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Trump sincerely wants to make US better

Opening Argument

I will Debate that President Trump sincerely wants to make our country better.  
joecavalrypooterumcakeaarong
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Status: Open Debate


Arguments

  • Yes, Trump is very patriotic and truly wants to make America better for the county and people, not money.
    DebateIslander and a DebateIsland.com lover. 
  • He sincerely wants to make HIS image of the USA better.  Meaning he wants to make more money, have hot women, play the game of the dealmaker, be a celebrity, be the best (personally), be loved when he wants loved and feared when he wants feared, and to be the loudmouth who can tell it like it is and just laugh when it offends someone.  That's his America.

    Does he want middle America to thrive?  That depends.  It depends on whether their thriving in any way infringes on he himself thriving.  He can speak out for things like coal because he really doesn't have any money riding on it.  But then again, if the people who really do want to give him money or spend money at his resorts all said screw the coal people and we'll make you a better deal, he'd take the better deal.  Because it's really all about him.

    Mark my words, he will never live anywhere that does not serve his life of luxury, and he only needs the common man for suckering votes, because none of you are ever going to spend the type of money he wants paid at his properties.  Indeed when he was confronted over his cabinet makeup he went out of his way to make it clear he only wants rich people around him because anyone who isn't is just a loser, and why would you want losers in charge?
  • Love the new menu! Trump is a patriotic American and wants to fix the country.
  • Trump is an abusive daddy not a neglectful daddy.

    This doesn't mean he's a good daddy.
    I come to debate, I stay to troll,
    I leave to think, I return to brawl.
  • I'm honestly just lost on what this debate is about. How, exactly, can you prove that someone sincerely wants to accomplish a given goal? We can't "look at what's in his heart," as Kellyanne Conway once famously said, so that means we're out of luck when it comes to understanding his internal thought process. That makes this question impossible to answer because it means that all we can do is look at the words he says and the actions he's taken, and let's face it, anyone who is biased for or against the president will be able to cherry-pick statements he's made that will fit their view of what he actually wants. Especially when it comes to actions, there's a substantial amount of subjectivity that goes into assessing the intents behind them. We can't evaluate them based on effects either because that has nothing to do with whether or not Trump intended to do something beneficial for the country.

    So, I'll just put this out there: can anyone here realistically assess Trump's intentions? I mean, so far, @love2debate, @joecavalry, @yolostide, and @someone234 have all just asserted their positions. @Grenache has spelled his position out a little more, but it's still just a long series of assertions about what motivates Trump without any support. Perhaps each of you would find some way to support your positions based on what he's actually done or said, but I can't for the life of me figure out how that would demonstrate his sincerity, or lack thereof.
  • I agree with the proposition.


  • GrenacheGrenache 57 Pts
    edited January 23
    @whiteflame It is fair to say we all are making assertions and stating opinions.  But then again that's politics, isn't it?  And nobody is more quick to make assertions and state bold opinions than Trump is himself.

    I still think what I wrote is fair because he most definitely is a wealthy man who has surrounded himself with other wealthy people and spent his first year rebuilding Washington to get the taxes and regulators and evironmental concerns out of their way so they can make even more money.  How can that NOT be Trump's America?  And the fame and center of attention component is also something he wears with pride and cultivates himself.
  • @whiteflame the funniest part of this is Trump will understand our assertions but your eloquent defense can't be comprehended by his three-word-sentence brain.
    I come to debate, I stay to troll,
    I leave to think, I return to brawl.
  • edited January 23
    @Grenache Your description of suckering the common man for votes fits the Clintons much better than Trump.  When they left the White House, Hillary said they were flat broke.  Did they decide to live with the common folk?  Perish the thought, they started a "non-profit" and bought 4 mansions.  Then Hillary accepted the position on Secretary of State under Barrack Obama, someone else who will NEVER live amongst the common folk ever again, and income inequality rose to nose-bleed levels.  With the best economy in decades, historically low minority unemployment, exploding consumer confidence, and a reduction of income taxes; Trump is more than the common man could have hoped for.
  • @CYDdharta Because taxation is theft and only the undeserving claim benefits right? :)
    I come to debate, I stay to troll,
    I leave to think, I return to brawl.
  • edited January 23
    @CYDdharta Because taxation is theft and only the undeserving claim benefits right? :)
    Huh?!?  Maybe you can think of it as a charitable gift if you put a smiley face on the check.
  • @Grenache

    I disagree. I'm not here to just assert my opinion. If my goal was to support or oppose this resolution, I'd provide evidence or at the very least substantial warrants behind that position. I think stating that we should hold ourselves, as debaters, to a better standard than that is not a stretch.

    I'm not here to defend Trump, but your argument is, at best, tangential to the topic at hand. You're essentially asserting that Trump DOES want to make the US better, but that it's his version of "better." Maybe your argument is that that version isn't actually better,  but that's a whole other argument. We're talking about intent here, not the results of his actual policies or personnel selection. 
  • @someone234 Defense? Defense of what? I'm arguing that assessing Trump's sincerity based on any metric is not sufficient to either support or negate the motion. Whether Trump can understand that isn't important because we can.
  • @whiteflame

    One way is by reviewing the results, which are nothing less than spectacular.
  • @SuzyCreamcheese

    Pray tell, how does that allow us to assess the sincerity of Trump's motives? I'm honestly asking because I can't for the life of me understand it. Let's assume that every single policy direction Trump has taken and will ever take is successful in invigorating the country and improving things for every single person. Does that show his sincerity? Do you have to be sincere to be successful? Or, if your point is that everything he's done has been spectacularly awful, then the same applies. Does the lack of success show a lack of sincerity?
  • VaulkVaulk 339 Pts
    edited January 24
    @whiteflame

    The answer to your questions

     whiteflame said:
    @SuzyCreamcheese

    Does that show his sincerity?  Does the lack of success show a lack of sincerity?
    Is yes.

    If you state that you want the invigorate the U.S. Economy and then you take action and succeed in invigorating the U.S. economy...then this is a prime example of your actions reflecting your sincere intentions.  We have but actions to rely upon in all instances of opinion regarding people's sincerity of intention...there's not another metric of measurement.  If someone says "I love America" then we have but to evaluate the actions of that person, and if their actions reflect their ideology then we can deduce that they are sincere in their intentions.

    Likewise if you say that you want to invigorate the U.S. economy and then you fail to act in any way to do so and consequently fail...then YES...we can safely deduce that the actions of that person do NOT reflect their intent and they are therefor insincere about their desire to invigorate the economy.

    It's that simple.
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • @SuzyCreamcheese

    Pray tell, how does that allow us to assess the sincerity of Trump's motives? I'm honestly asking because I can't for the life of me understand it. Let's assume that every single policy direction Trump has taken and will ever take is successful in invigorating the country and improving things for every single person. Does that show his sincerity? Do you have to be sincere to be successful? Or, if your point is that everything he's done has been spectacularly awful, then the same applies. Does the lack of success show a lack of sincerity?
    If you're really interested, Trump laid out almost all of the policies he's pursuing and explained his reasoning in his 2012 book "Time To Get Tough: Make America Great Again".
  • @whiteflame
    Unless he's sincerely trying to ruin the US and is making a complete disaster of it, then yes, results are an indicator of sincerity.
  • VaulkVaulk 339 Pts
    edited January 24
    @SuzyCreamcheese

    As far as making the U.S. a better place, Trump has done some amazing things...most of which won't find the light in our current Media save a few outlets.

    He recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Four American presidents promised to do it, but only one actually did. This is why the American people elected Trump. He does what he promises to do, for better or for worse — in this case, definitely for the better. 

    He got NATO allies to kick in $12 billion more toward our collective security. Decades of pleading by the Bush and Obama administrations failed to get NATO allies to meet their financial commitments to the alliance, but Trump's tough talk and reticence to affirm America's Article V commitment did the trick. NATO is stronger as a result.

    He has virtually eliminated the Islamic State's physical caliphate. Trump removed the constraints Obama placed on our military and let it drive the terrorists from their strongholds.

    He admitted he was wrong on Afghanistan and reversed Obama's disastrous withdrawal. In a rare admission, Trump declared: "My original instinct was to pull out. ... But all my life, I've heard that decisions are much different when you sit behind the desk in the Oval Office. ... A hasty withdrawal would create a vacuum for terrorists."

    He enacted historic tax and regulatory reform that has unleashed economic growth. Trump signed the first comprehensive tax reform in three decades and removed the wet blanket of Obama-era regulations smothering our economy. We are now heading into our third consecutive quarter of above 3 percent growth.  Something that Obama said couldn't be done.  Boosted by US economy figures and a global markets boom, the Dow Jones stock market index hit a record high, passing the 25,000 mark for the first time.  Markets in the US had been boosted by the Republicans’ tax reforms and job growth figures. It means the Dow has surged by more than 31 per cent since Mr Trump’s inauguration.

    The stimulation of the economy has resulted in the absolute lowest unemployment rate in 17 years.  Specifically Women's unemployment is the lowest in 18 years.

    Most importantly, and this is just my opinion, he kept Hillary Clinton out of the Oval Office.  

    Trump's definitely not a popular guy, in fact I'd say safely that most people think he's an A$$hole, but the President isn't in that position to be a "Yes man" to the citizens of our Country.  We don't elect presidents to pander to our wants...we put them there to make the tough decisions based on what's best for our Country.  That being said...he's a Human being and he's not perfect...at least he's not doubling the U.S. debt and telling everyone that it's for the best.

    No one cares that he said "Sh!thole Countries", if he even did.  No one cares that he tweets things that people find offensive.  No one cares that he fans the flames on sensitive topics.  And when I say "No one cares" I mean that no one of any consequence spends more than 10 minutes either being offended or shrugging their shoulders at petty things Trump says.  It's inconsequential and if it wasn't...something would have been done about it already...so far nothing has.
    "If there's no such thing as a stupid question then what kind of questions do stupid people ask"?

    "There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

    "Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".


  • @CYDdharta, I get accused of being off topic but then the pro-Trump side brings in the Clintons.

    I'm not pro-Clintons.  I'm not pro-Democrat.  In fact I'm a moderate independent and believe both major parties have been screwing the public and blocking out attempts to stop them.  
  • @whiteflame, Oh please, this debate heading smacks of inviting people to express their opinions.  There is no frame up at the top which says please insert a link to a study with a verifiable metric or else don't bother to post.  You're just trying to answer valid criticisms by defining them out of the scope.  That technique does not persuade me nor any other serious critic of Trump.
  • Vaulk said:

    If you state that you want the invigorate the U.S. Economy and then you take action and succeed in invigorating the U.S. economy...then this is a prime example of your actions reflecting your sincere intentions.  We have but actions to rely upon in all instances of opinion regarding people's sincerity of intention...there's not another metric of measurement.  If someone says "I love America" then we have but to evaluate the actions of that person, and if their actions reflect their ideology then we can deduce that they are sincere in their intentions.

    Likewise if you say that you want to invigorate the U.S. economy and then you fail to act in any way to do so and consequently fail...then YES...we can safely deduce that the actions of that person do NOT reflect their intent and they are therefor insincere about their desire to invigorate the economy.

    It's that simple.
    So, In that case, I have a few more questions for you. If someone states that they want to accomplish a certain task and is not successful in doing so, are they inherently insincere? Your argument seems to be that the combination of stated intentions and results shows sincerity, so is failure to accomplish a stated goal a sign of insincerity? What if that failure is not a result of their actions, but rather, the actions of others? Looking at it from the other side of the coin, what if their stated intents are brought to fruition by others besides themselves? Are they still sincere? 

    Beyond that, how can we assess the sincerity of an immeasurable or complex intention? In this case, we're talking about the desire to make the US better. It's partially a matter of the economy, so that is a measurable metric. But how do we measure betterment of foreign or domestic policy? Can we even measure those without inputting a substantial amount of subjectivity regarding what is "good" policy and what is "bad" policy? Maybe that's a decent basis for debate, but then the question morphs from "Does Trump sincerely want to make the US better?" to "Has the Trump presidency been net beneficial to the US?" Maybe the two are intimately tied together, though that seems to turn away from Trump's personal intentions.
  • CYDdharta said:
    If you're really interested, Trump laid out almost all of the policies he's pursuing and explained his reasoning in his 2012 book "Time To Get Tough: Make America Great Again".
    So your argument is that his book demonstrates his sincerity? In that case, is he insincere if any of the policies he's taken or will take don't match what was stated in the book?
  • @whiteflame
    Unless he's sincerely trying to ruin the US and is making a complete disaster of it, then yes, results are an indicator of sincerity.
    And how should we measure those results? Which results should we care about most? How do we assess if he's "trying to ruin the US"? If actual harm comes to the US while he's in office, regardless of whether or not he precipitated it, would that show a lack of sincerity on his part? Do good results brought about by other people (say, Congress) show his sincerity? Or can we only measure his sincerity by the success of the policies he's clearly articulated and pursued himself?
  • Grenache said:
    @whiteflame, Oh please, this debate heading smacks of inviting people to express their opinions.  There is no frame up at the top which says please insert a link to a study with a verifiable metric or else don't bother to post.  You're just trying to answer valid criticisms by defining them out of the scope.  That technique does not persuade me nor any other serious critic of Trump.
    I never said that no one could express their opinions. I'm saying that expressing those opinions doesn't answer the question at hand. You're welcome to engage in whatever debate you want to have, but I'm honestly interested in how we assess Trump's sincerity. I'm also not trying to convince you of anything - hell, I'm a pretty avid critic of Trump myself. If you've got valid criticisms, though, I would hope you'd do more than just assert them. I do think any debate (regardless of the framing) is enhanced by supporting your arguments. If you want to just present your opinion, be my guest. Most of the people here are doing it, too. I just don't think that's much of a debate.
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