frame

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

DebateIsland.com is the largest online debate website globally where anyone can anonymously and easily debate online, casually or formally, while connecting with their friends and others. Users, regardless of debating skill level, can civilly debate just about anything online in a text-based online debate website that supports five easy-to-use and fun debating formats ranging from Casual, to Formalish, to Lincoln-Douglas Formal. In addition, people can improve their debating skills with the help of revolutionary artificial intelligence-powered technology on our debate website. DebateIsland is totally free and provides the best online debate experience of any debate website.


Communities




Is "logos" (Word) in John 1:1 a person?

Debate Information

Position: Against
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (NIV)

This debate will cover the meaning of the Koine Greek word logos as it was used in the Gospel of John chapter one verse one. All arguments must pertain to this verse regarding the author's intended use of the word logos. Any Bible verses used must be shown to have direct bearing on the author's intended use of this word in the verse in question. I will be arguing in the position against this word being used to refer to any person in this verse.

It is of inestimable importance for any serious student of the Bible to come to a basic understanding of the Koine Greek word logos, which most Bibles render as "Word." in John 1:1. The translation "Word" is certainly not to be taken in the ordinary sense as the English language would normally assign it, however to take the position that it in any way refers to a person is stretching logos far beyond its lexical scope and well beyond any indications in the verse itself. Nonetheless, the common understanding among Trinitarian Christians is that the word logos in this verse refers directly to Jesus Christ, and so for this reason the English translators of the KJV saw fit to capitalize "Word" according to the common English convention for indicating persons. The Greek source texts for the New Testament, however, were written in all capital letters known as uncials without spaces, punctuation, accents or diacritical marks. So the decision as to whether to capitalize any word translated from a Koine Greek source text into English cannot be determined by indications in the source text alone. A study of the word logos shows that out of more than 300 occurrences in the Greek NT, the KJV and the NIV both capitalize the word only seven times and even these versions disagree as to when capitalization is necessary. I would suggest that when a word occurring more than 300 times is capitalized fewer than 10 times, obviously the decision of when to capitalize it is based on the translators personal theological understanding of Scripture.
                   
Logos has a wide range of meaning within the New Testament which follow two lines of thought:

  1. The mind and products of the mind like “reason,”  therefore "logic" is related to logos, and
  2. The expression of that reason as a “word,” “saying,” “command” etc.   
I would suggest that the first meaning #1 above best describes the meaning of logos in verse 1, since logos is still with Him at this point and has not yet been expressed as a creative command which would be meaning #2.

John expressed his ideas in this verse in a poetic reference to Genesis 1:1 which says "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." In day one of creation, the precedent is set for God's creative "word," or command being used as the agent of creation. When God created, he used commands e.g. "Let thee be light." This is precisely the concept that John was trying to convey with His use of the term "logos." When God's plan is His conception as it exists before He issues a creative command, it is described by John as being "with" Him.  and when that plan is set in motion by a command it is said to be "made flesh," which is a term that is still used even today in poetic reference to John 1:14. A person might say, "Today my plans have been made flesh" and people will know that he means that his plans have been realized or have come into fruition. In John 1 God's "word" becoming flesh has a double meaning, because His "word" became "flesh" and blood when His moral characteristics and the purposes that God had for mankind that were contained in His Word became realized in the life of His Son Jesus. This, however occurs in v. 14. This is not the meaning of logos in verse 1.

In addition to John's direct reference to Genesis1, there is also a direct parallel between logos in John 1:1 and proverbs 8, which is also linked to Genesis1:

Wisdom’s Part in Creation

22 The Lord created me at the beginning[a] of his work,[b]
    the first of his acts of long ago.
23 Ages ago I was set up,
    at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
    when there were no springs abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains had been shaped,
    before the hills, I was brought forth—
26 when he had not yet made earth and fields,[c]
    or the world’s first bits of soil.
27 When he established the heavens, I was there,
    when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 when he made firm the skies above,
    when he established the fountains of the deep,
29 when he assigned to the sea its limit,
    so that the waters might not transgress his command,
when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
30     then I was beside him, like a master worker;[d]
and I was daily his[e] delight,
    rejoicing before him always,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world
    and delighting in the human race.

Nobody takes Wisdom in Proverbs 8 as being an actual feminine person, but instead as a poetic personification of God's attribute of wisdom. Likewise logos can be seen as a personification of Gods reason and plan. The parallels are far too similar to ignore or pass off as coincidental or insignificant. Just as logos in John 1:1 is "with" God in the beginning, so Wisdom is "beside" God in the beginning in Proverbs 8. Both verses are saying the same thing. They are poetic personifications, not actual persons.

       The wide range of meaning logos has within scripture is shown in the following scriptural occurrences: account, appearance, book, command, conversation, eloquence, flattery, grievance, heard, instruction, matter, message, ministry, news, proposal, question, reason, reasonable, reply, report, rule, rumor, said, say, saying, sentence, speaker, speaking, speech, stories, story, talk, talking, teaching, testimony, thing, things, this, truths, what, why, word and words. Obviously the word "logos" covers a lot of ground!

Any good Greek lexicon will show this wide range of meaning. (Words in bolded italics in the following are translated from logos)
  • speaking; words you say (Rom. 15:18, “what I have said and done”).
  • a statement you make (Luke 20:20 – (NASB), “they might catch him in some statement).
  • a question (Matt. 21:24, “I will also ask you one question”).
  • preaching (1 Tim. 5:17, “especially those whose work is preaching and teaching).
  • command (Gal. 5:14, “the entire law is summed up in a single command).
  • proverb; saying (John 4:37, “thus the saying, ‘One sows, and another reaps’”).
  • message; instruction; proclamation (Luke 4:32, “his message had authority”).
  • assertion; declaration; teaching (John 6:60, “this is a hard teaching”).
  • the subject under discussion; matter (Acts 8:21, “you have no part or share in this ministry.” Acts 15:6 (NASB), “And the apostles… came together to look into this matter”).
  • revelation from God (Matt. 15:6, “you nullify the Word of God ”).
  • God’s revelation spoken by His servants (Heb. 13:7, “leaders who spoke the Word of God”).
  • a reckoning, an account (Matt. 12:36, “men will have to give account on the day of judgment).
  • an account or “matter” in a financial sense (Matt. 18:23, A king who wanted to settle “accounts” with his servants. Phil. 4:15, “the matter of giving and receiving”).
  • a reason; motive (Acts 10:29 – NASB), “I ask for what reason you have sent for me”). [1]
    Arndt and Gingrich, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (University of Chicago Press, 1979).

The proper meaning for any occurrence of logos can only be derived from a careful study of its context. There is nothing in the context to lead to the conclusion that logos of John 1:1 is a direct reference to Jesus. Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition for logos, so the verse is not saying, "in the beginning was Jesus." The term logos or "the word" is, after all, not synonymous with Jesus or with "the Messiah." This is an idea that was introduced at a much later time by Christian writers in reference to the description given in Revelation 19:13 which is a part of an apocalyptic vision, and the title "word of God" is meant to symbolically impart the understanding that Jesus "embodies" God's message and is His representative on the earth. The Revelation was written years later and therefore had no bearing on John's Gospel. By making a direct reference to Genesis 1 and a direct parallel to Proverbs 8, John was linking logos with God's creative plan and process through the use of poetic personification. Once again, he did not intend that logos was an actual person.

Logos
 in John 1:1 refers to God’s creative power. It is His reason, His purposes and plans, which He brings into action. It refers to God’s self-expression, or communication, of Himself as it has come to pass in His creation and in heaven, e.g. "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."  It has also come through the words of the prophets and through the Scriptures, which contain the written Word. Finally, and most importantly, it has come into being through His Son. (Heb. 1:1-2) The important thing to know is that all of these things are expressions of God's logos. To limit the term to Jesus alone is missing the point that John was making! Logos represents God's wisdom expressed in action. Just as anyones wisdom is "with them" always and guides and determines their actions, so God's logos, which is the expression and evidence of His wisdom, has always been "with" Him. We must not mistake personification of God's Word as being an actual person. Jesus is an expression of God's Wisdom, which is why He is called the "image of God." An image is never the thing it is an image of! The plain truth is that an image, no matter how perfect it may be, is still only a representation or reflection of something. Jesus is, therefore, what the logos "became," implying that the character and qualities of God's Holy nature took form in a human life, the life of Jesus of Nazareth. God's "wisdom" or "logos" or creative self-expression "became flesh" or was "realized" and made known (manifested) in the Life of His Son Jesus. The logos of John 1:1 is not a pre-existent person that was physically present with God, The Gospel writer used the word "logos" as a poetic personification to represent the expression of God's character and holy nature which at the chosen time became imbued or manifested in the life of His Son Jesus.



Debra AI Prediction

Tie
Predicted
50%
Likely
50%
Unlikely

Details +




Debate Type: Traditional Debate



Voting Format: Moderate Voting

Opponent:

Rounds: 3

Time Per Round: 24 Hours Per Round


Voting Period: 24 Hours


Status: Not Accepted (Post Argument To Accept The Debate)

Forfeited



Post Argument Now Debate Details +



    Arguments


Sign In or Register to comment.

Back To Top

DebateIsland.com

| The Best Online Debate Experience!
© 2023 DebateIsland.com, all rights reserved. DebateIsland.com | The Best Online Debate Experience! Debate topics you care about in a friendly and fun way. Come try us out now. We are totally free!

Contact us

customerservice@debateisland.com
Terms of Service

Get In Touch