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I'm pro gun change my mind

Debate Information

I'm pro gun and believe in the inalienable right to bare arms. 
We_are_accountableJohnwik
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Arguments

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  • I'm "pro-gun" also, and I'm a liberal. I am NOT pro-gun to the extent that the NRA is, I used to be a proud member of the NRA for many years. I shot in NRA sanctioned matches, I taught NRA hunter safety classes. I quit them in the late '90s when they went radical. They are even MORE radical today! The Second Amendment was written when the weapon of choice was the single-shot musket! They could not have imagined an assault weapon with a firing rate of a thousand rounds+ a minute! It calls for a "well-regulated militia", The National Guard IS that "well-regulated militia", not some para-military band of anti-government white men! 

    We NEED common-sense regulations with background checks! We do NOT need assault weapons in the hands of a bunch of alpha-males with an agenda!

    We do NOT need the NRA pouring money into the government that THEY, for some inexplicable reason, do not "trust". THEY do not trust anyone that doesn't agree with them! THAT IS NOT a democracy! We NEED democracy. We NEED common sense, not a Trump regime strong point.  :mask:
  • @4Loko ;

    I also support the second amendment, but just to clarify your exact position, what is your opinion on the following issues:

    - sale and purchase of weapon modifiers such as bump stocks that make semi-auto guns effectively full auto
    - production, sale, and purchase of junk guns, or those made by other than professionals
    - sale and purchase of non-weapon military equipment and hardware such as bullet proof vests, radio jamming equipment, and transport vehicles
    - red flag gun laws
    - access to guns by people who have committed a felony
    - access to guns by people who have a known mental disorder
    - sale and purchase of fully automatic weapons
    - access to guns by individuals who are known to be suicidal or who have had suicidal intentions in the past (i.e attempted suicide)
    - sale and purchase of military weapons such grenade launchers, armor piercing rifles, or missiles
    - sale and purchase of war-fighting machines such as armored vehicles, main battle tanks, or warships
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @AlofRI ;

    I don't know what exactly happened to the NRA, they started out as a really good organization until they were taken over, now it seems like all they want is to boost gun sales by spreading hysteria in the meantime their leaders are not being as corrupt.
    AlofRI
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @Happy_Killbot ;
    Hey thanks for joining the party! I'm gonna address each one of those as best I can in roughly the same format.

    - As far modifications go there is absolutely nothing wrong with them having them and installing them. Bump sticks for example (which are currently now banned thanks to the las Vegas psychopath). These don't make a gun automatic however and one can make a "ghetto" bumb stock with a belt loop performing the same function. All that happens with bump stocks is the recoil is pushing back against your finger pulling the trigger again but still not automatic. Its also more of a fun item then it is a practical one functionality for actual combat it sucks since you sacrificed your ability to use semi auto fire which is far more accurate. 

    - With the junk guns its none of the governments business if i make one or not the same way if i make a knife in an amature blacksmithing set up. The only person that is liable for anything done with it is the creator and buyer if it gets sold. I could put together an automobile like a rat rod in a backyard and its not "professional" yet functional all youd do if you wanna drive it on the road get some tags insurance etc. So if i make a gun its nobody's business.

    - As we know what is considered military equipment is very much legal. A recreational computer can turn into a "jamming device" but nobody is gonna ban a desktop or laptop. As far as Bullet resistant vests go there should be no reason someone can't purchase one its only job is to protect you in case of the worst happening. Transport vehicles can be any car, truck, motorcycle, or really anything on wheels. I assume you mean armored trucks like a humvie used by the US military. Its just a machine that goes from point A to point B that so happens to be bullet resistant it can't be used for aggression unless it has a gun mount. Even then its a vehicle made to defend you and protect you nothing more nothing less.

    - Red flag laws are completely unconstitutional violating your 2st and 4th amendment rights with no due process and illegaly confiscating your property. Not to mention this law can be abused and often is in states where its in effect. You simply can not punish someone for something they did not do you are innocent intil proven guilty.

    - With the felonys I largely agree felons should not have firearms or be allowed to purchase them. On the other hand I believe there are many non violent crimes that forfeit a felons right to bear arms and that is wrong. For example if i was selling weed to help pay rent and got thrown in jail with a felony serving a 2 year sentence on good behavior i don't think that person should have the right to bear arms taken away.

    - Many people that have reported metal disorder are already disqualified from purchasing firearms. You get put on a list with many others and that information is available to the FBI. The form 4473 asks you before you buy a gun if you have a metal disorder if you lie they will know and you will be fined or possibly sentenced to prison time it is illegal to lie on a federal form. There is of course the unreported ones and the conversion of that kind of mental disorder disqualifys them from owning a gun. For example if someone who served in the military and now has PTSD or even a police officer with PTSD, should they have they're right taken away? I think not. Like I said before you can't punish someone for something they haven't done. With that said I think mental disorder is a largely overlooked thing when talking about gun control. It is a whole other conversion but a very important one that is extremely complex and a lawmaker is in no way shape or form suited to decide what mental states are the "the bad ones or not as bad ones". It takes countless years for study and research to understand single topics.

    - Suicide is awful and only does more damage than any good. I would encourage anyone to seek out help in anyway shape or form if they have thoughts of suicide. However I don't think this is a gun issue and more of a society issue somekne who wants to die will kill themselves regardless of guns.

    - These last two i will address together since it all has to do with warfighting equipment. When the 2nd amendment was written it says " A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed". This had nothing to do with what types of weapons you have it had to do with the security of a free state and being able to overthrow a government that can potentially become tyrannical. Therefore the only way to defend yourself against such a government and how to defeat them makes it clear that you must have at the very least remotely similar equipment to support such a war. So to awnser that yes I think you should be able to have it. One might say " Really you want someone to have a missle???!" I don't think you'll be able to operate or even afford even a small missle they are not cheap and it takes lots of training to know exactly how to operate a such a system.

  • @4Loko
    Why do you believe that members of the public should have access to a dangerous weapon? You may say that the police will never be able to dry up the supply. I live in the UK, where all guns are forbidden, and the supply of guns is very low, illegal and not a major problem.
  • DeeDee 2590 Pts
    What do you need a gun for ? Is it just because you have a right to carry one?
  • Dee said:
    What do you need a gun for ? Is it just because you have a right to carry one?
    I agree.
    "If people really want guns, they'll find a way to get them", say Republicans. My response: Yes, but ordinary, law-abiding citizens won't try to get them.
    DeeJohnwik
  • @AlofRI
    Hey thanks for joining as well! The NRA is a different story they have been corrupted for sure as far as what they are supposed to be doing which is fighting for the 2nd amendment. When talking about the 2nd amendment you must understand it has nothing to do with sports or hunting. Its very simple "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the leople to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed". The national guard is not a milita it is a state controlled military and you are still DOD personnel which is federal. A militia is a band of people coming together from the Civil population to support a military or fight it. You are the militia i am the militia and the arms necessary for a potential war against a potentially tyrannical government must be at least remotely similar. And if you do not trust our government because of "the NRA pouring money into them" and "not a democracy " why in the world would you give them your guns? That is a contradiction. Assualt weapons is a made up term to push an agenda as you claim alpha males have an agenda to push. We have over 20,000 gun laws in place we are far passed commen sense because if we had any we'd understand the laws are not working. Putting a band-aid on a wound pouring out blood will not help no matter how many band-aids you put. That is exactly what is wrong with these laws its not really the gun there is a multitude of different issues that must be addressed. Focusing on only the guns will hurt people more then it helps. We can't help the little boy in the inner city living in a revolving cycle of violence and no remodels surrounded by the only remodels they have which are gangs to be better. We can't expect a gun law to prevent what he will be forced to do when on the streets. So again there are much deeper problems that are not ever pointed out because that doesn't fit the anti-gun agenda.
    AlofRI
  • 4Loko4Loko 27 Pts
    edited September 14
    @xlJ_dolphin_473
    Hey! Thanks for the response!
    I cant compare apples to oranges I don't live in the UK and you do not live in the United States our problems are not one in the same. Here in the states as foreign as it may seen to the outside world we have a 2nd amendment and for a very good reason as I've mentioned in other responses that I encourage you to read. A better question to ask is why wouldn't you give a citizen a firearm? A firearm is excellent at what it does its the most effective way to protect one's self i think from a purely self defense view and no emotion in it whats so ever it is very logical to have it for this reason. In the UK guns are actually not completely banned and there are firearms avaliable to buy for hunting mostly of couse as I said its not the United States so a very different process to buy there. The UK may not have a gun issue but as a result of the ban it have a huge knife violence problem. It doesn't matter if it's a gun what people fail to understand is that its not a gun issue because violence is violence and it comes in an almost endless amount of forms. The reason the 2nd amendment exists in the United States is to fight a government that can potentially become tyrannical.
    xlJ_dolphin_473Johnwik
  • @Dee
    What do you really need? Do you need the newest phone? Do I need to be here talking about this? Do we need nice cars? It isn't about a need yes the right to have them is extremely important and I encourage you to read my responses to other comments I think you can get alot of information from them! I appreciate you taking the time to try and persuade me i like seeing other people's perspectives. We all come from diffrent backgrounds and diffrent parts of the world with different experiences. The same reason I need a gun is not the same reason someone else would. Just as it is your right to have one in the United States its your right to not have one.
  • AlofRIAlofRI 906 Pts
    edited September 14
    When I was a member of the NRA they never worried about the Second Amendment. They worried about gun safety and teaching the young gun safety, especially. NOBODY worried about the 2nd!  Nobody worried about "taking their guns" until the 90's when these conspiracy theorists popped up. The Republican Party grabbed on to it to use against the Democrats and it's been with U.S. ever since. Nobody, in any numbers, wants to take anyone's guns. (With the possible exception of assault weapons .... to PREVENT a tyrannical government). We DO want to make it difficult (to impossible) for whackos to get them! It's the right that "Focusing on only guns". Democrats want to focus on gun safety .... because the NRA isn't doing the job they used to do! Too much money in the business!

    Funny thing. I'm FAR more worried about a "tyrannical government" in the last three years than I have been in the previous 80! The guns in the hands of "the militia" of today will HELP the REAL tyrannical government. The Trumpists. We need to get back to democracy, and Trumpism, AIN'T!  :worried:
  • @4Loko ;
    Thank you for this, I'll go through the same list and state my position on each then we can discuss any you would like to.

    - Gun mods like bump stocks: While most mods are perfectly acceptable, it does make sense to limit some such as bump stocks, magazine capacity, and anything that damages the weapons designed integrity. First off, mods like these don't give you much if any advantage for defending one's property and can even make it more difficult or dangerous to do so. This is before we even talk about the potential for abuse by anti-social individuals.

    - Junk guns: The overwhelming majority of people are unqualified to manufacture anything more than ascetics. While an individual who uses such a weapon can reasonably not be charged with a crime should they put their own life at risk, I would rather the sale of such weapons was restricted, if for no other reason than I want quality weapons. If I buy a gun I want to know that it will not blow up in my face. Most major weapons manufacturers do have self-imposed standards, but there is no common set of regulations as there are with most other industries like food and drug or car manufacturing. This especially applies to 3D printed guns, which lets be honest, are a joke.

    - non-weapon military equipment: I can't think of a single reason why anyone would need something like a radio jamer or radar installation, including in a revolutionary context. Such devices can not be used to defend one's property in any meaningful way, and jaming equipment in particular is a strictly offensive weapon. This doesn't apply to all hardware, but much of it I can't see any need for commercial use by the average citizen.

    - red flag gun laws: These laws are typically well intentioned but tend to open the doors for serious abuse. Suppose I don't like my neighbor and so I petition to have his guns removed. Unless there is a proven infraction of rights, these laws are typically ineffective at achieving their stated goal.

    - felons: For anyone convicted of a major felony I think that taking people's guns away is a logical first step, but I see no reason it should be permanent. If the individual can demonstrate a clear reformation in their behavior, a path to getting one's rights reinstated could be provided with some strict requirements akin to getting a licence.

    - mental disorder: For mental health issues, it is apparent that there is no "one size fits all" and that most people with mental health issues are suffering from some minor issues. It would probably be best if such a decision was informed by any therapist, doctor, or other mental health practitioner handling the person's case, and this testimony should be the major factor in determining one's status to buy guns.

    - suicidal persons: Gun related suicides account for the overwhelming majority of gun deaths in the US, at around 60%. This is somewhere between 50-60% of all suicides by any method. At the end of the day, a gun makes suicide much to easy. Simply restricting access to guns by people who are suicidal could be enough to make the suicidal individual re-evaluate their condition and possibly get the help they need. Temporary restrictions on gun purchases could significantly reduce the suicide rate, even if this was as simple as a flag in a data base set by anyone calling a suicide hotline, or by set by mental health practitioners.

    - military weapons: Advanced and special outfit military weapons really don't have any purpose or practical use by the average citizen. Especially for purely offensive weapons that have no purpose in self-defense or the defense of others, there is no reason that they should be in civilian hands. Even in the event of a violent revolution, most of these weapons will not be used by the military against rebels, so the laws of war would naturally discourage their use.

    - war-fighting machines: I separated this out because besides having all the same reasons discussed above for military weapons, it is even more so because of the some of the capabilities of certain modern weapons. For most of these, they take multiple operators so self-defense is something that can't even be considered. Furthermore, in most cases such weapons are only useful if one is using them against other weapons of the same variety. In the case of a violent revolution, such weapons would be more of a liability for the army to field over other less intrusive methods. Some newer weapons such as lethal autonomous weapons are well beyond the means of standard capability for an individual, but allows them to maintain control through the use of hardware. This opens the doors for risk free abuse by civilians without the need for personal accountability.

    Pick any of these you would like to further discuss, and I would be more than happy to.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • @AlofRI
    I'll say this once because I think it is important in discussing further issues. I am also an NRA member and it was exactly created to protect the 2nd amendment specifically to protect black people from having their gun rights taken away. Gun safety is a part of it but not the reason it was created. The only reason gun laws where created is because it stems from racism. Blacks in the 60s for example arm themselves against the kkk to defend black peoples right to vote and then the government bans carrying guns around. If Democrats (not all) are trying to make money off the gun business and worried about safety they would vote people such as Maj Tour into office. If your wondering who that is its the founder of Black guns matter the entire organization is about gun safety yet they denied him and don't fund him. In the 90s there was an "assault weapons ban" yet crime went down at the same rate its been going down and so after 10 years the ban was lifted. I'm not interested in the democrat vs Republicans trump supporter or not just facts. Thank you for the response!
    Johnwik
  • DeeDee 2590 Pts
    edited September 14
    @4Loko

    What do you really need?

    A home , food , income 

    Do you need the newest phone? 

    No which is why I don’t have the newest 

    Do I need to be here talking about this? 

    You don’t but you’ve made a choice to be here if you don’t want to debate , fine don’t do it 

    Do we need nice cars? 

    I don’t which is why I gave up using one last year 


    Now that we have established what I need or don’t need can you actually address the question?


    isn't about a need yes the right to have them is extremely important and I encourage you to read my responses to other comments I think you can get alot of information from them! 

    It seems you posted up a debate wanting people to agree with you why’s that? Your comments have zero pertinent information as regards what I asked 

    So again why is the right to have one ‘extremely important’ ?

    What do you need a gun for?

    appreciate you taking the time to try and persuade me i like seeing other people's perspectives

    I’m not trying to persuade you also I haven’t given a perspective, I want you to answer my two very simple questions?

    We all come from diffrent backgrounds and diffrent parts of the world with different experiences.

    And? 

     The same reason I need a gun is not the same reason someone else would

    So what’s your reason for having one ? You’re doing everything in your power to avoid answering surely you know why you want a gun?

    Just as it is your right to have one in the United States its your right to not have one.

    I’m aware of this , so can you answer the question I asked as 7 times now you’ve avoided doing so why’s that?
    JohnwikAlofRI

  • Yes dee gun owners understand what they might need their weapons for. I can see how that thought may be Alien to people of privileged backgrounds who have maybe never thought they needed to defend their life’s and wanted the best possible tool for that.
  • @Dee I don’t think @4Loko was creating a discussion for it to be an echo chamber I believe that the discussion on many levels comes down to are you willing to put your safety into someone else’s hands and if so do you or do you not see the problem with someone that writes your laws has no one to answer to?
  • 4Loko4Loko 27 Pts
    edited September 14
    @Dee
    Yes we need food, income, and a home
  • @Dee
    I'm not looking for anyone to agree with me otherwise i would have made a debate not a persuade me which is obvious not what your trying to do. So instead of trying to belittle me I think we can be more civil.

    Reasons For Owning A Gun
    - Sports
    - Self defense 
    - Hunting
    - Protection from government tyranny 
    - Recreation 
    AlofRI
  • DeeDee 2590 Pts
    edited September 14
    @Johnwik ;

    Yes dee gun owners understand what they might need their weapons for.

    Really? Wonder why they seem to be so secretive regards sharing them 

     I can see how that thought may be Alien to people of privileged backgrounds who have maybe never thought they needed to defend their life’s and wanted the best possible tool for that.

    Ahh right you all need a gun to defend your life thankfully I do not need one to defend my life which is why I live in a gun free society 

    I also didn’t know only the underprivileged carried guns in the US 

    Why are you calling a weapon a ‘tool’?
  • DeeDee 2590 Pts
    @4Loko

    Yes we need food, income, and a home

    And guns also if you’re American 
    Johnwik
  • DeeDee 2590 Pts
    @Johnwik

    @Dee I don’t think @4Loko was creating a discussion for it to be an echo chamber

    I asked him one question he refused to answer , this is not a debate it’s posted up for everyone to agree with him it seems 

     I believe that the discussion on many levels comes down to are you willing to put your safety into someone else’s hands 

    I’m very safe where I live I’m truly sorry you believe your safety is in jeopardy 

    and if so do you or do you not see the problem with someone that writes your laws has no one to answer to?

    I’ve no problems with the law in my country , it’s terrible you feel unsafe and do not trust your lawmakers 
  • @Dee coming from a fellow in the United Kingdom where they just entered their biggest recession in their history, than You’re either misinformed or do not care to be informed. And 2 what question has @4Loko not answered?
  • @Happy_Killbot
    I think we'll go with the modifications of firearms. The 9th circuit Court already said it is unconstitutional to restrict magazine capacity. Many people say "high capacity" but these are slandered magazines. There have been countless police officers that have put 10+ bullets onto a suspected to still find them standing and thats one guy. I'm not gonna bet anyone's life on saying that that will be enough especially if there are more then one attacker making survival already slimmer. I don't want something I depend on trusting a tool with my life to be restricted it doesn't make sense. In many self defense classes you learn that what you have in your gun is all the ammo you have to fight with because in a gunfight seconds matter. If those seconds go to trying to reload that could be your life.

    As for other mods like a bump stock its not effective in combat. Its a recreational thing for fun and not something someone would ever put in a self defense set up. Mods actually make the gun much more functional. A quality sight can help you capture a better sight picture for faster targeting. Lighter triggers can increase rate of fire increasing your capabilities especially when out gunned or out maned. Grips speak for themselves you don't wanna drop the gun especially if your bloody or sweaty. The list goes on but its alot to put down there's books on these subjects however I think you know where I'm going with this.
  • AlofRIAlofRI 906 Pts
    edited September 14
    4Loko said:
    @AlofRI
    I'll say this once because I think it is important in discussing further issues. I am also an NRA member and it was exactly created to protect the 2nd amendment specifically to protect black people from having their gun rights taken away. Gun safety is a part of it but not the reason it was created. The only reason gun laws where created is because it stems from racism. Blacks in the 60s for example arm themselves against the kkk to defend black peoples right to vote and then the government bans carrying guns around. If Democrats (not all) are trying to make money off the gun business and worried about safety they would vote people such as Maj Tour into office. If your wondering who that is its the founder of Black guns matter the entire organization is about gun safety yet they denied him and don't fund him. In the 90s there was an "assault weapons ban" yet crime went down at the same rate its been going down and so after 10 years the ban was lifted. I'm not interested in the democrat vs Republicans trump supporter or not just facts. Thank you for the response!
    You are quite young, obviously. You are quite wrong, obviously. I never liked Kool-Aid even when I was a kid. It's obviously your favorite drink. Enjoy, while America collapses around you. Drink all you can now because if that Kool-Aid becomes the favorite of many more, Ice will be very scarce. 
    By the way. You and your gullible friends should realize that, when your authoritarian government takes over, THEY WILL take your guns. Lifetime Presidents and other "strong leaders", can't afford to have people walking around armed. They run things with an iron hand and that gets kind of sour after a while, so, the guns WILL be collected. You won't give them up?? You WILL, or your family, girlfriend, wife, husband will have an "accident" and the "law" will protect the accident-er. Please, grow up before it's too late, Loko.
    4LokoJohnwik
  • DeeDee 2590 Pts
    @4Loko

    I'm not looking for anyone to agree with me otherwise i would have made a debate not a persuade me which is obvious not what your trying to do.

    What am I trying to do? I asked you one simple question and you do a dance avoiding answering 

    So instead of trying to belittle me I think we can be more civil.

    How am I belittling you ? How was I uncivil?

    Reasons For Owning A Gun
    - Sports
    - Self defense 
    - Hunting
    - Protection from government tyranny 
    - Recreation 


    At last you answer , funny most Americans state for defence , so what’s your reason?

    Your buddy @Johnwik (who I suspect is you as he opened an account and jumped to your defence ) .....He claims for protection 
  • DeeDee 2590 Pts
    @Johnwik

     coming from a fellow in the United Kingdom where they just entered their biggest recession in their history

    I’m not from the UK you clown 

    , than You’re either misinformed or do not care to be informed.

    Well considering you open a second account to defend your first and you call a weapon a tool I don’t think you’re in a position to use terms like ‘informed’ 

     And 2 what question has @4Loko not answered?

    You / he have just attempted an answer .....after 20 odd tries 
    Johnwik
  • 4Loko4Loko 27 Pts
    edited September 14
    @Dee
    I want to make it clear that there is safe and unsafe places everywhere even in the United Kingdom same as the US. Its great that you feel safe i don't feel unsafe either yet good people don't decide when bad things happen. In the UK if someone robbs you at knife point you have to either run (good option) or you have to take it. Here in the US we have another option and thats defense with a firearm. There is nothing wrong with carring a firearm im sure if hypothetically you had one your not gonna hurt anyone with it. Firearms are definitely a tool the definition of a tool is literally "a device or implement, especially one held in hand, used to carry out a particular function".
  • This is my only account you sound the clown here sir are you that really that surprised to see that people may see another side than you? And if you’re not from the United Kingdom where are you from?
    and also @Dee a weapon is a tool change my mind
  • @AlofRI
    I dont know where you got any of that information. Why would you assume kool aid is my favorite drink?
  • @Dee ;
    I got you confused with a diffrent guy for some reason thinking you where from the UK my mistake.
  • JohnwikJohnwik 22 Pts
    edited September 14
    @Dee the more I read your reply’s to @4Loco thread is the more I believe you came to a civil debate unprepared and instead of debating the matter you’ve came to accuse someone of creating 2 accounts to argue with you. You’re delusional my friend @Dee
  • 4Loko4Loko 27 Pts
    edited September 14
    @Dee
    So when someone here has a similar view you assume its me? Okay
    Johnwik
  • 4Loko4Loko 27 Pts
    edited September 14
    @Dee
    The reason many gun owners don't share such information is because nobody needs to know that information. Why do you need to know my reason? However I'll say mine are for all the points I stated. People feel uncomfortable sharing if they have guns or not particularly if its defense because you loose the element of surprise. Also if you tell everyone you have guns in your house the wrong person can find out and possibly rob you while your gone. Just because there are guns here does not mean they are cheap.
  • Guns were introduced into america as a icon for self defense, and it was used for self defense. But remember, this was back when we needed guns against the british and other organizations that were a threat. This govermental regulation of guns were fine, but then the reason for controversy and questions arose when corporates took over the gun industry. The NRA took things in their own hands and started making guns a major buisness. They ignored statistics of the benifits of strictening gun laws and instead looked for profit. No one wants to steal your gun rights, just make the process of owning a gun rigorous and tough, so the guns dont go into the hands of criminals. The NRA wont let the government imply strict gun laws because if they do, the NRA's buisness will go down hard. 
    Johnwik
  • JohnwikJohnwik 22 Pts
    edited September 14
    @kabi do you really believe that after the revolutionary war that there are no possibilities of foreign powers becoming globalists? I ask that as a trick question because we already know the answer with WW1 WW2, in the 1960s KGB defector Yuri bezmenov issued a chilling warning to the United States, mind you that the Cold War never ended officially.
  • @Kabi
    Everyone mentions the NRA but it has very little to do with what lro gun people think. In fact many gun owners and members are furious with the NRA at the moment. If you make the process so difficult to get a gun like New York you are infringing on a right. Not only this statistically this only affects poor people from owning them. In states like New York backround checks aren't free applications arent free licenses are not free etc... most of the time people who need those guns the most are underprivileged people in rough neighborhoods. It doesn't make sense to make it hard to get a gun with over 20,000 gun laws already on the books. Adding more laws is not gonna help and what about the criminals who already have guns? In places with the most gun control like California,  New York, New Jersey, and Chicago have the most crime. While you have a place like EL pasó Texas which is considered one of the safest cities yet its direct neighbor Juarez is one of the murder capitals of the world. There are much deeper problems than guns. Its mental health, its socioeconomics, its gang violence the list goes on.
    Johnwik
  • Loko, good point. Im stating the fact that gun laws should be difucult and that applies to everybody, criminals, civillians, politicians, everyone. I will crucify a point, guns should not be a buisness, no ones right should be a buisness. When we have buisness-mens as our leaders we get put in a situaation where our rights are compromised. Many rights have changed over time. The right to carry a deadly weapon that can end a life in a second should never be something that is available to anybody other than police and military that is govermentally approved. 

    Johnwik
  • John, most countries were under british globilization, and not all countries that were under the british had gun rights. They still overcame them by having a military that was dedicated for these purposes. We have a military for a reason,

    Johnwik
  • DeeDee 2590 Pts
    @4Loko

    I want to make it clear that there is safe and unsafe places everywhere even in the United Kingdom same as the US.

    I still don’t live in the UK 

    Its great that you feel safe i don't feel unsafe either yet good people don't decide when bad things happen.

    Great you don’t need a gun for defence then right ?

     In the UK if someone robbs you at knife point you have to either run (good option) or you have to take it. 

    What has the UK got to do with me?

    Here in the US we have another option and thats defense with a firearm.

    Ahhh so you do need a gun for defence in the US thought you didn’t feel unsafe?

     There is nothing wrong with carring a firearm im sure if hypothetically you had one your not gonna hurt anyone with it. 

    I see plenty wrong with it actually which is why I live in a gun free society 

    Firearms are definitely a tool the definition of a tool is literally "a device or implement, especially one held in hand, used to carry out a particular function".

    A firearm is a weapon it’s function is to kill , a tool is used to carry out tasks that do not include killing or one is using it incorrectly 
  • DeeDee 2590 Pts
    @4Loko

    The reason many gun owners don't share such information is because nobody needs to know that information.

    Most American gun owners actually openly brag about why they carry one 

    Why do you need to know my reason? 

    I don’t really care , if you don’t want to debate don’t I couldn’t care less 

    However I'll say mine are for all the points I stated. People feel uncomfortable sharing if they have guns or not particularly if its defense because you loose the element of surprise. Also if you tell everyone you have guns in your house the wrong person can find out and possibly rob you while your gone. Just because there are guns here does not mean they are cheap.

    That’s relevant how?
  • DeeDee 2590 Pts
    @4Loko

    So when someone here has a similar view you assume its me? Okay

    No I don’t , but in this case the other account only opened and their very first statement was a defence of you , do you deny that ?
    Johnwik
  • DeeDee 2590 Pts
    @Johnwik

    This is my only account you sound the clown here sir

    No it’s not 

    are you that really that surprised to see that people may see another side than you? 

    You mean you and your other account?

    And if you’re not from the United Kingdom where are you from?

    None of your business 


    and also @Dee a weapon is a tool change my mind

    My job is not to educate people who don’t know the difference between a tool and a lethal weapon 
  • @Kabi
    The business that have been in charge of the gun industry have done a fairly good job in that they more often then not create a very functional and reliable product. Its anyones right to have a business including a firearm busines. They provide plenty of well paying jobs and contribute financially to society. There is always a potential for our rights to be compromised thats with anyone in power. The 2nd amendment is the one that protects the rest of your rights. The 2nd amendment is there in case the 1st amendment doesn't work that is why its so important for us to have firearms avaliable. I'm not saying everyone should have a gun because if you don't want one you don't have to have one. However i do think that people have a misconception when it comes to gun owners and thats that the vast majority of us are not criminals or trigger happy or anything like that. Its like a fire extinguisher to most of us you hope you never have to use it but if you ever need it your gonna be glad you have it. The CDC calculate there are about 1 million defense uses of fire arms each year vs 30,000 deaths %60 of which are suicides out of over 300 million people. With that id say we really don't have an issue in fact crime is still going down. 
  • @Dee
    - Most American gun owners actually openly brag about why they carry one.

    And you think this because what? TV? YouTube? Unless you've personally experienced the American gun community you wouldn't know that especially since your not from here.

    - I don't really care, if you don't want to debate dont I could care less.

    Yet you continue to debate when thats not really the purpose of this post. Not to mention you are the one who asked why I need one, but you don't care right? Makes sense.

    - Thats relevant how?

    Its revelent because you literally asked and I gave you the awnser im explaining peoples reasoning. Then you contradict yourself by saying " Really? Wonder why they seem to be so secretive regards sharing them" then you say we talk about carring them? 
  • Kabi said:

    John, most countries were under british globilization, and not all countries that were under the british had gun rights. They still overcame them by having a military that was dedicated for these purposes. We have a military for a reason.

    The 2nd amendment was written not for the military but for if a nation had to fight a military, foreign or domestic.
  • JohnwikJohnwik 22 Pts
    edited September 14
    Dee said:

    No I don’t , but in this case the other account only opened and their very first statement was a defence of you , do you deny that,

    Not at all you 2 were the first on this thread I seen arguing
  • Loko, the buisness in charge of the gun industry is not ethical at all! Those guys wanted to prevent gun control laws back in 1968 that could have helped us by a lot. There is no way nra is ethical. Providing jobs has nothing to do with our topic. Also, if we start killing everybody that pose a threat to us (and call it self defense) we are criminals as well. We have a a law and judicial system for a reason!! The person that commits a actual crime is punished under the law, not by civillians. 
  • @Kabi
    The NRA is very ethical it proctect people inalienable rights. In the 60s they protected black peoples right to own firearms when under the Jim Crow laws that restricted them. The gun industry has not been unethical they provide a product that you may purchase and use as you wish obviously that doesn't mean you murder people that is illegal of course. You may defend yourself under the law in regards to self defense. Nobody should be a vigilanty and kill everyone who poses a threat that is why you remove yourself from those situation if at all possible or descalate the situation. I say this because its relevant to the previous point made that you of course can't go around killing people that pose a threat. Youre right that we have a judicial system to punish criminals but in the moment you can't rely on that system when you are in immediate danger thats self defense and why it exists. When you kill in self defense regardless if its a firearm used or not you are still going to court to explain yourself and the judicial system will decide if it was in fact self defense.


    AlofRIJohnwik
  • @4Loko ;
    I think we'll go with the modifications of firearms. The 9th circuit Court already said it is unconstitutional to restrict magazine capacity. Many people say "high capacity" but these are slandered magazines. There have been countless police officers that have put 10+ bullets onto a suspected to still find them standing and thats one guy. I'm not gonna bet anyone's life on saying that that will be enough especially if there are more then one attacker making survival already slimmer. I don't want something I depend on trusting a tool with my life to be restricted it doesn't make sense. In many self defense classes you learn that what you have in your gun is all the ammo you have to fight with because in a gunfight seconds matter. If those seconds go to trying to reload that could be your life.
    There are a few people out there that for whatever reason can withstand multiple shots, but they are few and far between. The chance you would need to use a gun for protection and be up against someone like that is highly unlikely. The overwhelming majority of people will have their lives permanently altered if not lost by a single shot. In the majority of instances, the very fact that a gun is present is sufficient to deter would be criminals, and there is no statistic on people who fired any shots in order to deter crime, since this would not show up in hospital records and the use of a gun for defense is not reported. This is further complicated because any criminals shot in the act of committing a crime will likely not go to the hospital knowing that the incident would need to be reported to the police. This means that we have no good idea how often a gun is needed to be used for defense in this way.

    As for magazine extensions, the data suggests that the former ban on high capacity magazines did help to minimize gun violence, which has since risen since the ban was allowed to expire. This suggests that if our goal is to minimize gun violence, then we ought restrict high capacity magazines.

    This does not however need to be binary. The same as to drive a large truck or motorcycle requires a different licence, it would be practical and straightforward for a licence to be issued for certain weapons and restrictions based on the type of weapon, that could include high capacity magazines among other things.
    As for other mods like a bump stock its not effective in combat. Its a recreational thing for fun and not something someone would ever put in a self defense set up. Mods actually make the gun much more functional. A quality sight can help you capture a better sight picture for faster targeting. Lighter triggers can increase rate of fire increasing your capabilities especially when out gunned or out maned. Grips speak for themselves you don't wanna drop the gun especially if your bloody or sweaty. The list goes on but its alot to put down there's books on these subjects however I think you know where I'm going with this.
    The overwhelming majority of mods are just fine, and I don't think you will find anyone who thinks that a different grip or sight is not okay who isn't completely opposed to guns already. This isn't one size fits all again, and any regulations would need to be very specific as to what is and is not acceptable.

    That being said, something like a bump stock that has no practical use outside of recreation i think it is harder to make an argument for. They might be a lot of fun, but detonating a nuke on a remote island would also be a lot of fun. Without practical application the argument is a lot weaker, and since these have been a critical component in a mass shooting, I'm not sure there is any strong argument at all.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
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