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both?
in Science

By maxxmaxx 251 Pts
what do you think of the idea that the universe itself is both a particle and a wave?



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  • maxxmaxx 251 Pts
    size is relative. the universe is a complete system, therefore it can be considered as a particle.  recent developments in quantum mechanics have show that even molecules are both a particle and a wave.  look that up  as well it has been strongly suggested that e verything is a wave and a particle. I do not see where size matters. @John_C_87
    PlaffelvohfenZeusAres42
  • "Size is relative. " In fantasy's of theory.
    Size is not relative to size. Size is proportional or then sizing becomes approximations.


    Screwing something up in such a complex way it's not understand does not make the mistake go away the mistake just waits to be corrected.

    The universe cannot be a wave how it is described to be in motion.
  • maxxmaxx 251 Pts
    it is not my idea. the theory applies to all matter. perhaps you should look it up before dismissing it. @John_C_87
  • maxxmaxx 251 Pts
    As well, size is relative due to ones size to something else. An atom would consider our body huge yet we do not. We consider the universe huge but a galaxy would consider it less so. The idea is that all matter is both a wave and a particle. recent experiments have been made using atoms and molecules with the double slit experiment and it has been concluded that they exhibited the same dual properties as electrons 

  • maxx said:
    it is not my idea. the theory applies to all matter. perhaps you should look it up before dismissing it. @John_C_87


    When basically wrong would it matter who's theory it is? 

  • maxxmaxx 251 Pts
    oh yeah, you are one of those dogmatic individuals who do not follow new ideas and refute them readily with out justification; so sorry, I for got.

  • @maxx
    the universe is a complete system, therefore it can be considered as a particle.
    Nonsensical affirmation. A "complete system" is antithetical to what a "particle" is: A basic unit of matter or energy (such as a molecule, atom, proton, electron, or photon)... 
    Dee
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • maxxmaxx 251 Pts
    edited January 10
    a particle is and can be a unit of anything.  including any system, such as a human or a rock or a enclosed galaxy.  how old are you anyway? you seem to think that a particle is nothing more than an atom, or a molecule or as such which is wrong.  a rock is a particle of a bigger rock';the earth is a particle of the solar system and a solar system is a particle of a galaxy and so on.  matter is matter. the entire cosmos including you and I are made up of electrons and other small particles that exhibit both wave and particle duality. if an electron can be in many places at once and be  a particle and a wave, then I want you to tell me why everything that a electron makes up such as you and I, can not exhibit the same qualities.
    @Plaffelvohfen
    PlaffelvohfenDeeZeusAres42
  • DeeDee 2364 Pts
    edited January 10
    @maxx

    You really should stop reading Deepak Chopra and Edgar Cayce books you’re getting nuttier by the day 
    Plaffelvohfen
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 2410 Pts
    edited January 10
    @Dee ;http://wisdomofchopra.com/

    Someone shared this with me, I think you might enjoy it.
    Dee
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @maxx I think everyone is approaching this all wrong.

    It is true, from a quantum mechanical perspective that many of the things we call "particles" also have a wave like nature.

    This is most obviously apparent in the now infamous double slit experiment, which proves that electrons and photons behave in both ways, depending on if the electron is observed prior to reaching the detector.

    Now as for the universe itself?

    I think you just need to answer 1 question (although it is really 2): What would it mean for the universe to be a wave (or a particle)?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • maxxmaxx 251 Pts
    if so, it would simply mean that all matter is both a wave and a particle.  as for any ramifications; I do not know except if all matter exhibits such behaviorism then we are looking at reality all wrong.@Happy_Killbot
  • maxxmaxx 251 Pts
    yeah yeah yeah. go troll some more religious sites if you are unable to correlate a decent reply@Dee
  • DeeDee 2364 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot ;

    ****Someone shared this with me, I think you might enjoy it 

    Ha , Ha , I have this on my home page along with a philosophy B S generator, a math BS generator , amongst others I used the philosophy B S generator the other day on site and it’s never challenged as it sounds so utterly pretentious yet academic .......Thanks for sharing I picked the first Chopra one that came up ...... "Good health is inextricably connected to visible neural networks" ......


    @Maxx may fly into a rage now as he has a man crush on Deepak .......

  • @maxx But that is just for individual particles, which are really just bits of energy, which are just bits of information.

    What would it mean for THE UNIVERSE to be a particle and a wave, not things within it?
    Dee
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • maxx said:
    oh yeah, you are one of those dogmatic individuals who do not follow new ideas and refute them readily with out justification; so sorry, I for got.

    I can stay at work to get this kind of abuse.
  • DeeDee 2364 Pts
    @maxx

    ***** yeah yeah yeah. go troll some more religious sites if you are unable to correlate a decent reply@Dee

    There you go again getting all upset just because yet again you’re spouting nonsense , BTW I’m not religious and don’t troll on those sites as no doubt they’re populated by idiots just like you 
  • We are people not cow's....
    The direction you imply to take is both...
    The direction a person make take is neither...
     There is a basic right to establish a new idea with a new title, it adds clarity to an overall understanding.
  • maxxmaxx 251 Pts
    what would it mean?  that is like asking what would it mean for an electron to be a wave and a particle.  what would it mean in regard to what?@Happy_Killbot
  • @maxx Do you understand what it means for something to be a wave and a particle?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbrxK1XMmVA

    Just watch this video, he explains it better than I can and it is very relevant to this topic.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • maxxmaxx 251 Pts
    yes I understand; @Happy_Killbot
  • @maxx No offense, but I don't believe you.

    This is quantum mechanics we are talking about, it's the subject that keeps the smartest people in the world up at night, mulling over the meaning and implications.

    It's something I don't understand in the slightest, only enough to maybe put certain concepts into layman's terms, but not enough to predict or explain.

    Quantum mechanics befuddled Einstein, he is on the record as not accepting certain core ideas from the subject.

    Niels Bohr remarked: "If anybody says he can think about quantum problems without getting giddy, that only shows he has not understood the first thing about them."

    Personally, I don't think the human brain is capable of truly understanding this, because we are so used to interacting with the material world that it is hard-wired into our neural structure, and there isn't any practical reason we would need to understand it anyways.

    It's easier, to just accept it mathematically and semantically than to actually think about it, so it only makes practical sense to say "the universe contains particles that act like waves, and waves that act like particles"
    ZeusAres42
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • maxxmaxx 251 Pts
    edited January 11
    of course, I am not making this up; it is not my idea.  I am not saying I understand quantum mechanics; yes, we have many physicists of the 1920s who opened the door to new revelations yet there have been many new developments since. as well considering that everything and I mean everthing, all matter is made up of elementary particles that exhibit both wave and particle like abilities then there is no reason why what they make up can not exhibit the same qualities @Happy_Killbot
  • @maxx No offense, but I don't believe you.

    This is quantum mechanics we are talking about, it's the subject that keeps the smartest people in the world up at night, mulling over the meaning and implications.

    It's something I don't understand in the slightest, only enough to maybe put certain concepts into layman's terms, but not enough to predict or explain.

    Quantum mechanics befuddled Einstein, he is on the record as not accepting certain core ideas from the subject.

    Niels Bohr remarked: "If anybody says he can think about quantum problems without getting giddy, that only shows he has not understood the first thing about them."

    Personally, I don't think the human brain is capable of truly understanding this, because we are so used to interacting with the material world that it is hard-wired into our neural structure, and there isn't any practical reason we would need to understand it anyways.

    It's easier, to just accept it mathematically and semantically than to actually think about it, so it only makes practical sense to say "the universe contains particles that act like waves, and waves that act like particles"

    I actually remember reading somewhere that there are several ways of understanding and/or interpreting quantum mechanics. Oh, here's an article on many interpretations actually:











  • @maxx You watched that video I linked right?

    What causes waves to start acting like particles is decoherence, or when they interact with another particle that takes information away from them.

    Think about it like this: If you were in a dark room and somewhere there was a ball moving throughout the room, in order to find out where the ball was you would need to hit it with something. Once this happens however, now you have no idea what they speed of the ball is, because by hitting it you changed it's speed.

    This is due to something called the Heisenberg uncertainty principal, that basically ( i'm greatly oversimplifying here) that you can not know the speed and position of an elementary particle at the same time, and in fact it doesn't mean anything to do so.

    So basically, the thing that keeps the universe from acting like a wave is the fact that it is filled with particles that are constantly interacting, but when particles are not interacting with other particles, they behave like waves.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Just as a check for understanding, consider this, and try to answer the question without looking up the answer:

    Lets say you have a small, perfectly spherical ball, and you shine a laser at it, whose cross-sectional area is smaller than the size of the ball. Would you expect to see any light on the other side of the ball?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • maxxmaxx 251 Pts
    I understand the double slit idea well.  if you understand it, then you would know that most top physicists then and now state than an electron can be many places at once. I as well could send you links showing this and as well that the interference pattern is not because  of an action similar to a water wave because a wave (such as water) is made up of many individual particles.  yes, a full wave  through 2 slits will show a wave pattern in classical physics.  yet individual particles should not exhibit a wave pattern any more than throwing 1 rock at a time into 2 slits.  I can point out that most physicists will agree that the particle goes through both slits at the same time. @Happy_Killbot
  • @maxx I'm not disagreeing with you, can you answer my challenge question though?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • maxxmaxx 251 Pts
    edited January 11
    I would not expect to see a light on the other side of the ball with my physical eyeshttps://www.quantamagazine.org/the-evolutionary-argument-against-reality-20160421/      @Happy_Killbot
  • @maxx Believe it or not this is wrong!

    When acting like a wave, light will form a point  directly on the other side of a round surface due to the way the waves reflect around the surface.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arago_spot

    You can actually simulate this if you use water waves and a round object like a pole.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • maxx said:
    I understand the double slit idea well.  if you understand it, then you would know that most top physicists then and now state than an electron can be many places at once. I as well could send you links showing this and as well that the interference pattern is not because  of an action similar to a water wave because a wave (such as water) is made up of many individual particles.  yes, a full wave  through 2 slits will show a wave pattern in classical physics.  yet individual particles should not exhibit a wave pattern any more than throwing 1 rock at a time into 2 slits.  I can point out that most physicists will agree that the particle goes through both slits at the same time. @Happy_Killbot
    They can travel faster then can be registered but they can absolutely not travel through both slits at the same time. 
  • I state this not by a belief but by the facts of your own question asked between partial, wave, or both. Time is made relative by the use of a post decimal error in math creating relativity leaving  a straight line in what is to be a curved line as a distance to be filled with electron. 

    Physics shares a consistent issue with ability to understand scaled navigation for position prediction. One in general navigation there is Time and space seen as only two Dimensional North, South, East, and West. As space is seen and three Dimensional with six directions. (X +, X-), ( Y+, Y-), and ( Z+, Z-). North = (X+) South = ( X-) then East = Either (Y=) or (Y-) and West = Either (y+) or (Y-) by general relativity AKA Special relativity. 


    Basic Mathematic Proof ( BMP):

    For all Pi there exists Four geometric Chords by scale. (Square law).
  • I stated this fact over and over constantly on this forum Pi is not a ratio and is not a single calculation to be made with a circles diameter  proportion to circumference ratio.


  • @maxx ; The Universe finds its origin and meaning and purpose in the Spiritual World and it is our Creator, Jesus Christ, who was commissioned by God the Father to take elements from the Spiritual World and form them into matter that is interactive with the spiritual beings constrained by a body of flesh constrained by Time.

    Mankind, cognitively constrained by the Fall of Adam and the inherent limitations of Time, will never define origin of our Universe or its relative existence because all that we see finds its origin in a World that is not visible or apprehended by human senses.


    ZeusAres42Happy_KillbotsmoothiePlaffelvohfen
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