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Is Belief A Question Of Ignorance?

Debate Information

The "I" word seems to be bandied about a lot on the Religion forum from all sides of the argument. Sometimes "ignorance" is used as a defence or for want of anything better to think of saying but that is not being constructive.

I would say that some atheists are ignorant yet all theists are ignorant.

Allow me to explain.
Many atheists are so because they are apathetic to or hold a grudge towards religion, perhaps because of a bad experience or religious followers hounding them. They could be said to be ignorant because they lack an informed opinion.
Atheists and theist-to-atheist converts who have done objective research and arrived at a balanced, informed conclusion could not be called ignorant.
All theists, however, could quite rightly be labelled as ignorant.

Some may be ignorant not by choice because they are raised in ignorance, particularly in fundamentalist religious regimes where religious subjects have little or no access to material that may be contrary to their enforced doctrines.
In free world countries, theists choose to be ignorant in order to protect the perceived sanctity of their belief. Nearly all religious institutions will discourage followers from exposure to any scientific or factual material that may contradict their belief.
It is interesting to note that, research has shown that theists tend to have lower IQs than more informed atheists for the very reason that they have, by choice, limited their learning experiences.

Not to say that this is a bad thing, some Christian denominations, for example, preach the virtues of "everything they need to know is in the Bible". If that is how they wish to spend their lives that is entirely their decision.
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  • Swolliw said:
    The "I" word seems to be bandied about a lot on the Religion forum from all sides of the argument. Sometimes "ignorance" is used as a defence or for want of anything better to think of saying but that is not being constructive.

    I would say that some atheists are ignorant yet all theists are ignorant.

    Allow me to explain.
    Many atheists are so because they are apathetic to or hold a grudge towards religion, perhaps because of a bad experience or religious followers hounding them. They could be said to be ignorant because they lack an informed opinion.
    Atheists and theist-to-atheist converts who have done objective research and arrived at a balanced, informed conclusion could not be called ignorant.
    All theists, however, could quite rightly be labelled as ignorant.

    Some may be ignorant not by choice because they are raised in ignorance, particularly in fundamentalist religious regimes where religious subjects have little or no access to material that may be contrary to their enforced doctrines.
    In free world countries, theists choose to be ignorant in order to protect the perceived sanctity of their belief. Nearly all religious institutions will discourage followers from exposure to any scientific or factual material that may contradict their belief.
    It is interesting to note that, research has shown that theists tend to have lower IQs than more informed atheists for the very reason that they have, by choice, limited their learning experiences.

    Not to say that this is a bad thing, some Christian denominations, for example, preach the virtues of "everything they need to know is in the Bible". If that is how they wish to spend their lives that is entirely their decision.
    There are scientists, and there are wannabe scientists.  Most atheists are wannabe scientists.  They typically do not know their derrière from a hole in the ground when it comes to having a true foundation for their beliefs.  If ever there was such a thing as blind faith, you can certainly find it in the atheist wannabe scientist.  I ask atheists all the time for evidence for all sorts of claims they make.  I'm not sure I have ever seen one of these wannabees actually show a real piece of evidence of anything.  

    That said, I can answer your question.  Belief can certainly be directly related to ignorance.  Consider the wannabees I described above, who believe a scientific claim without actually understanding the evidence which is supposed to support their claim.  They will vehemently fight tooth and nail to protect their belief without ever seeing the supporting evidence, if any even exists, that supports their belief, simply because the claim they believe was stated "in the name of science", for some their belief is based in some sort of retribution against God.  It is the epitome of belief based in ignorance...believing something is true, simply because you want it to be true.

    There are many Christians and theists who do the same thing.

    Yet, belief can also be founded in something much stronger than ignorance, and that something is knowledge.  A person can acquire knowledge that is incomplete to the extent that there remains uncertainty with regard to a complete validation of the information in question, whether it be scientific or religious information, whatever the source might be. They will not accept the dogmas of religion.  Neither do they accept the dogmas of science at face value.  Instead, they look at all the information, they try to understand it the best they can, and they apply reason to try to figure out what makes sense to them.  

    I don't know if the Bible is true or not.  But I have come to a point where I find myself trusting it.  I see when I debate others on the subject that they cannot refute what the Bible says is true, whether from a historical perspective or a spiritual perspective.  I am finding I believe the Bible is true, and even from a very literal perspective.  I've found no one capable of showing that it isn't true.  While I am open to any evidence anyone might have to the contrary, my faith and therefore my belief that the Bible is true is not founded in ignorance, but in knowledge.


    Happy_KillbotxlJ_dolphin_473PlaffelvohfenWe_are_accountableAlofRI
  • @Sonofason ;
    There are scientists, and there are wannabe scientists.  Most atheists are wannabe scientists.  They typically do not know their derrière from a hole in the ground when it comes to having a true foundation for their beliefs
    Atheism isn't a belief by definition. Try again.
    SkepticalOnePlaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Sonofason ;
    There are scientists, and there are wannabe scientists.  Most atheists are wannabe scientists.  They typically do not know their derrière from a hole in the ground when it comes to having a true foundation for their beliefs
    Atheism isn't a belief by definition. Try again.
    I didn't mean to suggest that atheism is a belief.  The fact is, atheists have beliefs.  And I described those beliefs quite accurately
    Happy_KillbotxlJ_dolphin_473PlaffelvohfenWe_are_accountable
  • @Sonofason ;
    I didn't mean to suggest that atheism is a belief.  The fact is, atheists have beliefs.  And I described those beliefs quite accurately
    You are still wrong. Atheism is a philosophical position about the existence of god.

    By definition, it is not a belief. You said and I quote:
    "Most atheists are wannabe scientists. They typically do not know their derrière from a hole in the ground when it comes to having a true foundation for their beliefs."

    Atheism is a lack of belief in god, gods, or other mythical beings. So it is not possible for them to have a "foundation for their beliefs" because atheism doesn't entail belief thus there can be no foundation.

    Furthermore, you deliberately suggest that atheists have beliefs with this quote.

    Science =/= atheism. You can be an atheist and have nothing to do with science. You again, prove to have no clue what you are talking about.

    How about you go back and re-write that whole claim above if you actually want to be taken seriously. If you really mean to insist that "some atheists have beliefs therefore.." you are making a sweeping generalization that is nonsense.
    How about change "atheists" to "some people" in order to be consistent?
    DeeWe_are_accountable
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • DeeDee 2590 Pts
    edited September 9
    @Sonofason

    I ask atheists all the time for evidence for all sorts of claims they make


    Reading through one of your posts is painful , as most are laced with childish reasoning and are  void of meaningful implication.

    Your statement above is a glowing example of your ignorance, I bet you don’t “ask Atheists all the time “ for the simple reason Atheism is a position on one question and one question alone anything else is not Atheism but merely the opinion of someone who claims to be an Atheist 
  • DeeDee 2590 Pts
    @Sonofason

    Read this it’s a lovely example of ‘Christian logic’ .......

    You say .... I don't know if the Bible is true or not...... Then ..... my belief that the Bible is true is not founded in ignorance, but in knowledge.

    But you  said you don’t know if it’s true or not ? How  is that then a demonstration of knowledge  based belief if you don’t know if it’s true or not?

    You need to work on your logic son 

      
    AlofRI
  • SwolliwSwolliw 398 Pts
    edited September 9
    @Sonofason
     I am finding I believe the Bible is true, and even from a very literal perspective.

    Well, yes, the Bible is true...in that it exists. But if we are talking about the validity of the contents of the Bible, it is far from the truth. That is a fact since most of the Bible has proven to be either unconfirmed anecdotes, myths and outright inconsistencies and inaccuracies. So, if one were to trust the Bible in that context, one is deluded.
    Atheists have a distinct advantage over theists since the information that confirms their views is highly accurate, thoroughly tested and abundant. To date, theists have absolutely no information that confirms nor supports their idiosyncratic beliefs in any way.
    We_are_accountableAlofRI
  • @Sonofason
    The fact is, atheists have beliefs.  And I described those beliefs quite accurately.
    Yeah, sure you did. Let's just look at exactly what you said: "They typically do not know their derrière from a hole in the ground when it comes to having a true foundation for their beliefs."

    Says a lot about your accuracy, doesn't it?
  • SwolliwSwolliw 398 Pts
    edited September 9
    @Happy_Killbot
    How about change "atheists" to "some people" in order to be consistent?

    How about changing "atheists" to "most people who are capable of thinking for themselves"?
  • Of course belief is a question of ignorance as belief emerges when knowledge disappears or is otherwise unavailable and all we're left with is ignorance... If we knew all there was to know, we wouldn't believe anything, we'd know... So belief is definitely a question of ignorance...  The more incomplete is your knowledge, the more you have to rely on belief to make decisions...
    Happy_KillbotSkepticalOneAlofRI
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @Sonofason ;
    I didn't mean to suggest that atheism is a belief.  The fact is, atheists have beliefs.  And I described those beliefs quite accurately
    You are still wrong. Atheism is a philosophical position about the existence of god.

    By definition, it is not a belief. You said and I quote:
    "Most atheists are wannabe scientists. They typically do not know their derrière from a hole in the ground when it comes to having a true foundation for their beliefs."

    Atheism is a lack of belief in god, gods, or other mythical beings. So it is not possible for them to have a "foundation for their beliefs" because atheism doesn't entail belief thus there can be no foundation.

    Furthermore, you deliberately suggest that atheists have beliefs with this quote.

    Science =/= atheism. You can be an atheist and have nothing to do with science. You again, prove to have no clue what you are talking about.

    How about you go back and re-write that whole claim above if you actually want to be taken seriously. If you really mean to insist that "some atheists have beliefs therefore.." you are making a sweeping generalization that is nonsense.
    How about change "atheists" to "some people" in order to be consistent?
    Atheism is no such thing.  Atheists are anything but philosophical.  Atheism is a belief that no God exists.  The atheists who say that they lack belief in God are not honest and truthful.  The fact is they believe that there is no God.  Actually, for most it is much worse then that.  They know God exists, and they hate God.  It think that is the category in which you belong.

    Atheists do have beliefs.  They believe if they pretend they have no belief in God, no on will notice that they actually hate God.  Also they vehemently believe all science, because they believe that belief in science nullifies the existence of God.  But the atheist is wrong.  

    PlaffelvohfenAlofRI
  • Dee said:
    @Sonofason

    I ask atheists all the time for evidence for all sorts of claims they make


    Reading through one of your posts is painful , as most are laced with childish reasoning and are  void of meaningful implication.

    Your statement above is a glowing example of your ignorance, I bet you don’t “ask Atheists all the time “ for the simple reason Atheism is a position on one question and one question alone anything else is not Atheism but merely the opinion of someone who claims to be an Atheist 
    No, atheism is an entire world view.  The atheist is defined by his/her atheism.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • Dee said:
    @Sonofason

    Read this it’s a lovely example of ‘Christian logic’ .......

    You say .... I don't know if the Bible is true or not...... Then ..... my belief that the Bible is true is not founded in ignorance, but in knowledge.

    But you  said you don’t know if it’s true or not ? How  is that then a demonstration of knowledge  based belief if you don’t know if it’s true or not?

    You need to work on your logic son 

      
    My beliefs are based on a wealth of knowledge.  The atheist's beliefs are based in a lack of knowledge.  Faith, like belief comes down to trust. There is no valid evidence suggesting there is no God.  In fact, all the science points to the Creator.
    PlaffelvohfenAlofRI
  • Swolliw said:
    @Sonofason
     I am finding I believe the Bible is true, and even from a very literal perspective.

    Well, yes, the Bible is true...in that it exists. But if we are talking about the validity of the contents of the Bible, it is far from the truth. That is a fact since most of the Bible has proven to be either unconfirmed anecdotes, myths and outright inconsistencies and inaccuracies. So, if one were to trust the Bible in that context, one is deluded.
    Atheists have a distinct advantage over theists since the information that confirms their views is highly accurate, thoroughly tested and abundant. To date, theists have absolutely no information that confirms nor supports their idiosyncratic beliefs in any way.
    If you had evidence to support this claim, you'd have shown it a long time ago.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • SonofasonSonofason 164 Pts
    edited September 10
    Swolliw said:
    @Sonofason
    The fact is, atheists have beliefs.  And I described those beliefs quite accurately.
    Yeah, sure you did. Let's just look at exactly what you said: "They typically do not know their derrière from a hole in the ground when it comes to having a true foundation for their beliefs."

    Says a lot about your accuracy, doesn't it?
    Yes...that about sums it up.  The wannabe scientist atheists have no evidence to support the science they believe and cling to.
  • Swolliw said:
    @Happy_Killbot
    How about change "atheists" to "some people" in order to be consistent?

    How about changing "atheists" to "most people who are capable of thinking for themselves"?
    I prefer to remain honest and consistent.
    Happy_KillbotPlaffelvohfenAlofRI
  • @Sonofason
    I prefer to remain honest and consistent.

    Well if, "They typically do not know their derrière from a hole in the ground...."  is honest and consistent I'd rather be capable of thinking for myself any day thank you very much.

  • Swolliw said:
    @Sonofason
    I prefer to remain honest and consistent.

    Well if, "They typically do not know their derrière from a hole in the ground...."  is honest and consistent I'd rather be capable of thinking for myself any day thank you very much.

    If you are saying you now abandon your blind faith in science, you have my attention.
  • The tables are turning upside down upon the atheist.  Their faith in science has left them blinded from the truth.  They believe lies and what they cannot see.  And when they see they cannot understand.  Soon science will belong to us, because God desires that we understand the truth.
    PlaffelvohfenAlofRI
  • @Sonofason
    If you are saying you now abandon your blind faith in science, you have my attention.

    Hey, I've never had "blind faith" in science and I would never say that science always gets it right. In any case, it is probably more the case that science is deadly right however, the application of science for proof can be incorrect.
    What I will say is that science is pure, definitive and by far the best measuring stick for determining facts.
    So far as evolution goes, there are many miscalculations however if we were to look at the overwhelming tonnes of evidence that is accurate and completely puts the kibosh on creation one is entitled to conclude that the theory of creation is well and truly off the bargaining table...let's face it, creation never got off the ground in the first place.....trying to punch holes into evolution science is hardly what you would call coming up with evidence for creation and so far, creationists have brought nothing of substance to the table....except a nail punch.

    I may be an atheist but I am a sceptic first and foremost. And, I am an atheist because I am a sceptic.
  • @Sonofason ;
    I prefer to remain honest and consistent.
    Then be honest and consistent because right now you are being neither.

    Atheism is no more a belief than not collecting stamps is a hobby.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • DeeDee 2590 Pts
    @Sonofason


    My beliefs are based on a wealth of knowledge. 

    Yet  you said ....  I don't know if the Bible is true or not


    The atheist's beliefs are based in a lack of knowledge. 

    Nonsense  , Atheism is a position on one question alone , do you need to keep hearing this so you can deny it again 

     Faith, like belief comes down to trust

    Nonsense , religious faith is based on spiritual conviction nothing else , again you attempt to lump spiritual conviction in with reasonable trust 

    There is no valid evidence suggesting there is no God.  

    I never said for 100 per cent certainty there is no god so the burden of proof is with you , again you’re attempting to shift the burden of proof 

    In fact, all the science points to the Creator.

    Really? Point out one peer reviewed science paper that backs your nonsense up ......What? ......There is none .......
    Plaffelvohfen
  • DeeDee 2590 Pts
    @Sonofason

    No, atheism is an entire world view. 

    No it’s not , repeating a lie doesn’t make it true  

    The atheist is defined by his/her atheism

    Nonsense , you’re talking about people like you actually the indoctrinated 
    Plaffelvohfen
  • Swolliw said:
    @Sonofason
    If you are saying you now abandon your blind faith in science, you have my attention.

    Hey, I've never had "blind faith" in science and I would never say that science always gets it right. In any case, it is probably more the case that science is deadly right however, the application of science for proof can be incorrect.
    What I will say is that science is pure, definitive and by far the best measuring stick for determining facts.
    So far as evolution goes, there are many miscalculations however if we were to look at the overwhelming tonnes of evidence that is accurate and completely puts the kibosh on creation one is entitled to conclude that the theory of creation is well and truly off the bargaining table...let's face it, creation never got off the ground in the first place.....trying to punch holes into evolution science is hardly what you would call coming up with evidence for creation and so far, creationists have brought nothing of substance to the table....except a nail punch.

    I may be an atheist but I am a sceptic first and foremost. And, I am an atheist because I am a sceptic.
    Since belief is based in ignorance, then why do you believe there is not God?  Why not hold the position of an agnostic? Would that not be more honest?
  • @Sonofason ;
    I prefer to remain honest and consistent.
    Then be honest and consistent because right now you are being neither.

    Atheism is no more a belief than not collecting stamps is a hobby.
    Are you suggesting that there is not one living soul in the universe that believes there is no God?  Surely you jest.
    Happy_Killbot
  • @Sonofason

    Since belief is based in ignorance, then why do you believe there is a God?  Why not hold the position of an agnostic? Would that not be more honest?
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • Dee said:
    @Sonofason


    My beliefs are based on a wealth of knowledge. 

    Yet  you said ....  I don't know if the Bible is true or not


    The atheist's beliefs are based in a lack of knowledge. 

    Nonsense  , Atheism is a position on one question alone , do you need to keep hearing this so you can deny it again 

     Faith, like belief comes down to trust

    Nonsense , religious faith is based on spiritual conviction nothing else , again you attempt to lump spiritual conviction in with reasonable trust 

    There is no valid evidence suggesting there is no God.  

    I never said for 100 per cent certainty there is no god so the burden of proof is with you , again you’re attempting to shift the burden of proof 

    In fact, all the science points to the Creator.

    Really? Point out one peer reviewed science paper that backs your nonsense up ......What? ......There is none .......
    I maintain my beliefs are based on a wealth of knowledge.  Science has given us a wealth of knowledge, and it points to a creator.  
    Some scientists believe there was a Big Bang, but they do not know if that is true.  To suggest the science points to their being no God is a display of ignorance at best, and at worst, a flagrant lie.

    There are theists...there are agnostics, and there are liars.

    This conversation has absolutely nothing at all to do with spiritual conviction and religion.  Why would you assume I worship a god?  That is not something we've discussed.

    I'm not sure why paper is important to this discussion.  

    "Many have impressive publication records in secular scientific journals too. But creationists cannot publish their creationist ideas in secular journals because the evolutionary worldview has a stranglehold on scientific publishing. How did that happen? It’s a long story but it’s got to change.

    Some have quipped that the scientific establishment has developed immunity to new ideas. Certainly the symptoms are showing. They have a shocking history of censoring any hint of creation and intelligent design from the marketplace of ideas. Sir Isaac Newton would be locked out of publishing his thinking today.

    That’s why creationists set up their own scientific journals—to break free from these mind-forged manacles."

    https://www.icr.org/article/do-creation-scientists-publish-mainstream

    If you want to see the science of Creationists, you'll have to go outside mainstream science journals.  It's like a conservative trying to have lunch with their family in a place where they are surrounded by democrats.  If they get any inclination that you are a conservative, they will smash your head in with a bat.  Just have a look at what is going on in democratically run cities.  Good people are being hurt.  Some are even murdered, just because they don't believe what you believe.

    PlaffelvohfenHappy_Killbot
  • Dee said:
    @Sonofason

    No, atheism is an entire world view. 

    No it’s not , repeating a lie doesn’t make it true  

    The atheist is defined by his/her atheism

    Nonsense , you’re talking about people like you actually the indoctrinated 
    You've got it backwards.  Science started with good intentions, but the tables have turned.  Now it is the mainstream science that clings to dogma, and it is the creationists who are seeking true knowledge.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • @Sonofason

    Since belief is based in ignorance, then why do you believe there is a God?  Why not hold the position of an agnostic? Would that not be more honest?
    I suppose it would.  But when I see the venom dripping from the mouths of atheists, who claim to have no belief in God, I know darn well they are on the wrong side of the fence.  You have convinced me that God exists.
  • @Sonofason ;
    Are you suggesting that there is not one living soul in the universe that believes there is no God?  Surely you jest.
    That's a straw man. No further explanation should be required.

    It is a travesty to suggest that atheism is a belief. It is even more wrong to suggest that you "know" god because of some ancient book.

    Let me ask you this: Why are you not a Muslim? Or a Jew? Or a Hindu? Why is it that you are a Christian and not any of these other faiths?
    PlaffelvohfenAlofRI
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Sonofason ;
    Since belief is based in ignorance, then why do you believe there is not God?  Why not hold the position of an agnostic? Would that not be more honest?
    A lack of belief is not a belief!

    "I don't have a belief in any gods" =/= "I believe that no gods exist"

    What you don't seem to understand is that there are 2 kinds of atheism:

    Agnostic-atheism: a neutral position on the existence of god with a default position that proof will change one's mind. For example, god comes down from the clouds and makes itself known that would change the minds of the Agnostic-atheist.

    Gnostic-atheism: a positive position on the non-existence of god, such that there can be no proof that a god or gods exist. A gnostic-atheist would be one who concudes that the being claiming to be god coming down to earth was a powerful entity indeed, but not a god in any meaningful way.

    I and most other atheists I know happen to hold the former.

    There are also Agnostic-theism and Gnostic-theism which do the same thing across theistic positions.

    A agnostic-theist is one who believes the bible and holy books are metaphorical and doesn't have a positive position on the existence of god. They are sometimes called "religious moderates" and make up the silent majority of Christians.

    A Gnostic-theist is you.
    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Sonofason

    So you do admit you're holding a dishonest position, but you're sticking to it... Interesting...

    And in what way can a "venom dripping atheist" be any sort of evidence for the existence of a theistic god?? 
    Happy_KillbotJGXdebatePRO
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • DeeDee 2590 Pts
    edited September 10
    @Sonofason

    I maintain my beliefs are based on a wealth of knowledge

    No you don’t you clearly stated ....   I don't know if the Bible is true or not

    Science has given us a wealth of knowledge, and it points to a creator.  

    Show me one peer reviewed paper that points to a creator?


    Some scientists believe there was a Big Bang, but they do not know if that is true.  

    So what? Atheism is still a position on one question alone nothing else 

    To suggest the science points to their being no God is a display of ignorance at best, and at worst, a flagrant lie.

    Science does not investigate the so called supernatural as their is zero evidence for such , tell me where Science makes claims their is a god? 

    The only one lying here is you 

    There are theists...there are agnostics, and there are liars.

    Wow! You’re pretty childish aren’t you? Because you have no valid arguments and because of your stupidity you brand others liars 

    This conversation has absolutely nothing at all to do with spiritual conviction and religion. 

    Really? 

     Why would you assume I worship a god? 

    Well you did say ....  You have convinced me that God exists.



     That is not something we've discussed.

    Hey dummy you said ....  You have convinced me that God exists.

    I'm not sure why paper is important to this discussion.  

    What are you on about ? 

    "Many have impressive publication records in secular scientific journals too. But creationists cannot publish their creationist ideas in secular journals because the evolutionary worldview has a stranglehold on scientific publishing. How did that happen? It’s a long story but it’s got to change.

    Evolution is fact Doofus creationism is pseudoscience 

    Some have quipped that the scientific establishment has developed immunity to new ideas. 

    Yes clowns like you 


    Certainly the symptoms are showing. They have a shocking history of censoring any hint of creation and intelligent design from the marketplace of ideas. Sir Isaac Newton would be locked out of publishing his thinking today.

    Yes if he spouted his nonsense about Alchemy he would 

    That’s why creationists set up their own scientific journals—to break free from these mind-forged manacles."

    No they set them up as not one of them could get to peer review with their BS 



    https://www.icr.org/article/do-creation-scientists-publish-mainstream

    If you want to see the science of Creationists, you'll have to go outside mainstream science journals. 



    Bwaaaaaaahahahahahaha 


    The Institute for Creation Research (ICR) is a young-Earth creationist faux-research organization that produces voluminous quote mines and logical fallacies in pursuit of debunking evolution and an old earth. The ICR is the unholy spawn of San Diego Christian College and are a bunch of cranks who want to undermine science education and eventually turn the United States into a young-Earth creationistdominionist society. The Institute was founded by Henry Morris in 1972 and has since gone on to become one of the centers of the anti-evolution movement and quite possibly the general anti-science movement in the US.


    There is no Science in creationism you clown 


     It's like a conservative trying to have lunch with their family in a place where they are surrounded by democrats.  If they get any inclination that you are a conservative, they will smash your head in with a bat.  

    Really ? You are barking mad mad do you know that?


    Just have a look at what is going on in democratically run cities.  Good people are being hurt.  Some are even murdered, just because they don't believe what you believe.

    Right , you truly are the type of clot Trump is reliant on for a vote 

    PlaffelvohfenHappy_Killbot
  • DeeDee 2590 Pts
    @Sonofason

    You've got it backwards.  Science started with good intentions, but the tables have turned.  Now it is the mainstream science that clings to dogma, and it is the creationists who are seeking true knowledge. 




    Here is your ‘true knowledge ‘ hilarious..... The Institute for Creation Research (ICR) is a young-Earth creationist faux-research organization that produces voluminous quote mines and logical fallacies in pursuit of debunking evolution and an old earth. The ICR is the unholy spawn of San Diego Christian College and are a bunch of cranks who want to undermine science education and eventually turn the United States into a young-Earth creationistdominionist society. The Institute was founded by Henry Morris in 1972 and has since gone on to become one of the centers of the anti-evolution movement and quite possibly the general anti-science movement in the US.


    PlaffelvohfenHappy_KillbotJGXdebatePRO
  • Noah?? Jonah? A "god" taking advantage of a poor virgin? An innocent woman turned to stone for being unable to control her "God-given" curiosity?? Millions of people, including mothers and babies (including "viable ones") and animals killed by a "just god", a "loving god". All that and MORE, and I'm supposed to "believe" a story like that?? I don't BELIEVE Steven King! But, he's never killed at that level that I know of! Steven IS a better writer .... of fiction, that is.

    Of course, this book has been translated over and over. Rewritten over and over, pieced together of short stories and rumors, etc. So, I can't really blame the author. By the way ... just who IS the author??? (If that isn't showing my ignorance ;-)
    Plaffelvohfen
  • @Dee ;
    Just so you are aware, this guy detests the likes of Ken Ham, Kent Hovind, and his creationist cronies and rejects many of their views which he supplements with his own ad-hoc ideas based on a high-school level understanding of science. 

    He both champions and rejects these pseudo-scientific institutions, picking and choosing quotes and passages to meet his temporary agenda.

    He doesn't care if he contradicts himself or must reinterprets his own quotes to maintain a (very thin) veil of accuracy or relevancy.
    PlaffelvohfenJGXdebatePRO
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • SonofasonSonofason 164 Pts
    edited September 11
    @Sonofason ;
    Since belief is based in ignorance, then why do you believe there is not God?  Why not hold the position of an agnostic? Would that not be more honest?
    A lack of belief is not a belief!

    "I don't have a belief in any gods" =/= "I believe that no gods exist"

    What you don't seem to understand is that there are 2 kinds of atheism:

    Agnostic-atheism: a neutral position on the existence of god with a default position that proof will change one's mind. For example, god comes down from the clouds and makes itself known that would change the minds of the Agnostic-atheist.

    Gnostic-atheism: a positive position on the non-existence of god, such that there can be no proof that a god or gods exist. A gnostic-atheist would be one who concudes that the being claiming to be god coming down to earth was a powerful entity indeed, but not a god in any meaningful way.

    I and most other atheists I know happen to hold the former.

    There are also Agnostic-theism and Gnostic-theism which do the same thing across theistic positions.

    A agnostic-theist is one who believes the bible and holy books are metaphorical and doesn't have a positive position on the existence of god. They are sometimes called "religious moderates" and make up the silent majority of Christians.

    A Gnostic-theist is you.
    From Science vs Religion 
    RS_master wrote "the universe started as a particle itself. Quantum fluctuations are a part of quantum physics."  
    ScienceRules, wrote "Ever heard of quantum physics? Know what it means?"
    marke wrote,  "If matter had an origin then what existed before matter originated?   Nothing."
    ScienceRules "wrote, But surely the theory about God creating this universe in just a few days is abysmally s****d. "
    RS_master wrote, "therefore you admit that god does not exist?"
    Happy_Killbot wrote, "You know exactly why, it's because it never happened."

    From the thread "God does not exist. Prove me wrong"
    RS_master created a thread, "God does not exist. Prove me wrong."
    MayCaesar wrote, "It is reasonable to assume that no gods exist, only our Universe does."
    RS_master wrote I made this debate so of course I am going to try to prove myself right. I do not want to prove myself wrong. I am defending atheism.
    " God does not exist. Prove me wrong." 


    Are you telling me that these atheists do not believe that God does not exist?  I'll say it again.  All atheists believe God does not exist.
    Happy_KillbotPlaffelvohfenJGXdebatePRO
  • @Sonofason ;
    Are you telling me that these atheists do not believe that God does not exist?  I'll say it again.  All atheists believe God does not exist.
    And I'll tell you again, a lack of anything is not a positive of opposite.

    I've told you before, which I have noticed is excluded from your cherry-picked examples,

    I am an agnostic-atheist.

    I do not believe in god, but if there were sufficient evidence I would change my mind.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • DeeDee 2590 Pts
    @Happy_Killbot

    Thanks for that , he’s a match for most the Christian nuts on here , earlier he posted up a link to the creation institute claiming its contributions were based on ‘real science ‘ .......I’m starting to think this site is being taken over by religious nuts 
    PlaffelvohfenJGXdebatePRO
  • @Sonofason

    So you do admit you're holding a dishonest position, but you're sticking to it... Interesting...

    And in what way can a "venom dripping atheist" be any sort of evidence for the existence of a theistic god?? 
    No, it shows that I am being honest. 

    The venom dripping atheists show that they may in fact believe God exists, but they hate God to the degree that  they say will anything to anyone that will be offensive to God, and also to those who put their faith in  God.
    Happy_KillbotDeePlaffelvohfenJGXdebatePRO
  • DeeDee 2590 Pts
    @Sonofason


    * A man turned into a frog in front of my eyes 

    * Some people can actually fly 

    * All cats are actually Aliens in disguise 

    Did you believe any of those bullet points? If you didn’t believe all of them, then you have experienced a lack of belief on at least one of them

    Is your lack of belief in such thus a belief?

    Finally are you really that dense or just trolling ?
    JGXdebatePRO
  • DeeDee 2590 Pts
    edited September 10
    @Sonofason



    Dee wrote,  "If matter had an origin then what existed before matter originated?   Nothing."

    You need to post up the piece where I said this , can you supply it?
    JGXdebatePRO
  • Dee said:
    @Sonofason

    I maintain my beliefs are based on a wealth of knowledge

    No you don’t you clearly stated ....   I don't know if the Bible is true or not

    Science has given us a wealth of knowledge, and it points to a creator.  

    Show me one peer reviewed paper that points to a creator?


    Some scientists believe there was a Big Bang, but they do not know if that is true.  

    So what? Atheism is still a position on one question alone nothing else 

    To suggest the science points to their being no God is a display of ignorance at best, and at worst, a flagrant lie.

    Science does not investigate the so called supernatural as their is zero evidence for such , tell me where Science makes claims their is a god? 

    The only one lying here is you 

    There are theists...there are agnostics, and there are liars.

    Wow! You’re pretty childish aren’t you? Because you have no valid arguments and because of your stupidity you brand others liars 

    This conversation has absolutely nothing at all to do with spiritual conviction and religion. 

    Really? 

     Why would you assume I worship a god? 

    Well you did say ....  You have convinced me that God exists.



     That is not something we've discussed.

    Hey dummy you said ....  You have convinced me that God exists.

    I'm not sure why paper is important to this discussion.  

    What are you on about ? 

    "Many have impressive publication records in secular scientific journals too. But creationists cannot publish their creationist ideas in secular journals because the evolutionary worldview has a stranglehold on scientific publishing. How did that happen? It’s a long story but it’s got to change.

    Evolution is fact Doofus creationism is pseudoscience 

    Some have quipped that the scientific establishment has developed immunity to new ideas. 

    Yes clowns like you 


    Certainly the symptoms are showing. They have a shocking history of censoring any hint of creation and intelligent design from the marketplace of ideas. Sir Isaac Newton would be locked out of publishing his thinking today.

    Yes if he spouted his nonsense about Alchemy he would 

    That’s why creationists set up their own scientific journals—to break free from these mind-forged manacles."

    No they set them up as not one of them could get to peer review with their BS 



    https://www.icr.org/article/do-creation-scientists-publish-mainstream

    If you want to see the science of Creationists, you'll have to go outside mainstream science journals. 



    Bwaaaaaaahahahahahaha 


    The Institute for Creation Research (ICR) is a young-Earth creationist faux-research organization that produces voluminous quote mines and logical fallacies in pursuit of debunking evolution and an old earth. The ICR is the unholy spawn of San Diego Christian College and are a bunch of cranks who want to undermine science education and eventually turn the United States into a young-Earth creationistdominionist society. The Institute was founded by Henry Morris in 1972 and has since gone on to become one of the centers of the anti-evolution movement and quite possibly the general anti-science movement in the US.


    There is no Science in creationism you clown 


     It's like a conservative trying to have lunch with their family in a place where they are surrounded by democrats.  If they get any inclination that you are a conservative, they will smash your head in with a bat.  

    Really ? You are barking mad mad do you know that?


    Just have a look at what is going on in democratically run cities.  Good people are being hurt.  Some are even murdered, just because they don't believe what you believe.

    Right , you truly are the type of clot Trump is reliant on for a vote 

    It's your lucky day.  I have decided that your post is not worthy of my response.  Good day.  The scum dripping from your mouth is too offensive.
    PlaffelvohfenJGXdebatePRO
  • Dee said:
    @Sonofason

    You've got it backwards.


    More wishful thinking
    JGXdebatePRO
  • SonofasonSonofason 164 Pts
    edited September 10
    @Sonofason ;
    Are you telling me that these atheists do not believe that God does not exist?  I'll say it again.  All atheists believe God does not exist.
    And I'll tell you again, a lack of anything is not a positive of opposite.

    I've told you before, which I have noticed is excluded from your cherry-picked examples,

    I am an agnostic-atheist.

    I do not believe in god, but if there were sufficient evidence I would change my mind.
    That's fine.  I did not search hard for the examples I gave.  And I am not claiming that you are a liar.  But if those atheists I named dare to say that they are atheists simply because they have no belief in God, then they are liars.  You may not be...I have not made that determination as of yet.  But your faith in science is certainly dogmatic, as I have shown.  You believe scientific claims that are untrue.  I showed them to you and you still believe what you believe, and you have not been able to show with evidence that you are right to trust the science that you believe is true.
    PlaffelvohfenJGXdebatePRO
  • Dee said:
    @Sonofason


    * A man turned into a frog in front of my eyes 

    * Some people can actually fly 

    * All cats are actually Aliens in disguise 

    Did you believe any of those bullet points? If you didn’t believe all of them, then you have experienced a lack of belief on at least one of them

    Is your lack of belief in such thus a belief?

    Finally are you really that dense or just trolling ?
    Your dishonesty is becoming quite apparent now. 
    In the thread science vs religion, you said, "If matter had an origin then what existed before matter originated?   Nothing."
    If you can demand that nothing existed before matter originated, then you believe that God does not exist.  Therefore you are exactly what I think you are.  And most atheists like you in fact have a belief about god, and that belief is that God does not exist.  So why not stop pretending, and admit what you are, and move on, instead of the pretense of being so much more sophisticated than you actually are.
    PlaffelvohfenJGXdebatePRO
  • Dee said:
    @Sonofason



    Dee wrote,  "If matter had an origin then what existed before matter originated?   Nothing."

    You need to post up the piece where I said this , can you supply it?
    Why, so you can go back and rewrite what you said...you find it yourself.  I told you where it was.
    JGXdebatePRO
  • @Sonofason ;
    That's fine.  I did not search hard for the examples I gave.  And I am not claiming that you are a liar.  But if those atheists I named dare to say that they are atheists simply because they have no belief in God, then they are liars.  You may not be...I have not made that determination as of yet.  But your faith in science is certainly dogmatic, as I have shown.  You believe scientific claims that are untrue.  I showed them to you and you still believe what you believe, and you have not been able to show with evidence that you are right to trust the science that you believe is true.
    If someone has faith in science, they missed the point. Some people (such as yourself) seem to think science is a collection of knowledge, or body of information. This is not true. Science is a way of thinking about the world that encompasses all things that could possibly be known and a way to discover those things.

    There is no "dogma" in science, and what little there is pails in comparison to the dogma in Religion (it's the whole thing).

    I recomend getting a log out of your eye before you complain about the needle in another.
    PlaffelvohfenJGXdebatePRO
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Sonofason ;
    That's fine.  I did not search hard for the examples I gave.  And I am not claiming that you are a liar.  But if those atheists I named dare to say that they are atheists simply because they have no belief in God, then they are liars.  You may not be...I have not made that determination as of yet.  But your faith in science is certainly dogmatic, as I have shown.  You believe scientific claims that are untrue.  I showed them to you and you still believe what you believe, and you have not been able to show with evidence that you are right to trust the science that you believe is true.
    If someone has faith in science, they missed the point. Some people (such as yourself) seem to think science is a collection of knowledge, or body of information. This is not true. Science is a way of thinking about the world that encompasses all things that could possibly be known and a way to discover those things.

    There is no "dogma" in science, and what little there is pails in comparison to the dogma in Religion (it's the whole thing).

    I recomend getting a log out of your eye before you complain about the needle in another.
    You yourself believe that photons are particles.  You have not seen any evidence that this is true, yet you believe it.  Can you explain this?
    JGXdebatePRO
  • @Sonofason ;
    You yourself believe that photons are particles.  You have not seen any evidence that this is true, yet you believe it.  Can you explain this?
    Well, you might want to read up on your quantum physics. This is advanced physics 101. You could have saved yourself some time and just read the Wikipedia page:

    The photon is a type of elementary particle. It is the quantum of the electromagnetic field including electromagnetic radiation such as light and radio waves, and the force carrier for the electromagnetic force. Photons are massless,[a] and they always move at the speed of light in vacuum299792458 m/s.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon

    The TL;DR is that a photon is a particle and a wave depending on the circumstance

    One of the key insights of quantum mechanics is that waves can behave like particles when being observed. To make matters more confusing, things we might think of as particles such as electrons can behave like waves when not observed. This is the super-confusing mind boggling result of the double-slit experiment that serves as the foundation of all quantum experiments.

    I'm getting a little into the weeds, but you should definitely read about this. Just don't get on the woo-woo train it goes to scamsville, but I digress.

    Anyways, when a photon is created it travels as a wave out in all directions from the point of origin. However, when it interacts with something like an electron such as in the photo-electric effect it becomes corpuscular (point-like) and is considered a particle. 

    This is how the universe functions on a quantum level. In practice, what this means is that a photon created in the sun travels for 8 minutes (subjective to our time, to the particle it was instantaneous) as a wave occupying all points in space around it's future light cone. When it interacts with something on earth, say chlorophyll in a plant's leaf, it turns into a particle and only occupies that single spot where the interaction occurs.

    In fact, the name "quantum mechanics" is derived from observation about photons in that they contained very specific amounts of energy, or "quanta" meaning quantity.
    PlaffelvohfenJGXdebatePRO
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
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