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God doesn't exist - Change my mind
in Religion

By PyromanGamingPyromanGaming 63 Pts
I have always wondered why so many people believe in god because I have not seen any good arguments for his existence. I think that because this could be life or death I should remain open to opposition. You can argue for any religion, I should just let you know that I don't know too much about religions other than Christianity and Islam. I really appreciate anyone who wants to step in and challenge me as this will help me with my understanding of religions and I think that I can take some things out of this.

Thank you
  1. Do you believe in god?

    31 votes
    1. Yes
      61.29%
    2. No
      38.71%
About Persuade Me

Persuaded Argument

  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 726 Pts
    Winning Argument ✓
    Belief in God's existence is not based on rigorous logic, it is rather a consequence of traditions and folklore. You are correct in that there are no good arguments for God's existence - however, it does not mean that belief in God is impossible.

    If you study mythologies and religions of various cultures, for example: Greek mythology and religion, Norse mythology, Christian religion, Islamic religion, Ancient Egyptian religion, Jamaican voodooism and Kenyan shamanism - you will see that they all contain a lot of stories that not only cannot be scientifically verified, but they often are even obviously exaggerated. For example, in the Norse mythology, Odin and his two brothers killed the giant Ymir and used his remains to create the world, mountains forming from his bones. You could ask: "How did they know this? Did they really believe in such an obviously nonsensical story?" The answer is yes and no. Vikings were not stupid, they understood very well that these tales were likely not true - however, they consciously integrated them into their world view, because the tradition demanded it, because they wanted to conform with the society they lived in, to abide by certain rules and beliefs, and following the Norse mythology was the best way to feel belonging to the society.

    Islam was born as a tool for uniting people to facilitate smoother conquest of the surrounding lands, which was the primary activity of Muhammad: the resulting religion formed a core of the society and made sure that the people worked together towards the common goal. Similarly, Christianity was a product of a cult that was interested in taking power in Rome and uniting the society under the new ideology, and the belief in the single God served to facilitate those goals. Egyptian religion formed as an attempt to stabilize the society by attributing sacred legitimacy to the Pharaoh, preventing societal division and unrest. And in general, historians believe that religions and proto-religions, such as shamanism, were a response to the demand for stability in primal societies, including the demand to prevent violent struggles for power. Unity and stability were always the inherent factors facilitating religious development, and it is no different today.

    When you take this all into account, you can see why religions and belief in Gods is so popular even today, despite all the advancements of science and philosophy. Religions will probably play some role for as long as a society exists. More individualistic people like us do not feel the need to conform with arbitrary traditions and beliefs, but collectives tend to look for banners to unite under, and folklore and religion are some of the most convenient banners available for this purpose.


    PyromanGamingEvidenceEmeryPearsonBaconToeswith_all_humilityMr_BombasticErfisflat
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  • Thank you for your ideas on this topic. I’ve always wondered why these religions occurred exactly in the first place, but I never knew exactly. I watched this video series on YouTube called “Philosophical Failures of Christian Apologetics by AntiCitizenX, which in part 10 talks about how he thinks religion was invented where people thousands of years ago would attribute forces to agents or entities, which caused people to worship water and the sky. The belief then developed to polytheism, which explains all of the primitive religions, and then people started to worship one god over the others, where the first commandment from Christianity comes in with that you shall have no other gods before me. Then people ditched polytheism and worshipped only one god. With the current popular three monotheistic religions, I think that it was blatantly clear that the god were of intentional human creation. Once you write a book about the ideas it is most likely completely made up. But with the older polytheistic religions I think that they were of explaining every single thing, as shown in stories such as the ones in Greek mythology. Again, you have great ideas and you have persuaded me in the sense that your ideas and supporting logic are amazing, and thank you for your insight.

  • EvidenceEvidence 791 Pts
    I have always wondered why so many people believe in god because I have not seen any good arguments for his existence. I think that because this could be life or death I should remain open to opposition. You can argue for any religion, I should just let you know that I don't know too much about religions other than Christianity and Islam. I really appreciate anyone who wants to step in and challenge me as this will help me with my understanding of religions and I think that I can take some things out of this.

    Thank you
    Hello @PyromanGaming Is that your name in online Gaming, .. "Pyroman"? My son is hooked on online gaming, .. burn them up buddy, raise all the demons of darkness with magic and scorch the earth!

    I am awestruck at where online Gasming has evolved to in such a short time!? It's funny, but the name we choose says a lot about who we are and what we're about, don't it?
    In my debates on God there was Goat with the pentagram in his avatar, then there was demonseed, .. and dozens more, and they all started a debate on the existence of God. If the word "Gaming" in your name has to do with online gaming, the whole thing revolves around gods, demons, demigods magic spells and demonic powers, so the name is like showing the sign what you're about something like this:

    vEye of Providence eye pyramid Illuminati and mason symbol made of hands and female face with blue paint on fingers

    or

    Related image


    Over 20 some years, with 100's of debates I had with people who openly revealed in their name where they stand on the existence of God, not one was fruitful. Actually it became ugly, especially the more I revealed that both philosophically and scientifically God exists, and how the Powers That Be hid Him from the people. And I found that no one, and I mean no one theist or atheist likes to be proved wrong about their Religious beliefs! The theists like their god or gods, and the last thing an atheist would want is evidence for God.

    The thing is, that God doesn't go around proselytizing, He doesn't need us, we need Him. The gods in all the Religions on the other hand do, .. their survival depends on it!

    Now if I seen even a hint of genuine seeking God in your OP, I would go on. But I see @MayCaesar response was just what you wanted to hear.
    EmeryPearsonBaconToesErfisflatApplesauce
  • @Evidence, I am actually looking for opposition. I was actually a little disappointed when I found out that the persuasion was about atheism rather than theism. I have seen no rational arguments for the existence of god, but I feel that there are many because out of the millions or billions of believers there should be some very intelligent individuals out there. My reason for starting this in the first place was to have my mind changed, change other people's minds, and understand more about religion and about theists. I don't want to squash opposition and I apologize if that was how you interpreted that message. His post just felt like a "eureka" to me. Maybe he could be wrong, but until I see a rational reason why he could be, his logic seems fine. Again, I don't just want to understand the rationale behind atheism, but also theism. You seem like a very intelligent individual and just the one who I am looking for. We all have our irrational moments in debates, but we can only reach rationality through logic. And this is why I ask you and anyone reading this to feel free to change my mind. If you don't want to, you don't have to, but I hope to hear your rationale.
    Evidence
  • EvidenceEvidence 791 Pts
    @Evidence, I am actually looking for opposition. I was actually a little disappointed when I found out that the persuasion was about atheism rather than theism. I have seen no rational arguments for the existence of god, but I feel that there are many because out of the millions or billions of believers there should be some very intelligent individuals out there. My reason for starting this in the first place was to have my mind changed, change other people's minds, and understand more about religion and about theists. I don't want to squash opposition and I apologize if that was how you interpreted that message. His post just felt like a "eureka" to me. Maybe he could be wrong, but until I see a rational reason why he could be, his logic seems fine. Again, I don't just want to understand the rationale behind atheism, but also theism. You seem like a very intelligent individual and just the one who I am looking for. We all have our irrational moments in debates, but we can only reach rationality through logic. And this is why I ask you and anyone reading this to feel free to change my mind. If you don't want to, you don't have to, but I hope to hear your rationale.
    @PyromanGaming Sure thing my friend, if you're serious, here is the evidence of God;
    God is Infinite, so Infinite IS God, and Infinite is conscious. Moses the Prophet asked Him who He was, and God said: "I Am who I Am" ("I Am that I Am")

    The RCC Christians turned our Infinite Creator into "space". This "space" they say is what created the heavens and the earth and everything in it by the power of the three illusions: Time, Space and their son Gravity, just one form of their trinity gods.

    Christian Religion was created by the Roman Catholic Church under Emperor Constantine in around 325AD. The name Christian was a derogatory name that they called the Early Believers who were 'of the Way'. This name calling started in Antioch (according to the Jewish Biblical writings in Acts), .. so the RCC added the mock name "Christian" to their title, then renamed many of their gods by names taken from the Bible, and took the symbol of the Cross that Christ died on, and exchanged it with Constantine's sword. (You can read up on the horrific, bloody history of the Christian Church)

    Please don't confuse Organized Religion with the word religious. Anyone can be religious about many different things, both good actions and bad. Running a mile in the morning, every morning can be done religiously where no God or gods have to be involved. But Religion, well they need their gods otherwise they go broke.

    The thing is that our Infinite Creator God does not need Religion to speak for Him, .. He appoints Prophets who He finds with a good heart, and He speaks through them, and we know it comes from God because of the content and that those words come true! And as we see in these Last Days, where all the Prophets and Apostles have been long gone, and the last of the men of God murdered and the flock scattered and soon after Christs ascension died out, .. and now comes true what Jesus predicted that should the Prophets, or Believers in God, or Followers of The Way be silent, the Rocks will cry out!

    This is true if we look into Flat Earth, Mud fossils, Giants, and other new discoveries that are being made by the day, which have been hidden from us for 1,700 years so we would accept "space" as our God and Creator. We have deviated from God so far, that we don't even know the Earth, the ground we live on!? As you know, we have been programmed to believe that we're floating in this space-god which is supposedly a vacuum (see my new thread I started in "science" on the lies of gravity, space and time)
     This is partly because a Religion, as I said the RCC Christian Religion has taken possession of the Bible, and have been interpreting the message through their own doctrines. This is why you see that Christianity is all about money, and power. They love that money, and you know what our Lord Jesus Christ said how that; the love of money is the root of ALL evil!

    To find Infinite/God you'll have to read the Bible and when you find the evidence in there satisfactory above and beyond any lies out there (for there are many roads that lead away from God) you'll be on the right path,  Do some research on this creator god called "space" who uses pseudo science, demon worship, magic and divination between the supernatural realm to deceive the world.
     and if you done your research, this required seeking and knocking, you should start getting your mind/spirit back, and be able to think for yourself, and soon you will wake up and realize who you really are:
    Body created of the dust of the earth, with a mind/spirit breathed from God Himself.
    That God created the Heaven and the earth through His son Word (whom He created first) and everything else that God has ever created was through the Word.
    Lucky for us, "The Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us, was crucified by the Romans on the request of his own people the Children of Israel, the Jews, but not before He revealed the Father to us. 

    Here is some info as to the god of this world and where his version of "creator" comes from:


    EmeryPearsonBaconToesErfisflat
  • @Evidence I want to respond to what you said and ask a few questions. I first want to talk about the idea of an infinite god. Infinity cannot exist because it is mathematically incoherent.

    So let's look at some basic addition and subtraction first:

    1 + 1 - 1 = 1

    1 - 1 + 1 = 1

    In both cases I used different orders to complete the equation and both of which resulted in 1. We can do this with any set of numbers. Here is another example:

    2 + 4 - 3 = 3

    4 - 3 + 2 = 3

    This is a basic law of addition. You can rearrange the numbers as long as you don't change the operations attached to them, like you cannot modify the phrase " - 4" But let's see what happens when we use infinity in these equations. We will be using the letter "I" for infinity here.

    I + 1 - I = 0

    Infinity plus one is still infinity, and then minus itself equals 0. But then:

    I - I + 1 = 1

    Infinity minus infinity is 0, and then plus 1 is 1. Infinity breaks this law of addition I mentioned, so it cannot exist. But let's say that god is a very high number, so very powerful. My question is how do you get to the conclusion that infinity is conscious?


    So my next problem is what evidence do you have for all of these claims? Is it the bible? Because I can give you an example in which the bible was wrong, so how would the bible be credible? If there is one incorrect piece of information in the bible, then there couldn't be an infallible creator to write the bible. So in this case, the christian god couldn't exist.


    Let's look at the idea of creationism, which talks about how every living thing in the world was created exactly as it is, never evolving or changing over time. But this is blatantly wrong if you look at Darwinian evolution. Let's look at the evolution of humans:

    Image result for human evolution chart

    We have found skulls of apes changing into us over millions of years. We have even seen evolution for ourselves. Take a look at the peppered moth, a white moth with black spots. This coloring helped it to camouflage. But in the industrial revolution for about 20 years, there was so much pollution that the trees were covered with soot. The moths turned black, but then when people stopped polluting the air so much, the soot cleared away and the moths turned back to normal.

    We have even seen some evidence pointing away from the idea of creationist intelligent design. For example, let's look at the appendix, a tiny organ on the side of the colon that serves no major purpose. It ruptures in so many people's bodies, it even ruptured in my mother's. Why would an intelligent creator add that to our bodies? And there are many other examples.


    Again, the bible because of this is fallible.

    So I looked into some of your ideas in the debate "is space real?" and I have a question. Can you show me that NASA is wrong about everything because I think that if the government is spending so much money on this, and if no one in half a century in the government has gone out and supported you claim it is most probably wrong.

    I apologize I haven't gotten the time to watch the video you posted but I will when I get the chance. Also, can you tell me more about the idea of flat earth, mud fossils, and giants? And finally, the idea of god being space intrigues me. Could you show me some websites/videos/books that could help me learn this? That would be great.


    I want to thank you for having this discussion and I look forward to hearing what you have to say about the information I brought up because I think this is going to be a very interesting discussion.

    PyromanGaming
    EmeryPearsonBaconToesZombieguy1987cheesycheese
  • EvidenceEvidence 791 Pts
    @Evidence I want to respond to what you said and ask a few questions. I first want to talk about the idea of an infinite god. Infinity cannot exist because it is mathematically incoherent.

    So let's look at some basic addition and subtraction first:

    1 + 1 - 1 = 1

    1 - 1 + 1 = 1

    In both cases I used different orders to complete the equation and both of which resulted in 1. We can do this with any set of numbers. Here is another example:

    2 + 4 - 3 = 3

    4 - 3 + 2 = 3

    This is a basic law of addition. You can rearrange the numbers as long as you don't change the operations attached to them, like you cannot modify the phrase " - 4" But let's see what happens when we use infinity in these equations. We will be using the letter "I" for infinity here.

    I + 1 - I = 0

    Infinity plus one is still infinity, and then minus itself equals 0. But then:

    I - I + 1 = 1

    Infinity minus infinity is 0, and then plus 1 is 1. Infinity breaks this law of addition I mentioned, so it cannot exist. But let's say that god is a very high number, so very powerful. My question is how do you get to the conclusion that infinity is conscious?


    So my next problem is what evidence do you have for all of these claims? Is it the bible? Because I can give you an example in which the bible was wrong, so how would the bible be credible? If there is one incorrect piece of information in the bible, then there couldn't be an infallible creator to write the bible. So in this case, the christian god couldn't exist.


    Let's look at the idea of creationism, which talks about how every living thing in the world was created exactly as it is, never evolving or changing over time. But this is blatantly wrong if you look at Darwinian evolution. Let's look at the evolution of humans:

    Image result for human evolution chart

    We have found skulls of apes changing into us over millions of years. We have even seen evolution for ourselves. Take a look at the peppered moth, a white moth with black spots. This coloring helped it to camouflage. But in the industrial revolution for about 20 years, there was so much pollution that the trees were covered with soot. The moths turned black, but then when people stopped polluting the air so much, the soot cleared away and the moths turned back to normal.

    We have even seen some evidence pointing away from the idea of creationist intelligent design. For example, let's look at the appendix, a tiny organ on the side of the colon that serves no major purpose. It ruptures in so many people's bodies, it even ruptured in my mother's. Why would an intelligent creator add that to our bodies? And there are many other examples.


    Again, the bible because of this is fallible.

    So I looked into some of your ideas in the debate "is space real?" and I have a question. Can you show me that NASA is wrong about everything because I think that if the government is spending so much money on this, and if no one in half a century in the government has gone out and supported you claim it is most probably wrong.

    I apologize I haven't gotten the time to watch the video you posted but I will when I get the chance. Also, can you tell me more about the idea of flat earth, mud fossils, and giants? And finally, the idea of god being space intrigues me. Could you show me some websites/videos/books that could help me learn this? That would be great.


    I want to thank you for having this discussion and I look forward to hearing what you have to say about the information I brought up because I think this is going to be a very interesting discussion.

    PyromanGaming
    Thank you my friend @PyromanGaming for you kind response, and I will try with the help of God to respond accordingly.

    PyroGaming said - This is a basic law of addition. You can rearrange the numbers as long as you don't change the operations attached to them, like you cannot modify the phrase " - 4" But let's see what happens when we use infinity in these equations. We will be using the letter "I" for infinity here.

    What you said about infinity, whether capital "I" or not, it represents the physical realm of "things" that go on throughout infinity, .. NOT Infinite. In other words, there is an Infinite difference between infinity and Infinite. As you properly demonstrated, you are talking about infini-ty, but I don't understand how you can use it in mathematics? I believe the problem is here:

    Wikipedia
    - The infinite series whose terms are the natural numbers 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + ⋯ is a divergent series. The nth partial sum of the series is the triangular number.

    This should be called "infinity series" not to be confused with "Infinite/God". So unless you understand this 'Infinite' difference between infinity and "Infinite/God" we can go on and on, you talking about infinity and me about Infinite, never coming to any conclusion.

    I know I said this many times before: If the definition of Infinite is borderless/boundless then you cannot have finite things like numbers to define it, .. like 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 etc.. The number 1 is very defined, it stay 1, not 2, not 0, and not -4, ..  but stays 1. So that number 1 right there is something with very much defined borders, so how does, or how can that make an 'Infinite' series?

    PyromanGaming - Infinity minus infinity is 0, and then plus 1 is 1. Infinity breaks this law of addition I mentioned, so it cannot exist. But let's say that god is a very high number, so very powerful. My question is how do you get to the conclusion that infinity is conscious?

    I don't see how you could use the word infinity as a number? That's like making "feet, or mile, or height, or weight, or space, or time" something tangible?

    For the hundredth time; I never said infini-ty is conscious, and you should know that because look how you started this post: " I first want to talk about the idea of an infinite god."

    Then next you go right back to our old indoctrinated ways: "Infinity cannot exist because it is mathematically incoherent."  which I agree 100% with that both Infinite and infinity is mathematically incoherent.

    PyromanGaming - But let's say that god is a very high number, so very powerful.

    God is One, the Only Possible Infinite Creator, so in this case God should be capitalized. God is not a number, high or low, .. and he is not "very" powerful, instead He is Almighty, meaning both in power and wisdom He Is "INFINITE".

    PyromanGaming - My question is how do you get to the conclusion that infinity is conscious?

    Not infinity, that's just a word we use to describe numbers (or whatever) going on to infinity. We could say "numbers that go on and on, and on, and on", so instead we say goes into infinity.
     "Infinite/God" on the other hand is Spirit, a conscious mind, who could only be described as "I Am". We have a body with a brain, then God breathed into it and made us living beings, gave us our spirit/mind and man became conscious.
    This is why Evolutionists are so desperately trying to hide the fact that our spirit/mind is separate from the brain, the fact that it is who we are, .. so they keep lying about this fact.
    Hiding this fact is their Number One Priority, or the skull and bones worshipping Evolution religion will fall. So they call us animals, and working hard to turn humans into animals at all cost. If you watch the series "The Human Zoo Experiments" or "Evolutions dirty little secret" you will see that they use any means to degrade humanity. First it was the blacks, then darker skinned humans, and now, as you can see with the chem-trailing in our skies over the whole earth, the entire human population is their target.
    And yes, when they're done with rest of humanity, then, .. like the Heavens Gate Cult, .. they too will end their lives. 

    PyromanGaming - So my next problem is what evidence do you have for all of these claims? Is it the bible? Because I can give you an example in which the bible was wrong, so how would the bible be credible? If there is one incorrect piece of information in the bible, then there couldn't be an infallible creator to write the bible. So in this case, the christian god couldn't exist.

    ?? God writing the Bible and making a lot of mistakes? .. Christian god? .. man is errant means God can't create a perfect man, .. we can take 6 million dollars and make him better, stronger, smarter and faster, .. we are NASA, we can also destroy Gods earth and make one better in our expanding Spacetime fabric
    --  time 2:13  --



    Please read what I wrote carefully, you keep repeating the same mistakes even after I explained it many times before.

    Pyroman - Let's look at the idea of creationism, which talks about how every living thing in the world was created exactly as it is, never evolving or changing over time. But this is blatantly wrong if you look at Darwinian evolution. Let's look at the evolution of humans:

    You do realize those are skull bone fragments tight? I though Darwin was a birdwatcher, watching finches beaks grow, .. not a grave robber? Are you sure Darwin dug up all those skulls?
    And yes I agree that only a fool could say that man can't evolve, heck, I evolved both mentally, spiritually, and spending six months once in the harsh desert camping out by myself, I turned into an Indian. Six months drinking stream water, eating fish from the stream, hiking in 115+ heat sometimes from early morning till midnight, where the only water I found in the desert mountains was cactus fruit!
    This, from 12 hours a day, six days a week Machining, a white man, ..  to Indian in just six months, .. now that's evolution that would make even Darwin proud!
    Come on Pyroman, you don't actually believe that dried up dead men's skulls could evolve into monkeys, or the other way around now do you? I didn't think so.

    Pyroman - We have found skulls of apes changing into us over millions of years.

    Dark skinned man was supposedly always an ape in Darwin's eyes! This dehumanizing idea evolved to all humanity, like a plague.
    I'm sorry but I just pictured what you said of Darwin, sitting over a grave, watching skull of an ape for millions of years ..

    Image result for pic of Darwin

    .. evolve into a human, and actually record this scientifically!? 


    Pyroman - We have even seen evolution for ourselves. Take a look at the peppered moth, a white moth with black spots. This coloring helped it to camouflage. But in the industrial revolution for about 20 years, there was so much pollution that the trees were covered with soot. The moths turned black, but then when people stopped polluting the air so much, the soot cleared away and the moths turned back to normal.

    I shown you how fast I turned into an Indian right? then I went back to the old grind, back 12 hours night shifts and in a month I was back to the sickly looking overworked never see the son white guy. But you know what, I did not switch to another species, just as those moths didn't. You missed what Evolutionists actually admit, that: "No species has ever evolved/speciated into another species in their lifetime". It seems that the only place that Evolutionists swear speciation happens is in the grave, with scull and bones, just as you pointed out above.

    Pyroman - We have even seen some evidence pointing away from the idea of creationist intelligent design. For example, let's look at the appendix, a tiny organ on the side of the colon that serves no major purpose. It ruptures in so many people's bodies, it even ruptured in my mother's. Why would an intelligent creator add that to our bodies? And there are many other examples.

    Yes, yes, like our tonsils, tail bones, .. Look my friend, don't listen to people who do nothing but dig up graves and collect skull and bones. Just stop and think about it, what kind of people are those that are involved in collecting skulls and decorating their house with it, build alters which they ty to pass off to the dumbed down public as fossil-museums lol. Yeah right, we know exactly what kind of mentality it takes to spend your entire life collecting skulls.
    And do you know what happens if they don't find the special skull they're looking for? Look up how many Aborigines were decapitated and their skulls boiled down to pass them off as Neanderthals!?
    You know about Ota Benga right?

     

    So I looked into some of your ideas in the debate "is space real?" and I have a question. Can you show me that NASA is wrong about everything because I think that if the government is spending so much money on this, and if no one in half a century in the government has gone out and supported you claim it is most probably wrong.

    How much do you know about 'Communism'? The Powers that control the world now through the lies from NASA and CERN through the UN are the same ones that created Nazism and Communism in Europe.

    Communism -
    Imagine passing off an idea that if you give up everything you have, this includes your faith in God, .. and give it to your Government, they will share it equally with everyone, and No One will ever have to worry about food, health care, a job, fixing up the roads, and especially providing equal housing for everyone.
    What a joke THAT was!
    Communist Europe was starving, sick and dying, no matter how much or how hard you worked they gave you the measly wage that just kept your family from starving, the roads in smaller towns became impassable, and the bigger houses were taken and given to those who praised this demonic regime, and would be willing to turn in their own mother for the Fatherland!

    Do you remember what happened in Cambodia with their Leader Pol Pot? Watch the movie "The Killing Fields", you'll get an idea how this Communism supposedly "helped" their nation. Not just that, but hundreds of millions have died for this idea, and here we go again, the same people, same agenda, only in a different wrapping.

    I apologize I haven't gotten the time to watch the video you posted but I will when I get the chance. Also, can you tell me more about the idea of flat earth, mud fossils, and giants? And finally, the idea of god being space intrigues me. Could you show me some websites/videos/books that could help me learn this? That would be great.

    You're in luck, my dear friend Erfisflat has provided (just about) answers to any question anyone could ask!? Look into them right here on DebateIsland!

    I want to thank you for having this discussion and I look forward to hearing what you have to say about the information I brought up because I think this is going to be a very interesting discussion.

    PyromanGaming

    Thank You!

    EmeryPearsonBaconToesEvilJewZombieguy1987
  • So I want to address everything you said. First, let's talk about the disagreement on infinite/infinity. I agree that this is a very important thing to sort out because we have to look at the language that's being used. What I thought that infinity/infinite were was that the term "infinite" is the adjective form of "infinity", in the same way as the "two" in the phrase "there are two oranges" is the adjective form of the "two" in the phrase "the answer is two". So I did some googling to see if you were using a different definition and I realized that infinite can also be a noun that means god. I believe that this is what the definition of "infinite" you were using was correct me if I'm wrong. I think that what confused me was the statement "god is infinite, so infinite is god" which is then a tautology. So now that we have hopefully gotten that confusion out of the way let's move on.

    I found your response to my question about the legitimacy of the bible interesting. I could kind of see what you were saying, but not really. So I apologize if I get anything wrong about what you were saying here because what you wrote is very interpretable. So what you are saying is that the bible can be fallible and god can still exist because in the same way that man can stray from the path of good the bible can or at least the bible can be corrupted? So I'm not sure which it is so I'll address both. The problem with both of these explanations is that you are basing the standard of the path of good on the fallible bible. It doesn't make sense. If the bible isn't god's word then how can we know that someone else didn't write it. It sounds more likely that the bible was created by fallible humans rather than an extremely powerful if not all powerful being. Again, regardless of if the bible is fallible or not, and assuming that god exists, god must have an invested interest in shaping us into the best possible people we can be, or else he wouldn't have written the bible. We would have gotten some kind of message from him to the world telling us here is how we should live that is infallible.

    So next let's look at your response to evolution. So I'm going to bring back the picture again for reference:Image result for human evolution chart
    So as a comparison remember that Homo Sapiens is us (I hope you knew that already). When we look at every other fossil in this chart we notice that they all have smaller foreheads, which is all about the brain capacity (every species shown here except Homo Neanderthalensis has a smaller brain capacity than us because of this). And we see that we get skulls that look more and more like apes. Look at Australopithecus Afarensis. It's cheek bones are way farther out than ours and it's mouth is stretched out like a chimpanzee's (I'm pretty sure there's a better way to describe that second example but I don't know it). I don't think that boiling down a skull (if you can even do that) would have those effects.

    Now I want to go to the peppered moth example that you talked about. You did the butterfly unit in kindergarten, or is that just in Canada. I don't know where you live. My point is that butterflies and moths, like all insects, have very short lifespans relative to humans. What happened is that a successful moth species at that time, was wiped out because it could no longer camouflage, so the individuals that had black skin were able to survive and pass on their genetic codes. This is why almost never does a white man plus a white women equal a black person. It still happens though because of genetic mutation.

    Do for a refresher, here's how evolution works: Genetic mutations in species always occur. There can be good ones, there can be bad ones. The individuals with the good ones have an advantage over others. This means that the individuals with the good genes are more likely to pass on their genes and eventually, either the good individuals are out bred or they grow their population until there is a new species/subspecies. It explains everything we know about all living things.

    Next we get to your response to the argument of unintelligent design, where you seem to dodge the idea that why would a benevolent creator put in such things?

    So finally we get to the idea that NASA is wrong. When I asked you why NASA is wrong, you talked about how NASA and CERN were the cause of many horrible occurrences of communism. You don't really explain how these organizations did anything to these countries rather just stated it. I don't really understand how these two organizations based on technology would get into economics in the first place. I would think that if anything the government would do that, and the USA founded NATO, which I believe was there to stop the spread of communism in the first place.

    Many of your statements I find are not backed up with much evidence and are a little confusing. Maybe you are right but I need a little more elaboration on your part so that we can properly talk about these points that both of us are making. I look forward to your response.

    PyromanGaming
    EmeryPearsonBaconToesZombieguy1987cheesycheese
  • RoyaltyRoyalty 24 Pts
    I have always wondered why so many people believe in god because I have not seen any good arguments for his existence. I think that because this could be life or death I should remain open to opposition. You can argue for any religion, I should just let you know that I don't know too much about religions other than Christianity and Islam. I really appreciate anyone who wants to step in and challenge me as this will help me with my understanding of religions and I think that I can take some things out of this.

    Thank you
    What evidence are you looking for to prove that God does exist? 
  • someone234someone234 615 Pts
    @PyromanGaming PM me if you really want to get in touch with the alien demigods. If you're only looking to argue, you're welcome to remain oblivious.
    BaconToes
  • @Royalty I am looking for cold hard facts that prove that god exists rather than an emotional reason. I want to be as rational of a person as I can be.
  • @someone234 I don't know if you're joking about getting in touch with the alien demigods. I would be happy to talk to you more about this if you could clarify. And secondly, I don't understand why arguments make me oblivious. I have seen no empirical proof of any god so I believe that it is more rational to believe in the absence of a god than to believe in one of the countless gods that could exist theoretically in this world. I find it quite annoying when people call me oblivious because no one (even the people who call atheists like me that) has given me any good reason to believe in any god. I thought that because so many people believe in a god, there has to be a good reason, and I have been long searching for one and have come up empty. I still would be happy if you were to take me up on the challenge, because maybe you could bring up some evidence for god that would help me. As I said to Royalty, I want to be as rational of a person as I can be, and not an oblivious one.
  • @someone234 I don't know if you're joking about getting in touch with the alien demigods. I would be happy to talk to you more about this if you could clarify. And secondly, I don't understand why arguments make me oblivious. I have seen no empirical proof of any god so I believe that it is more rational to believe in the absence of a god than to believe in one of the countless gods that could exist theoretically in this world. I find it quite annoying when people call me oblivious because no one (even the people who call atheists like me that) has given me any good reason to believe in any god. I thought that because so many people believe in a god, there has to be a good reason, and I have been long searching for one and have come up empty. I still would be happy if you were to take me up on the challenge, because maybe you could bring up some evidence for god that would help me. As I said to Royalty, I want to be as rational of a person as I can be, and not an oblivious one.
    Do you think the heads of a Mafia Cartel just come and show themselves to you like that? They are far too important to grace you with a physical presence. They contact you in other ways and that is all you will ever earn and deserve.

    We are beneath them and that is the truth. You can't understand until you begin to open your mind.

    I am becoming phenomenally rich over time and it is thanks to the journey they have helped me undertake. I plan to eventually do many things but remain unfamous as I've learned you gain 0% from glory or fame. I want to be a side-name on many important projects rather than a leading name on just one.
  • RoyaltyRoyalty 24 Pts
    @Royalty I am looking for cold hard facts that prove that god exists rather than an emotional reason. I want to be as rational of a person as I can be.
    What kind of cold hard facts? Do you want to see him in person...is that what youre talking about?
  • @PyromanGaming

    I created this site to kind of show why I have beliefs.

    https://www.facebook.com/The-Beast-is-Strong-in-This-One-273041423117102/
  • @someone234 The issue I have is that if I don't have any evidence for the existence of a god, what is the rationality in believing in one. Never mind one who has taken an invested interest in our daily lives and who demands to worship him, which is what almost all believers in god believe in. Could you explain in what other ways they contact you? Because I have seen none whatsoever. Maybe I am oblivious, but I can only become aware of god with evidence, and that is why I opened up this discussion.
  • @Royalty I want anything that can show me that god is real. Use whatever you think would convince me. Thank you.
  • @brontoraptor I only looked for a bit and saw only things that show that elements of the bible are true, not that god is. In order to show that the christian god is real, you first have to show that everything in the bible that we can verify is infallible. See earlier in this discussion where I talk about the flaws of creationism.
  • @PyromanGaming

    Not really. The Bible depicts the end times with objective claims.

    1)Gospel goes to every nation.
    2)A rebellion against God and a falling away from the faith.
    3)The beast system emerges. Islam claims to be it and emulates the Biblical description. Killing, imprisoning, persecuting, & beheading Christians.
    4)Damascus, Syria is reduced to rubble.
    5)Jerusalem is divided between 3 groups.
    6)Israel exists. It didn't when the prophecy was made.
    7)The beast system worships a "foreign god" who denounces Christ. Allah in the Quran does both. 
    8)Syria, Libya, and Egypt are neutered of power.
     Shall I continue?
    Evidence
  • @PyromanGaming

    Not really. The Bible depicts the end times with objective claims.

    1)Gospel goes to every nation.
    2)A rebellion against God and a falling away from the faith.
    3)The beast system emerges. Islam claims to be it and emulates the Biblical description. Killing, imprisoning, persecuting, & beheading Christians.
    4)Damascus, Syria is reduced to rubble.
    5)Jerusalem is divided between 3 groups.
    6)Israel exists. It didn't when the prophecy was made.
    7)The beast system worships a "foreign god" who denounces Christ. Allah in the Quran does both. 
    8)Syria, Libya, and Egypt are neutered of power.
     Shall I continue?
    1) Like Islam is doing?
    2) Like you want us to do to Islam?
    3) Heard of the Crusades?
    4) xD?
    5) What makes the Christians the right group?
    6) Israel exists because of the Bible. It was the way of saying sorry to the Jews for what Hitler did and out of respect to their scripture.
    7) If Christ isn't the actual son of God then it would be right for God and his followers to denounce him (Christ)
    8) Is this a biblical prophecy?
    Erfisflat
  • EvidenceEvidence 791 Pts


    @PyromanGaming said  I want to address everything you said. First, let's talk about the disagreement on infinite/infinity. I agree that this is a very important thing to sort out because we have to look at the language that's being used. What I thought that infinity/infinite were was that the term "infinite" is the adjective form of "infinity", in the same way as the "two" in the phrase "there are two oranges" is the adjective form of the "two" in the phrase "the answer is two". So I did some googling to see if you were using a different definition and I realized that infinite can also be a noun that means god. I believe that this is what the definition of "infinite" you were using was correct me if I'm wrong. I think that what confused me was the statement "god is infinite, so infinite is god" which is then a tautology. So now that we have hopefully gotten that confusion out of the way let's move on.

    Yes, you are absolutely right, when I said "God is Infinite and Infinite is God", this also implies that God (who could be any created thing or being) is infinite, but as you found that what I was saying is that Infinite/God. In other words, Infinite Is, .. not that God (whatever or whomever that may be) is Infinite. Infinite/God is not a being, but the ground of being. Thank you for searching it out.

    PyromanGaming - I found your response to my question about the legitimacy of the bible interesting. I could kind of see what you were saying, but not really. So I apologize if I get anything wrong about what you were saying here because what you wrote is very interpretable. So what you are saying is that the bible can be fallible and god can still exist because in the same way that man can stray from the path of good the bible can or at least the bible can be corrupted? So I'm not sure which it is so I'll address both. The problem with both of these explanations is that you are basing the standard of the path of good on the fallible bible. It doesn't make sense. If the bible isn't god's word then how can we know that someone else didn't write it. It sounds more likely that the bible was created by fallible humans rather than an extremely powerful if not all powerful being. Again, regardless of if the bible is fallible or not, and assuming that god exists, god must have an invested interest in shaping us into the best possible people we can be, or else he wouldn't have written the bible. We would have gotten some kind of message from him to the world telling us here is how we should live that is infallible.

    Yes, the Bible can be corrupted, but not to a point where we can't get the message God has for us. Look, remember when Moses came down from talking with God, and he had the Tablets with the Ten Commandments written on them by the hand of God himself? And how when Moses seen the people worshipping a golden idol, he threw the tablets and broke them?
     We could say: "Why would God write something as important as the Ten Commandments on such fragile and breakable stone tablets", right?

    Well all we have to do is read the O.T. Scriptures and see that God does not "force Himself on man", but want's us to want Him, realize that we need Him. Look how the Children of Israel turned from God as soon as they were a little hungry or thirsty, even after they just cross the sea on dry land between two giant walls of water.
    The Word of God IS infallible, but we have free will, which God would never take away from us. He want's us to want Him, just as any loving parent would their own children. So the problem is not that God couldn't make us so afraid that we wouldn't dare to do anything that might displease Him, because I'm sure you agree that He could. But what kind of loving parent would want to see trembling children on their knees shaking in fear before them at all times?

    But here is what should make us tremble on our knees before our Heavenly Father, knowing what evil we have done, and what evil results, .. pain, sadness, fear, sickness and disease. This is why it is written that a good parent will discipline their children, to remind them where their wicked ways can lead.

    PyroanGaming - So next let's look at your response to evolution. So I'm going to bring back the picture again for reference:Image result for human evolution chart
    So as a comparison remember that Homo Sapiens is us (I hope you knew that already). When we look at every other fossil in this chart we notice that they all have smaller foreheads, which is all about the brain capacity (every species shown here except Homo Neanderthalensis has a smaller brain capacity than us because of this). And we see that we get skulls that look more and more like apes. Look at Australopithecus Afarensis. It's cheek bones are way farther out than ours and it's mouth is stretched out like a chimpanzee's (I'm pretty sure there's a better way to describe that second example but I don't know it). I don't think that boiling down a skull (if you can even do that) would have those effects.

    Your joking, .. you know, showing me this, .. right? Tell you what, with 7 billion people on this earth, many who are deformed because of all the diseases that TPTB have injected in our atmosphere and dirt and water, I could easily line this chart up with NOT skulls, but living people, with all kinds of deformities from huge skulls to tiny deformed ones with half a brain. I could find people who walk on all fours, throw in some baby apes and make a few Negro Pygmies hold them, ..  and line all of them up to prove evolution LIVE, and go on a world tour showing my belief that humans are mindless apes.
    But oh wait, didn't we already have that? As I shown in the YouTube documentary "Evolutions dirty little secret parts 1, 2, 3"?
    Yes, .. so the chart is actually a pitiful example of Evolution with millions and billions of years ago unsubstantiated claims. It's really an insult on human intelligence IMHO.


    PyromanGaming - Now I want to go to the peppered moth example that you talked about. You did the butterfly unit in kindergarten, or is that just in Canada. I don't know where you live. My point is that butterflies and moths, like all insects, have very short lifespans relative to humans. What happened is that a successful moth species at that time, was wiped out because it could no longer camouflage, so the individuals that had black skin were able to survive and pass on their genetic codes. This is why almost never does a white man plus a white women equal a black person. It still happens though because of genetic mutation.

    Do for a refresher, here's how evolution works: Genetic mutations in species always occur. There can be good ones, there can be bad ones. The individuals with the good ones have an advantage over others. This means that the individuals with the good genes are more likely to pass on their genes and eventually, either the good individuals are out bred or they grow their population until there is a new species/subspecies. It explains everything we know about all living things.

    Yes, we pass on our genes, but each species remains the same species, even dogs, from a Great Dane to a tiny teacup poodle, .. they remain dogs, and as far as I know, humans, as varied and different each of us is, we remain humans.
    Besides, have you forgotten what Evolution says? It says that: "No specific individual species of any kind has ever speciated into another species in their lifetime! Matter of fact if they did, that would prove evolution wrong!" So even Evolution claims evolution never happens.
    What they say does happen is that skull and bones of animals buried in dirt like chimps do change over millions and billions of years into humans, as you show in the graph. But come on buddy, now this claim defies logic and scientific observation. One must have blind faith in the Evolution Religion to believe it.

    PyromanGaming - Next we get to your response to the argument of unintelligent design, where you seem to dodge the idea that why would a benevolent creator put in such things?

    Sorry, I don't know what that was about??

    PyromanGaming - So finally we get to the idea that NASA is wrong. When I asked you why NASA is wrong, you talked about how NASA and CERN were the cause of many horrible occurrences of communism. You don't really explain how these organizations did anything to these countries rather just stated it. I don't really understand how these two organizations based on technology would get into economics in the first place. I would think that if anything the government would do that, and the USA founded NATO, which I believe was there to stop the spread of communism in the first place.

    The same god that influenced men to come up with communism, and Nazism used the same people to run NASA, the US, NATO and CERN, and behind keeping both the Big-bang story and the idea that humans are animals-apes alive, and are as we speak preparing to wipe humanity and all living things off the earth. But first they will rob us of every penny (they already have all the gold and silver) so now to expedite our demise, they have us pay for that too.
    Satan is the god of this earth, because men have bowed once more to his idea that: "You can become like God", so he must turn back the earth to the way it was in Genesis 1:2.

    Many of your statements I find are not backed up with much evidence and are a little confusing. Maybe you are right but I need a little more elaboration on your part so that we can properly talk about these points that both of us are making. I look forward to your response.

    PyromanGaming

    What more evidence do you need? I shown you who God is: Infinite.
    I shown you that even Evolutionist deny that evolution/speciation happens,
    I have debunked gravity, space and time as BB-Evolutionist have it,
    @Erfisflat continues to present undeniable evidence for our Flat Earth and provided a plethora of evidence against NASA, CERN claims of a globe, .. what else have we left out?
    ErfisflatBaconToes
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1618 Pts
    Evidence said:


    @PyromanGaming said  I want to address everything you said. First, let's talk about the disagreement on infinite/infinity. I agree that this is a very important thing to sort out because we have to look at the language that's being used. What I thought that infinity/infinite were was that the term "infinite" is the adjective form of "infinity", in the same way as the "two" in the phrase "there are two oranges" is the adjective form of the "two" in the phrase "the answer is two". So I did some googling to see if you were using a different definition and I realized that infinite can also be a noun that means god. I believe that this is what the definition of "infinite" you were using was correct me if I'm wrong. I think that what confused me was the statement "god is infinite, so infinite is god" which is then a tautology. So now that we have hopefully gotten that confusion out of the way let's move on.

    Yes, you are absolutely right, when I said "God is Infinite and Infinite is God", this also implies that God (who could be any created thing or being) is infinite, but as you found that what I was saying is that Infinite/God. In other words, Infinite Is, .. not that God (whatever or whomever that may be) is Infinite. Infinite/God is not a being, but the ground of being. Thank you for searching it out.

    PyromanGaming - I found your response to my question about the legitimacy of the bible interesting. I could kind of see what you were saying, but not really. So I apologize if I get anything wrong about what you were saying here because what you wrote is very interpretable. So what you are saying is that the bible can be fallible and god can still exist because in the same way that man can stray from the path of good the bible can or at least the bible can be corrupted? So I'm not sure which it is so I'll address both. The problem with both of these explanations is that you are basing the standard of the path of good on the fallible bible. It doesn't make sense. If the bible isn't god's word then how can we know that someone else didn't write it. It sounds more likely that the bible was created by fallible humans rather than an extremely powerful if not all powerful being. Again, regardless of if the bible is fallible or not, and assuming that god exists, god must have an invested interest in shaping us into the best possible people we can be, or else he wouldn't have written the bible. We would have gotten some kind of message from him to the world telling us here is how we should live that is infallible.

    Yes, the Bible can be corrupted, but not to a point where we can't get the message God has for us. Look, remember when Moses came down from talking with God, and he had the Tablets with the Ten Commandments written on them by the hand of God himself? And how when Moses seen the people worshipping a golden idol, he threw the tablets and broke them?
     We could say: "Why would God write something as important as the Ten Commandments on such fragile and breakable stone tablets", right?

    Well all we have to do is read the O.T. Scriptures and see that God does not "force Himself on man", but want's us to want Him, realize that we need Him. Look how the Children of Israel turned from God as soon as they were a little hungry or thirsty, even after they just cross the sea on dry land between two giant walls of water.
    The Word of God IS infallible, but we have free will, which God would never take away from us. He want's us to want Him, just as any loving parent would their own children. So the problem is not that God couldn't make us so afraid that we wouldn't dare to do anything that might displease Him, because I'm sure you agree that He could. But what kind of loving parent would want to see trembling children on their knees shaking in fear before them at all times?

    But here is what should make us tremble on our knees before our Heavenly Father, knowing what evil we have done, and what evil results, .. pain, sadness, fear, sickness and disease. This is why it is written that a good parent will discipline their children, to remind them where their wicked ways can lead.

    PyroanGaming - So next let's look at your response to evolution. So I'm going to bring back the picture again for reference:Image result for human evolution chart
    So as a comparison remember that Homo Sapiens is us (I hope you knew that already). When we look at every other fossil in this chart we notice that they all have smaller foreheads, which is all about the brain capacity (every species shown here except Homo Neanderthalensis has a smaller brain capacity than us because of this). And we see that we get skulls that look more and more like apes. Look at Australopithecus Afarensis. It's cheek bones are way farther out than ours and it's mouth is stretched out like a chimpanzee's (I'm pretty sure there's a better way to describe that second example but I don't know it). I don't think that boiling down a skull (if you can even do that) would have those effects.

    Your joking, .. you know, showing me this, .. right? Tell you what, with 7 billion people on this earth, many who are deformed because of all the diseases that TPTB have injected in our atmosphere and dirt and water, I could easily line this chart up with NOT skulls, but living people, with all kinds of deformities from huge skulls to tiny deformed ones with half a brain. I could find people who walk on all fours, throw in some baby apes and make a few Negro Pygmies hold them, ..  and line all of them up to prove evolution LIVE, and go on a world tour showing my belief that humans are mindless apes.
    But oh wait, didn't we already have that? As I shown in the YouTube documentary "Evolutions dirty little secret parts 1, 2, 3"?
    Yes, .. so the chart is actually a pitiful example of Evolution with millions and billions of years ago unsubstantiated claims. It's really an insult on human intelligence IMHO.


    PyromanGaming - Now I want to go to the peppered moth example that you talked about. You did the butterfly unit in kindergarten, or is that just in Canada. I don't know where you live. My point is that butterflies and moths, like all insects, have very short lifespans relative to humans. What happened is that a successful moth species at that time, was wiped out because it could no longer camouflage, so the individuals that had black skin were able to survive and pass on their genetic codes. This is why almost never does a white man plus a white women equal a black person. It still happens though because of genetic mutation.

    Do for a refresher, here's how evolution works: Genetic mutations in species always occur. There can be good ones, there can be bad ones. The individuals with the good ones have an advantage over others. This means that the individuals with the good genes are more likely to pass on their genes and eventually, either the good individuals are out bred or they grow their population until there is a new species/subspecies. It explains everything we know about all living things.

    Yes, we pass on our genes, but each species remains the same species, even dogs, from a Great Dane to a tiny teacup poodle, .. they remain dogs, and as far as I know, humans, as varied and different each of us is, we remain humans.
    Besides, have you forgotten what Evolution says? It says that: "No specific individual species of any kind has ever speciated into another species in their lifetime! Matter of fact if they did, that would prove evolution wrong!" So even Evolution claims evolution never happens.
    What they say does happen is that skull and bones of animals buried in dirt like chimps do change over millions and billions of years into humans, as you show in the graph. But come on buddy, now this claim defies logic and scientific observation. One must have blind faith in the Evolution Religion to believe it.

    PyromanGaming - Next we get to your response to the argument of unintelligent design, where you seem to dodge the idea that why would a benevolent creator put in such things?

    Sorry, I don't know what that was about??

    PyromanGaming - So finally we get to the idea that NASA is wrong. When I asked you why NASA is wrong, you talked about how NASA and CERN were the cause of many horrible occurrences of communism. You don't really explain how these organizations did anything to these countries rather just stated it. I don't really understand how these two organizations based on technology would get into economics in the first place. I would think that if anything the government would do that, and the USA founded NATO, which I believe was there to stop the spread of communism in the first place.

    The same god that influenced men to come up with communism, and Nazism used the same people to run NASA, the US, NATO and CERN, and behind keeping both the Big-bang story and the idea that humans are animals-apes alive, and are as we speak preparing to wipe humanity and all living things off the earth. But first they will rob us of every penny (they already have all the gold and silver) so now to expedite our demise, they have us pay for that too.
    Satan is the god of this earth, because men have bowed once more to his idea that: "You can become like God", so he must turn back the earth to the way it was in Genesis 1:2.

    Many of your statements I find are not backed up with much evidence and are a little confusing. Maybe you are right but I need a little more elaboration on your part so that we can properly talk about these points that both of us are making. I look forward to your response.

    PyromanGaming

    What more evidence do you need? I shown you who God is: Infinite.
    I shown you that even Evolutionist deny that evolution/speciation happens,
    I have debunked gravity, space and time as BB-Evolutionist have it,
    @Erfisflat continues to present undeniable evidence for our Flat Earth and provided a plethora of evidence against NASA, CERN claims of a globe, .. what else have we left out?
    I was atheist for a long time. Aliens, distant planets, black holes, that was all I could think about and if that was true, while the big bang was a bit far-fetched, it was more likely than God, or infinite, whatever. Now I am certain about the earth being a plane, and that all the former is hogwash. Without the ball earth, big bangism falls apart. Without big bangism, evolution falls apart. I dont know who God is, or what He wants, but I'm listening and learning.
    Evidence
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • EvidenceEvidence 791 Pts
    edited June 12
    @Erfisflat said: I was atheist for a long time. Aliens, distant planets, black holes, that was all I could think about and if that was true, while the big bang was a bit far-fetched, it was more likely than God, or infinite, whatever. Now I am certain about the earth being a plane, and that all the former is hogwash. Without the ball earth, big bangism falls apart. Without big bangism, evolution falls apart. I dont know who God is, or what He wants, but I'm listening and learning. 

    So that wide road (possibilities) is getting narrower all the time, closer and closer to a Creator rather than some natural event that only science fiction could explain, right buddy? Don't think Christians are closer to God than you are, look how few believe in the flat earth, so God is more nearer to you than you think.

    Next, I would suggest you search for all the info. you can on God, who, what, how?
    Who could God be? - If something or someone leads you to a created being, then you know to keep searching, for then you would face "infinite regress", right? Like who created the created god and so on. The answer is that Infinite is God, or better yet Infinite/God. I know how this sounds, and it's mostly because how we been indoctrinated, right? Look how easily they had us, and the entire world believing that our earth was a flying soccer ball spinning in a vacuum, on a fabric they call Spacetime. And yet we all believed it, and this was hundreds of years before they claimed to have gone into space. Why do we just believe these things? And you of all people know why, .. you point it out all the time.

    Same thing with God, men invented Religions with their own gods, then took the writing of the Prophets and the Apostles and gave us everything except hid God in doctrines. So just like when you ask what do you think earth is, and you get "a Globe", well the same when I ask who God is, I get "He is a Trinity" or any of the tens of thousands of gods out there. Everything except the truth, and only those who "desire to know the truth" will listen long enough, and some even search deeper.

    Now Infinite is obviously conscious, and the Bible shows this to be true, where Moses asks God as to who He is, God said "I Am Who I Am", or "I Am" for short.

    I found a lot of good information on God in Christianity, until I realized that every denomination leads you away from actually getting to know who God is. Here is one source which I learned a lot from, yet when it came to the question as to who God is, here is what they say:
    http://biblehub.com/library/bayly/the_practice_of_piety/a_plain_description_of_the.htm

    - Although no creature can define what God is, because he is incomprehensible (Psal. cxliii.3) and dwelling in inaccessible light (1 Tim. vi.16); yet it has pleased his majesty to reveal himself to us in his word, so far as our weak capacity can best conceive him.

    But we can conceive Him, and the whole message of the Bible is on searching, seeking and knocking to find God. I can comprehend perfectly clear what Infinite means, .. it means without borders. What's so hard to understand in that? And that God is Spirit, He spoke: "I Am" which if we didn't have a body but just our mind, and came aware of our self, we'd say: "I Am" so the first thing God creates is Word.

    Through words we create stories, all kinds of different stories, we use all kinds of words to define our stories in detail where you could be sitting thousands of miles from me, yet you can see what I created/wrote. The way I see it, and it makes perfect sense, that God created Word first, and through Word created words, stories, realms, Angels and Principalities all defined and exist by His Word. Remember that it was Gods Words: "Let there be, .. " and there was.

    Look at it this way, if we were words and each word was conscious, the story of creation would be our world, it would be the only reality we knew, right? We could be at a baseball game and "Who" could be on first base, "What" could be on second, and so on. Pun intended, but in a factual way.

    The thing is, if we don't search, and I mean search, then we have nothing to go by, nothing to compare. It's a desire to know, but not just to know because Professors with a doctorate know, but how much of what we know is truth? I can see you have that drive in you, otherwise you would not have come this far on the Flat Earth Reality.

    Did you go to space and seen that the earth is not a ball? No. Like me, some truth triggered your interest to know more, .. right? Well the same with finding and knowing God our Creator. And because these are truly the Last Days, SATAN has just about covered every door, every crack and crevice leading to this knowledge.
    Like you said so many times, how do we know the Bible is true? And so many versions, why couldn't God give us a book no one could change, .. right?

    Well actually he has, they were carefully written down by His Prophets. If anyone had questions in understanding what was written, God had teachers, .. did any of that mattered?
    No.
    Just like after Moses came down from the Holy Mountain and God told him to assemble the people because He was going to talk to them. Once they were assembled and God spoke, they covered their ears and trembled, and begged Moses to ask God not to speak to them but to Moses alone. That now that they had the Law, that was enough of God.

    But then we can ask;  is the story true? It doesn't matter, I know enough of myself and others that it rings true. That, that is exactly what would happen today, and you see that yourself daily in your debated defending, explaining Flat Earth. Everyone seems to have their reasons not to listen to reason, right?

    Deuteronomy 4:32 “For ask now concerning the days that are past, which were before you, since the day that God created man on the earth, and ask from one end of heaven to the other, whether any great thing like this has happened, or anything like it has been heard. 33 Did any people ever hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as you have heard, and live? 34 Or did God ever try to go and take for Himself a nation from the midst of another nation, by trials, by signs, by wonders, by war, by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes? 35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord Himself is God; there is none other besides Him. 36 Out of heaven He let you hear His voice, that He might instruct you; on earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words out of the midst of the fire. 37 And because He loved your fathers, therefore He chose their descendants after them; and He brought you out of Egypt with His Presence, with His mighty power, 38 driving out from before you nations greater and mightier than you, to bring you in, to give you their land as an inheritance, as it is this day. 39 Therefore know this day, and consider it in your heart, that the Lord Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.


    And like we see the response to F.E., the same thing happens when I present God to people who already know the Bible. That how can they believe that three different people and persons can make up one being? So just like all the billions of people who rather hold on to their globes, there are billions who rather hold on to their many gods.
    Erfisflat
  • @Evidence:

    So first of all, let's talk about the idea that while yes the bible can't be corrupted, it cannot be to the point where we cannot understand the messages. This is the problem I have with that claim. How can we know what parts of the bible are corrupted? I find it difficult to think of an answer and we have to answer it because it seems very suspicious and convenient that every christian apologetic I have met assumes that god exists as the bible says it is. We have to know what is corruption of humans vs corruption of god, because this is a very important question to ask to find out if god exists. If the bible is at least partially corrupted, then how can we trust any of it?

    So next we get to the whole evolution debate. So you claim that these people are actually skulls of deformed people, which is an interesting idea which I will entertain. We looked at Ota Benga, who is probably the most deformed person I have seen. But the picture of Australopithecus is much worse. We have found very few fossils relative to the creatures around at that time because the vast majority of animals decompose. Australopithecus is more deformed than the 7 billion people on the planet. If everyone died, very few would be fossilized, so it would be next to impossible for any person like that to even show up, which suggests that it is instead part of a whole different species.

    Now we get to discrediting NASA. I forgot to put this in in my last response but the problem with using the communism example is that you assume that just because someone is immoral, that they are factually incorrect, which is clearly not the case. Morality is subjective, which I want to talk about later, but the shape of the earth isn't. I do want to talk about flat earth theory because I think it's false, but I could be wrong. Maybe @Erfisflat can join because from what I have seen he/she is very educated on the topic.
  • EvidenceEvidence 791 Pts
    @PyromanGaming So first of all, let's talk about the idea that while yes the bible can't be corrupted, it cannot be to the point where we cannot understand the messages. This is the problem I have with that claim. How can we know what parts of the bible are corrupted? I find it difficult to think of an answer and we have to answer it because it seems very suspicious and convenient that every christian apologetic I have met assumes that god exists as the bible says it is. We have to know what is corruption of humans vs corruption of god, because this is a very important question to ask to find out if god exists. If the bible is at least partially corrupted, then how can we trust any of it?

    Have you read and studied the Bible? Did you ever apply any of Jesus teaching to your life or the life of your loved ones, or friends who were going through some really tough times? Which parts of Jesus teachings, .. when applied to solving these problems did you find illogical, or worthless?

    Now lets look at science and technology. Engineers coming out of school with a degree seem to do well out in the world building skyscrapers, bridges, planes, trains and automobiles, so we know that what they learn in school works. Now here is something no engineer could ever use, yet it is claimed to have created not just our world and everything in it and on it, but millions and billions and trillions of planets similar to ours, in an expanding universe:

    - Understanding the underlying mechanism by which gravity is transmitted one place to another -:



    Well, it's kind of the same with the Bible, if Christian, or Buddhist, or Mormon, or books by Richard Dawkins disprove the Bible, see if what they offer works better? Just remember that the Bible is NOT Christian, nor was any of it written by Christians. The word Christian was a derogatory name calling of the early Believers, those who were followers of "the Way", so try not to confuse the Bible with any of todays tens of thousands of Christian Religions.
    The same way as graduates of science and technology don't use moon rocks, or gravitational waves, or the curvature of earth in their jobs, we should not confuse Religions and their ideologies and gods with the Bible. The few changes that stayed in the Bible stick out and can be easily unexplained, and seen why the change was made.

    PyromanGaming - so next we get to the whole evolution debate. So you claim that these people are actually skulls of deformed people, which is an interesting idea which I will entertain. We looked at Ota Benga, who is probably the most deformed person I have seen. But the picture of Australopithecus is much worse. We have found very few fossils relative to the creatures around at that time because the vast majority of animals decompose. Australopithecus is more deformed than the 7 billion people on the planet. If everyone died, very few would be fossilized, so it would be next to impossible for any person like that to even show up, which suggests that it is instead part of a whole different species.

    No, I was talking about living people with deformities and without, who just look like the creatures on your evolution tree. Not skulls, but real living people. Here, let me give you some ideas:
    Image result for pic of hairy dog man

    Related image

    Image result for pic of weird faces


    Related image

    The above is my cousin George working the Uranium mines in Hungary. Only 30, the mines aged him a lot.



    Image result for ape man

    Image result for pic of weird faces

    Image result for pic of weird shaped skulls



    PyromanGaming - Now we get to discrediting NASA. I forgot to put this in in my last response but the problem with using the communism example is that you assume that just because someone is immoral, that they are factually incorrect, which is clearly not the case. Morality is subjective, which I want to talk about later, but the shape of the earth isn't. I do want to talk about flat earth theory because I think it's false, but I could be wrong. Maybe @Erfisflat can join because from what I have seen he/she is very educated on the topic.


    Since when did Erfisflat change his gender to he/she? Well then, I'm changing my gender to she/it, seems popular today. Besides, today I do feel like she/it.

    But yes, Erfisflat has the Flat Earth covered really good.
    When it comes to space, globe earth, planets, gravity and gravitational waves, Common-ancestors evolving into chimps overnight, or giving birth to a chimp, a bonobo and a human one day, that's when we leave science and go into sci-fi and pseudoscience. Besides, they can't, or will not even identify the species of any of these "Common Ancestors", .. maybe they are clone-pods where they think all the different species came from? Like in the movie the Matrix?? I don't know, .. and they won't say.
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1618 Pts
    "Maybe @Erfisflatcan join because from what I have seen he/she is very educated on the topic."

    ImI always happy to discuss the topic I've researched for three years now. Any questions? I've put some good evidence up in a debate if you wish to discuss it.
    @pyromangaming
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • BaconToesBaconToes 194 Pts
    Giants, Flat Earth, Conspiracy between over 18,000 people, Faking the moon landing, God, and Chemtrails, all examples of unsubstantiated claims.

    I think Pyroman is doing a pretty good job, so I'll leave him to it.
    i fart cows
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1618 Pts
    BaconToes said:
    Giants, Flat Earth, Conspiracy between over 18,000 people, Faking the moon landing, God, and Chemtrails, all examples of unsubstantiated claims.

    I think Pyroman is doing a pretty good job, so I'll leave him to it.
    I wouldn't say the flat earth is unsubstantiated, there is plenty of evidence and logic that supports it, "obvious" would be a better term. By all means, leave it with @PyromanGaming though, Im available when you get ready, @BaconToes
    Evidence
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • @Evidence,

    So first, let's look at the first argument, which I have a few things to say about. While yes, many of the morals are great, it dodges the idea of how can we separate the uncorrupted ideas in the bible with the corrupted. Again, this is a very important question to ask if we can have a discussion about this topic, and because you agree that the bible could be corrupted but still believe that god exists, I need an answer to that on your part. Secondly, yes I have been talking about the bible a lot, or referring to these arguments applying to the bible, but they apply to all of the other religions I have seen. All say falsifiable things so therefore none can be trusted.

    Next, let's get back to the evolution argument, which I think is going somewhere productive, but we'll see. I am not denying the existence of people who exist currently that might look like these people. But here's the problem: there are so little fossils in the world relative to creatures that have existed in the past. Most creatures completely decompose but some turn into fossils. There are 100 known fossils of my example of Australopithecus that I showed you that we have found. This means that these people were not only common, but so common that they would have to have been their own species. This explains every part of their body which looks so much different. If these fossils were actually just deformed humans, it would be so unlikely that it would ironically be a miracle that they existed.

    So now to @Erfisflat, I have two small points to present to you to spark this debate on whether the earth is flat. Evidence, you can also respond to this if you think that I am wrong:

    1. Which can you see farther on?

    This?
    Image result for rockies

    Or this?

    Image result for prairies

    You would obviously pick the first one looking at the far glaciers, but why does this effect happen? Because the earth is tilted just at a tiny angle to drop enough in the second picture for you not to see more of the prairies.



    2. Look at the moon when it's a crescent:

    Image result for moon crescent

    You can see the shadow of the earth here, and it looks round to me.

    These are my two points. I may find more later. I look forward to your response.
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1618 Pts
    edited June 15
    @Evidence,

    So first, let's look at the first argument, which I have a few things to say about. While yes, many of the morals are great, it dodges the idea of how can we separate the uncorrupted ideas in the bible with the corrupted. Again, this is a very important question to ask if we can have a discussion about this topic, and because you agree that the bible could be corrupted but still believe that god exists, I need an answer to that on your part. Secondly, yes I have been talking about the bible a lot, or referring to these arguments applying to the bible, but they apply to all of the other religions I have seen. All say falsifiable things so therefore none can be trusted.

    Next, let's get back to the evolution argument, which I think is going somewhere productive, but we'll see. I am not denying the existence of people who exist currently that might look like these people. But here's the problem: there are so little fossils in the world relative to creatures that have existed in the past. Most creatures completely decompose but some turn into fossils. There are 100 known fossils of my example of Australopithecus that I showed you that we have found. This means that these people were not only common, but so common that they would have to have been their own species. This explains every part of their body which looks so much different. If these fossils were actually just deformed humans, it would be so unlikely that it would ironically be a miracle that they existed.

    So now to @Erfisflat, I have two small points to present to you to spark this debate on whether the earth is flat. Evidence, you can also respond to this if you think that I am wrong:

    1. Which can you see farther on?

    This?
    Image result for rockies

    Or this?

    Image result for prairies

    You would obviously pick the first one looking at the far glaciers, but why does this effect happen? Because the earth is tilted just at a tiny angle to drop enough in the second picture for you not to see more of the prairies.



    2. Look at the moon when it's a crescent:

    Image result for moon crescent

    You can see the shadow of the earth here, and it looks round to me.

    These are my two points. I may find more later. I look forward to your response.
    Ok, I can help with the flat Earth stuff. I come from a more scientific approach with the scientific method.

    The first point, I'm not getting. You would see something alot further off in the second image, if the distance wasn't far enough to reduce the angular size to one smaller than say a small hill that was closer. 

    The point is very vague, and uses an observation, but lacks any measurement. Without know where these pictures were taken, I'm a bit at a loss for words. Before we proceed, are you aware of how much minimal curvature a ball that is 25,000 miles in circumference should exhibit? Like, say, when looking across a 60 mile lake, what drop there should be, and what should and shouldn't be visible?

    The second point is a huge assumption, with circular reasoning. What reason do you have to say that the earth, which is always below your feet, has come between two celestial bodies, always seen in the sky? 

    I can never put it quite like Samuel Birley Rowbotham, so I'll quote his book.

    "A SOLAR eclipse is the result simply of the moon passing between the sun and the observer on earth. But that an eclipse of the moon arises from a shadow of the earth, is a statement in every respect, because unproved, unsatisfactory. The earth has been proved to be without orbital or axial motion; and, therefore, it could never come between the sun and the moon. The earth is also proved to be a plane, always underneath the sun and moon; and, therefore, to speak of its intercepting the light of the sun, and thus casting its own shadow on the moon, is to say that which is physically impossible.

    Besides the above difficulties or incompatibilities, many cases are on record of the sun and moon being eclipsed when both were above the horizon. The sun, the earth, and the moon, not in a straight line, but the earth belowthe sun and moon--out of the reach or direction of both--and yet a lunar eclipse has occurred! Is it possible that a "shadow" of the earth could be thrown upon the moon, when sun, earth, and moon, were not in the same line?" 

    Our views on the matter differ somewhat from there on in this chapter of his book. The event he speaks of has been well accounted for, and was recorded here. Take note on how this guy tries to contrive conjecture to explain away this geometrically impossible feat of the heliocentric model.



    http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za29.htm





    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1618 Pts
    @Evidence,

    So first, let's look at the first argument, which I have a few things to say about. While yes, many of the morals are great, it dodges the idea of how can we separate the uncorrupted ideas in the bible with the corrupted. Again, this is a very important question to ask if we can have a discussion about this topic, and because you agree that the bible could be corrupted but still believe that god exists, I need an answer to that on your part. Secondly, yes I have been talking about the bible a lot, or referring to these arguments applying to the bible, but they apply to all of the other religions I have seen. All say falsifiable things so therefore none can be trusted.

    Next, let's get back to the evolution argument, which I think is going somewhere productive, but we'll see. I am not denying the existence of people who exist currently that might look like these people. But here's the problem: there are so little fossils in the world relative to creatures that have existed in the past. Most creatures completely decompose but some turn into fossils. There are 100 known fossils of my example of Australopithecus that I showed you that we have found. This means that these people were not only common, but so common that they would have to have been their own species. This explains every part of their body which looks so much different. If these fossils were actually just deformed humans, it would be so unlikely that it would ironically be a miracle that they existed.

    So now to @Erfisflat, I have two small points to present to you to spark this debate on whether the earth is flat. Evidence, you can also respond to this if you think that I am wrong:

    1. Which can you see farther on?

    This?
    Image result for rockies

    Or this?

    Image result for prairies

    You would obviously pick the first one looking at the far glaciers, but why does this effect happen? Because the earth is tilted just at a tiny angle to drop enough in the second picture for you not to see more of the prairies.



    2. Look at the moon when it's a crescent:

    Image result for moon crescent

    You can see the shadow of the earth here, and it looks round to me.

    These are my two points. I may find more later. I look forward to your response.
    Just realized that your claim was that the shadow on a crescent moon is of the Earth's. This is incorrect even in your model. Thinking maybe you meant eclipse.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • @Erfisflat I want to respond to your arguments. The first argument I made, while I question the angular size making it so that you see farther in the second image, I don't think that I can empirically demonstrate if you or I am right about this. Maybe you have some images or ways to demonstrate this? We would need some very long flat plain. Maybe there are some images online showing this demonstrated.

    So for the second argument, let's talk about how this occurs. This is how this works. When there is a crescent moon like in the image, it means that the sun is shining on one side of the earth away from where you are and the light shines on part of the moon and gets blocked by part of the earth. When there is a full moon, it means that the light from the sun is shining on the moon and bounces off the moon. When you can't see the moon, it's because there is no light. My question is how would this work in a flat earth?

    I now want to present you with another argument I thought of. How do you explain that there are different time zones that connect relative to where the sun is at a certain time in that area?

    Image result for time zones

    So anecdotally, I've been through time zones hours apart, and the sun was shining at that time similar to the way that the sun would at the same time (so 8:00 in China relative to 8:00 in Spain) in other places. A 24 hour time zone system would not work with the flat earth model, because either all of the earth would see some sun, or none of it would. At best, it would be a 12 hour time zone system.

    All of this aside, my last question is how can we differentiate which religions are true and which are false? Because there are no major differences between them regarding science, yet there are many differences in other fields. It's almost as if there were widely accepted theories at those times that people accepted them to be true and then people just pasted them into their religious scriptures. This is another crucial question we need to answer when we are having this debate, because if god exists, we need to know which god exists. Maybe you @Erfisflat or @Evidence have some ideas, but I haven't seen any. Thank you ErfisFlat for joining into this debate.

    PyromanGaming
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1618 Pts
    edited June 18
    @PyromanGaming said:

    " I want to respond to your arguments. The first argument I made, while I question the angular size making it so that you see farther in the second image, I don't think that I can empirically demonstrate if you or I am right about this. Maybe you have some images or ways to demonstrate this? We would need some very long flat plain. Maybe there are some images online showing this demonstrated."

    You're catching on. I'll give the floor back to Mr. Rowbotham for a minute.

    "IF the earth is a globe, and is 25,000 English statute miles in circumference, the surface of all standing water must have a certain degree of convexity--every part must be an arc of a circle. From the summit of any such arc there will exist a curvature or declination of 8 inches in the first statute mile. In the second mile the fall will be 32 inches; in the third mile, 72 inches, or 6 feet, as shown in the following diagram:

    FIG 1
    FIG. 1.

    Let the distance from T to figure 1 represent 1 mile, and the fall from 1 to A, 8 inches; then the fall from 2 to B will be 32 inches, and from 3 to C, 72 inches. In every

    p. 10

    mile after the first, the curvature downwards from the point T increases as the square of the distance multiplied by 8 inches. The rule, however, requires to be modified after the first thousand miles. 1 The following table will show at a glance the amount of curvature, in round numbers, in different distances up to 100 miles.

    Curvature

    in

    1

    statute

    mile

    8

    inches.

    "

    "

    2

    "

    "

    32

    "

    "

    "

    3

    "

    "

    6

    feet.

    "

    "

    4

    "

    "

    10

    "

    "

    "

    5

    "

    "

    16

    "

    "

    "

    6

    "

    "

    24

    "

    "

    "

    7

    "

    "

    32

    "

    "

    "

    8

    "

    "

    42

    "

    "

    "

    9

    "

    "

    54

    "

    "

    "

    10

    "

    "

    66

    "

    "

    "

    20

    "

    "

    266

    "

    "

    "

    30

    "

    "

    600

    "

    "

    "

    40

    "

    "

    1066

    "

    "

    "

    50

    "

    "

    1666

    "

    "

    "

    60

    "

    "

    2400

    "

    "

    "

    70

    "

    "

    3266

    "

    "

    "

    80

    "

    "

    4266

    "

    "

    "

    90

    "

    "

    5400

    "

    "

    "

    100

    "

    "

    6666

     

    "

    "

    120

    "

    "

    9600

    2

     

    p. 11

    It will be seen by this table that after the first few miles the curvature would be so great that no difficulty could exist in detecting either its actual existence or its proportion. Experiments made on the sea shore have been objected to on account of the constantly changing altitude of the surface of the water, and of the existence of banks and channels which produce a "crowding" of the waters, as well as currents and other irregularities. Standing water has therefore been selected, and many important experiments have been made, the most simple of which are the following:--

    In the county of Cambridge there is an artificial river or canal, called the "Old Bedford." It is upwards of twenty miles in length, and (except at the part referred to at page 16) passes in a straight line through that part of the Fens called the "Bedford Level." The water is nearly stationary--often completely so, and throughout its entire length has no interruption from locks or water-gates of any kind; so that it is, in every respect, well adapted for ascertaining whether any or what amount of convexity really exists."


    We could speculate on plains and such,  but these aren't nearly as flat the one substance that makes up 2/3 of the earth, water. If you're standing on the shore of a 57 mile wide lake, the water would have a "hump" in the middle, correct? Let's use the formula.


    (57X57)8=3,749 X 8 = 25,992" or,  2, 166 feet of declination from the highest point. A hump of water over 2,000 feet high must exist over 57 miles of water, if the earth was a ball that is 25,000 miles in circumference. 57 miles is roughly the distance between warren dunes state park and Chicago. Of course, this doesn't account for observer height, so we can go to an online calculator, but first we must have the observer's height.

    For an observer 266 feet above sea level, which is the highest dune at warren dunes, 

    https://www.michigan.org/property/warren-dunes-state-park

    https://dizzib.github.io/earth/curve-calc/?d0=57&h0=266&unit=imperial

    Which gives us a horizon at only 19 miles, and a target hidden height of over 914 feet. 


    We then do a quick search to see how tall the building in Chicago are.

    First in at 1,729' is Willis Tower,  formerly The Sears Tower. Five more buildings exist over 900 feet, so we could possibly see up to 6 buildings, provided decent visibility and relatively calm water.


    We can now match this to what we actually see.




    This is but one of very many curvature tests over water being performed,  I myself have done a few,  proving that water always seeks a level, flat surface, as common sense tells us,  and the earth could not possibly be a sphere that is 25, 000 miles in circumference.


    About the moon,  again, I will point out that the phases of the moon are not caused by the earths shadow, even in your own model,  the smartest of the heliocentrists will tell you this. How would you explain the other half of the phases?





    Time zones seems like a legitimate argument,  if you are mixing the models and thinking the sun is 93, 000, 000 miles away. In the flat earth model, the sun is  much closer and rotates around a circular flat earth, shedding its light locally, causing the time zones.



    Evidence
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1618 Pts
    @PyromanGaming,  ready to recant the statement:

    "I have seen no rational arguments for the existence of god.."?
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • So let's look at your first argument that we wouldn't be able to see as far as we do because there would be too much of an angle. In other words, the horizon would be closer. However, the angle of the earth would be so small over even miles that while it would be a large drop in elevation, you could still see it. It would be like me standing on the upper hypotenuse of this triangle and the thing that i'm seeing is lower down on the hypotenuse.
    Image result for acute triangle

    This still does create a horizon, I'm not denying that, but there would be such little curvature over miles and miles that the horizon would be so far away.

    Now let's look at the second argument about the moon. Because the moon orbits the earth at a different rate than the earth turns, the moon would get all of these phases at some point. We have seen this by observing the phases of the moon. My question is how does the heliocentric model explain these phases? (I'm not implying that it doesn't I'm sure it does I'm just curious).

    Let's now finally look at the idea behind the time zones and how the heliocentric model explains it. In the heliocentric model because the sun is so close and much dimmer than in the round model, this would mean that places like Los Angeles according to your model GIF would be brighter during the day than places like Calgary.

    This is a picture of Los Angeles:Image result for los angeles

    And this is a picture of Calgary:
    Image result for calgary

    Both are similar brightness, contradicting your heliocentric model, which suggests that Los Angeles would be much brighter. I do not think that any of these arguments are rational, but maybe I am wrong.
  • One more thing: what is the gravity model like in heliocentric earth theory?
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1618 Pts
    @PyromanGaming said:

    "However, the angle of the earth would be so small over even miles that while it would be a large drop in elevation, you could still see it. It would be like me standing on the upper hypotenuse of this triangle and the thing that i'm seeing is lower down on the hypotenuse."

    This doesn't seem to me like a logical argument. The bottom of the right triangle you present as evidence for a spherical earth is flat. True, on a spherical earth,  you could see more as you go higher,  but the same holds true for a flat earth, when you account for angular sizes, or, things being smaller as distance is gained. In other words, a small hill or wave closer to the observer could block someone from seeing the Empire State Building,  hundreds of miles away. You've not included any relevant maths to relate to, and you've also ignored the maths and the evidence that I've presented in my rebuttal. I can only conclude that you have conceded these, and the earth is indeed flat.

    "Now let's look at the second argument about the moon. Because the moon orbits the earth at a different rate than the earth turns, the moon would get all of these phases at some point. "

    This would be the case,  if the earth were a sphere,  which we've already decided with logic and mathematics that it isn't.

    "We have seen this by observing the phases of the moon. My question is how does the heliocentric model explain these phases? (I'm not implying that it doesn't I'm sure it does I'm just curious)."

    I'm guessing (I cannot say without doubt, as my research basically consists of the earth) the moon works essentially the same way as in the heliocentrist model,  without the "orbits the earth". The moon follows the sun around it's track over the earth, visible only when it is near an observer. Some flat earthers have concluded that the moon does not reflect the sun's light, but that it sheds it's own. Rowbotham says: "The moon is both self-illuminated and semi-transparent." 

    Seeing that both eclipses have been dropped as well as the earth causing any round shadows on the moon,  we can definitely conclude that pointing at the moon is now a non-sequitor,  or is entirely irrelevant at this point, having nothing to do with the shape of the earth.

    By the way, for future references, you are arguing for spherical heliocentrism, I am arguing for flat geocentrism.

    " In the heliocentric model because the sun is so close and much dimmer than in the round model, this would mean that places like Los Angeles according to your model GIF would be brighter during the day than places like Calgary."

    I never said that the sun would be "dimmer" in the flat model. I said it was much closer. The same amount of light would reach those cities,  only at different angles,  depending on the time of the year. This is a strawman argument.


    As for gravity on a flat geocentric earth, the theory that all physical objects are attracted to each other proportional to their mass and distance is incoherent. We can empirically observe magnetics as an attractive force, but gravity seems to only work for planet size physical objects. Things can be better explained with basic laws of buoyancy and density. 

    The way an objects acts in any fluid, (which is defined as: a substance that has no fixed shape and yields easily to external pressure; a gas or (especially) a liquid), depends entirely on it's density, which dictates it's buoyancy. Here is a good explanation from Darrel Dragoo:


    “‘Gravity’ is simply density and buoyancy. People argue that things with different densities fall at the same rate through air. However, that is because both items have reached critical density in relation to its medium: air. If you were to change the medium from air to say, water or liquid mercury, the critical density to achieve the same rate of falling would increase significantly. Critical density is directly proportional to the medium density. Thus the denser the medium. The denser the objects would have to be in order to achieve the same rate of falling. A basketball and a rock might fall at the same speed in air. However. Drop them in a thicker medium like water. And they will not fall at the same rate. That is because critical density has not been achieved by both the rock and the basketball, in water as its medium. In a vacuum, critical density is zero and is the reason why objects of any density fall at exactly the same rate. Any medium denser than a vacuum has a greater critical density than zero. Thus the reason why objects that haven’t attained critical density fall slower in certain mediums. Critical density variation is ‘gravity’.” – Darrell Dragoo

    Gravity and relativity are lies  established by trickery and maintained by propaganda.
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • JudaismJudaism 175 Pts
    Oh now! It's the flat earth people again!
    Erfisflat
  • JudaismJudaism 175 Pts
    I meant "Oh no!"
    Erfisflat
  • JudaismJudaism 175 Pts
    I explained in the past how the Holy Zohar is against a flat earth, but they never listen. Oh well, is the moon a ship again?
    ErfisflatEvidence
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1618 Pts
    Judaism said:
    Oh now! It's the flat earth people again!
    We never left,  we're only multiplying, where did you and your holy book go?
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1618 Pts
    edited June 19
    And for a change, one argues with science,  math and logic, another with "but, but, muh holy book!"
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • JudaismJudaism 175 Pts
    @Erfisflat

    My holy book happens to agree with science, your's. . . laughable. 
    Evidence
  • JudaismJudaism 175 Pts
    @Erfisflat 

    I didn't mean to start up a new debate with you, I'd rather not waste my time. We all know the Zohar is divine, it was penned by the Rashbi 2,000 years ago, so what it says must be true. If you won't accept that, go talk to Bill Nye and Neil Degrasse Tyson. What's so funny about you people is that - from your perspective - Jesus is tru, right? Well, I've seen many of you guys before shouting out to missionaries on the street things like: "you've been deceived! The Devil's got ya!" So I guess proving the flat earth must be more important to ya than Jesus. Good thing I'm a Jew!
    Evidence
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1618 Pts
    Judaism said:
    @Erfisflat

    My holy book happens to agree with science, your's. . . laughable. 
    Unsupported claim.
    Evidence
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • ErfisflatErfisflat 1618 Pts
    "I didn't mean to start up a new debate with you, I'd rather not waste my time."

    That's what you appeared to be doing. It's called a taunt. Except you've offered no evidence except "but, but, muh holy book!" 

    "We all know the Zohar is divine, it was penned by the Rashbi 2,000 years ago, so what it says must be true."

    Another unsupported claim. "We all" DON'T "know" this. What dictate this "divinity"? Age? Because you say so? 

    " If you won't accept that, go talk to Bill Nye and Neil Degrasse Tyson."

    They won't debate me,  I've tried to contact them. I've given adequate rebuttals to their overused "proofs" of a spherical earth already. This is an open debate and you are just trolling. Why don't you see what they have to say and parrot them. This would be a more logical argument than "muh holy book says so" or "Niel and Bill say so".

    "What's so funny about you people is that - from your perspective - Jesus is tru, right? Well, I've seen many of you guys before shouting out to missionaries on the street things like: "you've been deceived! The Devil's got ya!" So I guess proving the flat earth must be more important to ya than Jesus. Good thing I'm a Jew!"

    This is a false stereotype fallacy. This isn’t an argument, but just an assertion, one not even based on any kind of facts.  Stereotypes such as these usually arise from prejudice, ignorance, jealousy, or even hatred. You are essentially a troll.

    @Judaism
    Pseudoscience: noun; a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.

    Scientific method: noun; a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

    https://www.gofundme.com/mwmvf-is-the-earth-flat

    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.

    Wayne Dyer
  • JudaismJudaism 175 Pts
    I don'y care if you think I'm trolling or not. If you do, I'll leave this page because I don't want to be kicked out of Debate Island. I've got other things to write about. 

    The Zohar is divine not because of age, but because it said the world is round, that they're 7 continents, which, by the way, came out of one big one. That's just two proofs. Do you want more? The Talmud (another commentary, deals mostly with halacha) says they're 10^18 stars in the universe. Pretty huge claim, don't you think? It says on other places (agreeing with the Zohar) that man evolved, that up to Enoch's generation, their faces were monkeys. It says Adam once had a tale, and that other species of human walked around at this time. Rabbi Nachman said the Big Bang happened - he describes it actually in some great detail. But what about the age of the universe? Does Judaism say anything on that? Yes! And its not 6,000 years old! You'll read about that in my next post, but all of this proves Judaism is true. Case closed.
    Erfisflat
  • JudaismJudaism 175 Pts
    @Erfisflat 

    The following comes from my blog on Judaism:

    What is the age of the universe? This has perhaps been the focal question of philosophy for centuries, and the rabbis were no different, especially with such an important kasha (question) as this. The Torah (Genesis-Deuteronomy), when counting all the 26 generations from Adam to Moshe (Moses), and then all the way to the present day, lends itself to a blundering cosmology of 6,000 years (approximately), as denoted by both the religious and scholarly community at large. It is a blunder because everything from radioactive carbon dating to the extensive fossil record at our display in any museum shows that our universe is mere billions of years old. When one further considers the discoveries of further scientific study, such as ice core samples, geologic layering, the cosmic microwave background, red-shifting of stars, and the parallax of galaxies, it’s one landslide after another, tumbling Judaism to the ground with a knockout blow to the divine status of the Torah. To those who accept this view, the Torah is no longer valid and Judaism has just died. 

    But what if I told you this doesn't have to be the case? What if I told you that the scholars are wrong, and that Judaism does in fact agree with our most recent findings, and that these rabbinic writings are centuries old?

    Well, how does that make sense with the account in Bereshit (Genesis)? Let me explain. G-d created everything 15 billion years ago (this is stated in Kabbalah), man evolved (stated in the Talmud/Zohar), and that it was all an act of G-d (as stated in Bereshit Aleph). But the Rambam (12th century sage) said that most all of Bereshit, especially the creation account, was metaphorical. Hence, HaShem (G-d, Hebrew for "No Name") first created the world with Midot HaDin (judgment), but then added Midot HaRachamim (mercy) after, hence, the world's birthday isn't what's celebrated on Rosh Hashanah, but Adam HaRishon in the last shemitah (cosmic cycle, 7 in total, like the Yovel). The reason for adding mercy is stated in Rashi (11th century biblical commentator), he says that the world would have been too harsh a place of judgment otherwise. Thankfully, Yitzchak deMin Acco (14th century sage) calculated for us the age of the universe via the Sefer HaTemunah (penned by the Tanna Nehunya ben ha-Kanah, a kabbalistic text) and Book of Psalms (90:4); we further know he believed in the Zohar because he wrote Otzar HaChaim nearly 20 years after his investigation of the Zohar (main kabbalistic work), which confirms it.

    Here's his calculation:

    42,000 x 365,250 = 15.3 billion.

    Keep in mind that the 42,000 years were considered divine years (known to use by the Sefer HaTemunah) [1], each lasting 1,000 years, as Psalms suggests. This is why Judaism matches perfectly with both creation and evolution, and these things were discussed centuries ago, let's say about c. 1200 CE, so no apologetic here! Modern science has concluded in the last two centuries that the universe is 15 billion years old, and while some scientists do claim its more like ~13 billion, some stars are obviously older than that! Hence, G-d revealed to the rabbis the age of the universe. Why would He do this? Because it is stated in Yeshayahu (Isaiah) 45:18-19:

    "For so said Adonai (Hebrew for Lord), the Creator of heaven, Who is G-d, Who formed the earth and made it, He established it; He did not create it for waste, He formed it to be inhabited, 'I am Adonai and there is no other. I did not speak in secret, in a place of a land of darkness; I did not say to the seed of Jacob, Seek Me, in vain; I am Adonai, Who speaks righteousness, [and] declares things that are right.'"

    What's the central point of this passage? 

    "I did not say to the seed of Jacob, Seek Me, in vain...."

    G-d wants us to find Him, and the divine knowledge that the universe is actually billions of years old, is part of that discovery. May we praise HaShem!
    ____________

    Footnote:

    1. Originally, The Sefer HaTemunah says that the universe will only exist for 42,000 years. That number jumps to 49,000 when one adds the Messianic Age. However, remember what I said earlier, that there are 7 cosmic cycles in total, each lasting for a 1,000 years? Well, Yitzchak deMin Acco had a revelation, in which those previous 42,000 years were divine years, and hence, a day on earth = a 1,000 on G-d's end. This, of course, was counted for in his calculation of the age of the universe.

    ________________________________________________________________

    What now say you! Earthisflat!
    ErfisflatEvidence
  • JudaismJudaism 175 Pts
    @Erfisflat 

    I JUST PROVED to you that Judaism is TRUE, as well as the Zohar, therefore, the world is a sphere. End of case.
    ErfisflatEvidence
  • JudaismJudaism 175 Pts
    @Erfisflat 

    Oh, and by the way, creation in 6 days is just metaphor, it was done in maaseh (G-d's thought, planning stage). This is a very, very Jewish concept.
    Erfisflatcheesycheese
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