "Coward"?  You most likely never will.  The term is exclusively used to describe a Man who lacks the courage to do something he should do. 

Picture this:

A Mother is driving her Mini-van down the highway with her child inside when she loses control after one of her tires runs flat.  The Mini-van flips over uncontrollably and comes to a stop upside-down.  The vehicle catches fire and the Mother, fearing for her life, crawls out and cannot get near the vehicle without setting herself aflame.  After several attempts she backs away from the vehicle due the the sheer heat and her child dies in the fire.  Is she a "Coward"?  Of course not.  But if it were the Child's Father...well that's a different story.  Say the Father tried but after realizing he would be fatally burned decided to run away from the vehicle, leaving his child inside....yep...he's a Coward.  This is Sexist Culture.  "Women and Children first".

  1. Is there Sexism in the United States?

    13 votes
    1. Yes, mostly against Women
    2. Yes, mostly against Men
    3. No
"If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".

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  • WhyTrumpWhyTrump 216 Pts
    @Vaulk, wow! That is a truly amazing debate.  I think you maybe right, I never thought about it this way, but your argument really convinced me. You get my persuaded reaction!
    I have a feeling though that @melanielust would like to debate with you on this one :)

    WhyTrump - a good question
  • VaulkVaulk 439 Pts

    Don't get me wrong, I know there's sexism out there against Women, I know they were excluded from a great deal of benefits in our Country for a long time.  But in today's United States, there are people that would have us believe that the plight of Woman is the same Plight as the Slaves and it's simply not so.  While we still need to adjust our sight picture in regards to equality...things aren't NEARLY as bad as some people make them out to be and even then...it's not like Women are the only ones dealing with inequalities...they're just the ones yelling the loudest about it.
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".

  • agsragsr 816 Pts
    @Vaulk, I also agree with @WhyTrump that you've done a great job with this debate. I still think that sexism against both men and women definitely exists.  In US somewhat less than other countries, but it is here for sure.  I agree that many perceive it to be mostly an issue against women, but as you explained it is both.  Before your debate I thought it was 80% against women and 20% against men.  I would now say 65% against women and 35% against men.
    @melanielust, where are you? Lol

    Live Long and Prosper
  • I agree with @Vaulk , sexism against gender changes and varies from men to women.
  • agsragsr 816 Pts
    I was thinking about it more last night, and one counterpoint @Vaulk to your agrument is lack of equal pay for women.  Not convinced how real that is, but there are lots of lawsuits about gender equality pays. Some may argue that it is due to variety of factors, but that is pretty objective evidence about gender equality if proven.  I would say that pay is one of most important factors in sexism.
    Live Long and Prosper
  • @agsr @WhyTrump THANK YOU for bringing this debate to my attention and @Vaulk you made an INCREDIBLE argument!

    So here's where I stand - there is sexism on either side, towards both women and men, in many different areas of society. However, the degree of sexism towards either sex is such that neither is to be considered exclusively oppressed or at a disadvantage in our society. Let's go through all of your points.

    1. Legal - yes, it's true that men tend to have a disadvantage in the legal system. However:
    A) In terms of criminal courts and men receiving longer sentences, one could easily argue that crimes against women by men do not receive enough attention or serious treatment. A good example of this is the famous Brock Turner case, when a mal
    B) Can't argue with that...male rape is not taken seriously and I have always been upset by that. I don't really believe there is a rape culture against women either.
    C) Judicial system - same with above, very good point.
    D) Registration for the selective service was enacted with the notion of biological differences in mind. Given that men are on average stronger than women physically, they are more likely to perform well in combat, so it is crucial for our strongest to be out fighting. However, there has been a lot of talk in Congress about whether or not women should be required to register for the draft; the bill was put in action, then pulled, and is currently being reviewed. See the note at the beginning of this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/15/us/politics/congress-women-military-draft.html?_r=0

    2. Education
    A) Being more likely to drop out is no evidence for implicit sexism against men in administrations - often that is the result of a personal choice or outside factors, but it doesn't automatically mean sexism. When you say the "male instinct" I assume you are talking about the male nature to be more aggressive in /certain/ situations due to testosterone. I do not think this is quite a viable argument because men should be held accountable for their actions just as much as females, disregarding inherent nature. An example of how the nature of females is not tolerated would be strict dress codes.
    B) Males are indeed less likely to go to college, in SOME areas of the country, which is a very recent development, I won't deny that. But as for men being behind in education, that is a mass generalization. For example there are still more men in math, science, and technology courses than women, and as a result men tend to dominate scientific fields in the real world.
    C) I did not know that about scholarships, excellent point. One could also argue however that many sports scholarships offer full rides, but only for male sports, not females; there is certainly a disparity there.
    D) Again, is there evidence that such statistical disparities are the result of sexism against men? I would like to hear why you think so.

    3. Economy
    A & B are great points!! I do have a problem with C though. If it's true that men are pressured into being the money-earners, then it must be true that women are pressured to stay at home, foster the cult of domesticity, be mothers, and not be the breadwinners. Is that a bias against men, or women? It's simply an echo of those once-enforced gender roles that no longer strictly exist, but a woman can succeed and a man can stay at home if they really wish it. Both might receive some social backlash, but that shouldn't stop either of them.

    4. Social
    Sexism includes stereotyping, and men and women are both victims of this on a widespread scale in our nation. If you say that men are often called one insult over the other, you could argue the same for women. Have you ever heard a man referred to as slut? Or b*tch? There are a lot more examples. Ultimately those little societal nuances resulting from traditional gender roles manifest in small, nearly inconsequential ways, but it just goes the same way for both sexes.

    But you have truly convinced me about a lot of things. There is sexism on both sides, sometimes inconsequential, sometimes significant. It seems that men have a severe disadvantage legally and in a few other areas too. Congrats on earning my first "persuaded"
  • ale5ale5 226 Pts
    @melanielust, and @Vaulk , you both made great points and "persuaded" me both. :)

    The topic of economy point c is interesting, as I can see it both ways. I mostly agree with vaulk on that one.  

    The key point to remember, no matter how much sexism we have now in the US.
    1) It significantly improved from lets say mid last century
    2) it is much better than places like Middle East or Eastern Europe. 
    It's kind of fun to do the impossible
    - Walt Disney
  • VaulkVaulk 439 Pts
    edited May 2017
    @agsr, I've been big researcher on the "Gender pay gap" and from what I've discovered it would seem that the estimations and calculations relating to the outcome and determination of the gap were wholly generalized and substandard in regards to specifics.  The United States Congress Joint Economic Committee completed the first ever evaluation of the pay gap in the United States and determined that while inequities were gradually decreasing...the pay gap seemed to never change.  This could easily be another debate but suffice to say that after reviewing the data used in the final report, there's no doubt that errors were made in the outcome due to the generalizations that were accounted for.  Example: The time a Woman takes off work without pay to have children was included instead of excluded when calculating possible gross annual income.

    @melanielust , I'll try to address your in order.

    1. "Crimes against women" are considered especially heinous in criminal court and are treated as such.  This is evident in that Women can send Men to prison without any physical evidence by crying "Rape" even when it didn't happen.  You might be surprised about how often this happens and usually it's suppressed so that it doesn't become a huge story for fear of "Creating an atmosphere of victim blaming", which is ridiculous in that if it didn't happen then the victim is the one that was sent to prison but far be it from me to use common sense lol.  Meanwhile to suggest that a Man could accuse a Woman of Raping him without any physical evidence and get ANYWHERE with his allegation is absolutely preposterous.  There's not a prosecutor in the U.S. that would take the case to court unless the alleged victim was under the age of 18 and it was statutory rape...and even then you might be surprised how many statutory rape allegations by Males are dismissed by prosecutors for fear of losing the case.  Because Men generally don't win in those cases.

    2. I probably didn't do as well as I could have on the education portion but I also had to exclude over 2,000 characters from the post (The limit was really irritating).  You're absolutely right, the simple fact that boys do worse than girls in school isn't any indicator of sexism.  My reference to the "Nature of boys" was not exclusively to their testosterone, it was actually more directed towards the way the Male brain works and the way Males learn.  Educational experts explain it much better than I do but it's essentially this: Males have been groomed mentally for however long you happen to believe the Earth has been here and in that time our brains have adapted to certain ways of life, testosterone plays a part but can't account for the way we are neurologically wired.  To sum it up, instead of expecting schools to be ready for male students, we expect male students to be ready for schools.  I won't list out the statistics but if you find a moment, read the Atlantic article, it was well written and probably sums it up better than the huffington post's article which is mostly subjective.

    3.  Again I didn't elaborate well on this due to the limit in characters but it originally included a reference to how Men die at younger ages typically than Women and a vast majority of Male mortality rates are attributed to stress related causes of death.  Now I don't know so I won't assume anything, but I could suppose that it's possible that being a stay at home Mother could cause equal or greater stress than being a full-time career Man but I doubt any statistics would support it.  The reference to high paying studies in school was related to the jobs that require these fields of study and Indiana State University just completed their research into the relationship between high paying jobs and high mortality rates.  This included reports of being more likely to die younger and to be unhealthy due to stress and high demands.  To wrap this up, yes society has unfair expectations for both sexes, in my attempt to point out the inequalities specifically afflicting Men I listed this because while I'm sure there are consequences for Women in regards to being home-makers or full-time Mothers...they usually don't include dying young.

    4.  Again you're right on this one, there are a variety of insults for Men that you won't hear for Women and vice a versa however, these insults are gender specific and I'll explain how that's important in this debate.

    1. Slut:
    a.  A woman who has many casual sexual partners.
    b. A woman with low standards of cleanliness.

    You cannot call a Man a "Slut" because the term is gender specific.

    2. :
    a. A female dog, wolf, fox, or otter. (Formal)
    b. A spiteful or unpleasant woman. (Informal)

    Again this terminology is gender specific.  While both of these words are slang ( in informal form only) they are none-the-less accepted as gender specific terms that are not interchangeable with Men.  However the term "Coward" is:

    3. Coward:
    a. A person who is contemptibly lacking in the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things.
    b. Adjective - Excessively afraid of danger or pain.

    The word is Old French derivative and is a reference to a frightened animal with its tail between its legs and is absolutely not gender specific.  This is a gender neutral word that technically can be used to describe a Man or a Woman...but we all know better than that lol.  Socially, it is unacceptable to refer to a Woman as a "Coward" for any reason in any circumstances simply because doing so would present itself as "Unfair" to a Woman.

    Lastly @ale5 , and this mostly goes for everyone but I happen to agree with your point.  I believe that as a Nation, Society and Culture...the United States has progressed further in the ways of eliminating sexism than any other place in the World.  Our advances in equality, systems we've put into place and the actions we are taking as a Nation should probably be emulated throughout the World with respect to what's not currently working very well.  This doesn't mean that sexism doesn't exist, we all know it's there...we all know that one person that you just barely tolerate out of kindness who's an insufferable sexist pig.  Speaking of which, "Sexist Pig" is definitely exclusive for Men and I don't think there's an equivalent for Women lol.

    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".

  • melefmelef 65 Pts
    I agree with @vaulk . Many protest, both peaceful and violent assist in the process of elimination of Sexism in the united States. This can spread to a global scale as protest continue and there is media traction.
  • CovenyCoveny 417 Pts
    I guess I’m going to have to weigh in on this… great.

    Your points:
    1. Men have historically been in charge, so yes they have been responsible, blah, blah, blah. Historically I’ve been more accountable, responsible, liable, and reprehensible than my children too. Moving on

    2. Men receive more prejudicial treatment? So you’re going to “prove” men have unwarranted opinions about them. Ok.

    3. Wording is a bit strange on this one but women get more benefits than men is another thing you’re going to “prove”.

    1. Legal
    1a – 63% longer sentencing for men which is six times larger than the racial disparity. The racial disparity is 10% then? Strange Black men constitute 6 percent of the US adult population but are approximately 35% of the prison population. So this is racial issue more than it’s a sex issue.

    1b – It’s legal now, and women are 14 times more likely to report experiencing rape at some time in their lives. (you REALLY need to stay away from rape if you want to show how privileged women are)

    1c – The “tender years” laws have been overturned which gave females defacto custody, but I’ll concede judges are lazy, and tend to side with the female by default still. (even though they shouldn’t)

    1d – Women are not ALLOWED in direct combat roles, so they can’t register for the draft because they aren’t ALLOWED to. Women have been fighting to be allowed in combat and as of 2016 they are now allowed to choose any military occupation. The first three women completing Marine training were not ALLOWED to serve in the infantry though. 

    2 Education
    2a – They drop out, but get paid more. More likely to be CEOs. More likely to be risk takers, and go outside of the system. This is as much of a win for them as a loss.

    2b – And you quote directly from the Atlantic which doesn’t link where it’s getting these opinions. The idea that teachers “resent” the boys in the class is unfounded, you have no proof, and the same holds true for this whole point. And we could have a whole debate about how useless college is.

    2c – First off I’ve never even heard of “nerdwallet” and I don’t see them as a creditable source, but this is like the ONLY source I can find on scholarships broken down by gender. You’ll need to find a more reputable site/research. 2012 was the first year women our enrolled over men in college in 40 years. I was able to find something from 2012 that broke down grants amounts in 1995 at:
    Male Any – 4,145, Need – 3,798, Non-need – 3,884
    Female Any – 4,486, Need – 4,137, Non-need – 3,813
    I wouldn’t think scholarships would be that different, and the numbers don’t look anywhere near this 4X number. Taken that in 1995 there were more men in college than women, it’s understandable if they were getting a bit more. (though it doesn’t really look like they are getting anything substantial)

    2d – Not sure where you are getting that 50% more women attend college than men, but it’s WRONG. Here is a link from Pew in 2014. Now I will concede that slightly more women (71% to 61%) are enrolling in college, I will still refer you back to how mean are bigger risk takers, AND how college is useless. 

    3 Economy
    3a –LIE – They are the same in Apr 2017, and 4.2 to 4.3 in May 2017. The biggest the “gap” ever gets is 0.3 since May 2016 which is only 6%. (not even close to 20%)

    3b – Women specific mentor programs, training, and fast-track? Where? I’ve NEVER seen this. I’ve seen jobs that have this, but any males in these professions get the same programs, training, and fast-track. (nursing being the example that comes to mind)

    3c – Again you have no proof on this, but this is the MAJOR reason men have all the money, and therefore all the power. This is a capitals society, it’s in men’s best interest to go into these high paying professions. On top of that there is a LOT of pressure to get women into these fields. 

    Social World
    4a – Women aren’t called coward are you just not listening?

    1a – Not sexist, racist
    1b – Better for men, then women
    1c – Better for women, then men
    1d – Better for men, then women

    2a – Wash
    2b – No proof
    2c – No proof
    2d – Wash

    3a – LIE
    3b – No proof
    3c – Better for men, then women

    Social World
    4a – Smaller lie

    Ok so out of your 12 points you scored on one and lost on three. Now lets look at some OTHER stats which are in favor of men.

    5a – Wage gap – Women still make between 5-8% less than men doing the same job.

    6a – Opportunity gap – How many female CEOs do you see running around again?

    7a – Killed by your partner - 72% of all murder-suicides involve an intimate partner; 94% of the victims of these murder suicides are female.

    8a – Molestation – girls are 4 times more likely to be molested that boys

    9a – All male role models in books (not listed video games, and movies but it’s the same) 

    10a - Objectification where women are judged by their looks rather than their minds.

    I’m not using the stereotypes that makes boys to be creative and adventurous while women must be calm and restrained because I couldn’t find the article.

    So point #2 and #3 are not in any way proven true, and if even if I did give you the ones you have no proof for, you still don't have enough points, and that's not even saying that none of these points matter as much as money in a capitalist society, and in that arena men dominate women. Money is power. Money is freedom. In a capitalist society money > all. 
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