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Should religion and the state be separate?
in Politics

By JGXdebatePROJGXdebatePRO 168 Pts
The definition of this is should governments be under religious influence? I think not. Debate away!

NO BIBLE QUOTES
  1. Live Poll

    Should religion and the state be separate?

    11 votes
    1. yes
      90.91%
    2. no
        9.09%
«1



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Arguments

  • There can be no freedom of religion without freedom from religion, the intertwining of church and state would guarantee that no one can believe as they desire without undue influence. It is therefore imperative that we maintain our governments secular, such that both church and state can maintain greater purity in themselves.

    No more should we suffer the senseless bloodshed of jihad, dogmatic violence, or crusade to stain the earth. Theocracies should be toppled, beliefs should be maintained personal, and freedom should be embraced.
    PlaffelvohfenSkepticalOne
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation, Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root and developed into the human race, who conquered fire, built societies and developed technology .
    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • AlofRIAlofRI 552 Pts
    Should we be a democratic republic or an authoritarian theocracy?? Same question, different wording.
  • The definition of this is should governments be under religious influence? I think not. Debate away!

    NO BIBLE QUOTES
    These are not the same things.

    1. Can a separation of religion take place from within its own state?
    2. When is something just a basic denial of equal representation due to religious prejudice?

    Governing is in basic a religious influence for which more people as followers can take part in the shared service as belief then the more complex structures of human routine coved in larger organized followings. Keep in mind when a separation of religion can take place from its own state, this also means separation in governing is possible from its own state. This is the well-structured understanding of the relief of command by an authority created by the structure created by democracy.
  • I believe religion and state mixed = disaster. You will have money laundering priests running countries and granted far too much power.
    Image result for religious government memes
    It just dosen't work.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • TKDBTKDB 538 Pts
    edited March 18
    No, it shouldn't be separated.

    Unless any Atheist can show me how any Religion, is personally affecting their Atheist way of life, or lifestyle, than any non Atheist individual, should be able to engage in the Religion of choice, without being discriminated against, because of their Religious choices.

    Or to see the use of Atheist Segregation, to have its Atheist way with the public in general.

    Any Atheist can be an Atheist all that they want, provided that they aren't INFRINGING on the rights of any individual to being Religious oriented.

    I have gone to Catholic churches, Baptist churches, Protestant churches, and non Denominational churches, and in all of those visits, have I ever heard, the head individuals of those Religious buildings, preaching to the parishioners about engaging in the non existent practice Atheist Discrimination, or the Segregating any Atheist from entering inside of any Religious building.

    But on the internet, the Separation of Church and State conversation is wielded by some like an invisible mallet.

    And are on the internet, teaching about Religious Discrimination, and the tool of Religious Segregation, by using the Separation of Church and State rhetoric, at their leisure, because apparently somehow, Religion is interfering with their Atheist way of life, or lifestyle? 



    Plaffelvohfen
  • TKDBTKDB 538 Pts
    Another thought, what is preventing any group of Atheists, from creating an Atheist School System?

    This way any Atheist can send their children to those schools, thus they won't have to fret over their kids, from hearing any type of prayer, from anyone on the non Atheist School property?
    Plaffelvohfen
  • @TKDB
    The whole idea of the separation of church and state is that one may have the freedom to practice or not practice any religion one likes. If the Church and the state were NOT separate, it would mean the state was under the influence and control of one church which would most likely mean all citizens of said state would HAVE TO practice the religion of the controlling church. 

    On another note, the school system you mentioned is called a PRIVATE school. A school not funded by the state of federal systems. Even though most private schools are religion oriented (due to the fact that you cant practice religion/use religious values in a public school) I guess you probably could make a private Atheist school.
    ZeusAres42
    Not every quote you read on the internet is true- Abraham Lincoln
  • TKDB said:
    Another thought, what is preventing any group of Atheists, from creating an Atheist School System?

    This way any Atheist can send their children to those schools, thus they won't have to fret over their kids, from hearing any type of prayer, from anyone on the non Atheist School property?
    What is an "atheist school system", and would you be willing to fund it with your tax dollars?
  • SkepticalOneSkepticalOne 480 Pts
    edited March 18
    I believe religion and state mixed = disaster. You will have money laundering priests running countries and granted far too much power.
    Image result for religious government memes
    It just dosen't work.
    Christian nationalists are attempting to twist "freedom of religion" to mean that religious neutrality is actually hostile to religion. I adamantly reject this nonsense. Neutrality is fair for everyone.
    AmericanFurryBoyHappy_KillbotPlaffelvohfen
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3208 Pts
    @SkepticalOne

    That is an interesting element of human psychology I noticed a while ago: that whenever we feel strongly about something, what we see as the neutral stance shifts towards ours. For example, when someone is in love with a woman and believes that she is the most beautiful woman in the world, then, when someone just says, "She looks fine, I guess" (which is not even a neutral stance, but slightly positive), the person may get offended on her behalf, feeling that she is being negatively misjudged.

    Similarly, to a person for whom a certain religion is a center of their life and thoughts someone simply saying, "You are free to believe whatever you want; I do not care about religion that much", may look like putting religion down, while in reality it is a neutral stance.

    This is one of the reasons religion and state should be separated: they cannot be put together without this effect creating a governing bias favoring the particular religion over all other religions and ideologies. Albeit the bigger reason, in my opinion, is the general principle of impartiality of the government - which is why I do not like the phrase "separation of religion from state", as it is not general enough: the more general would be "separation of ideology from state".
  • @MayCaesar

    Hmmm, a separation of ideology from state seems very difficult. How would that work?
    Grafix
  • A church separated for its state is not a religion. Separation of church and state is a phrase describing an effect on something as a change made during a constitutional union takes place. Hence the term state of the union. Should religion and a basic legal state be kept from making unions? No. It is an easy form of evaluation to a common well being.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • TKDBTKDB 538 Pts
    edited March 18
    @Plaffelvohfen

    @SkepticalOne

    @AmericanFurryBoy

    @MayCaesar

    @Happy_Killbot

    Wouldn't any of you, use your Atheist Tax Dollars to fund a Private Atheist School system?

    And as a matter of pro Religious Freedom and pro Atheist Freedom, I would be more than happy if the U.S. Government, took my pro Religious Freedom tax dollars, and used those VERY TAX dollars to FUND, a Private Atheist School system.

    Heck, I would even DONATE funds to the Private Atheist School system.

    Because I'm not anti Atheist, nor do I believe in Atheist Discrimination, or in Atheist Segregation for that matter either.

    Because to me, I'm assuming that any Atheist parent, or parents, would have a rejuvenated peace of mind, knowing that the Atheist children themselves, could go to a Private Atheist School, thus keeping the Atheist parents, from fretting over their fears, of hearing ANY type of prayer, from within the confines, of their Private Atheist School system property?

    PlaffelvohfenHappy_KillbotAmericanFurryBoy
  • @TKDB

    Wouldn't any of you, use your Atheist Tax Dollars to fund a Private Atheist School system?

    There is no such thing as "atheist tax dollars" just as there any such thing as "Christian tax dollars". There is only the *public* coffer and it should be spent in ways that benefits everyone as equally as possible. 

    An "atheist school system" would not benefit anyone other than atheists (I still don't know what would be taught in an atheist school system) just as a 'Christian school system' would not benefit anyone other than Christians. That's not equality.

    A public school system neutral to religion benefits everyone equally.

    Plaffelvohfen
  • TKDBTKDB 538 Pts
    edited March 19
    @SkepticalOne

    No, it doesn't.

    Because the anti religious crowd, isn't treating the public school system in a neutral way is it?

    Being that it's using the Separation of Church and State Law, to have its pro anti religious crowd way, with the neutrality of the public school system, isn't it @SkepticalOne?

    "An "atheist school system" would not benefit anyone other than atheists (I still don't know what would be taught in an atheist school system) just as a 'Christian school system' would not benefit anyone other than Christians. That's not equality.

    Sure it's equality, it's equality to those religious oriented students.

    Just as with a Private Atheist School system, would have equality towards those Atheist students.

    This way the Religious students, and the Atheist students, wouldn't see their individual Religious orientation, or their individual Atheist orientation infringed on, by the other students, who aren't Religious oriented, or Atheist oriented?

    "A public school system neutral to religion benefits everyone equally."

    Why would any Atheist have an issue, with a Private Atheist School system?

    I've got $100.00 right now, to DONATE to the funding of the Private Atheist School system.

    Plaffelvohfen
  • RickeyDRickeyD 540 Pts
    There are certainly religions that the State should ostracize and condemn, IMHO!

    Page 707 of EDITORIAL Is Atheism a Religion Recent Judicial Perspectives on the Constitutional Meaning of Religion


    RoroSandiego
  • @JGXdebatePRO Church and state should be separated. I will use bible quotes sir you cannot stop me.
    Matthew 22:21 Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."
    This quote means give the authority what they want (which was money in that context) and give God what he wants. Jesus himself was preaching separation of religion and state and this quote is commonly used to advocate for it from the christians community. If you ever find christians that doesn't want separation you could use this quote against them.
    piloteer
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3208 Pts
    @SkepticalOne

    Well, the state simply does not endorse, or give legal preference to, any ideology, and its functionality is not governed by anything but the Constitution.

    McCarthyism is an example of state violating ideological impartiality, while having nothing to do with religion. I dislike communism as much as the next person, but using the coercive power of the state to enforce anti-communist policies is dangerous and, when done for a long enough period of time, tends to result simply in a different brand of authoritarianism, but authoritarianism nonetheless.
    A lot of Eastern-European countries nowadays have policies outlawing narratives supporting fascism and/or communism. I do not think this is the right way to fight against those malicious ideologies: you do not defeat totalitarianism by silencing those who promote it, you merely make them into martyrs this way, allowing them to use the persecution to gain more sympathy from people.

    I do not think separation of religion from state is somehow more important than separation of other ideologies from state. It is not the business of the government officials what ideologies people believe in and promote, and the state should be completely impartial and independent of them. It should provide a framework within which people operate independently, not a set of rules on how people should think.
  • @RoroSandiego ;

    If following simple directions is not a  human strong point then why bother?
  • A religious person can separate their own church from the state of religion. Separation of church and state. Will they, or will it need to be done on their behalf?
  • @TKDB
    Buddy, Private schools don’t get government funding

    @RickeyD
    Posting some image off of the internet with bible quotes and or nor context really isn’t an argument. In addition, neither Atheism nor Evolution are religions. Atheism is the Absence of religion, while Evolution is a widely accepted THEORY
    ZeusAres42
    Not every quote you read on the internet is true- Abraham Lincoln
  • TKDBTKDB 538 Pts
    @AmericanFurryBoy

    Hey Buddy, and the anti religious crowd, isn't treating the public school system in a neutral way is it?

    Being that it's using the Separation of Church and State Law, to have its pro anti religious crowd way, with the neutrality of the public school system, isn't it @AmericanFurryBoy ?
    PlaffelvohfenAmericanFurryBoy
  • @MayCaesar

    Would you consider democracy, liberalism, or conservatism to be ideologies?
  • @TKDB

    Because the anti religious crowd, isn't treating the public school system in a neutral way is it?

    I don't understand how you think neutrality is persecution? Neutrality means no one religious views are privileged. It's TRUE this means Christians can't co-opt government authority to push their views on other people's children, but this same restriction applies to every religious group. What is unfair about that?

    piloteerZeusAres42
  • TKDBTKDB 538 Pts
    @AmericanFurryBoy

    @Plaffelvohfen

    @MayCaesar

    @SkepticalOne

    @Happy_Killbot

    @JGXdebatePRO

    https://www-publicschoolreview-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.publicschoolreview.com/amp/blog/are-atheist-clubs-the-wave-of-the-future-in-public-school?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA=#aoh=15846294133570&referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.publicschoolreview.com/blog/are-atheist-clubs-the-wave-of-the-future-in-public-school

    "Are Atheist Clubs the Wave of the Future in Public School?"

    "High school students have many options in extracurricular activities today, allowing them to explore a wide range of interests. For students who want to move beyond the basic theatre productions, school newspaper, and high school athletics, there is another choice available at a growing number of schools today – atheist clubs. These organizations of self-proclaimed free-thinking students have been cropping up at high schools from coast to coast, thanks in part to the rising number of religious clubs that have also been making their way into classrooms today."

    The Rise of Atheist Clubs

    "According to the Huffington Post, the increase in atheist clubs is being fueled in part by an organization known as the Secular Student Alliance. This group is responsible for placing more than 300 college-based clubs into schools nationwide for free-thinking students, and it is now moving into the high school realm."

    Loading video

    "The director of the high school program for Secular Student Alliance, JT Eberhard, told the Huffington Post that he would like to see the rise in both atheist and other religious clubs inspire a dialogue between all students. In addition, Eberhard said, “I also hope it will let the atheist students know that you can be an atheist and it’s okay.”

    At the start of the 2011-2012 school year, there were approximately one dozen clubs established at high schools across the country. This summer, that number has risen to 39 groups in 17 states, and 73 schools have requested information from the Secular Student Alliance about how to start an atheist club at their location."

    "The Washington Post reports that many of these clubs are found in states that have a number of residents claiming no religious affiliation, including Washington, New York, and California. However, a significant number are also coming into “Bible belt” states like Alabama, Texas, North Carolina and Louisiana. In some cases, students are able to establish their clubs with little resistance from school administrators, although others have had to fight harder to get the school staff to accept and allow their groups to meet."

    Legal Ramifications of Atheist Clubs

    "Despite the fact that some school administrators are uncomfortable with the idea of an atheist club, students who want to form the groups are protected by the Equal Access Act of 1984U.S. Legal describes the Equal Access Act as legislation that compels public schools to provide equal access to extracurricular clubs. The act was originally designed to allow for the establishment of Christian clubs within public schools but has also been used to support clubs of different religions, as well as Gay-Straight Alliances."

    "Rev. Barry Lynn, one of the co-authors of the Equal Access Act, told USA Today that the legislation provides “a free speech benefit” to believers and atheists alike. Now, with the help of the Secular Student Alliance, atheist students around the country are taking full advantage of the law, by organizing their own groups of student skeptics, free thinkers and those that simply want to explore both sides of the religion issue."

    Loading video

    "In order to start an extracurricular club at a school, according to the Equal Access Act, students must be able to demonstrate student interest in the club and attract a faculty sponsor. When the group abides by these guidelines, no club can be discriminated against based on politics, religion or philosophy. The club cannot interfere with the “orderly conduct of educational activities within the school.” Schools can also opt out of the act entirely, by prohibiting all extracurricular clubs that are not curriculum-based."


    "Today, as more Christian groups have trumpeted their rights to form clubs within the schools, atheists, and other groups are taking notice. The Secular Coalition for America asserts that Jay Sekulow, the director of the American Center for Law and Justice, has championed many of these efforts, by defending religious groups in the American court system. However, Sekulow’s efforts may very well be the same path to allow groups of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists – and even atheists – to take advantage of the same legal protections upon which Christians have learned to call."

    The View of Atheists in Public School

    According to atheists who have attempted to start their own clubs in public schools, the problems do not lie as much with their legal protection as with the attitudes of other students, teachers, and administrators. A student at an Oklahoma high school organized one meeting of his new atheist club before getting pulled into the principal’s office and accused of starting a “hate club,” according to USA Today. His sponsor teacher withdrew from the club the next day, telling the student continuing his participation would be “a bad career move.”

    Loading video

    "However, other students have been able to form clubs with little or no resistance from staff or other students. Trevor Lynn, a high school student in Eureka, California, faced no problems when he began his own atheist club at school."

    “The administration of our school really prides itself on being able to have a club for everybody,” Lynn told the Washington Post. “They saw no reason to stop us.”

    "In some cases, it may be the approach of the club members that impacts most directly the reaction from the rest of the school. The New York Times reports on a successful club started at Rutherford High School in Panama City, Florida. The faculty sponsor of the group, Michael Creamer, encourages his students to be friendly and non-confrontational when dealing with other students that do not share their beliefs."

    “Mr. Creamer told us, as an atheist, you have to be on your best behavior,” one club member told the New York Times. 


    So the concept of an Atheist School or Education system, isn't that far off from becoming an already burgeoning reality.

    A primary example: the existence of these new up and coming "Atheist Club's."

    Am I'm still ready to DONATE, $100.00 to an Atheist School system.


    Happy_KillbotPlaffelvohfen
  • TKDBTKDB 538 Pts
    edited March 19
    @SkepticalOne

    Show the forum your example of the "Persecution," that you have evidence to?

    "I don't understand how you think neutrality is persecution?"

    "Neutrality means no one religious views are privileged."

    But again, the anti religious crowd, isn't treating the public school system in a neutral way is it @SkepticalOne?

    Here's an example of an Atheist privilege power play:

    The very use, of the Separation of Church and State Law, to have its pro anti religious crowd way, with the neutrality of the public school system, isn't it @SkepticalOne?

    "It's TRUE this means Christians can't co-opt government authority to push their views on other people's children, but this same restriction applies to every religious group."

    "What is unfair about that?"

    @SkepticalOne

    What's unfair about the creation of an Atheist Public School system?



    Plaffelvohfen
  • TKDB said:
    @SkepticalOne

    Show the forum your example of the "Persecution," that you have evidence to?

    "I don't understand how you think neutrality is persecution?"

    "Neutrality means no one religious views are privileged."

    But again, the anti religious crowd, isn't treating the public school system in a neutral way is it @SkepticalOne?

    Here's an example of an Atheist privilege power play:

    The very use, of the Separation of Church and State Law, to have its pro anti religious crowd way, with the neutrality of the public school system, isn't it @SkepticalOne?

    "It's TRUE this means Christians can't co-opt government authority to push their views on other people's children, but this same restriction applies to every religious group."

    "What is unfair about that?"

    @SkepticalOne

    What's unfair about the creation of an Atheist Public School system?



    You've done nothing but repeat yourself in a more incoherent way. Explain, in your own words, how nuetrality is unfair. 

    The article you posted doesn't support your assertions. In fact, it cites specifics example where atheists are being treated differently than other groups built on religious views. Also, extracurricular groups would not typically be considered an example of government speech. The sponsor is not paid to be involved in these clubs, and all participants attend voluntarily.
    Plaffelvohfenpiloteer
  • @SkepticalOne ;
    You've done nothing but repeat yourself in a more incoherent way. Explain, in your own words, how nuetrality is unfair. 

    1. Enforcing neutrality is unfair. 2. Governing cannot take place from the position of neutrality. Judgment comes from a position of nonbiased, or precedent. There is still the consideration that separation of church and state is the display of a process that allows a church to separate itself from the state of religion. After all the people in the church are by fact still citizens of a governed nation.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • John_C_87 said:
    @SkepticalOne ;
    You've done nothing but repeat yourself in a more incoherent way. Explain, in your own words, how nuetrality is unfair. 

    1. Enforcing neutrality is unfair. 2. Governing cannot take place from the position of neutrality. 
    It's not about forcing neutrality, but disallowing obvious priviledge. Governing can be neutral - it happens all the time in matters religious and otherwise.
  • TKDBTKDB 538 Pts
    edited March 19
    @SkepticalOne

    This is the truth, and I doubt that you can disprove that truth, without any pro Atheist oriented talking points can you?

    (The Truth, the anti religious crowd, isn't treating the public school system in a neutral way is it @SkepticalOne?

    Here's an example of an Atheist privilege power play:

    The very use, of the Separation of Church and State Law, to have its pro anti religious crowd way, with the neutrality of the public school system, isn't it @SkepticalOne? )


    And in your name SPECIFICALLY, as soon as an Atheist Public School system becomes a near reality, just like the NEW Atheist Clubs are a reality, I'm going to DONATE $1000.00, and write on the check, that you @SkepticalOne , is the individual, who inspired me to make a donation to the up and coming Atheist Public School system.

    "You've done nothing but repeat yourself in a more incoherent way. Explain, in your own words, how nuetrality is unfair."

    "The article you posted doesn't support your assertions. In fact, it cites specifics example where atheists are being treated differently than other groups built on religious views. Also, extracurricular groups would not typically be considered an example of government speech. The sponsor is not paid to be involved in these clubs, and all participants attend voluntarily."

    "It's not about forcing neutrality, but disallowing obvious priviledge. Governing can be neutral - it happens all the time in matters religious and otherwise."

    Are you trying to persuade me, with your pro Atheist counter argument? 
  • @TKDB
    I have yet to see or even hear of an atheist club in my state. They don’t seem to be common, from what I can tell. I really don’t see your point here as there is nothing stopping a group of students from making a Catholic, Protestant, Muslim club, in fact, I believe there is a Jewish club at my school. 

    Also, neutrality doesn’t treat religions unfairly, it treats them as equals to atheists. It’s neutrality; the state of not supporting or helping either side in a conflict, disagreement, etc.; impartiality.
    ZeusAres42
    Not every quote you read on the internet is true- Abraham Lincoln
  • SkepticalOneSkepticalOne 480 Pts
    edited March 19
    @TKDB

    Are you trying to persuade me, with your pro Atheist counter argument? 

    Where have I advocated "pro-atheism" in government? This accusation has everything to do with your biases rather than my mine.

    If a government protects every citizen's freedoms equally, how can it be for or against one group or another?

    piloteer
  • TKDBTKDB 538 Pts
    @SkepticalOne

    Your pro Atheist bias is VERY obvious.
    AmericanFurryBoypiloteerZeusAres42
  • TKDB said:
    @SkepticalOne

    Your pro Atheist bias is VERY obvious.
    Citation needed.
  • TKDBTKDB 538 Pts
    edited March 19
    @SkepticalOne

    Here's your CITATION, explain to the internet, and to this forum, why the anti Religious crowd, hasn't gone after the Catholic School system in the United States?

    If you're going to keep pushing the message, about Equality like you're doing, why the hesitation to not utilize, the Separation of Church and State Law, to purge Religion, out of the Catholic School system?

    If we're going to talk about pure equality and fairness, then why hasn't ANY non Religious individual, on the internet for years now, failed to go about purging the Catholic School system, with the non Religious tool called the Separation of Church and State Law tool? 

    Or go after the plethora of Religious Colleges across the United States, with the same Separation of Church and State Law, and purge Religion, out of those Religious Colleges?

    You've been reiterating about Equality, when it appears to me, that there's a lot of Inequality going on, when there are Catholic Schools, and Religious Colleges, across the country, awaiting to be purged of Religion? 
    piloteer
  • TKDBTKDB 538 Pts
    edited March 19
    @AmericanFurryBoy

    Same argument to you:

    Explain to the internet, and to this forum, why the anti Religious crowd, hasn't gone after the Catholic School system in the United States?

    If you're going to keep pushing the messaging, about Equality, Neutrality, Disagreement, and Impartiality, like you're doing, why the hesitation to not utilize, the Separation of Church and State Law, to purge Religion, out of the Catholic School system?

    If we're going to talk about pure equality and fairness, then why hasn't ANY non Religious individual, on the internet for years now, failed to go about purging the Catholic School system, with the non Religious tool called the Separation of Church and State Law tool? 

    Or go after the plethora of Religious Colleges across the United States, with the same Separation of Church and State Law, and purge Religion, out of those Religious Colleges?

    You've been reiterating about Equality, when it appears to me, that there's a lot of Inequality going on, when there are Catholic Schools, and Religious Colleges, across the country, awaiting to be purged of Religion?  



    "Also, neutrality doesn’t treat religions unfairly, it treats them as equals to atheists. It’s neutrality; the state of not supporting or helping either side in a conflict, disagreement, etc.; impartiality."
    AmericanFurryBoy
  • SkepticalOneSkepticalOne 480 Pts
    edited March 19
    @TKDB

    In this context, a citation would be a quote of mine from this thread demonstrating a "pro-atheist" bias. You've not provided a citation, sir.

    As for the "Catholic school system", I assume you are referring to private schools. This is not government and the separation of church and state (ie. Government) is not applicable so long as government stays out of the church's business. Get it?
    Plaffelvohfenpiloteer
  • @SkepticalOne ;

    Do you understand what governing is? It cannot be neutral it becomes destructive to that which is governed. Something governed is something well-regulated to keep it efficient and its operation consistent over a duration.

    I get what the implication is saying with neutrality however the idea of experience has a roll in evaluating a course of action. An economy may slow and need an incentive to pick up, and the economy may be exasperated and only need incentive to be moderated so more is made of the less created by a stable rate of flow. Improvement is not always dictated by the same motions as a reaction. 



  • John_C_87 said:
    @SkepticalOne ;

    Do you understand what governing is? It cannot be neutral it becomes destructive to that which is governed. Something governed is something well-regulated to keep it efficient and its operation consistent over a duration.

    I get what the implication is saying with neutrality however the idea of experience has a roll in evaluating a course of action. An economy may slow and need an incentive to pick up, and the economy may be exasperated and only need incentive to be moderated so more is made of the less created by a stable rate of flow. Improvement is not always dictated by the same motions as a reaction. 



    I don't think you're disagreeing with my view. Government has a duty to protect the rights of its citizens. If it protects rights of some citizens and not others, then it is not a fair government as this would effectively make some citizens lesser than others.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3208 Pts
    @MayCaesar

    Would you consider democracy, liberalism, or conservatism to be ideologies?
    Democracy is a system of societal organisation and decision-making. Liberalism and conservatism are ideologies. While there can be a clause in the Constitution, say, declaring the country a "liberal democratic republic", the government should not endorse liberalism as an ideology, and certainly should not give any benefits to citizens championing it or punish those who champion opposing ideologies.
    SkepticalOne
  • TKDBTKDB 538 Pts
    @SkepticalOne

    How might any Catholic school make your way of life lesser than how it already is?

    How would any Religious individual saying a prayer in a Public School system, make your way of life lesser than how it already is?

    Tell me, does any non Religious individual have a way to make a Religious individuals life any lesser, than it already is?


    @SkepticalOne

    All that I see, is the CONTEXT of your own non Religious mind, exercising a self rationalized monopoly, around a Real World question, that expands the entirety of the United States, and you don't apparently, cannot come up with an answer for the CONTEXT of the question, that I posed to you?

    Again, can you attempt to explain to this forum, why the anti Religious crowd, hasn't gone after the Catholic School system in the United States?

    If you're going to keep pushing the message, about Equality like you're doing, why the hesitation to not utilize, the Separation of Church and State Law, to purge Religion, out of the Catholic School system?

    If we're going to talk about pure equality and fairness, then why hasn't ANY non Religious individual, on the internet for years now, failed to go about purging the Catholic School system, with the non Religious tool called the Separation of Church and State Law tool? 

    Or go after the plethora of Religious Colleges across the United States, with the same Separation of Church and State Law, and purge Religion, out of those Religious Colleges?

    You've been reiterating about Equality, when it appears to me, that there's a lot of Inequality going on, when there are Catholic Schools, and Religious Colleges, across the country, awaiting to be purged of Religion?  

    "In this context, a citation would be a quote of mine from this thread demonstrating a "pro-atheist" bias. You've not provided a citation, sir.

    As for the "Catholic school system", I assume you are referring to private schools. This is not government and the separation of church and state (ie. Government) is not applicable so long as government stays out of the church's business. Get it?"

    And no I don't get your non Religious rationalizations.

    But being that the context of your non Religious rationalizations are fascinating.
  • @TKDB

    How might any Catholic school make your way of life lesser than how it already is?
    How is it you have come to the conclusion I believe a Catholic school makes my life lesser?

    How would any Religious individual saying a prayer in a Public School system, make your way of life lesser than how it already is?

    What makes you think I believe someone exercising a personal religious ritual makes my life lesser?

    Tell me, does any non Religious individual have a way to make a Religious individuals life any lesser, than it already is?

    How does equal treatment of religious and non-religious by government harm or benefit religious individuals differently than non-religious individuals?

    piloteer
  • TKDBTKDB 538 Pts
    @SkepticalOne

    You stated this to @John_C_879

    "Government has a duty to protect the rights of its citizens."

    "If it protects rights of some citizens and not others, then it is not a fair government as this would effectively make some citizens lesser than others."

    I'm curious, as to where your Government involved evidence, is to support your hypothetical statement?


    @SkepticalOne


    You like to engage in hypothetical questions in regards to your non Religious statements:

    "How is it you have come to the conclusion I believe a Catholic school makes my life lesser?"

    "What makes you think I believe someone exercising a personal religious ritual makes my life lesser?"

    "How does equal treatment of religious and non-religious by government harm or benefit religious individuals differently than non-religious individuals?"

    All hypothetical questions, that you apparently like to help side manage, your non Religious stances with?

    And I call the Separation of Church and State Law tool, that some Atheists have publicly used via the Court Room system in the United States, to purge Religion out of the Public School system?

    It's an Atheist utilized anti Religious Discrimination privilege tactic.

    And what's amazing is not one Atheist is going to go out of their way to hire an Attorney to go use the same Separation of Church and State Law tool, to purge Religion out of the Catholic School system, or out of the Religious Colleges across the country, right?

    The Atheist crowd, in the early 60's didn't mind raising a stink when it comes to the Public School system, and purging HARMLESS prayer out of the same Public School system, because the Atheist enriched point was made then.

    But when it comes to TREATING all of the Catholic School systems, and the Religious Colleges, with the same Atheist Equality standards, the Atheist crowd apparently likes to keep its Atheist Equality standards, at the Public School system level, and isn't going to bother the Catholic School system, or the Religious College, with the same "Purging," Separation of Church and State Law tool now is it?

  • TKDB said:
    @SkepticalOne

    You stated this to @John_C_879

    "Government has a duty to protect the rights of its citizens."

    "If it protects rights of some citizens and not others, then it is not a fair government as this would effectively make some citizens lesser than others."

    I'm curious, as to where your Government involved evidence, is to support your hypothetical statement?


    @SkepticalOne


    You like to engage in hypothetical questions in regards to your non Religious statements:

    "How is it you have come to the conclusion I believe a Catholic school makes my life lesser?"

    "What makes you think I believe someone exercising a personal religious ritual makes my life lesser?"

    "How does equal treatment of religious and non-religious by government harm or benefit religious individuals differently than non-religious individuals?"

    All hypothetical questions, that you apparently like to help side manage, your non Religious stances with?

    And I call the Separation of Church and State Law tool, that some Atheists have publicly used via the Court Room system in the United States, to purge Religion out of the Public School system?

    It's an Atheist utilized anti Religious Discrimination privilege tactic.

    And what's amazing is not one Atheist is going to go out of their way to hire an Attorney to go use the same Separation of Church and State Law tool, to purge Religion out of the Catholic School system, or out of the Religious Colleges across the country, right?

    The Atheist crowd, in the early 60's didn't mind raising a stink when it comes to the Public School system, and purging HARMLESS prayer out of the same Public School system, because the Atheist enriched point was made then.

    But when it comes to TREATING all of the Catholic School systems, and the Religious Colleges, with the same Atheist Equality standards, the Atheist crowd apparently likes to keep its Atheist Equality standards, at the Public School system level, and isn't going to bother the Catholic School system, or the Religious College, with the same "Purging," Separation of Church and State Law tool now is it?

    Don't know what it has to do with me....but Nice rant!



  • I don't think you're disagreeing with my view. Government has a duty to protect the rights of its citizens. If it protects rights of some citizens and not others, then it is not a fair government as this would effectively make some citizens lesser than others.
    Correct, I do not disagree, I am trying to determine a way that the basic idea shared covers the most ground for its purpose to be realized by the many who must understand it. A governing body has an obligation to protect a right that holds a united state between people. The following answer to TKDB might address part of the point I am trying to make with you.

    TKDB said: I'm curious, as to where your Government involved evidence is to support your hypothetical statement government has a duty to protect the rights of its citizens.

    @TKDB ;
    Simplified governing has a duty to preserve right, governing has a duty to explain right.
    The answers to this question is really a lot simpler then you make it out to be. It's not hypothetical and the evidence comes from the state of governing itself. There will always be a portion of people who feel that a right found by basic law and history, for the people is wrong therefor must be complex. 
     
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3208 Pts
    edited March 19
    @TKDB

    I think you are confused here a bit. Removal of prayers from schools is not an anti-religious act; it is a pro-neutrality act. We do not have atheist rituals at schools, do we? Then why should we have Christian rituals, or Muslim rituals, or other rituals, if impartiality is the goal? Your argument would be valid if atheists did not just want to remove prayers from schools, but also to replace them with some sort of atheist recitations or something - but that is not what people want.

    Presence of Christian prayers at schools and absence of other prayers means that Christianity is a privileged ideology. Removing this privilege does not constitute an anti-religious act, just like, say, removing anti-black segregation laws does not constitute an anti-white act.

    Now, I personally am okay with prayers at schools, as long as we have school choice, and/or as long as those prayers are optional. And even if not, it is not such a big deal for me: I am against forced prayers at public schools with no school choice, but it is not something I am going to care about deeply. However, the principle does not change: impartiality requires lack of privileges for any particular religion, and that is not the case nowadays in the US.
    SkepticalOne
  • edited March 20
    @TKDB
    As I have already explained, the “Catholic School System” is PRIVATE. Which means that they are NOT publicly funded. Same with the colleges. Smh
    Not every quote you read on the internet is true- Abraham Lincoln
  • TKDBTKDB 538 Pts
    @MayCaesar

    Religion is harmless.

    Prayer is harmless.

    Yet, the below from you comes across as nothing more than anti Religious paranoia:

    "I think you are confused here a bit. Removal of prayers from schools is not an anti-religious act; it is a pro-neutrality act. We do not have atheist rituals at schools, do we? Then why should we have Christian rituals, or Muslim rituals, or other rituals, if impartiality is the goal? Your argument would be valid if atheists did not just want to remove prayers from schools, but also to replace them with some sort of atheist recitations or something - but that is not what people want."

    "Presence of Christian prayers at schools and absence of other prayers means that Christianity is a privileged ideology. Removing this privilege does not constitute an anti-religious act, just like, say, removing anti-black segregation laws does not constitute an anti-white act."

    "Now, I personally am okay with prayers at schools, as long as we have school choice, and/or as long as those prayers are optional. And even if not, it is not such a big deal for me: I am against forced prayers at public schools with no school choice, but it is not something I am going to care about deeply. However, the principle does not change: impartiality requires lack of privileges for any particular religion, and that is not the case nowadays in the US."


  • TKDBTKDB 538 Pts
    @AmericanFurryBoy

    Religion is harmless.

    Prayer is harmless.

    I don't have to shake my head to understand your bias anti Religious rhetoric.

    "As I have already explained, the “Catholic School System” is PRIVATE. Which means that they are NOT publicly funded. Same with the colleges. Smh"

    You've explained plenty.

    And the use of the Separation of Church and State Law tool, is how the U.S. based Atheists utilized their Atheist Privilege, by purging harmless prayer, out of THE PUBLIC school system, so that those same Atheists, could have their pro Atheist way, with Public school system.

    Show me ANY VIDEO evidence, where harmless prayer in a Public School, caused any kind of hypothetical harm, to any non Religious individual? 

    AmericanFurryBoy
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3208 Pts
    @TKDB

    Where did I ever talk about harm of religion? I was talking about impartiality. If I am wrong about something, you are welcome to point it out, otherwise your post has nothing to do with what I said.

    What "anti-religious paranoia", when I was simply talking about definitions? I even said that I am okay with prayer at schools. I think you just have some sort of disproportional emotional response to every criticism of the status-quo in this regard.
    SkepticalOneAmericanFurryBoy
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