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Is the Judeo-Christian God Real?
in Religion

By dab2048dab2048 22 Pts
I do not believe God exists- I'm an atheist. However, I cannot prove NEG. God's existence is an unfalsifiable hypothesis, so by definition all that NEG can do is refute arguments from AFF or point out the lack of evidence. Let's be clear- the default position of anyone newly born is an atheist. They must be first turned into a Christian, for example. Same for any other religion. It's like saying 'I can fly when nobody's looking.' How can you prove this wrong? You can't- it's unfalsifiable, but I must first prove my position to you because the default position on anything is a lack of belief. Anyone making a positive claim (asserting something is, was, or does) requires evidence. The Burden of Proof thus rests upon AFF. Until someone from AFF responds, it is by definition impossible for me to argue further.
PlaffelvohfenZombieguy1987



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  • SandSand 87 Pts
    How do you know the Statue of Liberty was built by man?

    PlaffelvohfenZombieguy1987George_Horse
  • @dab2048

    >> Let's be clear- the default position of anyone newly born is an atheist. 

    Most likely the position of any new born is that they do not have the cognitive abilities to formulate any position on the subject of God existence or non-existence.

    Let's be really really clear, the science is still under review on this subject and you will find different theories across the board. Psychologists have debated whether belief in God or atheism was the natural human state.

    According to Dr Petrovich, an expert in psychology of religion, belief in God is not taught but develops naturally.

    Dr. Olivera Petrovich - currently with the Experimental Psychology Department at Oxford University. Research interests lie in the psychology of religion, focusing especially on the development of spirituality in children. 

    Dr Olivera Petrovich told a University of Western Sydney conference on the psychology of religion that even preschool children constructed theological concepts as part of their understanding of the physical world. She says, "Infants are hard-wired to believe in God, and atheism has to be learned", according to Oxford University psychologist.

    “Atheism is definitely an acquired position,” Dr Olivera Petrovich

    >>Burden of Proof

    What specific kind of "proof" would you be willing to accept if it was presented to you? Obviously something like Euclid's proofs would not provide an answer as it deals with the absolutes of mathematical principles dealing with already established axioms in Euclidean geometry. Is there even such a thing as a GOD theorem? 

    You will find that there is no element of proof in questions of metaphysics, only as you say, arguments. Even if I could in effect make a metaphysical demonstration, it would only prove that there are things beyond your current understanding. 

    Common ground would first need to be established on the basis of certain agreeable principles and axioms that we established as being self evident, such as every effect has a cause, or something always comes from something else, or nothing will always produce nothing. Even then we will not be able to leave the realm of subjectivity. Asking for 'proof' in the case of God is a red herring to begin with, as it tries to put the AFF in an untenable position.

    Is the Judeo-Christian God Real? A relative term, compared to what....Hanuman the monkey god...?


    Sand
  • DeeDee 742 Pts
    edited June 14


    You say ......

    Let's be really really clear, the science is still under review on this subject and you will find different theories across the board. 

    Psychologists have debated whether belief in God or atheism was the natural human state. 

    According to Dr Petrovich, an expert in psychology of religion, belief in God is not taught but develops naturally.

    My reply ......Develops naturally? How does she go about proving this?
    Is a belief in ghosts another belief that is not taught but develops naturally?

    Incidentally I can post up papers that disagree with her views but it’s really as you pointed out just a different theory 

    You say .......Dr Olivera Petrovich - currently with the Experimental Psychology Department at Oxford University. Research interests lie in the psychology of religion, focusing especially on the development of spirituality in children. 
    Dr Olivera Petrovich told a University of Western Sydney conference on the psychology of religion that even preschool children constructed theological concepts as part of their understanding of the physical world.

    My reply ......What exactly are the theological concepts children construct?


    You say........She says, "Infants are hard-wired to believe in God, and atheism has to be learned", according to Oxford University psychologist.

    My reply .......Well she is a believer and works in the field of theology so I wouldn’t expect much else to be honest. Even if one allows infants are “hard wired” to believe in a god the same should be true for children being “hard wired “ to believe in ghosts does that make the claims any stronger and if so why?

    If a belief in god is indeed hard wired in children does she mean a specific god as in what would these children say if asked where our Universe came from?
    Do pre school children actually mention a god when questioned , I’m curious as to how she knows this?

    She says ........“Atheism is definitely an acquired position,” Dr Olivera Petrovich

    My reply ......That’s a sweeping generalization how does she prove it’s the case , how can she counter the idea that we may be hard wired to be atheists?

    Religion to me is pure indoctrination and that begins the moment a child is brought into the world to religious parents as they come into contact from the off to symbols , words and religious imagery which differs from one society to another.

    Regards Atheism in my case I’m from a Roman Catholic background and was a devout believer but thankfully had a very inquiring mind and read a lot which got me honestly evaluating my beliefs and finally shedding them as I relived my position religiously was purely faith based.

    I’m in not  suggesting  believers do not have enquiring minds I’m just giving my rationale for my position 
  • @Dee

    >>My reply ......Develops naturally? How does she go about proving this?

    I guess you will have to read her book. https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Theological-Understanding-Childhood-Developmental-Psychology/dp/1138939471

    or take a more direct approach:
    email: olivera.petrovich@theology.ox.ac.uk or Phone: 01865 271407

    >>Incidentally I can post up papers that disagree with her views but it’s really as you pointed out just a different theory

    That was my point, not to promote anyone's work. Science is full of 'contradictions', explanatory models, such as the various gravitational or atomic theories out there.

    How do you determine which model to believe in?

    Do you accept the premise that all the facts are not in yet, and that believing in any particular model requires a certain leap of faith?

    >>Regards Atheism in my case I’m from a Roman Catholic background and was a devout believer but thankfully had a very inquiring mind and read a lot which got me honestly evaluating my beliefs and finally shedding them as I relived my position religiously was purely faith based.

    I'm pretty sure that was also the case which led many in the reformation, you just took a different direction drew different conclusions.

    >>Well she is a believer and works in the field of theology so I wouldn’t expect much else to be honest

    How is your current position unbiased?

    Sand
  • DeeDee 742 Pts
    @Neopesdom


    You say ......I guess you will have to read her book. https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Theological-Understanding-Childhood-Developmental-Psychology/dp/1138939471


    or take a more direct approach:

    email: olivera.petrovich@theology.ox.ac.uk or Phone: 01865 271407


    My reply ....I guess I will if I wish to achieve clarity on her position 


    You say .........That was my point, not to promote anyone's work. Science is full of 'contradictions', explanatory models, such as the various gravitational or atomic theories out there. 

    My reply .....There may indeed be contradictions but science if in error will correct such errors when new evidence is presented and evaluated , Science is also full of facts and I cannot think of a better way than arriving at truths than the methods used 


    You say ......How do you determine which model to believe in? 

    My reply .....Regarding what particular model?


    You say ......Do you accept the premise that all the facts are not in yet, and that believing in any particular model requires a certain leap of faith?

    My reply ......All facts are indeed not in yet regarding the big questions which is why to me it’s more intellectually  honest to say “I don’t know”.

    The usage of the term faith is interchanged to mean different things when used by a believer as it’s based on spiritual conviction, when people like me use it (which I don’t) it’s based on confidence or trust 


    You say .......I'm pretty sure that was also the case which led many in the reformation, you just took a different direction drew different conclusions.

    My reply ......Yes 

    You say ......How is your current position unbiased?

    My reply

     ......bias

    /ˈbʌɪəs/

    noun

    1. 1. 
      inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair."there was evidence of bias againstforeign applicants"

    4

    3 prejudice, partiality, partisanship, favouritism, unfairness, one-sidedness; More


    .Please explain to me how I’m being unfair?



  • @Dee ;

    >>All facts are indeed not in yet regarding the big questions which is why to me it’s more intellectually  honest to say “I don’t know”

    Congratulations on converting from atheism to agnosticism! Just a little further to go... :) 


    The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. (Psalm 14:1)

  • Is the Judeo-Christian god real? 

    Well, to judeo-christian, he is... Real in their psyche that is... I personally find the idea of a god (as in deism) very improbable and unnecessary, and even more so with a theistic god, by a few order of magnitude...

    One thing is certain, even though science cannot prove or disprove the existence of any "god", it demonstrate though that it (god) is unnecessary to explain this universe... 
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • DeeDee 742 Pts
    @Neopesdom


    You say ......Congratulations on converting from atheism to agnosticism! Just a little further to go...  


    My reply ......Congratulations on redefining my Atheism ! ......You seem to have a problem with word definitions , let me help.....


    Atheism 

    /ˈeɪθɪɪz(ə)m/

    noun

    1. disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods 



    Thanks for the Bible verse regarding fools yet you’re the one believes in a talking Donkey not I .......



    The donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your own donkey, which you have  always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?”

  • @Dee

    >>Congratulations on redefining my Atheism ! 
    >>it’s more intellectually  honest to say “I don’t know”
    Your welcome. It is more honest to say "I don't know". How could anyone who honestly admits they do not know, say they do not believe in the existence God, it would be complete foolishness. If a person says God does not exist, they are ultimately saying that know everything there is to know, again a foolish statement. Atheism is not a rational position, it presents a certain intellectual dishonesty. 

    agnostic

    /aɡˈnästik/

    noun

    1. a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

    >>Science is also full of facts and I cannot think of a better way than arriving at truths than the methods used 
    Science is the study of the natural world, gives you insight into how God made things.

    >>Well she is a believer and works in the field of theology so I wouldn’t expect much else to be honest.
    If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties.” - Francis Bacon

    Francis Bacon was also a believer, his works are credited with developing the scientific method and remained influential through the scientific revolution. By your own logic should we expect the scientific method to be honest, the very principles and methods you hold so dear?

    Bacon was a devout Anglican. He believed that philosophy and the natural world must be studied inductively, but argued that we can only study arguments for the existence of God. Information on his attributes (such as nature, action, and purposes) can only come from special revelation. - wiki

    >>Thanks for the Bible verse regarding fools yet you’re the one believes in a talking Donkey not I .......
    Appeal to Ridicule - Logically Fallacious

     Appeal to ridicule is a fallacy that attempts to make a claim look ridiculous by mocking it or exaggerating it in a negative way. Appeal to ridicule often uses sarcasm to make an argument look ridiculous.

    Your position must be inherently weak if all you can do is muster logically fallacious arrows, it didn't even dent my armor.
  • DeeDee 742 Pts
    edited June 15
    @Neopesdom

    You say ........How  could anyone who honestly admits they do not know, say they do not believe in the existence God


    My reply ....Again you totally misrepresent what I say as in my position regarding Atheism , the burden of proof lies squarely with you as you’re the one making the affirmative claim as in there is a god , this is pretty basic stuff really.


    You say ,,,it would be complete foolishness


    My reply ......It would is why I’m not asserting it. How could anyone say they do know and not be able to prove their claim?


    You say .....If person says God does not exist, they are ultimately saying that know everything there is to know, again a foolish statement. 


    My reply ......I lack a belief in the existence of a god 


    atheism.......

    /ˈeɪθɪɪz(ə)m/

    noun

    1. disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.



    You say .......Atheism is not a rational position, it presents a certain intellectual dishonesty. 

    Science is the study of the natural world, gives you insight into how God made things.


    My reply .....Never mentioned that part in any of my science books , which god in particular do these American  “science” books mention?


    You say......


    “If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties.” - Francis Bacon


    Francis Bacon was also a believer, his works are credited with developing the scientific method and remained influential through the scientific revolution. By your own logic should we expect the scientific method to be honest, the very principles and methods you hold so dear?


    My reply ......Your appeal to authority is amusing but void of implication 


    You say ......Bacon was a devout Anglican. He believed that philosophy and the natural world must be studied inductively, but argued that we can only study arguments for the existence of God. Information on his attributes (such as nature, action, and purposes) can only come from special revelation. - wiki


    My reply .......Another appeal to authority wow! I couldn’t care less about Bacon or his opinion


    You say .......


    Appeal to Ridicule - Logically Fallacious


    My reply .........Yet that’s exactly what you do as in when you call an atheists position foolish , logic is not your strong point is it?

     You say ....

    Appeal to ridicule is a fallacy that attempts to make a claim look ridiculous by mocking it or exaggerating it in a negative way. Appeal to ridicule often uses sarcasm to make an argument look ridiculous.


    My reply .....Your argument is childish and ridiculous as in you call atheists foolish and use a book with talking animals to do so.


    So tell me then using your “logic” if someone like David Icke says our leaders are actually repitillian overlords you do not think it mock worthy, yet this is what you do with the Atheists position.


    You say ......Your position must be inherently weak if all you can do is muster logically fallacious arrows, it didn't even dent my armor.


    My reply ......My position is sound I merely asked for clarity regarding a piece from your original post and not surprisingly you decided to get defensive and resort to an attack on me by avoiding my questions and calling me unfair and attempting to turn the topic back on me for your refusal to merely answer questions.


    Regarding “logically fallacious arrows” your whole position is one of dishonesty where you appeal to authorities , misrepresent my position and lie , you avoid every uncomfortable question asked of you such are the shaky foundations on which your belief rests 


    I say not surprisingly in your case as I’m guessing you’re  American from the simple fact most American Christians seem to be ultra aggressive , rude and defensive all except two I’ve engaged with so far on here who have been polite and informative.


  • @Dee
    >>Atheism in my case 
    >>I lack a belief in the existence of a god
    Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists. Atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.  -wiki

    >>“I don’t know”
    When you added the above statement, you left the realm of pure Atheism into a form of Agnosticism, subcategorized  as:

    Agnostic atheism, which is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticismAgnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact.

    First, an atheist is one who does not believe in God. Additionally, the atheist may or may not actually deny the existence of God. Second, agnosticism has two main streams. The “soft” agnostic does not know whether or not there is a God. The “hard” agnostic says one cannot know about the existence of God. Some people term this hard agnosticism as “agnostic atheism.” These definitions of agnosticism leave open the possibility of an agnostic also being an atheist, a theist, or one who endorses neither position. -https://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/agnostic-atheist-faq.htm
  • DeeDee 742 Pts
    @Neopesdom

    Absolute certainty is not something I assert regards my Atheism if others do your battle is with them not me , your position is one of attempted point scoring as you’re not interested in my views as your misrepresentation clearly demonstrates.


    Dictionaries are not authorities on what words mean they are descriptive can you show me a dictionary that states Atheism is a position of absolute certainty as in no gods exist?


    Atheism is to me a rejection of the premise that a God or Gods exist". This does not mean that I accept the premise that no God or Gods exist , I may be described as an agnostic /atheist as in I do not believe that the truth of what are “God claims" can be known.


    You assert absolute certainty in your position and seem to want the atheist to admit likewise regarding his , yet if one did so you call him foolish ,using your exact rationale you’re foolish 


    Maybe your next gambit is to assert Atheism is a “religion “

  • SandSand 87 Pts

    Life always comes from preexisting life.

  • @Dee
    >>I lack a belief in the existence of a god 
    You have something in common then with my garden gnome, it too lacks a belief in the existence of a god.

    >>.. the burden of proof lies squarely with you as you’re the one making the affirmative claim as in there is a god , this is pretty basic stuff really.
    If your "atheism" is not a claim of any kind, then it is simply meaningless and possess no causative power and has no consequences.  If you lack a belief, you really having nothing to debate, you can take up a place alongside my garden gnome.

    >>Atheism is to me a rejection of the premise that a God or Gods exist
    So you are making an affirmative claim that this premise should be rejected? Can you provide proof and evidence for why this is a rational and reasoned rejection? What in science have you found to support your claim?

    Atheism is a religion of sorts, or can be. Many atheists are quite religious, holding their views about God with the conviction of zealots and evangelizing with verve … It stands at the center of their lives, defining who they are, how they think, and with whom they associate. The question of God is never far from their minds. - Stephen Prothero
    Sand
  • DeeDee 742 Pts
    @Neopesdom



    You say ......You have something in common then with my garden gnome, it too lacks a belief in the existence of a god.


    My reply .....Well I guess if you believe in Noah’s Ark , talking serpents and water walking humans you would equally believe garden gnomes have opinions 


    You say ......If your "atheism" is not a claim of any kind, then it is simply meaningless and possess no causative power and has no consequences


    My reply .....It’s a rejection of a claim that a god or gods exist , it works for me and it’s meaning is obvious to rational beings which rules you and your garden gnome out 


    You say .......If you lack a belief, you really having nothing to debate, you can take up a place alongside my garden gnome.


    My reply .....You really need to read that debate title again get the gnome to assist you maybe?


    You say .....So you are making an affirmative claim that this premise should be rejected? 


    My reply ......Where did I say that? You failure to comprehend basic statements is truly tragic failing that you resort to your usual lying as in misrepresentation of what I actually said but hey you’re a “Christian “ ......


    Atheism is to me a rejection of the premise that a God or Gods exist". This does not mean that I accept  the premise that no or Gods exist , I may be described as an agnostic /atheist as in I do not believe that the truth of what are “God claims" can be known.


    Got it yet regarding the premise?



    You say .....Can you provide proof and evidence for why this is a rational and reasoned rejection? What in science have you found to support your claim?


    My reply ....Read above ask your garden gnome to assist I think you need it’s help 




    You say ......Atheism is a religion of sorts, or can be. Many atheists are quite religious, holding their views about God with the conviction of zealots and evangelizing with verve … It stands at the center of their lives, defining who they are, how they think, and with whom they associate. The question of God is never far from their minds. - S



    My reply .....


    You make yet another appeal to authority , can you not defend your own position using your own reasoning ...wait  don’t answer that .....


    The weirdest thing about people like you is  calling atheism a religion is that you say it as if it's an insult. I know you mean it that way, but it sounds a lot like, "You atheists are as silly as we are. “ That aside, believers need to be aware that declaring atheism to be a religion does not help the case for the existence of a god. Whatever atheists may or may not be has no bearing on whether or not gods exist. Therefore, labeling atheism a religion is just another silly argument much favored by mostly the most stupid  American Bible thumpers .



     

  • @Dee

    Atheism is to me a rejection of the premise that a God or Gods exist". This does not mean that I accept  the premise that no or Gods exist , I may be described as an agnostic /atheist as in I do not believe that the truth of what are “God claims" can be known.
    If you have made a rejection, I presume that required some sort of reasoning on your part, are you unable or unwilling to logically articulate those reasons for your rejection? Are you hiding behind the erroneous position that there exists some burden on me to provide proof of something that is not falsifiable? How long are you going to beat that dead horse?

    >>It’s a rejection of a claim that a god or gods exist , it works for me and it’s meaning is obvious to rational beings which rules you and your garden gnome out 
    Any fool can tear something down, but it takes wisdom, effort and hard work to build something up. Do you have anything substantial for your rejection, provide evidence, reasons and arguments. After all you claimed you; "had a very inquiring mind and read a lot which got me honestly evaluating my beliefs and finally shedding them as I relived my position religiously was purely faith based." Again, what are your non-faith beliefs that made you move from a theist to an atheist? How is your new position not purely faith based, what is your evidence?

     “That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence”. -Christopher Hitchens

  • DeeDee 742 Pts
    @Neopesdom

    You say .......If you have made a rejection, I presume that required some sort of reasoning on your part, are you unable or unwilling to logically articulate those reasons for your rejection? 


    My reply .....I’m rejecting the affirmative claim made by people like you who assert their is a god and say so with certainty, i on the other hand have not seen one convincing proof of a god or gods 


    You say .......Are you hiding behind the erroneous position that there exists some burden on me to provide proof of something that is not falsifiable? How long are you going to beat that dead horse?


    My reply .......Where have I asked you to prove what you cannot?


    You say .......Any fool can tear something down, but it takes wisdom, effort and hard work to build something up. 


    My reply ......Really? Tear down the Theory of Evolution so?  Again Hitler built Nazism up through effort and hard work , is that the wisdom you speak off


    You say ......Do you have anything substantial for your rejection, provide evidence, reasons and arguments. After all you claimed you; "had a very inquiring mind and read a lot which got me honestly evaluating my beliefs and finally shedding them as I relived my position religiously was purely faith based." 


    My reply .....Rejection of your claim you mean? When you put your best one forward I will evaluate it and let you know 


    You say ......Again, what are your non-faith beliefs that made you move from a theist to an atheist? 


    My reply ......Non faith beliefs? I read the Bible for a start that makes most rational beings Atheists then again very few Christians have ever read it 


    You say .......How is your new position not purely faith based, what is your evidence?


    My reply ......Looks like you need to look up that definition of “faith “ I supplied 


    You say .......”That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence”. -Christopher Hitchens”


    My reply .....I’ve asserted nothing , I’ve merely rejected a claim.

    The burden of proof falls onto those making positive claims to back up their claims otherwise the negative claims are automatically right.


    You lost .......again 

  • @Dee

    You say .....I’m rejecting the affirmative claim made by people like you who assert their is a god and say so with certainty, i on the other hand have not seen one convincing proof of a god or gods 
    Unfortunately your reading comprehension skills leave a lot to be desired. Let me quote my claim for you; " Asking for 'proof' in the case of God is a red herring to begin with, as it tries to put the AFF in an untenable position." In my original post I made no affirmative claim that there is a god, that wasn't even the subject of my comments. Your rejecting something that's only in your head, posting garbage simply to score points. The only thing close to a claim I made was a side comment that science is the discovery on how God made things, and even that was half way through your rant, not the main point of the debate. Other claims I made were "Atheism is not a rational position...." and if I didn't explicitly claim it before the burden of proof claim is simply incorrect. 

    You say .......Where have I asked you to prove what you cannot?
    Let me shine some light on your darkness, (Dee......Develops naturally? How does she go about proving this?) You were asking me about someone else's work, only she can tell you how she went about it. Kind of dumb to start a debate with someone who isn't here lol

    You say ......Really? Tear down the Theory of Evolution so?  Again Hitler built Nazism up through effort and hard work , is that the wisdom you speak off
    It's more like someone with large hammer pounding on a wall, fast and easy to tear down, harder to build one up. Get the wisdom now?

    You say .....Rejection of your claim you mean? When you put your best one forward I will evaluate it and let you know 
    Sounds more like you are trying to avoid presenting your arguments for the position you hold. Typical position to take when you don't have any.

    You say ......Non faith beliefs? I read the Bible for a start that makes most rational beings Atheists then again very few Christians have ever read it 
    Atheists in fact have the most irrational position. Which in case you missed it again, is one of the claims I'm making in this debate.

    You say ......Looks like you need to look up that definition of “faith “ I supplied "Dictionaries are not authorities on what words mean"
    Look it up in the dictionaries that you place no authority on? lol You have to make up definitions of words to win a debate lol funny and sad at the same time, I can't handle the paradox.. Where is that talking donkey, at least it was making se@Dee

    You say.....I’ve asserted nothing , I’ve merely rejected a claim.
    What claim were you rejecting, that atheism isn't rational or the burden of proof crap.

    You say...The burden of proof falls onto those making positive claims to back up their claims otherwise the negative claims are automatically right.
    The original claims by dab2048 was " I'm an atheist,I do not believe God exists,  I cannot prove NEG", "all that NEG can do is refute arguments from AFF or point out the lack of evidence"

    I am arguing these points, not making claims for god's existence. I'm guessing the only advantage you can get in a debate is to fabricate the claims of your opponent and then to rebut arguments they never made and then to declare you are automatically right. wow is right.

    A negative claim is a colloquialism for an affirmative claim that asserts the non-existence or exclusion of something. - Hales, Steven D. "Thinking tools: You can prove a negative"

    You say...Again you totally misrepresent what I say as in my position regarding Atheism 

    I was clearing up your confusion,  you didn't even know you were an agnostic, you claim I have a problem with word definitions LOL definitions you just make up in your head because dictionaries don't define words for you, lmao.

    You say...Your appeal to authority is amusing but void of implication 

    Again your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired. I wasn't appealing to authority lol I was pointing out your hypocrisy, try reading things again, really slowly this time, you might get it.

    You are most welcome at my garden party, you and my garden gnome have a lot in common. He especially likes the fact that not only do you bring whine with you, but cheese as well.

  • DeeDee 742 Pts

    You say........Unfortunately your reading comprehension skills leave a lot to be desired. Let me quote my claim for you; " Asking for 'proof' in the case of God is a red herring to begin with, as it tries to put the AFF in an untenable position." In my original post I made no affirmative claim that there is a god, that wasn't even the subject of my comments. 


    My reply .....My comprehension skills are fine , I never asked you for proof of what you believe as you admit you it’s based on nothing but spiritual conviction.


    Now let’s expose you for the liar you are you said .....” I made no affirmative claim that there is a god, “ yet here you are holding forth on your god you claim you’ve made no affirmative claim regarding on another debate  ....... Jesus is Jehovah!


    >>That is why the Angels are gods in title only.

    >>They are called gods because they are spirits like God and from heaven like God.

    >>Jesus referenced gods and said the scriptures cannot be nullified.

    >>John 10:34, 35 - "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;"





    You say ........Your rejecting something that's only in your head, posting garbage simply to score points. The only thing close to a claim I made was a side comment that science is the discovery on how God made things, and even that was half way through your rant, not the main point of the debate. Other claims I made were "Atheism is not a rational position...." and if I didn't explicitly claim it before the burden of proof claim is simply incorrect. 


    My reply ......What are you on about you idiot? You are the one who claimed Atheism was irrational from the start all because I merely asked you to clarify a section regarding your original post , but like the typical big American tough guy you got all butt hurt because no one is meant to question American Christians 



    You say .......Let me shine some light on your darkness, (Dee......Develops naturally? How does she go about proving this?) You were asking me about someone else's work, only she can tell you how she went about it. Kind of dumb to start a debate with someone who isn't here lol


    My reply .....Kind of dumb of you to quote someone’s work you don’t even understand but you do appeal to authority a lot 


    You say ......It's more like someone with large hammer pounding on a wall, fast and easy to tear down, harder to build one up. Get the wisdom now?


    My reply .....I’m still not getting it but hey you’re the one who talks about Angels not I ......>>That is why the Angels are gods in title only........


    That’s American Christian “wisdom “ Bwaaaaaaahahahahahaha 



    You say .......

    Sounds more like you are trying to avoid presenting your arguments for the position you hold. Typical position to take when you don't have any.


    My reply .....What a dummy you are , I’m still rejecting a claim and the position you hold and cannot prove as you believe in a god and Angels ( look above) I’ve still made no claims .......What ever makes you this stupid is most effective 


    You say .......Atheists in fact have the most irrational position. Which in case you missed it again, is one of the claims I'm making in this debate.


    My reply .....Of course because they don’t believe in angels , talking donkeys and virgin births 



    You say .......Look it up in the dictionaries that you place no authority on? lol You have to make up definitions of words to win a debate lol funny and sad at the same time, I can't handle the paradox.. 


    My reply .....The debate finished at my first posting which had you fly off into a childish temper tantrum as you couldn’t explain what you quoted and when exposed whimpered like a child , don’t blame me because your belief is based on spiritual conviction and nothing else 


    You say ......Where is that talking donkey, at least it was making se@Dee 


    My reply ......I think you make a great stand in for the talking donkey , maybe it’s having a chat with that talking serpent in the garden of Eden .......you guys crack me up 



    You say .......What claim were you rejecting, that atheism isn't rational or the burden of proof crap.


    My reply ......We can start with your one regarding Angels bwaaaaaaahahahahahaha......


    Burden of proof is with you , Atheism is indeed the epitome of rationality which is an alien concept to you





    You say .....I am arguing these points, not making claims for god's existence. I'm guessing the only advantage you can get in a debate is to fabricate the claims of your opponent and then to rebut arguments they never made and then to declare you are automatically right. wow is right.


    My reply .......I’m fabricating nothing you’ve engaged from the off in a rabid attack on me regarding Atheism by calling me irrational and a fool all this because I respectfully asked you to clarify a point you made , I did not question or attack your beliefs at the start but you had to act the big guy , you get back exactly what you give out.


    You claim I’m “fabricating “ regarding your belief yet you quote the Bible and admit on other posts your belief , you’re a liar , a clown and a hypocrite but no doubt the usual typical aggressive American “Christian “ who dons the cloak of the “real Christian “ on a Sunday like the weasel you are 


    You say .....A negative claim is a colloquialism for an affirmative claim that asserts the non-existence or exclusion of something. - Hales, Steven D. "Thinking tools:You can prove a negative"


    My reply ......Like the dummy you are you persist in lying .....Negative claimsare statements that assert the non-existence or exclusion of something. ......


    Where did I assert for definite there are no gods you liar?




    You say .......I was clearing up your confusion,  you didn't even know you were an agnostic, you claim I have a problem with word definitions LOL definitions you just make up in your head because dictionaries don't define words for you, lmao.


    My reply .....Yet the only one confused is you the Bible thumper , my definition of Atheism suits just fine , here is what I said as opposed to your lying reinterpretation.....Dictionaries are not authorities on what words mean they are descriptive can you show me a dictionary that states Atheism is a position of absolute certainty as in no gods exist?




    You say .......Again your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired. I wasn't appealing to authority lol I was pointing out your hypocrisy, try reading things again, really slowly this time, you might get it.


    My reply ......My comprehension and logic are sound which is why you deny what you are , lie and regarding hypocrisy well your whole post is testament to the fact if indeed you are a Christian maybe you can clarify the reasoning for your hate filled rant?


    You say .......You are most welcome at my garden party, you and my garden gnome have a lot in common. 


    My reply .......Keep your wife out of this and hey you married her Bwaaaaaaahahahahahaha 


    You say.........He especially likes the fact that not only do you bring whine with you, but cheese as well.


    My reply .....Oh it’s a he , and he has opinions , well you do believe in talking donkeys and serpents so I suppose that’s another faith based position you hold as in talking garden gnomes .........


    Neosperm a pretend Christian just about  brainier than Kurt Cobain’s garage wall @Neopesdom
    JohnBell
  • JohnBellJohnBell 12 Pts
    edited June 23
    Well I would ask how does morality that is not transcendent function?
    Richard Dawkins is quite clear that he believes that evil does not really exist.
    So.... If you agree with Richard Dawkins, the Holocaust is not evil, neither was the treatment of the aborigines of australia.

    This is a pertinent discussion on the existence of God, because a transcendent morality doesn't just appear out of nowhere. It has to be made.
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