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Christians Should Stop Being Toxic to Sinners
in Religion

By ABoehneABoehne 2 Pts
As a former Christian and current Wiccan, who still is fascinated by Bible Study because I think the Bible is an incredible piece of literature.  However, I've reviewed a fair bit of some of the posts and comments on the website, and given that these are your true expressions towards sinners, I have to believe you either are a troll or aren't preaching the true word of God.

After Jesus came to Earth and died for sins, and suffered through Hell to rise from the dead and deliver us from sin, he made Levitical Law no longer physically curse those who committed sin.  Mind you, sin is still bad and you should obey the laws outlined in the Bible, but when God showed his truest love by gifting humanity his only Begotten Son, he showed us that the truest law of God is to always love and forgive your neighbor, regardless of their action or sin, because by being born we became one and the same under original sin.

"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
-Matthew 6:14-15



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Arguments

  • I would agree with much of what you say, but disagree when you suggest that judgmental people, lacking love for their fellow man, are Christians. God says you will know a Christian by their love.

    The Bible speaks much to false Christians who have no love. You do understand that the KKK called themselves Christians, correct?

    These hate filled people thought it was OK to kill people simply for the color of their skin! These were not Christians. You can not take the actions of men who do evil things in the name of God, as having anything to do with Christianity.

    If you became a Wiccan because of the actions of false Christians, then I would rethink your motive. God told us there would be hypocrites like these, who do things in the name of God, but that he never knew them.@ABoehne
    PlaffelvohfenAlofRI
  • The problem, I think, is that the Christian community has not kept up with times, and it utilises the same arguments it did 1,500 years ago to try to convert people. But it is not working any more: the promises of good afterlife and threats of god's wrath worked well back when 99% of the population was dirt poor and uneducated, but nowadays people expect something more from it. How can Christianity benefit me? What do I lose here, in life, by not following it? These are the points Christians should focus on when promoting their ideology, and they tend to fall short of it.

    I watched a nice anti-bullying movie yesterday, "To Save a Life", which gave decent answers to these questions. While overall pretty areligious movie, it did make a strong case for the value of Christianity and Christian communities. Somewhat ironically, Christian community itself rarely makes as good a case for Christianity as that movie.
  • @We_are_accountable

    If the KKK, the Nazi party, the Wesboro Baptists, and random practicing individuals can all be deemed unfit as Christians,

    Then how can we claim there is any merit to the religion of Christianity as foundation of morality?
    PlaffelvohfenWe_are_accountableAlofRI
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • DeeDee 2364 Pts
    @We_are_accountable

    ***** God says you will know a Christian by their love.

    That certainly rules you out , but in fairness  you seem to hate everyone equally 
    PlaffelvohfenAlofRI
  • I did not say they were unfit Christians... I said they were NOT Christians.@Happy_Killbot
  • @We_are_accountable

    The problem still remains regardless of nitpicking semantics.

    If some people can claim a Christian foundation and Christian ideas and biblical scriptures for their particular brand of extremism, those who you denounce as being Christians altogether, then how can anyone claim to be a Christian at all?

    Couldn't they say you are not a Christian because you do not follow their interpretation of the bible?
    PlaffelvohfenWe_are_accountableAlofRI
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • If people have some selfish motive of getting something from God, and if not, refusing to put their faith in him? Then their motives will be obvious to God.

    You act as if people only believe in God to get something. Yes, they get a wonderful life of peace and love, but this was never their motive.
    Christians actually believe in God because they believe he is the one true God that controls the universe. He gives us a road map to follow, and teaches us to love one another, forgive one another, and in doing so enjoying the fruits of those truths.

    Christians actually believe there is a Heaven and Hell, and the reason they try to witness to others to help them end up in Heaven. Christians do not witness to others to judge them for some sin. We have all sinned.

    The answers to what people lose in life, when not following Christ, are all around us! Look at the breakdown in our families since the Left censored Christian expression from public land.

    Without God's moral foundation, it is hard to find a family where the kids are raised by their real mother and father. They lose the many wonderful benefits of a strong loving family. Do you think it is enjoyable taking turns watching the children through whatever divorce settlement they agreed upon?

    Look at all those who died in the Aids epedemic through promiscuous lifestyles, drug use, etc. etc.
    These people lost their lives!

    Look at what our children are losing as they are abandoned by their fathers, and raised by case workers!

    The moral break down in our culture is showing you exactly what people lose when following man's amoral anything goes lifestyles.@MayCaesar
  • No, I am not talking about minor disgreements with doctrine. These things are fine as long as the underlying thrust of Christianity is agreed upon (that Christ is the one true Lord and means to salvation). There are many Denominations in the Protestant Christian faith, and they might focus on one part of the Bible, more so then others.

    I am talking about evil people who support abusing or killing the innocent. These are false Christians because God makes it perfectly clear.

    When the Left tries to twist the Bible to say that Homosexuality is not a sin, then their motive is clear. They want to transform Christianity to fit their lifestyles.

    The Left constantly uses false Christians to paint Christianity in a bad light. This is Leftwing politics 101.
    They do it all the time with Trump. If some White Supremace group votes for Trump, they paint him as a racist or nazi.@Happy_Killbot
  • @We_are_accountable How do you know that though?

    What if they are the real Christians and you are the false Christian?

    What test, if any is even possible, can you do to determine if someone is a real Christian or a false Christian?

    The bible makes it clear that you should not remarry after you are divorced, however Donald Trump has done this. Does this mean he is not a Christian?

    Luke 16:11 "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.”

    Adultery is of course, one of the ten commandments.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • That is a good question and I will give you my thoughts and beliefs.

    First of all, we are all sinners. None of us are perfect. God understood this and gave us all a way to Heaven, even though we did not deserve it, and even though we will never be perfect. Christ died for our sins.

    So you ask is Trump not a Christian because of some sin he has committed? You ask how can we know a false Christian from a true Christian?

    My answer to your question is that no one could possibly know another's heart. Only God truly knows, and only God will judge. We can see a man's heart when he supports killing Black people merely because of the color of their skin. This is plain to see.

    What we can know for sure, is from God's word, whereby he says that we will know a Christian by their love, not by sins they have or have not committed. A person who has committed a sin can still be a Christian and still possess love for others.

    Does Trump love others? Would Trump support killing innocent people out of pure selfish evil? I do not believe Trump is evil. I truly believe he has love for other innocent lives. I do not judge people for some sin they may have committed. I do not judge Homosexuals for sins they may have committed.
    The Apostle Paul in the Bible actually killed Christians before being saved. He was forgiven. There is a love that comes from God. Paul would never take an innocent life after that transformation.

    I will speak out against those who claim to be Christian, and deny that divorce, or Homosexuality, or whatever other sin, is ok. If Trump declared that divorce was ok, and not a sin, I would have a problem with that. A true Christian should always stand up for God's word and never twist it to deny their own sins.

    I speak out against Liberal Pro abortion Churches. I speak out against Churches with Gay Pastors who deny what the Bible says about Homosexuality.

    I have no problem with other religions and their beliefs, but when Liberals take the Christian faith and try to twist it to fit this new age Political correctness, then Christians will speak out!@Happy_Killbot
  • @We_are_accountable

    You talk about god knowing what is in each person's heart, and you claim that he knows that certain things are wrong.

    From this we can determine that what god thinks is right and wrong is how we know if someone is a true Christian or a phony.

    Then the question becomes, how do we know that god doesn't approve of certain things and does of others?

    If someone claims that killing people based on the color of their skin is right because god commanded it, how can we say that this didn't happen, and in fact god did command it?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3409 Pts
    edited February 12
    If people have some selfish motive of getting something from God, and if not, refusing to put their faith in him? Then their motives will be obvious to God.

    You act as if people only believe in God to get something. Yes, they get a wonderful life of peace and love, but this was never their motive.
    Christians actually believe in God because they believe he is the one true God that controls the universe. He gives us a road map to follow, and teaches us to love one another, forgive one another, and in doing so enjoying the fruits of those truths.

    Christians actually believe there is a Heaven and Hell, and the reason they try to witness to others to help them end up in Heaven. Christians do not witness to others to judge them for some sin. We have all sinned.

    The answers to what people lose in life, when not following Christ, are all around us! Look at the breakdown in our families since the Left censored Christian expression from public land.

    Without God's moral foundation, it is hard to find a family where the kids are raised by their real mother and father. They lose the many wonderful benefits of a strong loving family. Do you think it is enjoyable taking turns watching the children through whatever divorce settlement they agreed upon?

    Look at all those who died in the Aids epedemic through promiscuous lifestyles, drug use, etc. etc.
    These people lost their lives!

    Look at what our children are losing as they are abandoned by their fathers, and raised by case workers!

    The moral break down in our culture is showing you exactly what people lose when following man's amoral anything goes lifestyles.@MayCaesar
    If there is nothing to be gained for yourself from Christianity, then why would you ever consider following it? I certainly would not waste my time on something that does not benefit my life in any direct way.

    You made some case for a strong family, but a strong family does not require Christianity to exist. Strong families existed millennia before Jesus of Nazareth was even born.

    I do not observe the alleged "moral breakdown" in the US culture, given how we live in the most peaceful and prosperous times this country has ever known. Regardless, I was not asking about the benefits of Christianity on a societal scale (there may be some valuable ones), but about the benefits of Christianity for a given individual. As I was saying, the Christian community is outstandingly bad at making a case for non-Christian individuals adopting Christianity.
    I probably would be able to make a better case than them, and I am an atheist. I can see some value in having a solid moral code to follow in case you are lost in life, and, for example, Jordan Peterson bases his advocacy for religion exactly on these grounds. But that is not what Christian preachers usually say; they tend to say that you cannot have a solid moral code without Christianity, even if you do have one right now. This supremacist attitude pushes people away.
  • Christians believe the word of God. It says that every word written in the Bible was inspired by God. If we can deny some of those words, saying that some words were written by men and not inspired by God, then the entire Bible has been rendered worthless.
    I believe this is the Left's ultimate goal and why they did not just create their own Political correct cult. They wanted to destroy the Christian faith as written. This is why you hear so much ridicule from the Left towards "Bible beliving Christian" ewwwwwwww. They call them Fundies!

    How can man change one word in the Bible and then call it the word of God? Which version from man should we follow?
    Which Church should we believe when it has twisted the Christian Bible to fit their politics?
    Should we follow the Liberal Church down the road that has a Gay pastor and declares that Jesus sanctions Homosexuality as OK?

    If Liberals wants to create their own man made religion, go for it. Stop calling themselves Christians and admit they refuse to follow the Christian Bible as written by God. If they did this, I would have no problem with them. They have a right to believe what they want.

    True Christians beieve that the Bible is inspired by God and never to be twisted. We have enough sense to understand that killing people, because of the color of their skin, is evil. The New Testament Christian Bible does not tell us to kill slaves. It talks about slaves as we would talk about employees today.

    If someone tells us that killing Black people is OK because God says it in the New testament Christian faith, then I would call them a liar because it is not there. All we have is God's word to base right from worng, and with this word can know when someone is twisting God's word.

    Most anti Christian Bigots will quote verses out of context in the Old Testament Jewish law, to try and paint Christianity in a bad light.@Happy_Killbot
  • @We_are_accountable I presume you are not a Mormon, If I am wrong I apologize in advance.

    The words of the book of Mormon were written much latter and have their own practicing religion. They have been claimed to be the works of god, same as the rest of the bible.

    They claim to be true Christians just the same.

    If their doctrine ans book was invented, then doesn't it stand to reason that other portions of the bible were either added or excluded, possibly for political purposes now long since forgotten?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • DeeDee 2364 Pts
    @We_are_accountable

    ***** I did not say they were unfit Christians... I said they were NOT Christians

    But of course racists like you are 
    AlofRI
  • If they were true Christians they wouldn'tbe like that.  @ABoehne
  • Mormons are an example of a man made cult. Joseph Smith came along in 1830 and declared that God had spoken to him, and that we should add the Book of Mormons to the Christian faith.
    They have taken a new name, so I do not have as much a problem with Mormons as I do false Liberal Christians trying to twist the words in the Bible to embrace today's Political correctness.

    Many Bible scholars have searched out the history of Christianity, addressing your concerns of parts of the Bible being added or excluded.
    They are in agreement that today's Bible is the insired word of God, and not having man made additions.

    When people with open minds read the New testament Christian Bible, they see how each chapter compliments the others, showing a continuity in the message and a common theme by the one author (God).

    If I were to read one Chapter telling me that Mankind is basically evil, and the next one saying the opposite, one could argue that it was written by men. I find no conflict of interest in the words. There were different men inspired by God in writting the Bible, but their messages came together as one. This would never happen if each author had his own agendas and beliefs.

    Do you think an egotistical man would write a book that declared all of mankind to having an evil nature? Do you think many different men would tell us to turn the other cheek and forgiving even our enemies? These words go against man's love affair with himself.

    The New Testament Christian faith teaches things that no mortal man would want to admit, and having many men coming together on one theme would be impossible.

    If the Bible is written by men, it would be a miracle that different men from thousands of years ago, from different time frames, could write a book that has held the test of time, and unable to be disproven. Non believers for years have been trying to tear down the Bible, and never proove their case.

    The many Prophesies over the ages would be impossible to have come true if written by men.

    I myself see the truth in the words of the Bible. They ring true in every aspect of my life. I see the wisdom of these words still today, thousands of years later! These words have been a blue print in my life, in raising my children, and have kept me from so many problems.

    If written by men from thousands of years ago? WOW!@Happy_Killbot
    Plaffelvohfen
  • @We_are_accountable I do actually think that egotistical men wrote most of the bible.

    Suppose someone were to come along, and find every contradiction in the bible and point them out to you. Would that make you lose faith in the works as being inspired by god and rather written by men?

    Or suppose a historian came along and demonstrated, to your satisfaction, that the prophecies may not have come true, but rather were themselves made up by men to have happened. Would this cause you to  question your beliefs and perhaps change your stance on the bible being absolute truth?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • I did not say they were unfit Christians... I said they were NOT Christians.@Happy_Killbot
    "Judge not, lest ye be judged." If you can, I can. I judge you a hateful Christian …. from experience.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • @We_are_accountable I do actually think that egotistical men wrote most of the bible.

    Suppose someone were to come along, and find every contradiction in the bible and point them out to you. Would that make you lose faith in the works as being inspired by god and rather written by men?

    Or suppose a historian came along and demonstrated, to your satisfaction, that the prophecies may not have come true, but rather were themselves made up by men to have happened. Would this cause you to  question your beliefs and perhaps change your stance on the bible being absolute truth?

    @Amazon:  All That's Wrong With The Bible" By Jonah Conner  A book written by a one time Christian scholar who has decided "the book" is SO contradictory to itself, over and over, that it is quite unbelievable. A B.A. from Liberty University, Jerry Falwell's bastion of Christian fundamentalism is only one of Mr. Connor's credits. A great read for those who wish to be "accountable". o:)
  • I have already heard many men telling us the so called contradictions in the Bible, and I have heard Bible scholars time and again destroying their claims.

    Many Prophecies have come true in recent history, such as the Jewish people getting their own nation of Israel. You can try and say this was just coincedence, but most never believed it would happen.

    I have read lists of the many Prophecies that have come true over the years, and Scholars have said the odds are impossible to be coincedence.@Happy_Killbot
    PlaffelvohfenAlofRI
  • @We_are_accountable You don't answer my question, I'm not asking has it happened or have you seen it happen, I'm asking what if someone could do it, would that change your mind?

    For example, suppose someone believes in a flat earth despite the evidence, and someone ask his: Is there any proof that would make you change your mind, if so what would that proof be?
    and they answer "no" then no matter what they will never change their view, even if you took them into space to see the round earth directly, they would claim it was a drug based hallucination or something. I am asking if there is any evidence that would make you change your mind.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Without repentance (stopping the offensive behavior) there is no forgiveness of sin.

    Jesus said...

    Luke 13:3 “No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all perish as well!”

    The Christian is a warrior for Truth and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are the representatives of Truth in Time and Eternity (John 14:6; John 16:13). When a Christian proclaims the sin and perversity of LGBTQ as immoral, offensive, wrong, a violation of God's Covenant of Marriage and Natural Law, or when a Christian voices rebuttal to the mutilation of God's children in the womb...this is not toxicity, this is Truth and commanded by Scripture.

    "Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;" Ephesians 5:11 (NASB)

    Simply because you have foolishly rejected the Lord of Life, Jesus Christ, for the mediation of your sin and opted to die in your sin (John 8:24) and die in Hell (Revelation 20:11-15), you have no cause to denounce the responsibility of every Christian to stand for righteousness and speak Truth to a World where "many" are headed to death in sin and death in Hell for having rejected Jesus Christ as Lord (Matthew 7:12-14).

    Your words sounds so cozy and politically correct, but you're allied with Satan (John 8:44) and compromise with sin is to be expected. May God's faithful stand for righteousness in these dark and ominous days!!!




  • Yes, I would look at any proof that would change my mind on long held beliefs. If I had believed in a flat Earth, and shown from space how it is round, I would except that fact.

    Those who try to claim the Bible supports a flat Earth, have little to base their beliefs. I have seen their verses having to do with a so called flat earth. These verses are very vague and could not be used as any serious evidence that God has said the Earth is flat. Their distortions of vague verses iin the Bible are reminiscent of fake news against Trump.@Happy_Killbot
  • @We_are_accountable Ok, so you bring up an interesting point here about flat earth society and how they interpret scripture to come to the conclusion that the earth is flat.

    Do you think that any of your beliefs may be similar, in that you interpret it to mean something that it was never intended to mean?

    For example, a lot of people don't think that the story of Noah and the flood or Balaam and the talking donkey is literally true, but is rather supposed to be interpreted metaphorically, and some even go as far as to say that the entire book, although containing much reference to actual historic events, should be interpreted as a metaphor. 
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Just as in life, some things are written metaphorically. When you take the entirety of any text, most people without agendas can discern what is metaphorical and what is reality. There has never been a book taken out of context so many times, so as to try and disprove it's validity, as the Bible.

    Now you have brought up a point of mine with your questioning of a Flat earth.

    Remember how I said it would be a miracle if regular men had written a book, thousands of years ago, that stood the test of time, and not a word that could be definitely disproven with all of the Scientific discoveries today?

    Now imagine a bunch of desert farmers, writing a book a few thousand years ago, when the vast majority of people probably believed the Earth was flat.

    What are the odds of them writing this book, and never referencing something from the times they lived in, that has been completely disproven today?
    Can you imagine anyone being able to write such a book as complex and detailed as the Bible, and never say something that has been totally disproven today?

    THAT WOULD BE A MIRACLE! That would be impossible because they would be speaking out of their own experiences in life, and could never relate to people thousands of years later.

    Do you think that any man could be so lucky not to write something so long ago that today's sceptics could not say GOTCHA? Science today can't go thirty years without their words being disproven with new discoveries from modern technology.

    I hope you can grasp how impossible it would be for any man to write such a book, and not spill the beans hundreds of times!

    Only an all knowing God could write such a book for all the ages.@Happy_Killbot
  • TKDBTKDB 621 Pts
    @ABoehne ;


    What real world evidence do you have to support your statement?
  • @We_are_accountable This has more or less been the central theme of this discussion, but how can we know exactly what should be taken metaphorically and what should be taken literally?

    After all, if we take a direct literal read of the bible, then it is hard to argue that the flat earther's are not right when they claim the bible says the earth is flat.

    There are other bible verses that are literally false, even from the word of Jesus, such as when he call a mustard seed the smallest of seeds in Mathew 13:32, when in fact the mustard seed is not the smallest seed.

    Or in 1 Kings 7:23 when the ratio of Pi is miscalculated as being equal to 3.

    Then of course there is the creation story, which completely contradicts evolution by natural selection.

    So all of these things ought to be interpreted metaphorically since they are literally false right?

    The thing with science is it never tries to prove anything right, it only tries to make things less wrong. True objective knowledge is not achievable with finite resources, so instead what science does it it proves things to be wrong. For example, if you drop and object you will see that it will fall because of gravity, but what if it doesn't the next time you drop it? You can not prove that it won't until you try. In science, you prove things wrong and when you do, you learn what doesn't work, so in this way you can determine what does.
    AlofRI
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @We_are_accountable

    How do you tell something that is written metaphorically from something that is supposed to be taken literally though? This is one of the biggest inconsistencies among Christians: Christians of different denomination disagree on what should be taken literally versus metaphorically, and come to very different conclusions as a result.

    The Bible was allegedly written by god, or by humans who wrote down the god's word. If that is indeed the case, then why would the god make the book so ambiguous? Why not write everything in plain direct Latin, leaving no room for interpretation?

    Usually, when something is written metaphorically, the context explains that it is not to be taken literally. For example, if you have ever read Japanese poetry, you can see that everything there is written in a very metaphorical way, and deciphering what the author really meant is one of the core parts of reading it; everyone who is reading Japanese poetry and is familiar with the culture behind it knows it.
    Yet this is not the case with the Bible. People interpreting the Bible jump between literal and metaphorical all the time. Realize that this way any possible interpretation in principle is valid: you just need to take everything supporting your interpretation as literal, and everything else as metaphorical.

    It is all a huge mess. Everything is much more logical and straightforward if you discard all this mythology and agree that the Bible was written by humans without any divine interference, and those humans wanted to write a fantasy book to illustrate their moral ideology. It is pretty common; I have been gradually designing a book like that myself. In my book, the story is set in a post-apocalyptic fantasy world inhabited by vampires, demons and other creatures, and its moral narrative is focused around anarchic individualism; the story illustrates the value of individualism and the danger of collectivism, and shows how prejudice and stereotypes cloud people's vision.
    This is really how you should interpret the Bible as well. Take it as a fantasy story used as a medium to promote certain moral values. Do not make wild assumptions about the truthfulness of this book; it is not supposed to be truthful.
  • There is no clear reference to the Earth being flat in the Bible. I repeat, how is it possible that men would not clearly mention the Earth beng flat if they had written the Bible? The Bible should be littered with those types of statements.

    There is no proof of Evolution. It is still a theory and one I do not swallow. Can you imagine our complex DNA just randomly occuring? We should be swimming in missing links of all the transitions from ape to man. Do you know how long they have been looking for missing links? Why do we still have apes? Why did some never change? Why have prehistoric animals such as Crocodiles never evolved or randomly mutated? Can you imagine the millions of random mutations it took to create our complex DNA, yet crocodiles have stayed the same for millions of years.

    I want you to imagine desert men having the literary skills to create such a complex book as the Bible. Who on Earth would do that much detailed work to fool everyone into believing in God? What was their motive? There was no money in writing books. Who would have the free time and money to spend centuries writing such a book. What kind of mind could come up with all those prophecies? Why would men continue the work of scam artists from generation to generation? This would be the greatest collective scam of the milleniums. These men were either geniuses or wizards, OR inspired by God. 

    No one knows how the first living cell magically popped to life, and no one knows how God came to be.

    You and I will never have all the answers, but if the Bible was written by men, I will have benefitted from the greatest most wise scam artist counselors in our history.@Happy_Killbot
  • @We_are_accountable No, the bible doesn't make it clear what shape the earth is, never explicitly taking a stance. But is the bible clear on any issue, or can someone with enough imagination always take anything to mean whatever they please?

    Apes are still around for the same reasons that people have cousins. It is wrong to say "humans evolved from apes" a more accurate statement would be "apes and humans evolved from a common ancestor" The reason that many animals remain unchanged for long periods of time is the same as why the stock market might stay constant for long periods of time; if you look at the stock market on any given day or time it is erratic. If you zoom out far enough, then trends start to emerge. This is how species can sometimes change fast but paradoxically seem to never change. Remember, the change is driven by environment. If the creature is fit for its environment, then nature takes a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" type of approach and there is little divergence in the species. We know evolution by natural selection occurs because we have observed it happening.

    Let the picture below sink in: None of these common veggies exists in nature, they are all made by human hands through selective breeding. Evolution is the same thing, except instead of a hand to guide it everything is in response to the organism's environment.

    We talked about Mormons above, but we didn't talk about their founder, Joseph Smith. He was a con-man and probably a narcissist. He went through all the trouble to start a religion, and although you might argue he did it with more modern technology it is still possible in principle therefore, for someone with enough grit and desire to create a new religion, and have their beliefs recorded and followers.

    Joseph Smith has his own list of Prophecies, many of which Mormons claim have been fulfilled.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prophecies_of_Joseph_Smith

    So what are we to conclude from all of this? If it is possible for one huckster to start a religion founded on ideas that can be proven literally false, with prophecies that supposedly have been fulfilled, then isn't it possible that it is all made up by men, and not literally true, and all the prophesies were either made manifest due to the actions of men desiring them to be made reality, or coincidentally occurring?


    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Joseph Smith took the Bible and added the book of Mormons to it. This is nothing to what it took for men to have written the Bible from scratch, back when there were no type writters, computers, etc., back when these men were living in deserts, probably lacking in writing skills.

    Funny how when we look at national Geographic programing of animals in Africa, they start telling us how the Cheetah evolved speed to catch it's prey, and the Leopard evolved camouflage and stealth to catch it's prey, and the Lion evolved team work to catch their prey, etc. etc.

    They talk about evolution as a fact rather than the theory it is. Why is it these animals all evolved differently if everything is in response to the organism's environment?@Happy_Killbot
  • @We_are_accountable But in principal, is there anything that would have prevented ancient scribes from writing down the words of various prophets, who may have been charlatans? After all, writing skills are meaningless without reading skills, so even if god somehow compelled them to make scribbles in clay, it would be useless unless someone else could interpret it.

    Animals have different evolution because there are different niches in nature for animals to fill, and a different body shape is most efficient at that task. This is similar to the way people learn different skills for different jobs, the same set of skills doesn't largely apply to every task, so someone who has a law degree will not be equipped to handle medicine. The same is seen in nature, where a fish is dead on land but fast in water, same as a cheetah is fast on land but slow in the water.

    Another thing to understand about evolution is that there is no end goal in mind at any given time, and when changes do occur they must be relatively close to what already exists. A frog will not give birth to a bird one day, that just doesn't happen. However a frog can give birth to a frog with stronger legs that let it jump higher, or a larger mouth that allows it to eat larger prey, giving it a survival advantage. Lets say we have two frogs of the same species in the same area that are then divided by a glacier and end up separated. On one side of the glacier things are colder and there is less food and larger predators. These frogs have some members with longer legs and some with large mouths, but only the legs give an advantage so the mouth size stays relatively constant. On the other side of the glacier, their are fewer predators and more food sources near the same size as the frog, so these might gain larger mouths than their cousins, but retain leg size. It all changes based on what gives the best survival advantage.

    In the case of the cats of Africa, it is a matter of niches. Cheetahs are relatively small and can not take down large prey, so they mostly focus on catching smaller animals. Lions have a pack strategy which is necessary for taking down larger animals such as elephants, and tend to ignore some smaller animals which are too fast for them and would not be an adequate meal. Leopards live in a different environment, where speed and pack hunting is not as effective as stealth, because they can utilize the trees and thick plant cover for an advantage. Thus it follows that stealth would be a more effective hunting strategy.
    We_are_accountable
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • So what you are doing is exactly what you say Christians do.

    No matter what evidence flies in the face of the theory of evolution, you will always come up with reasons why it is still a viable belief or theory. When I speak to Crocodiles who have not evolved for millions of years, and African Cats, who constantly evolved differently in the same exact region, you have your own personal theories why there is no who conflicts of evolutionary theory. 

    I will ask you the same question as you ask me. Is there any evidence that would ever change your belief in evolution, or will you always come up with your own personal excuses why it has been Scientifically proven.@Happy_Killbot
    AlofRI
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 2410 Pts
    edited February 13
    @We_are_accountable I can directly observe evolution occurring in nature if I so choose. I can force evolution to happen to my liking if I choose. There is no reason for me to deny the practical knowledge attained by understanding evolution, and that knowledge has 3 main applications:
    • I can modify an organism to my liking through the use of hereditary and environmental stimulus
    • I can cause an organism to go extinct only by causing changes outside of the ability for the organism to adapt.
    • I can know that any changes I make to the environment which are not outside of the organism's ability to adapt will cause the organism to adapt.
    I can not deny evolution if I know these things are true, and if I know these things are true I can not deny evolution.

    You know all these things are true:
    • Many domesticated plants and animals exist by human intervention that are not present in nature
    • Humans have caused the extinction of many animals and plants in exactly this way. The Holocene extinction is one of the worst losses in biodiversity ever, and we sit in the middle of it.
    • Whenever a bacteria adapts to antibiotics or an insect to a pesticide, that is evolution at play. The organism adapts rather than being destroyed.
    Evolution was never about belief, it was always about capability.

    I do not believe in evolution, I can use evolution.
    We_are_accountable
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • DeeDee 2364 Pts
    @We_are_accountable

    **** No matter what evidence flies in the face of the theory of evolution, 

    Evidence ? Post one peer reviewed paper that proves Evolution is wrong I bet you cannot why’s that do you think? 
  • Some of my best friends would be considered "sinners" …. like ME! Still, we don't hurt anyone, otherwise we wouldn't be friends.

    It amazes me that so many "Christians" are following (and adoring), one of the countries biggest sinners, EVER! A major philanderer who abuses women (by his own admission), who cheats people out of their money, who lies profusely, who tears apart families and causes the deaths of "actual" babies …. and who knows how many "virtual" ones, here and abroad, How many died waiting for anti-tank weapons that he delayed??
    He is taking, (or fighting to), health insurance from actual children, and who knows how many mothers carrying "virtual" ones?? He turns actual and virtual children and their mothers back to the gangs that want to rape and take those "actual children", to use and abuse, while he does all he can to ignore the REAL problem, poverty and international gangs! While he does all he can to assure the worlds clean water and air are polluted … so these actuals and virtuals get sick and die. Yes, Christians SHOULD stop being toxic to sinners (except, maybe ONE) and leave their punishment to their "God". Many "sinners" really don't hurt anyone. Actually a couple of sinners … together … can make a lot of LOVE, while certain "Christians" spread a lot of HATE! (Like our Sinner-in-Chief ;-)
  • So you have absolutely no proof we all evolved from some primortial single cell that magically came to life from nothing, but buy into it 100% because of Darwinism's reference to Giraff's growing longer necks to reach the higher food on trees. Funny how all the other animals did not grow longer necks to reach that food.

    Talk about faith in the unknown! You should give a cult name to this evolution thing.@Happy_Killbot
  • @We_are_accountable No, I can't prove for 100% sure that we came from a cell, science isn't about proving things right, it's about proving what is wrong, the more things we know are wrong the more we know what is useful, which is what science is really about, usefulness. There is NOTHING that can be proved 100% because we can not prove that the world is real.

    What does thinking that the world was created do for you? Does it make you feel special? Does it make you believe that humans are better than animals?

    That's what this debate is really about,isn't it? The idea that "humans evolved from animals" bothers you because it implies that humans are no better than them, that we can go extinct at any time, and that the bible is literally false.

    It doesn't bother me, because knowledge is power, knowing that evolution is true gives me capabilities that the creation myth does not give. You value feelings over uncomfortable truths, I value Knowledge even if it is uncomfortable, because it allows me to know what capabilities I have, thus meaning I can reach greater potential.

    Tell me, what are some uncomfortable truths which you have encountered that changed your life?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
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