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God's moral standard is objective and thus perfect....right?
in Religion

By DeeDee 2174 Pts

‘Beautiful‘  examples of the Christians gods take on morality ......


From Dan Barker freedom from religion .......

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Here is my list of the 10 worst Old Testament passages, in reverse order. My main criterion is that this list show us something about the character of God. All believers admit that the bible contains some stomach-churning tales, but these examples reveal the LORD himself commanding, committing or condoning the brutality. Richard Dawkins was not exaggerating when he called God a capriciously malevolent bully.

10. God destroys a good family 'for no reason.'

God made a bet with Satan that Job, a good and blameless man, would remain faithful even if he killed his children and ruined his life. Here we see God indicting himself for the crime, openly confessing that he destroyed a family "for no reason."

"The Lord said to Satan, 'Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on the Earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and turns away from evil. He still persists in his integrity, although you incited me against him, to destroy him for no reason.' " (Job 2:3 New Revised Standard Bible)

9. God destroys the fetuses of those who do not worship him.

This is not the only feticidal passage in the bible, but it is the worst:

"You shall acknowledge no God but me. . . . You are destroyed, Israel. . . . The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:4, 9, 16 New International Version)

8. God approves the massacre of a peaceful people so one of his tribes could have a place to live.

Most believers think God destroyed the Canaanites because they were depraved and immoral, although the bible does not make that claim. They were killed — and labeled "evil" and "wicked" — simply because they did not worship him. Here is a group of people who did nothing wrong. They were "at peace and secure," but they had to be eliminated.

"And in those days the tribe of the Danites was seeking a place of their own where they might settle, because they had not yet come into an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. . . . Then they said to [the priest], 'Please inquire of God to learn whether our journey will be successful.' The priest answered them, 'Go in peace. Your journey has the Lord's approval.' . . . Then they took what Micah had made, and his priest, and went on to Laish, against a people at peace and secure. They attacked them with the sword and burned down their city. . . . The Danites rebuilt the city and settled there." (Judges 18:1–28 NIV)

The Canaanites were not the evildoers. The Israelites were the invaders!

7. Babies are slaughtered and wives raped.

The murderous deity deemed human life to be worthless, placing his own megalomaniacal glory above human values. Here is one of the worst examples:

"See, the day of the Lord is coming — a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger. . . . I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty. . . . Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives violated." (Isaiah 13:9–16 NIV)

6. A mixed-race couple is murdered by a godly priest to keep God's people pure.

The righteous priest Phinehas murdered a loving couple for the crime of miscegenation. Then he was praised by God and rewarded for the hate crime with a perpetual priesthood for keeping the nation racially pure.

"Just then one of the Israelites came and brought a Midianite woman into his family, in the sight of Moses and in the sight of the whole congregation of the Israelites. When Phinehas, son of Eleazar, son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he got up and left the congregation. Taking a spear in his hand, he went after the Israelite man into the tent, and pierced the two of them, the Israelite and the woman, through the belly. So the plague was stopped among the people of Israel. The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 'Phinehas, son of Eleazar, son of Aaron the priest, has turned back my wrath from the Israelites by manifesting such zeal among them on my behalf that in my jealousy I did not consume the Israelites. Therefore say, "I hereby grant him my covenant of peace. It shall be for him and for his descendants after him a covenant of perpetual priesthood, because he was zealous for his God, and made atonement for the Israelites.' '" (Numbers 25:6–13 NRSV)

5. A daughter is burned as an acceptable sacrifice to God.

General Jephthah made a vow with God in order to defeat the enemy. When Jephthah won the war, God received his hundred pounds of flesh.

"And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: 'If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.' . . . When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! . . . After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed." (Judges 11:30–39 NIV)

After burning his daughter, Jephthah was rewarded with a prestigious judgeship and was later buried with honor.

4. The cannibalistic God makes people eat human flesh.

There are nine passages in the Old Testament where God makes cannibalistic threats. Here is the worst one:

"And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." (Leviticus 26:27–29 King James Version)

3. God threatens rape, then takes credit for it.

This passage was new to me, and it blew me away. I guess I had only read it before in the King James Version, where the sexual molestation is not obvious. Here it is in the NRSV, where the Israelites were asking why they were being attacked by the Babylonians:

"Hear and give ear; do not be haughty, for the Lord has spoken. . . . And if you say in your heart, 'Why have these things come upon me?' it is for the greatness of your iniquity that your skirts are lifted up, and you are violated . . . because you have forgotten me and trusted in lies. I myself will lift up your skirts over your face, and your shame will be seen." (Jeremiah 13:15–26 NRSV)

"Skirts lifted up" is sexual assault. "Violate" is rape. The King James Version has the quaint "heels made bare," which obscures the sexual assault.

Notice that the "iniquity" for which they were being raped was not immorality or depravity; it was simply because "you have forgotten me."

2. God threatens sexual molestation.

The Lord will harass attractive uppity women by exposing their private parts.

"Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts." (Isaiah 3:16–17 KJV)

The New International Version covers up this embarrassing passage with "make their scalps bald" in place of "discover their secret parts [Hebrew: poth = vagina]." Other translations are more honest: The Orthodox Jewish Bible has "lay bare their nakedness," Amplified Bible "stripped naked," Complete Jewish Bible "expose their private parts," Common English Version "uncover their private parts," and Living Bible "expose their nakedness for all to see." Even if "daughters of Zion" is a metaphor for Israel, it is a metaphor of sexual assault.

1. God wants you to be happy to dash babies against the rocks.

I have always thought this was the worst verse in the bible, and my opinion remains unchanged.

"O daughter Babylon, you devastator! Happy shall they be who pay you back what you have done to us! Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock!"(Psalm 137:8–9 NRSV)

God was not merely saying that regrettable collateral damage might occur during wartime. He said believers should be happy — some translations say "blessed" — to kill innocent babies of those who are keeping you from worshipping your own god.

PlaffelvohfenAlofRIOakTownA
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Arguments

  • ethang5ethang5 238 Pts
    @Dee

    Lol. Everyone's muted me, but your thread dies of loneliness? Funny.

    God's moral standard is objective and thus perfect....right?

    Wrong. God's standard being objective has nothing to do with God being perfect.

    You've posted yet another thread that boils down to, "I don't like God's standard."

    No one cares that you don't personally like God's standard. And how many times will you tell us the same thing?

    You don't like God's standard. You think yours is better. We get it. We disagree.
    LukeQLD
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @ethang5 ;

    I see you’re desperately trying to post a no doubt typical hate filled rant little realizing you’re on perma mute as I’m following the majority of site members by muting you until you learn to at least state something coherent without flying into a rage .....bye now 
    PlaffelvohfenxlJ_dolphin_473ZeusAres42LukeQLD
  • God's morality is certainly questionable. This is something that transcends faiths as well. God permits tremendous suffering on a daily basis, on the grounds that it's apparently good for us. God allows children to die from horrible diseases, in pain and distress, because....?! 
    AlofRI
  • ethang5ethang5 238 Pts
    .....bye now
    You've told me "bye" so many times I suspect you don't want to leave.

    No one has me on mute, you especially.

    You lied. I posted the email by Aaron showing you lied. You're angry when you should be contrite. Lying here again will not change that.

    You lied. You lied repeatedly. No one forced you to lie. Be angry at yourself.
    PlaffelvohfenLukeQLD
  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 1443 Pts
    God's moral standard is based on no other than that of the Authors of the Bible and their own concepts.
    AlofRIPlaffelvohfenLukeQLD









  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @ZeusAres42

    Ask a Christian would they murder , maim or rape if there was no god they would have to concede “ no of course not “ proving morality has nothing to do with a god or gods and is totally subjective 
    AlofRIPlaffelvohfenLukeQLD
  • ethang5ethang5 238 Pts
    @DarthTimon

    God's morality is certainly questionable.
    So question it. No one is stopping you are they?

    This is something that transcends faiths as well. God permits tremendous suffering on a daily basis, on the grounds that it's apparently good for us.

    Wait. How do you know on what grounds God permits suffering?

    God allows children to die from horrible diseases, in pain and distress, because....?!

    You're jumping ahead of your argument. Why is it God's duty to stop people from suffering? You seem to simply assume it.


    And you just implied it was because God thinks its good for us, now you're asking for another answer to the one YOU supplied? So which is it? Do you or do you not know why?


    LukeQLD
  • AlofRIAlofRI 733 Pts
    ethang5 said:
    @DarthTimon

    God's morality is certainly questionable.
    So question it. No one is stopping you are they?

    This is something that transcends faiths as well. God permits tremendous suffering on a daily basis, on the grounds that it's apparently good for us.

    Wait. How do you know on what grounds God permits suffering?

    God allows children to die from horrible diseases, in pain and distress, because....?!

    You're jumping ahead of your argument. Why is it God's duty to stop people from suffering? You seem to simply assume it.


    And you just implied it was because God thinks its good for us, now you're asking for another answer to the one YOU supplied? So which is it? Do you or do you not know why?


    I'm SO glad I'm not a Christian, I wouldn't be able to answer those questions either. Or a Catholic or a Jew or a Muslim, they seem to be equal opportunity questions with no opportune answers .... that make any sense, that is. I can't think of a reason to "worship" someone/thing with a reputation for cruelty. An entity that demands homage no matter what! I will vote against a similar being in November ... God willing.  o:)
    PlaffelvohfenDeeZeusAres42
  • ethang5ethang5 238 Pts
    @AlofRI

    You have a rich fantasy life.

    I'm SO glad I'm not a Christian, I wouldn't be able to answer those questions either.
    Even as an anti-theist, you can't answer questions that contain false assumptions inside them. Your "gladness" is a non-sequitur.

    ...Or a Catholic or a Jew or a Muslim, they seem to be equal opportunity questions with no opportune answers ....
    Questions with false assumptions inside of them are that way. The religious belief of the person does not matter to the fairness of the question. But you want the details and context hidden right?

    ...that make any sense, that is.
    That is the whole reason for fake questions like this. They are designed to be too fake to answer honestly.

    I can't think of a reason to "worship" someone/thing with a reputation for cruelty.
    I'm a conservative, so I do not judge others based on "reputations" but on character. But I daresay that the idea that God is "cruel" is a little on the loony fringe. Who makes that "reputation"? Certainly not most normal people.

    An entity that demands homage no matter what! I will vote against a similar being in November ... God willing.
    And you will again experience the sharp and sudden impact with reality you felt in 2016. No amount of progressive liberalism will protect you from reality.
    PlaffelvohfenAlofRILukeQLD
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    edited June 16
    @AlofRI

     Sorry Al .........you're going to hell for refusing to let Jesus Christ save you.

    What’s wrong with you?  It’s obvious you don’t want to be saved and spend eternity constantly thanking god for being great , remember how much fun Heaven is no gambling , smoking , loose women or all day boozing sessions ......there’s a name for that  and it ain’t Heaven .......
    AlofRI
  • AlofRIAlofRI 733 Pts
    @ethang5
    You said: I'm a conservative so I do not judge others based on "reputation", but on character."  

    I'm a liberal so I judge people on BOTH reputation AND character. Since the current occupier of the White House has a YUGE negative in BOTH categories, voting for him seems "a little on the loony fringe" to me. If one can't see the bad character with a bad reputation ... in sync, it's not a YUGE stretch to find that the same person can't recognize cruelty when it is apparent, conservatively speaking. :smirk:   Multiple stories of genocide waged for a lack of following "orders", or "killing firstborn", or  "turning a woman to stone" ... cause she didn't do as she was told, sounds kind of cruel to me. Especially the wife of "a loyal and adoring friend". I guess I won't be changing parties soon.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • ethang5 said:
    @DarthTimon

    God's morality is certainly questionable.
    So question it. No one is stopping you are they?

    This is something that transcends faiths as well. God permits tremendous suffering on a daily basis, on the grounds that it's apparently good for us.

    Wait. How do you know on what grounds God permits suffering?

    God allows children to die from horrible diseases, in pain and distress, because....?!

    You're jumping ahead of your argument. Why is it God's duty to stop people from suffering? You seem to simply assume it.


    And you just implied it was because God thinks its good for us, now you're asking for another answer to the one YOU supplied? So which is it? Do you or do you not know why?


    I believe I was indeed questioning God's morality when I referred to permitting tremendous suffering, that was implicit in my original post.

    As to what grounds, is it not the Christian argument that we are to suffer in this life, to cleanse ourselves of sin and so forth? Is this not in fact the argument put forward by Judaism and Islam as well? 

    And why shouldn't God do something about the widespread suffering on this earth? Why do children die from horrible illnesses? Why does an omnipotent, omnipresent being, who therefore has tremendous power, do nothing? Perhaps you can supply a valid reason for God's inaction?
    PlaffelvohfenDeeAlofRI
  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 1443 Pts

    You know, I've always tried to see things from your point of view but no matter how hard I try I still can't shove my head that far up my rear.
    PlaffelvohfenDeeAlofRI









  • ethang5ethang5 238 Pts
    @AlofRI ;

    I'm a conservative so I do not judge others based on "reputation", but on character."  
    I'm a liberal so I judge people on BOTH reputation AND character.
    I know. Thank God that Black's, homosexuals, and Jews do not have you as judge.

    Since the current occupier of the White House has a YUGE negative in BOTH categories, voting for him seems "a little on the loony fringe" to me.
    TDS.

    If one can't see the bad character with a bad reputation ... in sync, it's not a YUGE stretch to find that the same person can't recognize cruelty when it is apparent, conservatively speaking. smirk 
    Yes. Liberals also want to convict people on potential possibilities instead of facts. Good we have a constitution to stop that bit of liberal silliness.
    Multiple stories of genocide waged for a lack of following "orders", or "killing firstborn", or  "turning a woman to stone" ... cause she didn't do as she was told, sounds kind of cruel to me.
    The nerve of God, not basing His morality on how things "sound" to you!
    Especially the wife of "a loyal and adoring friend". I guess I won't be changing parties soon.
    Lol! You talk as if I'm campaigning for Trump. He doesn't need your vote, and will win in 2020 without you, as he did in 2016.
    AlofRILukeQLD
  • ethang5ethang5 238 Pts
    @DarthTimon
    I believe I was indeed questioning God's morality when I referred to permitting tremendous suffering, that was implicit in my original post.
    I know. You also permit suffering you could stop, do you "question" your morality too, or does your double standard not cover you?

    My question was, "Why is God responsible for stopping your suffering?"
    As to what grounds, is it not the Christian argument that we are to suffer in this life, to cleanse ourselves of sing and so forth?
    No. It is not.
    Is this not in fact the argument put forward by Judaism and Islam as well? 
    I am neither a Jew or a Muslim, but don't think this is so. But in either case, I defend only Christian doctrine.
    And why shouldn't God do something about the widespread suffering on this earth?
    The question I asked was, "Why should He?" It's your assumption, do you have an answer?
    Why do children die from horrible illnesses? Why does an omnipotent, omnipresent being, who therefore has tremendous power, do nothing?
    If He does nothing, we wouldn't be talking about Him right now. You're still trying to go ahead of yourself. Why do you think God is responsible for easing your suffering?
    Perhaps you can supply a valid reason for God's inaction?

    As soon as you give a valid reason why you think God should act.

    God is not inactive, you only think He is because for some unknown reason, you think He should be your magic genie servant who eases your suffering while you have no obligation to Him whatsoever.

    LukeQLD
  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 1443 Pts
    ethang5 said:
    @ZeusAres42


    Second, when you run out of intelligent responses, resist the urge to post stupidity, it hurts your position.



    You should take your own advice. And I know that was a thing but I don't care, and the difference between you and me; I know when I'm saying something and when I'm not.









  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 1443 Pts
    ethang5 said:
    @ZeusAres42


    Second, when you run out of intelligent responses, resist the urge to post stupidity, it hurts your position.



    You should take your own advice. And I know that was a thing but I don't care, and the difference between you and me; I know when I'm saying something and when I'm not.









  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 1443 Pts
    ethang5 said:
    @ZeusAres42


    Second, when you run out of intelligent responses, resist the urge to post stupidity, it hurts your position.



    You should take your own advice. And I know that was a thing but I don't care, and that's the difference between you and me; I know when I'm saying something and when I'm not.









  • ZeusAres42ZeusAres42 1443 Pts
    edited June 18
    ethang5 said:
    @ZeusAres42


    Second, when you run out of intelligent responses, resist the urge to post stupidity, it hurts your position.



    You should take your own advice. And I know that was a silly thing to say but I don't care, and that's the difference between you and me; I know when I'm saying something silly and when I'm not. ;)
    PlaffelvohfenDeeAlofRI









  • First of all, all of the verses mentioned are in the old testament.  The New Testament introduced the new covenant--a new way by which to live.  In the Old testament, the Israelites had to destroy their enemies because if they didn't the sins of their enemies would spread to them.  This actually happened several times the Bible.  The Israelites adopted the immoral actions of their enemies, and what resulted was they turned from God and forgot all that He had done for them. 
     Other verses you mentioned where not actions of God but simply actions that God did not hinder people from doing.  
    As for the shame of women that is done to them as justice for their sins  Ro 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    Ro 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    Also the term to be made naked does not always mean nakedness of the body, but also nakedness of the soul.  In other words, God will one day open to all the ugliness of their souls.
    I think the biggest reason why some of what God does is to us incomprehensible is because we do not understand the true evilness of sin.  It changes the soul creating vile everything that God created in us to be perfect.  Much of what God did was to destroy the evil that could not be undone in order to keep that which was clean clean.  Like the amputation of a leg to save the rest of the body.  Much of what happened in the Old Testament was sad, but was also necessary.  We do not know why God does what He does for the future, but we do know about the past.  All of what God paved the way for "His only begotten Son", and it was through God's sacrificing His own Son that we can be saved. 
    God is love; but He is also righteousness.  He is the ultimate judge, and He cannot let sin go unpunished!   
    PlaffelvohfenAlofRILukeQLD
  • @redeemedofgod ;

    So you are saying that god's standards for what is morally right and wrong changed from the old testament to the new testament?

    Wouldn't that by definition mean that god's moral standard is not objective?
    PlaffelvohfenAlofRI
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • AlofRIAlofRI 733 Pts
    @redeemedofgod said:
    "God is love; but he is also righteousness. He is the ultimate judge, and he cannot let sin go unpunished.

    Mr. Trump, you are screwed!  :warning:
  • @Happy_Killbot NO.  Circumstances changed from the new and old testament.  In the old testament there was no sacrifice that could pay for sin; thus no one could be free from it.  However, in the New Testament there was a sacrifice.  Animal sacrifices where no longer needed and sins could be blotted out.
    \  @AlofRI I'm sorry I don't see how.
  • @redeemedofgod ;
    @Happy_Killbot NO.  Circumstances changed from the new and old testament.  In the old testament there was no sacrifice that could pay for sin; thus no one could be free from it.  However, in the New Testament there was a sacrifice.  Animal sacrifices where no longer needed and sins could be blotted out.
    \  @AlofRI I'm sorry I don't see how.
    Just to clarify here, are you saying that sacrifices specificaly, were never required?

    Why did god demand them if there was no point since they were not sufficient to make up for sin? What about other things, such as foods that were forbidden like pork and shellfish, or certain laws that no longer applied?

    If there are two standards, then doesn't this imply that the old standards were never standards to begin with? I don't think changing circumstances can possibly change anything here.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Happy_Killbot
    The animal sacrifices were to appease God's wrath, but they didn't pay for sins.  Only a perfect man could take the place of a sinful person.
    The old standards were enough to appease God's wrath till the coming of His Son.
    Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 

    Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. 

  • @Happy_Killbot
    Animal sacrifices where just to appease God's wrath.  Only a perfect man could take the punishment for a sinful person.  
    God accepted the animals as an alternative until the coming of His son.  Yes, God actually told Peter to eat several animals that were once considered unclean in order to show him that a new covenant was made
    Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 

    Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. 
    Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 

  • @redeemedofgod ;

    This doesn't answer the question though. If the god of the old testament does demand sacrifices, then why doesn't the god of the new testament?

    Isn't that a change in character, and therefore a change in moral standard thus demonstrating that god's morals are not objective?

    It's almost like they are different gods...
    PlaffelvohfenDeeAlofRI
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Happy_Killbot
    The sacrifice of animals could only appease the wrath of God for a certain amount of time.  They were not enough to take away sins; neither were they enough to be a permanent sacrifice.  However, the sacrifice of Jesus, a perfect man, was enough to permanently pay for all of the past, present, and future sins of all who believe.  All of the sins of those who believe were placed on Jesus when God poured His wrath out on His only Son.
  • @Happy_Killbot
    God made a covenant which the Israelites broke many times.  So He simply made a new one--a better one.
  • @redeemedofgod ;
    @Happy_Killbot
    God made a covenant which the Israelites broke many times.  So He simply made a new one--a better one.
    Do you see the problem here?

    If god can create a new covenant, then god's moral standard is not objective. Rather, it is subjective the same way you can change your mind about say, what foods you like to eat. If god's morals were objective, then he could not change them.
    AlofRI
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Happy_Killbot
    The sacrifice of animals could only appease the wrath of God for a certain amount of time.  They were not enough to take away sins; neither were they enough to be a permanent sacrifice.  However, the sacrifice of Jesus, a perfect man, was enough to permanently pay for all of the past, present, and future sins of all who believe.  All of the sins of those who believe were placed on Jesus when God poured His wrath out on His only Son.
    Quite a bloodthirsty entity... All I understand from this, is that this god appears to specifically require blood for some reason... I tend to stay away from anything that requires human sacrifice...
    AlofRI
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @Happy_Killbot
    God didn't change His mind.  He simply "upgraded".  He made a covenant that was good, but the Isrealites broke it.  So, He made one that was great! 
    God had a plan all along to pave the way for His Son.  The new covenant was in His mind long before the first was broken.  I have to sign-off for the night, but I hope to continue in the morning.
  • @Plaffelvohfen
    I agree that it doesn't sound good, but it does make sense.  God doesn't want to kill anyone, but as the perfect judge He must.  It is the only way that sins can be payed for. Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    I don't like the idea of a murderer being hanged either, but that is justice.  God simply cannot just say, "forget it".  So, because He loved us, He gave us His Son.  He made another way.  Almost a way to cheat the system, but a way that was 100% legal. I have to sign-off for the night, but I hope to continue in the morning.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • @redeemedofgod ;
    @Happy_Killbot
    God didn't change His mind.  He simply "upgraded".  He made a covenant that was good, but the Isrealites broke it.  So, He made one that was great! 
    God had a plan all along to pave the way for His Son.  The new covenant was in His mind long before the first was broken.  I have to sign-off for the night, but I hope to continue in the morning.
    You are going to have to explain how that is not a change, remember in order for something to be objective it has to be true regardless of what people think or believe.

    This indicates that god made modifications to morality thus it is not objective by definition.
    Dee
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @redeemedofgod
    I agree that it doesn't sound good, but it does make sense.  
    Sorry it doesn't... Unless you are talking about a blood / death cult, then sure it would...
    God doesn't want to kill anyone, but as the perfect judge He must. 
    What? Why would a perfect judge need to kill anyone if he doesn't want to? Where does that "ought to kill" come from that compels him to? 
    It is the only way that sins can be payed for. Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; 
    As decreed by...??  A bloodthirsty deity...  You are confirming my points in favor of Christianity being a death cult...
    but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    You clearly have not examined the concept of eternity if you consider it a gift... 
    I don't like the idea of a murderer being hanged either, but that is justice.  God simply cannot just say, "forget it".
    Jesus was a murderer???  Well that's a first...
    So, because He loved us, He gave us His Son.  
    I tend to stay away from people who think that love is best expressed by killing anyone, more so their child...
    DeeAlofRI
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot

    It’s a good point and one I’ve brought up several times in the past as you rightly point out it’s total change in gods moral character and not one Christian so far has addressed the challenge 
  • @Plaffelvohfen
    I was not speaking of Jesus when I was referring to a murderer!
    See my last post in "is God real"
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @redeemedofgod


    I agree that it doesn't sound good, but it does make sense

    No it doesn’t 


     God doesn't want to kill anyone, but as the perfect judge He must.

    So he kills against his own will?  I’m not “perfect “ but I would refuse to sentence a person to death , hows that work?


      It is the only way that sins can be payed for. Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


    Right so god wants vengeance?

    I don't like the idea of a murderer being hanged either, but that is justice

    No it’s not in any civilized country anyway 

     God simply cannot just say, "forget it".  

    Why not ? Humans forgive all the time 

    So, because He loved us, He gave us His Son.  

    Your definition of a “loving father “ is one who kills? 

    He made another way.  Almost a way to cheat the system, but a way that was 100% legal

    “Cheat the system “ LOL .....He gave us his son who’s ”great sacrifice “ was to die for a few days and get eternal life , he died for our sins yet we are punished for them in the next life ....non that’s a cheat 


    PlaffelvohfenAlofRI
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @redeemedofgod

    The sacrifice of animals could only appease the wrath of God for a certain amount of time. 

    How does a god who is meant to be a loving god happen to be in a continuous state of wrath? He apparently knows the future and knew if things that were to happen so why is he annoyed at what he knew was coming ? 


    They were not enough to take away sins; neither were they enough to be a permanent sacrifice.  

    Right , so a continuous supply of animals must be slaughtered to keep gods rage in check and that still not enough ?


    However, the sacrifice of Jesus, a perfect man, was enough to permanently pay for all of the past, present, and future sins of all who believe. 

    So why are they judged and punished by god in the next life if all sin is payed for ? 

    All of the sins of those who believe were placed on Jesus when God poured His wrath out on His only Son.

    What sort of a monster put his rage on his son?  What you’re saying sounds like a story a couple of stoners  constructed whilst out of the head 
    PlaffelvohfenAlofRI
  • AlofRIAlofRI 733 Pts
    edited June 19
    @Happy_Killbot NO.  Circumstances changed from the new and old testament.  In the old testament there was no sacrifice that could pay for sin; thus no one could be free from it.  However, in the New Testament there was a sacrifice.  Animal sacrifices where no longer needed and sins could be blotted out.
    \  @AlofRI I'm sorry I don't see how.
    This is how. Righteousness has been sacrificed by the IMPOTUS and sin is simply a byproduct of this man's life, adultery being only a small part of it. If this individual was a Democratic President not ONE Republican would accept him. He is ANYTHING but a conservative, likes NO foreign leader who is not "strong" against his/her own people. He covers for murderers and he USES religion as a TOOL, obviously NOT a belief.

    "For the wages of sin is death" ???? As I said, Trump doesn't stand a chance.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • ethang5ethang5 238 Pts
    @ZeusAres42

    You should take your own advice.
    I do. I don't post when there is nothing to say.
    And I know that was a thing but I don't care, and the difference between you and me; I know when I'm saying something and when I'm not.

    Lol. So you had to say it 3 times? If this was true, you wouldn't have made the last post as it was devoid of anything intelligent.

    You can know when you're saying something, just resist the urge to post something when you have nothing intelligent to say.

    Try not to post on emotion. Logic is better. Try it.

  • ethang5ethang5 238 Pts
    @AlofRI
    If this individual was a Democratic President not ONE Republican would accept him.

    Of course. If he were a  Democratic President, he would not have this sterling record on fulfilled promises, economic success, and common sense.

    The words "Republican" and "Democrat" MEAN things.

  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @AlofRI


    One more thing Al one of Trumps best buddies was notorious peadophile Jeffrey Epstein says it all really a truly despicable piece of garbage ......Of course his mainly Christian supporters think him the Messiah like the brainwashed sheeple they are 
  • AlofRIAlofRI 733 Pts
    ethang5 said:
    @AlofRI
    If this individual was a Democratic President not ONE Republican would accept him.

    Of course. If he were a  Democratic President, he would not have this sterling record on fulfilled promises, economic success, and common sense.

    The words "Republican" and "Democrat" MEAN things.

    A few days ago I printed a list of books (60+) that totally disagree with your statement. I strongly recommend one new title for your consideration .. if you dare.

    Title:  Too Much and Never Enough; How My Family Created the Worlds Most Dangerous Man. (And How Her Uncle Became THE Threat To The Worlds Health, Economic Security & Social Fabric). BY MARY TRUMP; PHD-Clinical Psychology and Donald Trump's only niece.

    That one is from "the horse's mouth", you might say. She was THERE to watch it all happen, and I suggest YOU were not. She certainly has the qualifications to analyze his behavior, and I suggest you do not. (Of course, I can't be sure). Still, this is not something anyone can ignore .... unless one wishes to ignore the TRUTH.

    I know of NO Democratic President with this type of "sterling record". I agree, this type of record "MEANS some-THING, and only a fool would ignore it.
  •  The cold hard truth is this: If you believe in God and you believe Him to be the creator of all things, including men and women, then His plan is perfect. The potter knows the clay and it's purpose. The artist knows the painting and it's meaning. A creation is defined and perfect by it's creator. You can dislike it. You can have your own opinion, but you can't label it as wrong. God created life and takes it away. He can do what He wants for His own reasons and He owes no one an explanation or apology. You can't speak to God's "state of mind" or his reasonings, but He has them. In the grand scheme of things, if a person believes in God, he or she knows that their purpose on this earth is to glorify Him. We die to this world and ourselves. We pray that His will is done and know that His will is perfect and cannot be judged by human standards. Believe or don't. Not everyone will. As a matter of fact, most people won't but on the day of judgement all knees will bow and then there will be no question. Jesus told us what the greatest commandment is and that is love. To love God and others more than yourself. Love is the foundation of Christianity. There is nothing immoral about that and only good stems from love. Evil has twisted it. Many people have done evil things in the name of Christianity but that is not reflective of the truth of the Gospel of Christ. 
    PlaffelvohfenDee
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @BrandyKnight

    Prove your god exists otherwise you’re just preaching 
    Plaffelvohfen
  •  That is the great thing about God. He does not need me to prove Him. He does not need me to make excuses for Him. Some people believe and some people don't and that is just how it is. Science has yet to prove that there was no divine creator and they certainly have had to adjust their hypothesis as time progresses. At the end of the day, on a human level, I cannot prove to you that there is a God any more than you can prove to me that there isn't one. I choose to respectfully appreciate your personal opinions and treat you with respect regardless. And from a Christian perspective, I do pray that one day you will. 
    PlaffelvohfenDee
  • DeeDee 2174 Pts
    @BrandyKnight

     That is the great thing about God. He does not need me to prove Him. He does not need me to make excuses for Him. Some people believe and some people don't and that is just how it is. 

    Do you believe in all other gods also?

    Science has yet to prove that there was no divine creator and they certainly have had to adjust their hypothesis as time progresses. 

    No it doesn’t actually as the claim is unfalsifiable like all such claims the burden of proof is on the believer to prove their claim which they cannot .

    How has Science adjusted it hypothesis?


    At the end of the day, on a human level, I cannot prove to you that there is a God any more than you can prove to me that there isn't one. 

    It’s not up to me to disprove a god it’s up to you to prove your god which you admit you cannot do 

    I choose to respectfully appreciate your personal opinions and treat you with respect regardless. And from a Christian perspective, I do pray that one day you will. 

    Likewise. From a rationalists perspective I hope you see the light some day 
    Plaffelvohfen
  • @BrandyKnight ;

    I can't prove that there are not invisible unicorns who always live just out of sight.

    I can't prove that any other gods, besides the one you believe in don't exist.

    I can't prove that the entire universe is not a simulation.

    I can't prove that anyone else besides me is not conscious.

    Why should I believe any of these things?
    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Happy_Killbot ;  True. That was my exact point. What you believe in and your reasons are up to you. I happen to believe in the Holy Bible and the men and women in it. It is still one of the best selling books in the world and still completely relevant today for those who study it. I have never seen a unicorn, but with God, all things are possible. The rest of your statements are contrary to the Bible so my personal beliefs on those go without saying. Science has yet to dissuade me, or anyone who is an honest person for that matter. But, if that day ever comes, I will have been wrong. If I end up being wrong, what hurt did my life do if I follow the lead of Jesus to the best of my ability?  He did not provoke or promote violence. He loved people. He supported people and He did not want people judging others. His lead was to be selfless and a servant to those who are in need, those who were sick and those who were without family, to name a few examples. I 
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