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Knowing Jesus is the only way to be saved. Change my mind.
in Religion

By YeshuaBoughtYeshuaBought 83 Pts
Evidence
https://www.blueletterbible.org/ Feel free to click my signature for Bible study. That's what it's there for!
http://prewrathrapture.com/
https://prewrathministries.org/













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Persuaded Argument

  • Mr_BombasticMr_Bombastic 103 Pts
    Winning Argument ✓
    @YeshuaBought
    Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life. No man comes unto the  Father but by Me."
    Evidencewith_all_humility



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Arguments

  • Polaris95Polaris95 65 Pts
    Two questions: 1. Saved from what, exactly? 2. Do you mean knowing Jesus personally, or knowing his teachings?
    George_HorseSkepticalOne
  • EvidenceEvidence 763 Pts
    @YeshuaBought - "Knowing Jesus is the only way to be saved"   I sure wouldn't want to change your mind about that.

    The way I understand it is that Abraham believed in the "coming Savior", as we see it in:

    Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, “My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering.” So the two of them went together.

    The question is, which Jesus, or which Messiah/Savior was Abraham referring to? Is it the Jesus-sun-god that these two otherwise intelligent and wonderful "Christians" have been indoctrinated to believe, .. which as far as I can see from Scripture is none other than Lucifer, that serpent of old, the Devil?
    Or are they talking about; Gods Only Begotten son Word, the first, the beginning of all of Gods creation, as Jesus referred to himself: "Alpha and Omega" (ironically the name of the Ministry) ?

    I was amazed at the knowledge and comprehension of the two Christian Debaters, yet how is it that after so many years of them reading the Bible, and even having been schooled on the Bible and now being Teachers and Ministers at such high level as Professors in this field, like James White author of over 20 books on the Bible including "The Forgotten Trinity", .. how could he so nonchalantly refer to Jesus as "God"!?

    Thank you YeshuaBought, this is a good subject to debate because it includes; predestination, inclusivism, free will, Gods real purpose all of which I am still struggling to understand!?
    Is it my Christian upbringing, or has there been other verses added/deleted from Scripture that would explain it more clearly, or both?

    God bless us with wisdom that comes from above!
  • Mr_BombasticMr_Bombastic 103 Pts
    edited July 11
    @Evidence

    Regarding your comment about predestination, there is no such thing. Some people claim that predestination is real because God knows everything that will ever happened. This does not negate freedom of choice. It merely means that God knows what that choice will be.
    EvidenceØpålwith_all_humility
  • @Polaris95 Saved fom eternal damnation. Jesus saved me spiritually and provided physical salvation as well. I was going to commit suicide when I was 15, but when Jesus saved me from my sins, I found hope in Him. He loves you, and was tortured to death on the cross to purchase salvation for you if you repent and cofess Him as risen Lord.
    Evidence
    https://www.blueletterbible.org/ Feel free to click my signature for Bible study. That's what it's there for!
    http://prewrathrapture.com/
    https://prewrathministries.org/













  • EvidenceEvidence 763 Pts
    @Evidence

    Regarding your comment about predestination, there is no such thing. Some people claim that predestination is real because God knows everything that will ever happened. This does not negate freedom of choice. It merely means that God knows what that choice will be.
    @Mr_Bombastic Thank you, I too take the "freedom of choice" train of thought, my question to @YeshuaBought was regarding the Trinity, which Dr. James White is a big defender of. Can we trust a Christian who defends the Trinity, or the triune-gods ideology?

    We know that the three-gods-in-one is the foundation of the RCC created Christian Religion, and we have, or should have learned from history just how wicked this organization was over the past 1,700 years, and who they truly worship.

    Their knowledge of the Bible is impeccable, up to the point in defining God, His son Word, and the Holy Spirit. Let's look at these Christians symbolism and their hidden messages in their ministry, particularly hidden hand signs:

    As above-so below


    https://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Religions/Wicca & Witchcraft/signs_of_satan.htm



    James White   time 8:06


    Related image

    James White  time 8:25 just before he says:"I believe the Bible, because the Bible teaches it" and then tells us what the Bible teaches.


    Also he continues at time 10:03 again at time 11:30, .. 11:46-49, .. 

    Image result for pic of as above so below hand sign


    time 12:31 James White devil horns like;



    just like in time 2:34 Kenneth Copeland
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 415 Pts
    @Polaris95 Saved fom eternal damnation. Jesus saved me spiritually and provided physical salvation as well. I was going to commit suicide when I was 15, but when Jesus saved me from my sins, I found hope in Him. He loves you, and was tortured to death on the cross to purchase salvation for you if you repent and cofess Him as risen Lord.
    Jesus saved you from committing suicide. What if I am not intending to commit suicide? What do I have to be saved from then? 

    Next, you found emotional support in one particular religion - Christianity - with one particular exemplar of it - Jesus of Nazareth. Many people find emotional support in other religions (on the Middle East, for example, many find salvation in Mohammed; in Israel, in Abraham and Moses), philosophical teachings (Confucianism, Hedonism, Cynicism, Descartism, Nietzsche's teachings), subcultures (Emo, Goth, Hippie). I personally follow my own brand of philosophy I call optimism, where the presumption is that having positive outlook on things leads to the positive outcomes with regards to those things - without any teachers, I simply learn how to control and shape my thought processes in order to consistently feel happy, and I rely in this solely on myself and my brain.

    The above demonstrates that knowing Jesus is far from the only way to be saved (from what, we still have not determined), albeit it is one of possible ways.
  • EvidenceEvidence 763 Pts
    MayCaesar said:
    @Polaris95 Saved fom eternal damnation. Jesus saved me spiritually and provided physical salvation as well. I was going to commit suicide when I was 15, but when Jesus saved me from my sins, I found hope in Him. He loves you, and was tortured to death on the cross to purchase salvation for you if you repent and cofess Him as risen Lord.
    Jesus saved you from committing suicide. What if I am not intending to commit suicide? What do I have to be saved from then? 

    Next, you found emotional support in one particular religion - Christianity - with one particular exemplar of it - Jesus of Nazareth. Many people find emotional support in other religions (on the Middle East, for example, many find salvation in Mohammed; in Israel, in Abraham and Moses), philosophical teachings (Confucianism, Hedonism, Cynicism, Descartism, Nietzsche's teachings), subcultures (Emo, Goth, Hippie). I personally follow my own brand of philosophy I call optimism, where the presumption is that having positive outlook on things leads to the positive outcomes with regards to those things - without any teachers, I simply learn how to control and shape my thought processes in order to consistently feel happy, and I rely in this solely on myself and my brain.

    The above demonstrates that knowing Jesus is far from the only way to be saved (from what, we still have not determined), albeit it is one of possible ways.
    @MayCaesar said: The above demonstrates that knowing Jesus is far from the only way to be saved (from what, we still have not determined), albeit it is one of possible ways.

    Take any of the above Religions and show how one is saved, let's start with the RCC/Constantine created Christianity's Jesus the sun-god, who is claimed to be the Godhead of the three-gods as one?

    Image result for pic of catholic sun worship Related imageImage result for pic of catholic sun worshipRelated image

    Ask yourself: Who do you put your Faith in? We see "father", holy spirit, son, who is the god in the middle?



    Related image Related image

    Image result for pic of catholic sun worship



    Then we can go on to Islam's Crescent Moon

    Image result for pic of Islams crescent moon worship
    Related image

    Image result for pic of Islams crescent moon worship   Related image


    then to Israel's Star of David's version of Abraham and Moses:

    SoD as above so below collage1

    85378-33tg2on2e3z6vj2ozq4ynw2v7ac0yyh7

    Related image

    Related image

    All these Religions, Christianity's sun-god, Islam's moon-god, Israel's star of David, Hinduism, all the ancient Egyptian gods, Buddhism, .. all are related, so please my friends, let's not conflate these Religions with Jesus teachings found only in the Bible.

    Image result for PIC jACK IN THE BOX THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX


    THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX/RELIGION and Read the Bible as if for the first time!


    WordsMatter
  • Jesus saved me from my sins.
    Evidence
    https://www.blueletterbible.org/ Feel free to click my signature for Bible study. That's what it's there for!
    http://prewrathrapture.com/
    https://prewrathministries.org/













  • @MayCaesar I tend to agree with you. Personally I find Buddhism to be the most enlightening religion, guiding me on how to be both kind and at peace on this Earth. I feel I don't have enough information to confirm or deny the existence of a god, or particularly a specific god. I feel if I was born in Iran for example, I would have been raised Muslim, and that choice wouldn't have been my own. This is why I don't identify with Christianity even though I was raised that way. However, if there is a god, I feel as long as I am good and kind to others I don't understand why I wouldn't be accepted into a positive afterlife. If I cured cancer and have away the cure for free, but didn't explicitly say Jesus is the true Lord, would god really be just in condemning me to hell for all eternity?
  • @Evidence Wow, so many strawmans. You have not changed my mind. I am not a egging pagan, I belong to the one true God eternally existant in 3 Persons. Here is some evidence. 
    https://www.blueletterbible.org/ Feel free to click my signature for Bible study. That's what it's there for!
    http://prewrathrapture.com/
    https://prewrathministries.org/













  • EvidenceEvidence 763 Pts
    @Evidence Wow, so many strawmans. You have not changed my mind. I am not a egging pagan, I belong to the one true God eternally existant in 3 Persons. Here is some evidence. 

    @YeshuaBought ;
    That's fine, so far I have not found one Christian who would, or could give up their Religion and the three gods that they worship. I have shown you evidence after evidence, all backed up from the Bible, and then you give me this video?

    This is about as bad as my, ..  used to be favorite Pastor Adrian Rogers, who, me and my family were watching one Sunday morning, when he was asked if he could help the younger generation understand the Trinity Doctrine. As he finished up his sermon, he came to the time when he was to open the younger member understanding on this important subject. He said:
    This was Adrian Rogers on TV - (sometime around 2010)

    "On the Trinity, .. this is what I have to say;
    Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
    Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
    All the king’s horses and all the king’s men
    Couldn’t put Humpty together again, .. now this speaks for me!"

    And the audience cheered, the Lord is my witness the whole congregation applauded and clapped.

    I have been looking for that Sunday sermon for years, but just cant find it on YouTube, or on the Love-Worth-Finding web sight.
    Or, I don't know, do you think that was a good explanation on the Trinity for the younger generation by Pastor Adrian?

    Anyways, I already explained most of the false claims in this video, including the scripture verse that was added by the Vatican the three that bear witness; the father, the son and the spirit, but I know, the Trinity is just like the Flat Earth for 99.5% of Christians, it goes in one ear, and comes out the other, and from my observation, it's not really intentional, it's just that the Spirit of Truth is just not present to make that person listen. They see my lips move, they can read my writing, but something like a veil is over their ears and eyes. And to tell you the truth, only God can lift that veil.

    Mathew 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

    11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

    12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

    13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

    14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

    15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    But you know what, take a few points made in the video, and tell me the times and I will answer them from the Bible, if you truly are interested to know if this Doctrine is Biblical or not> But if you are like this YouTube Minister who has about 1,000 videos of debates, the president of CAnswersTV Larry Wessel who after 3 hours of debate admitted that everything I sad was Biblical, that he can't really disagree with my understanding of Jesus and his relation to God the Father.

    So after showing him the house, thinking he may have changed his mind, and as he was ready to leave I asked him straight out: "So are you going to denounce this three in one gods doctrine?" and this was his answer:

    He smiled, then looked up to the ceiling and said: "Even if God Himself came down and told me to leave the Trinity, I would refuse!"
    Right after he said this, he gasped, and tried to explain: "I know how bad that sounded, .. but, .. look I don't want to talk about this anymore"
    I asked if he wanted to do an official TV live debate some time with me on this subject? And he said no, and that it is unlikely if we would ever meet again.

    Here is his YouTube channel:





    He has over a thousand debates with just about every religion; Mormon, Muslim, JW's 7DA, Hindus, Buddhists, on college campuses regarding atheism, .. everything, yet he refused to have a debate with me on the Trinity??

    That makes about hundred for me, including a lot of TV ministers. What is it that like this guy Larry Wessel who debated Muslims on College Campuses, creating some angry Muslims, and yet act so scared to debate me?

  • NOT knowing a Jesus or other fictional characters, except Harry Potter, saved me from religious nonsense. And being saved from what? You haven't even stated what you would be saved from. 
    Nathaniel_B
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? " ~Epicurus

    "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." ~Gene Roddenberry

    "A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill
  • janesixjanesix 28 Pts
    Only you can save yourself, from yourself
    Outplayz
  • @George_Horse
    I see you like to quote Epicurus, but when Epicurus wrote those words he was speaking of the many Greek gods that were worshiped during his time.  Epicurus words were not questioning the existence of the God of the Bible as you seem to imply. 

    Then Gene Roddenberry's quote just shows how little he knows the Bible and of its teachings.  It's easy to be on the peripheral an make fun of things you know little about.  

    Peace!
  • @with_all_humility

    But the Greek gods were much more down-to-Earth, than the Christian god. The Greek gods all had their flaws, struggles for power, selfishness and arrogance; they served different functions, including "good", "neutral" and even "evil" gods. They were very human-like, with the exception of having enhanced powers.

    The Christian god, on the other hand, is supposed to be perfect and unquestionably right. In a way, where the Greek would seek understanding, Christians seek justification. The Greek had a much more critical, analytical and logical approach, than Christians whose religion is very authoritarian and is based on serving a single central entity with absolute devotion.

    In this context, the Epicurus' quote supports criticism of modern monotheistic religions very well.
    SkepticalOnewith_all_humilityNathaniel_B
  • @Mr_Bombastic

    If this is true, and i believe it... will i go to heaven? Basically, when i say i believe it, i mean i admit Jesus is my lord and savior. I put all my trust and heart into knowing he died for my sins and repenting. If i do this... will i go to heaven? If the answer is yes... Which heaven do you go to bc i am pretty sure you won't like my heaven? 

    Description of my heaven: Rainy year round, sunshine maybe only a month or two... Oregon is a good example. Furthermore, since this is my heaven... i will be a vampire. I will first be a wild vampire when i just turn and likely kill people (that will come back to life anyways when they turn). I will then later help others from the vampires i created and teach them a vegan lifestyle. Find love, and live eternally. That is my heaven that i am sure god will give me bc i have been loyal and live life with very little sin. I repent if i even do make the slightest of offenses for the very little sin i commit. So, will you be in my heaven? 
  • EtrnlVwEtrnlVw 32 Pts
    @Outplayz just to expand on what you mean, is this type of heaven one you created or someone else created?.....if you created it would you really consider your own Heaven a "heaven", meaning that what if you could create that type of heaven for others that like that dream, and perhaps you went to someone else's vampire haven except you are the same character you want to be. Wouldn't part of the fun about going into some type of heaven be that its mysterious in a way? If you knew every crack of your vampire heaven, every mountain and cave that would be kind of boring unless there was a vampire Kingdom you could temporally visit.
    I guess it could work if you built your vampire creation like that of a hologram, where your soul could go into the world you created and forget it all through birth. Somehow though I find it more fascinating to explore someone else's heaven perhaps, maybe that's what people find interesting about abiding in another Gods heaven, it's the mystery factor lol. What is you opinion on that? that's an interesting question...
    John 17

    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

    23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


  • @Outplayz

    I'm sure you already know this, but I say it just in case others don't.  Heaven in the Biblical sense is not about you or me, it is all about glorifying God.  Heaven is not an individual construct like the Matrix but is the dwelling of God the Father and His Son sitting at His right hand.  So, heaven is for those who love the Lord and those individuals will get to spend an eternity worshiping the Creator.  
  • @EtrnlVw

    You know ultimately, i believe there will be multiple "heavens." I am just trying to make this person think bc the first question that should get theists thinking... "how do you account for what people believe is heaven?" Some think heaven is day, some think heaven is night. Some want adventure, some want a romantic comedy. It is a contradiction theist don't think of, that i've noticed... other than being immortal in "one" heaven for the rest of time is insanity.  

    I believe what you said is ultimately what we will do. I can create my own reality over and over, but what is the fun in that. As a musician, if i could only listen to my own songs, or what i create... i would go mad. How good does it feel that another human is creative, imaginative, with your same sense of taste, showing you their creation and blowing your mind. That is one of the best feelings. 

    Accordingly, i feel someone else's creation of heaven is preferable. As our higher selves, we will be able to view these "heavens" and decide if there is a character within that reality we would like to live. So, likely, my first couple of realities will be of my own making just to have fun... i imagine after this life a little immortality and fun is going to be necessary to blow off some steam lol... but, when that is said and done, the one's that can choose... not everyone can if they don't believe they can, i think it is likely we will choose a pre-made reality by someone else.    
  • @MayCaesar

    Yes, we can pull anything out of context and put in another context to make an argument...it called a pretext.
  • @Outplayz

    I'm not trying to be sarcastic with you, I'm just genuinely intrigued by your concept of Heaven.  My question is what do you base your concept of heaven on?  I've heard other describe heaven in terms of their self-desire but the could not explain where they got the idea from.
  • OutplayzOutplayz 88 Pts
    edited August 6
    @with_all_humility

    @Outplayz

    I'm sure you already know this, but I say it just in case others don't.  Heaven in the Biblical sense is not about you or me, it is all about glorifying God.  Heaven is not an individual construct like the Matrix but is the dwelling of God the Father and His Son sitting at His right hand.  So, heaven is for those who love the Lord and those individuals will get to spend an eternity worshiping the Creator.  
    And this makes sense to you? This is something you are looking forward to? For eternity? If so, i feel bad for your individual self for i think religion has taken away your love for yourself. This is insanity. This is madness. And, if that is what heaven is... or the Bible says it is, i know even more the Bible is wrong, or at the very least, i would be happy to just not exist or even go to hell instead, for what you are describing sounds like a "sunny" hell to me... Actually, i am quite sure what you are describing is hell. 
    Nathaniel_B
  • edited August 6
    @Outplayz

    I'm sorry you feel that way, don't take my word for it.  Read for yourself.  That's why I asked you where your concept of heaven comes from. I guess I might ask which love must be greater?  The love of self or the love of Christ and the Father in Heaven?

    Mat 10.37-39:  He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

  • @with_all_humility

    My heaven is simply existing as myself in another reality. I believe i am currently in heaven in this life. And, in this life i am preparing myself for the next "heaven" i will live in. The concept is bc immortality is insanity. You cannot, and this is the only thing i generalize, be in only one mindset eternally. I believe that is impossible for conscious beings. Therefore, mortality would be a logical creation of an immortal consciousness. Mortality allows you to live and experience. Therefore, my next "heaven" will be "living" as just another character as myself. I believe some can choose, but not all. There are a few levels to it, but once you can choose... and, everyone can if they believe they can.. you can choose to be a character you want to experience in your next life "heaven" ... a vampire is just one of many characters i know i will live. 

    The contradiction to the Bible's heaven is that i find rainy, dark, scary to some, things are heaven. I find death metal to be music to my ears. Goth / emo / straight edge / punk clothing to be my outfit. The way i see heaven looking is much different than a person opposite to me. Therefore, i don't see how "one" heaven will be able to accommodate everyone's heaven. Some think heaven would be to sit on clouds and eat all day... etc. There are many different people and how they view what they like. All this, plus immortality in one place being madness, has drove me away from any religion promising this madness. 
  • EtrnlVwEtrnlVw 32 Pts
    @Outplayz Yep, but perhaps you mean "most" Theist :) after all these are Theist type of discussions I would say as it falls outside the parameters of naturalism most of the time, typically the fundamentalists don't give much thought in the matter to them it's a done deal but that doesn't account for all Theists. Then there are the hard headed rebel ones like us! another thing to think about though, perhaps there's many things to do and explore in the Christian Heaven and you could imagine what a God could come up with that's much more advanced than a human.
    I agree, I want to do both. I want to create one heck of a heaven or world and I also want to be a soul traveler and visit but I...like you want to blow other souls minds that would be really fun especially since I'm creative at heart. It would be kind of cool though if you had a type of "home" or permanent place within the world you created when you just want to be done for awhile. 

    Another neat thing about someone else's heaven is that the souls you meet will be by chance and not by your will. The characters will then create their own chemistry with one another but it could go good or bad depending where you visit and who the soul is. The subtle bodies or spirit bodies that depart the physical body last much longer so it should definitely be a place where souls want to hang for awhile lol. There are some beautiful cities located in the astral plane that many souls rave about, called the city of lights known as "Sahasra-Dal-Kanwal" and there is a spiritual ruler there, this is also where the infamous thousand petal lotus is situated I believe. Souls make it here and think its the final heaven but they aren't aware yet the God-worlds are endless.

    John 17

    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

    23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


  • @Outplayz

    I'm sorry you feel that way, don't take my word for it.  Read for yourself.  That's why I asked you where your concept of heaven comes from. I guess I might ask which love must be greater?  The love of self or the love of Christ and the Father in Heaven?

    Mat 10.37-39:  He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.


    @Outplayz

    Of course a book written in the time of Kings where men were made to bow down to another man would say that. Individuality must be taken away from people in order for the powerful to control. You show me that scripture and i can clearly see "man" in it... human made authority seeking power. 

    In this life, would you bow down to any other man? What if this man was as perfect as Jesus, but not Jesus, would you bow down to him? Why is it all the sudden when you die... you want to get down on your knees and bow down to another? Why does this other want you to give up your power to him? It is sad the power the religious give up. You are the one that will be eternally traveling as you... take care of yourself, take care of your own mind... respect other's that deserve it on the way, but yeah... always love yourself above all else. This should be obvious from your observation of its power here. In no case can you give me were loving someone else is better than loving yourself.  
  • @Outplayz

    I appreciate you taking the time to explain your position, I did not mean to offend you...Far from my motives.  I just wanted to understand where you were coming from and how you came about your beliefs.  

    Thanks for sharing!
  • @EtrnlVw

    Yeah i should have said "religious" ... i forget some theists have awesome beliefs, i think you might be a part of that lol. 

    The thing you said about "god"

    perhaps there's many things to do and explore in the Christian Heaven and you could imagine what a God could come up with that's much more advanced than a human.

    You forget... i believe, for the very same reasons it is awesome to us, it is just as awesome the the first source for another to take his/her hands and say come check out my heaven. I believe the first source is having an individual experience...it's the only thing we differ in. But, yes... if the first source isn't an extrovert i would check its heaven out lol.  
  • @with_all_humility

    I didn't mean to come across as offended. I get passionate about it sometimes and use strong words bc i really do think it is insanity to be in one heaven. 

    How do you find a way around what i find impossible being that i find living as one person in one heaven eternally would drive you to madness? Also, what do you think heaven could be like considering the contradictions in different beliefs of what heaven is? 

    I'm driving home from work soon, so i will get back to you when i get home. But, i'm curious to your answers. I'm new here, although i have heard many answers to this question. Unfortunately, none persuasive. Maybe you got something though... understand my belief... i think everyone is divine and as powerful as they imagine they are. You are basically a god in my eyes. So, you will always have something to teach me. I doubt this point, but i'm still curious how you think these two contradictions can be justified. 
  • with_all_humility said: Mat 10.37-39:  He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

    So I guess we should still worship the white man rather than our own parents right? This is basic idolizing.
    “Communism is evil. Its driving forces are the deadly sins of envy and hatred.” ~Peter Drucker 

    "It's not a gun control problem, it's a cultural control problem."
    Bob Barr
  • Outplayz said:
    @Outplayz

    I'm sorry you feel that way, don't take my word for it.  Read for yourself.  That's why I asked you where your concept of heaven comes from. I guess I might ask which love must be greater?  The love of self or the love of Christ and the Father in Heaven?

    Mat 10.37-39:  He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.


    @Outplayz

    Of course a book written in the time of Kings where men were made to bow down to another man would say that. Individuality must be taken away from people in order for the powerful to control. You show me that scripture and i can clearly see "man" in it... human made authority seeking power. 

    In this life, would you bow down to any other man? What if this man was as perfect as Jesus, but not Jesus, would you bow down to him? Why is it all the sudden when you die... you want to get down on your knees and bow down to another? Why does this other want you to give up your power to him? It is sad the power the religious give up. You are the one that will be eternally traveling as you... take care of yourself, take care of your own mind... respect other's that deserve it on the way, but yeah... always love yourself above all else. This should be obvious from your observation of its power here. In no case can you give me were loving someone else is better than loving yourself.  
    I agree, that the Bible talks about authority, and it's the authority of God and the Son of God.  Very little is discussed on obeying men or earthly rulers just a couple verses in passing.  Romans chapter 13 is one that comes to mind.  In fact, one might say that the New Testament is about rebelling against man-made religions.  That is exactly why the Jews persecuted the Christians, Roman Emporer's demanded individuals to worship them as gods and Christians would rebel to the point of death.  So, the Bible I read is not about bowing down to other men.

    "Why is it all the sudden when you die... you want to get down on your knees and bow down to another?" I'm not sure what you're asking here.

     This should be obvious from your observation of its power here. In no case can you give me were loving someone else is better than loving yourself.  Well, the great "I AM" expects that of you from what I read and understand, but when one really comprehends how much God loves you, there is no issue with submission.  

    Have you ever had a spouse or companion that you loved dearly?  Did you may concessions for him/her? Did you sacrifice some of your love for yourself for that person? 
  • @Outplayz Agreed. I love Yeshua so much.
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  • edited August 7
    with_all_humility said: Mat 10.37-39:  He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

    So I guess we should still worship the white man rather than our own parents right? This is basic idolizing.
    Where did white man come from?   The point of Matthew 10.37-39 which is Jesus talking who is not a white man (correct?) He was telling his disciples that if He did not come to make everyone happy and that if they were not willing to put Him first in their life, then they would not be disciples of his.  He was speaking metaphorically, but in His day as well with some today, parent expect their children to follow the doctrine they prescribe to.  Jesus was warning them that there might come a time that the Jews would have to forsake the parents wishes to follow Him and become His disciples.

    How you get racism out of that bit of passages is beyond me, I guess you've got some blinders on.  Sorry!
  • WowsilWowsil 134 Pts
    To say that Jesus is the only way is nothing more than egotistical, fear and guilt-mongering speculation since there is not one skerrick of evidence whatsoever to indicate the validity of such a statement. @Mr_Bombastic
  • @Wowsil

    Again, are you replying to me? Lol, i'm getting notifications from you. Anyways, i do agree with your statement in regards to religion. But, i would disagree that there is "zero" evidence. There is sufficient evidence to at the very least suspect a spiritual reality. 
  • Outplayz said:
    @Outplayz

    I'm sorry you feel that way, don't take my word for it.  Read for yourself.  That's why I asked you where your concept of heaven comes from. I guess I might ask which love must be greater?  The love of self or the love of Christ and the Father in Heaven?

    Mat 10.37-39:  He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.


    @Outplayz

    Of course a book written in the time of Kings where men were made to bow down to another man would say that. Individuality must be taken away from people in order for the powerful to control. You show me that scripture and i can clearly see "man" in it... human made authority seeking power. 

    In this life, would you bow down to any other man? What if this man was as perfect as Jesus, but not Jesus, would you bow down to him? Why is it all the sudden when you die... you want to get down on your knees and bow down to another? Why does this other want you to give up your power to him? It is sad the power the religious give up. You are the one that will be eternally traveling as you... take care of yourself, take care of your own mind... respect other's that deserve it on the way, but yeah... always love yourself above all else. This should be obvious from your observation of its power here. In no case can you give me were loving someone else is better than loving yourself.  
    I agree, that the Bible talks about authority, and it's the authority of God and the Son of God.  Very little is discussed on obeying men or earthly rulers just a couple verses in passing.  Romans chapter 13 is one that comes to mind.  In fact, one might say that the New Testament is about rebelling against man-made religions.  That is exactly why the Jews persecuted the Christians, Roman Emporer's demanded individuals to worship them as gods and Christians would rebel to the point of death.  So, the Bible I read is not about bowing down to other men.

    "Why is it all the sudden when you die... you want to get down on your knees and bow down to another?" I'm not sure what you're asking here.

     This should be obvious from your observation of its power here. In no case can you give me were loving someone else is better than loving yourself.  Well, the great "I AM" expects that of you from what I read and understand, but when one really comprehends how much God loves you, there is no issue with submission.  

    Have you ever had a spouse or companion that you loved dearly?  Did you may concessions for him/her? Did you sacrifice some of your love for yourself for that person? 

    @with_all_humility

    Would you bow down before god? That is what i meant by getting on you knees before someone. My thing is against worship. There is no person that i love that would want me to submit to them. They hope that i would love them, not require it. God requires love. It's like my loved one saying if you don't kiss me i will divorce you... some may be all about that kind of control, but i'm not. I wouldn't be with anyone that requires love. I don't fall in love with anyone that requires love. If there is a god, he knows that, right? So god should know i wouldn't worship him, love him, respect him, until he makes me fall in love with him first. And, that would require time for my affection is only aroused by being around someone and getting to know them. Not reading about them, not hearing others say anything about them... i require time and physical contact to love someone. Therefore, if a religion says i must submit to love or requires me to love before ever meeting said entity, i don't understand it and furthermore reject it. 
  • Outplayz said:
    @with_all_humility

    I didn't mean to come across as offended. I get passionate about it sometimes and use strong words bc i really do think it is insanity to be in one heaven. 

    How do you find a way around what i find impossible being that i find living as one person in one heaven eternally would drive you to madness? Also, what do you think heaven could be like considering the contradictions in different beliefs of what heaven is? 

    I'm driving home from work soon, so i will get back to you when i get home. But, i'm curious to your answers. I'm new here, although i have heard many answers to this question. Unfortunately, none persuasive. Maybe you got something though... understand my belief... i think everyone is divine and as powerful as they imagine they are. You are basically a god in my eyes. So, you will always have something to teach me. I doubt this point, but i'm still curious how you think these two contradictions can be justified. 
    No worries, I just did not want you to think I was trying to pick a fight.  I'm an inquisitive type of person and seek to understand another point of view.

    I understand, that you may find one heaven to insanity.  I personally have no idea of what heaven will be like, other than what is revealed in a few verses in Bible, and since the original argument was talking about Jesus being the only way, I assumed we were talking about the Christian concept of heaven.  

    "How do you find a way around what I find impossible being that I find living as one person in one heaven eternally would drive you to madness? Also, what do you think heaven could be like considering the contradictions in different beliefs of what heaven is?"

    I guess I don't try to find a way around what you find impossible, I base my understanding upon what is revealed in the Bible.  In truth, the Bible does not explain much about what the afterlife will be like.  You can read in Luke 16.19-31 about the Rich man and Lazarus.  In the account of the rich and Lazarus, we find out that when we die we go to the unseen realm of the dead which is divided into torment and paradise.  Now we are not told much about either place but the rich man asks Lazarus to dip his finger in water and place a drop on his tongue so he may have some relief.   

    I his letter to the Thessalonians Paul give us the best explanation of what happens when we die...

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18  Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.  For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.  According to the LORD's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the LORD, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.  For the LORD himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air. And so we will be with the LORD forever.  Therefore encourage one another with these words.

    I believe EtrnlVw eluded to that our minds/bodies are transformed to that of spiritual beings, the Bible always speaks of the spiritual realm as being eternal.  If this is true then the spiritual mind and body would be equipped/designed to handle eternity.  We have to remember that the carnal mind cannot comprehend the things in the spiritual realm.  Paul explains this in his letter to the Corinthians. 

    1Corintians 2:12-16:  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.  These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.  But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.  But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.  For "WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD THAT HE MAY INSTRUCT HIM?" But we have the mind of Christ.

    As for Heaven, the most we're told is in John's recollection of his vision he had in the book of Revelation in chapter 21.1-7 

    It says...Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.  I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.  And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

    (v5) He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

    (v6) He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty, I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.  But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
    Rev 22.3-5 says...No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.  There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign forever and ever.

    Jesus says in John 14.2..."In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?"

    That's pretty much all that we're give.  There will be no tears, no pain, no more death and so on.  What that looks like, I have no idea, but I don't believe that Heaven is going all about "me" per say.  No will heaven be comprised of each own reality of what heaven is, I don't find any evidence of that.  I can't say for certain that it won't either.  Whatever, heaven is I believe it will be the most joyest place and that there will be no concept of time and therefore the mind will never become bored.

    Can I fathom how that can happen, not for a second, it's beyond my comprehension...I tell myself to be content and be patient for that day to come.  

    I hope I've answered your question, if not let me know what was not made clear and I'll do my best to reclarify my belief.  

    Thanks for taking the time to share your understanding of heaven!




  • @with_all_humility

    Would you bow down before god? That is what i meant by getting on you knees before someone. My thing is against worship. There is no person that i love that would want me to submit to them. They hope that i would love them, not require it. God requires love. It's like my loved one saying if you don't kiss me i will divorce you... some may be all about that kind of control, but i'm not. I wouldn't be with anyone that requires love. I don't fall in love with anyone that requires love. If there is a god, he knows that, right? So god should know i wouldn't worship him, love him, respect him, until he makes me fall in love with him first. And, that would require time for my affection is only aroused by being around someone and getting to know them. Not reading about them, not hearing others say anything about them... i require time and physical contact to love someone. Therefore, if a religion says i must submit to love or requires me to love before ever meeting said entity, i don't understand it and furthermore reject it. 
    If it was required of me to bow I'd be willing to bow but I have not read where one has to bow, we are to show reverence...You speak of you could not love God first, without falling in love with Him first.  I take it that you have never read the Bible.  God has always given unto mankind first, whether bringing the Jews up out of captivity or sending His son to die upon the cross.   God did these things out of His love for man, I contend when you truly study the bible and understand the motivation behind everything one falls in love with God and willfully submits to His authority. 

    God does not demand Love, but he does expect one to show reverence to his position as the Creator.  Granted I don't believe a person who hates God will make it into heaven, because if you hate someone that the last thing your going to give them is reverence or any level of respect.

    We live in a period of time call the "end of days" God has revealed all that man needs to know in order to receive heaven in the end.  It recorded in the bible. There will be no physical relationship like Abraham, Jacob, Issac, and Moses had with God.  Unfortunately, we have to accept what was a record and preserved for us in the Bible or reject Him.  I believe it to be that simple.

    But God does not want autonomous robots, He gave man free will and He wants mankind to freely love Him.  I hope I'm making some sort of sense in my responses to you.  
  • pocopoco 87 Pts
    I'm not sure if your question is regarding everyone, or only those that are considered "age of reason."  There are verses re those that are not considered of 'age' yet, & it eems as tho God will take care of them eternally w/o their belief in Jesus.

    As far as believing in Jesus as the only way ...... I'll agree with it's the only "guaranteed" way for salvation.  The others I'll leave up to God to make His mind up, bc we are not to judge others, & since God deals only in perfecg justice, I'm ure He'll take care of things just fine.
    with_all_humility
  • @with_all_humility

    See here is the thing. I have fully defined heaven. I have fully defined what my spiritual reasons for being alive are. I have fully defined how it could be possible for there to be a spiritual reality. And, i have fully defined how i could be alive in this spiritual reality. Therefore, i know what will happen in "heaven" ... i know what it could be and i know what it can't be. I can see it clearly. It is a curse that i can see it so clearly but i can. I don't know why, never have. It always sound dense of me or arrogant when i say it... or i must be insane, which are all far from the truth, but still... i don't like saying it.

    But everything you say we can't know, i know. I have strong empathy for what it would feel like to be a god. I have strong awareness / and have experienced what it would feel like to be immortal. All of this has steered me to a specific spiritual belief that i can say i suspect highly. If there is a god... he did a really bad job in creating me how i am for he should know what i know will not lead me to what any religion speaks of as god. I still do think there is a first source, which started all of us... but, it isn't like anything you would think. Ask me my spiritual beliefs if you are curious... i can answer everything, seriously. There is nothing i've been stumped on that i haven't been able to answer with my platform. Ultimate point is, when you say i have to just wait and see... i don't. I've already defined it. There are only a handful of experiences i can have that i would "label" as heaven. 

    This is why i use the vampire analogy. A vampire is one character "out of a few" that i must be if i become immortal. Ultimately however, There is no world, in no circumstance where i am still "me" that immortality wouldn't eventually turn to hell. Even a vampire can die. Every immortal we have thought of can die. My belief hinges on my dying over and over again so i can visit all my heavens. To be stuck in one reality as one character forever is hell, to me. It scares the crap out of me. I am happy in this life bc i know i could die... i would be in fear if i couldn't. The only way i can conceive of i would be okay with immortality is if i am not me. 

    So do you see it? You belief is telling me to believe it to go to hell to avoid hell. Your belief is telling me i will die and not be me anymore bc "god" will make it okay. It absolutely makes no sense. It only makes sense to you bc you are currently okay with the afterlife you will get... if you weren't you wouldn't believe it either. Why believe something where the reward is hell? This is a big contradiction that no monotheistic religion can answer me. That is why i "know" with all my heart the Bible, Koran, etc. is wrong. 
  • poco said:
    I'm not sure if your question is regarding everyone, or only those that are considered "age of reason."  There are verses re those that are not considered of 'age' yet, & it eems as tho God will take care of them eternally w/o their belief in Jesus.

    As far as believing in Jesus as the only way ...... I'll agree with it's the only "guaranteed" way for salvation.  The others I'll leave up to God to make His mind up, bc we are not to judge others, & since God deals only in perfecg justice, I'm ure He'll take care of things just fine.
    Why do i get notifications when you aren't referencing me? It's quite annoying. In any case, i disagree with everything you said, sorry. If god/jesus are so dense that they want me to believe in them to be "Saved" i'd rather not be associated with such people. 
  • poco said:
    I'm not sure if your question is regarding everyone, or only those that are considered "age of reason."  There are verses re those that are not considered of 'age' yet, & it eems as tho God will take care of them eternally w/o their belief in Jesus.

    As far as believing in Jesus as the only way ...... I'll agree with it's the only "guaranteed" way for salvation.  The others I'll leave up to God to make His mind up, bc we are not to judge others, & since God deals only in perfecg justice, I'm ure He'll take care of things just fine.
    Why do i get notifications when you aren't referencing me? It's quite annoying. In any case, i disagree with everything you said, sorry. If god/jesus are so dense that they want me to believe in them to be "Saved" i'd rather not be associated with such people. 
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