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Persuade me: Logic needs god to exist

Debate Information

Try your best.
evilsaint
At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
Through a long process of evolution this life 
developed into the human race.
Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

All of that so we can argue about nothing.



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  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3827 Pts   -  
    Here is some food for thought.

    Suppose you are a programmer building a virtual world with NPCs - relative to those NPCs, you are essentially a god. You can program the world any way you want, and it is completely up to you how to organize the laws of logic in this world. You can, in fact, build a world devoid of logic, ridden with random number generators firing up random numbers having profound impact on the virtual world. It will not be a very interesting world to observe, most likely, due to how chaotic and random it would be - but then, perhaps, from the NPCs' perspective, it will make perfect sense, as they will adapt to the chaos and find some unexpected patterns in it.

    But, on the other hand, in order to be able to build such a world in the first place, you need to use some sort of a computer language which is built on the rules of logic. You have no control over those rules: you can build your own programming language, but you will always have to deal with inherent logical rules of the world you are in. You can shape the logical rules of the virtual world you are building any way you want, but the world in which you yourself exist has laws of logic independent of your actions.

    As such, there are multiple levels of logic. If there is god who created the rules of logic in our world, then that god had to operate within certain, "higher-level", rules of logic that do not depend on them. This could be an infinite loop, or, perhaps, not - but there is no escaping the fact that nothing can be done in the absence of logic, as the act of doing something itself then does not mean anything.

    Logic does not need god to exist, but logic can, in principle, be created by a god. It really depends on what level of logic we are talking about.
    LiamThePersonxlJ_dolphin_473
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4994 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior ;

    That's begging the question for p1 & p2. How do you know that immaterial logic needs a god?

    You are assuming the very thing I am asking to be persuaded of.
    SkepticalOnePlaffelvohfenZeusAres42
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3827 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior

    If our world is a simulation (which it, in a way, would have to be if a god had created it), then the separation between material and immaterial does not make much sense, as we all are just bunches of bits (or whatever the creators' computer uses to hold data).

    When you play a video game, you may see NPCs and, say, rules of the game as material and immaterial respectively. The programmer who wrote this game sees these very differently, however.
    ZeusAres42
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4994 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar ;

    Simulation theory is more or less theology for people that aren't theists. The real problem with it is that it just kicks the can down the road so to speak, because at some base level there is a "real" reality, and we might ask if this world has a god or not and logical rules.
    ZeusAres42
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3827 Pts   -  
    @Happy_Killbot

    Absolutely, but I find this theory very interesting. Not because it is plausible (it is not), and not because of any logical considerations (Elon Musk's argument in support of this theory is absolutely horrible) - but because it aligns so well with what we ourselves do, constantly creating virtual worlds, either through programming or fiction writing/shooting. It makes perfect sense to me that we ourselves, upon achieving a certain technological stage, will start creating virtual worlds populated by sentient beings - and it is a fun mental experiment to consider what it would mean if we were such beings ourselves.

    And you are absolutely right: even if we live in a simulation, there is no guarantee that the simulators themselves do not live in a higher-level simulation. A fun idea is to consider a looped simulation: say, someone in our Universe is running a simulation of a different world, in which someone is running a simulation of our world. What happens if we kill the simulator in our world and turn off their computer? I have never found a good answer to this question.
    ZeusAres42
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4994 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior ;
    prove thought and reason are material...  Where did teh laws of logic originate from?
    That's not how "persuade me" works. It's your responsibility to prove your claims & position.

    That's what "Persuade me" means.  :/ 
    ZeusAres42
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4994 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior ;

    Create a room for what? I have plenty of storage space.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4994 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior ;

    Why should I do that? That's not how "Persuade me" works.
    ZeusAres42
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4994 Pts   -  
     @ChristWarrior ;

    That's not very persuasive.

    I'm starting to think you don't have an argument at all.
    ZeusAres42
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4994 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior ;

    Why haven't you provided an argument yet? Is it that you don't know or don't have a good response?
    ZeusAres42
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 621 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar said:
    Here is some food for thought.

    Suppose you are a programmer building a virtual world with NPCs - relative to those NPCs, you are essentially a god. You can program the world any way you want, and it is completely up to you how to organize the laws of logic in this world. You can, in fact, build a world devoid of logic, ridden with random number generators firing up random numbers having profound impact on the virtual world. It will not be a very interesting world to observe, most likely, due to how chaotic and random it would be - but then, perhaps, from the NPCs' perspective, it will make perfect sense, as they will adapt to the chaos and find some unexpected patterns in it.

    But, on the other hand, in order to be able to build such a world in the first place, you need to use some sort of a computer language which is built on the rules of logic. You have no control over those rules: you can build your own programming language, but you will always have to deal with inherent logical rules of the world you are in. You can shape the logical rules of the virtual world you are building any way you want, but the world in which you yourself exist has laws of logic independent of your actions.

    As such, there are multiple levels of logic. If there is god who created the rules of logic in our world, then that god had to operate within certain, "higher-level", rules of logic that do not depend on them. This could be an infinite loop, or, perhaps, not - but there is no escaping the fact that nothing can be done in the absence of logic, as the act of doing something itself then does not mean anything.

    Logic does not need god to exist, but logic can, in principle, be created by a god. It really depends on what level of logic we are talking about.
    I was following you up until you contradicted yourself. First you wrote:-

    You can, in fact, build a world devoid of logic, ridden with random number generators firing up random numbers

    And then followed it up with:-

    There is no escaping the fact that nothing can be done in the absence of logic

    So which one is it?

    Personally, I've met maybe less than ten logical people my entire life, so it is fairly evident to me that lots of things can be done without logic.




    Happy_KillbotZeusAres42
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4994 Pts   -  
    @Nomenclature ;

    That is perfectly consistent in context, your issue here makes no sense.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Starlord616Starlord616 361 Pts   -  
    Try your best.
    what are we defining as logic?
    Thor
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4994 Pts   -  
    @Starlord616 ;

    To put it succinctly, logic is the process by which consistent inferences might be made through the application of structured reasoning.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4994 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior ;

    Are you going to make an argument, or are you just that bad at this?

    You can't succeed if you don't even try.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2609 Pts   -  
    Material = Hardware
    Immaterial = Software

    For logic to exist, all it needs is a Turing machine... The Universe itself happens to be one, so a god is as superfluous as a coat of paint on that Turing machine...
    ZeusAres42
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4994 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior ;

    You haven't made an argument yet, why are you so terrible at this?
    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4994 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior ;

    There is simply no chance you will persuade me, or anyone if you do not make an argument.

    Why is this so hard for you?

    You have not made a logically sound argument thus far.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4994 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior ;

    LMFAO, you think that thought makes matter?

    You really are special, aren't you?

    That isn't what materialism asserts, and it doesn't matter because even if materialism is false that would not persuade me, because another philosophy might be true.
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4994 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior ;

    You are not making an argument for your case.

    Even if materialism is false, that does not prove that logic needs god to exist.

    You need to make an argument for your case, why is this so difficult for you? Do you have brain damage?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4994 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior

    You need to make an argument for your position, you have yet to do that. Why do you find this so challenging?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2609 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior

    We are ourselves smaller Turing machines piggy backing the Universe's computational cycles...
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2609 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior

    Want me to repeat or did you hit a wall?
    ZeusAres42
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2609 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior
    If we are just molecules in motion, as materialism asserts, then how can human make an intellectual case for anything?
    We are ourselves smaller Turing machines piggy backing the Universe's computational cycles... That's how...
    ZeusAres42
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4994 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior ;

    Why won't you make an argument for your position? Materialism is irrelevant to this thread.

    If you would like to talk about something irrelevant, I recommend talking about Ice_Cream. You will eat your Ice_Cream!



    PlaffelvohfenZeusAres42
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2609 Pts   -   edited March 7
    @ChristWarrior

    It has everything to do with your question... An "intellectual case" is just an algorithm...  
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4994 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior ;

    A computer is matter, a computer does logic.

    Matter & energy can do logic, so why do you need a god?
    Plaffelvohfen
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2609 Pts   -  
    @Happy_Killbot
    @ChristWarrior ;

    A computer is matter, a computer does logic.
    Matter & energy can do logic, so why do you need a god?
    It's so simple, how can anyone have difficulty grasping something so basic??  :|
    Happy_Killbot
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2609 Pts   -  
    @Happy_Killbot

    He's actually saying that computers can't compute, while typing on a computer............ 
    Happy_Killbot
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4994 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior ;

    Seriously, answer that. If logic is immaterial, then how does a computer which relies heavily on logic function?
    ZeusAres42
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4994 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior ;

    So you are saying that god programed computers?

    That isn't true for sure. I thought you said humans had free will.
    ZeusAres42
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4994 Pts   -  
    @Plaffelvohfen ;

    Yeah, this guy thinks himself a genius, when in reality he isn't the brightest tool in the cookie jar.
    PlaffelvohfenLiamThePersonZeusAres42
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • Happy_KillbotHappy_Killbot 4994 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior ;

    Just out of curiosity, do you actually think god programed computers? Or are you just trolling because you realized you don't have an argument?
    At some point in the distant past, the universe went through a phase of cosmic inflation,
    Stars formed, planets coalesced, and on at least one of them life took root.
    Through a long process of evolution this life 
    developed into the human race.
    Humans conquered fire, built complex societies and advanced technology .

    All of that so we can argue about nothing.
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2609 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior

    Sure kiddo, keep telling yourself that if it eases your existential angst... The adults in the room know better though...
    ZeusAres42
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • LiamThePersonLiamThePerson 628 Pts   -  
    I feel like all of this 'laws need a law giver' nonsense is just based on the divine fallacy. 
    PlaffelvohfenHappy_KillbotZeusAres42
  • LiamThePersonLiamThePerson 628 Pts   -  
    @ChristWarrior I ought to make my explanation for the origin of logic into my signature. That way, you can't waste time asking me over and over again, then refuting perfectly reasonable arguments. 
  • LiamThePersonLiamThePerson 628 Pts   -  
    Do you not know how big the universe is and therefore how much information one quadrillionth of a percent of its information is?
    Here's a quiz:
    In the Andromeda galaxy, name all atoms being absorbed by its central black hole on the first millisecond of January 1876. 
    Which Plutonian crater is currently facing toward Uranus? 
    At what time was Simon Bolivar born?
    Is Proxima Centauri B habitable?
    What was the first form of life to form in the universe?
    What was the first form of life to go extinct in the universe?
  • piloteerpiloteer 1307 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar said:
    @Happy_Killbot

    Absolutely, but I find this theory very interesting. Not because it is plausible (it is not), and not because of any logical considerations (Elon Musk's argument in support of this theory is absolutely horrible) - but because it aligns so well with what we ourselves do, constantly creating virtual worlds, either through programming or fiction writing/shooting. It makes perfect sense to me that we ourselves, upon achieving a certain technological stage, will start creating virtual worlds populated by sentient beings - and it is a fun mental experiment to consider what it would mean if we were such beings ourselves.

    And you are absolutely right: even if we live in a simulation, there is no guarantee that the simulators themselves do not live in a higher-level simulation. A fun idea is to consider a looped simulation: say, someone in our Universe is running a simulation of a different world, in which someone is running a simulation of our world. What happens if we kill the simulator in our world and turn off their computer? I have never found a good answer to this question.
    https://www.space.com/32543-universe-a-simulation-asimov-debate.html

    You don't absolutely know that the simulation hypothesis is not plausible. You may want to bring your query up with Dr James Gates. When he was in high school, he always wondered why they were all taught that the smallest things in the universe were atoms. But then they were all taught how atoms were made up of protons and neutrons. So if atoms are made up of protons and neutrons, then obviously protons and neutrons are smaller than atoms, so it can't really be said atoms are the smallest things in the universe.

     Dr. Gates set out on a quest to find the smallest things in the universe. He wanted to make sure those things (whatever they are) were not made up of smaller things. He wanted to find something so small that if it were any smaller, it could no longer be considered a "thing" any longer. What he thinks he may have found is that the smallest things that make up our universe are digits of information. And those digits are made up of ones and zeroes. And not only do those digits look like computer code, but that code is a code that was created in 1946 and is still heavily used in computer code to this day. Simulation hypothesis is not "not plausible". It is at least "plausible". Obviously it's far from being a proven scientific truth. But it is at the very least, "plausible".             
    LiamThePerson
  • ThorThor 254 Pts   -   edited March 24
    Well, I had always observed that atheist people are always urging for free factor, recently one debate was posted in which it was asked that if science proved god then what will atheist do, some were saying that do we worship our boss, etc, I was laughing hard after this all. Is god a narcissist?...Atheist actually don’t know or don’t understand the perspective by which theist live, they criticise, western atheist are simply like cancel culture, which is useful and useless at a same time, whatever, coming to your question, Persuade me that logic needs god to exist, god is beyond logic, Ofc logic doesn’t need god to exist, every person has different perspective of living life, and thus some people consider logic as their base, and they are called as atheist, but the logic has its limitations. Our Logic cannot define Infinite, why ?...Because logic says that our universe is infinitely big, numbers can go upto infinite, and that infinite is never defined, so yes logic doesn’t need god to exist, but logic can never define that infinite(god), so here logic fails.

     “Actually, Logic is a very humanly word.”

    @Happy_Killbot
    Peace 
  • Keal192NXQ2Keal192NXQ2 246 Pts   -   edited March 24
    @Thor ;if science proved god then what will atheist do, some were saying that do we worship our boss, etc, I was laughing hard after this all. 

    First of all, proving God would be fruitless, not because it's not possible but because it gives less value than an average scientific theory.

    Simply saying, "God did it." on certain aspects of the unknown in the Universe doesn't give any value as it doesn't explain why, what, where, how and etc. 

    Ok, God did it, And? 

    Proving God gives no value as a scientific theory due to its lack of usefulness. Science will still keep exploring even under the advent of a divine creator.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • ThorThor 254 Pts   -   edited March 25
    @Keal192NXQ2

    First of all fyi, I am Science student, so I am never against it, I consider that understanding science is same as understanding god.

    So if you will debate with me saying hey you are against science, then sorry bring up good arguments.

    proving God would be fruitless...

    I was not asking for an opinion, kindly address the main point of my argument which is logic has its limitations.
    Keal192NXQ2
    Peace 
  • Keal192NXQ2Keal192NXQ2 246 Pts   -  
    @Thor It wasn't a refutation. It's a comment on your reaction to what you saw in a previous debate. :) 
    Thor
  • ThorThor 254 Pts   -  
    @Keal192NXQ2

    Oh okay, but that arguments are ridiculous, boss and god has difference, some people also misunderstand the meaning of gravity by saying that do we worship gravity. What to worship is ofc in their hands, but gravity is a part of universe and so of god. This type of materialistic analogies are only given by atheist, because they are materialistic.

    Well, thanks for your clarity, but I still consider them ridiculous, because your comment was irrelevant with mine. 
    Peace 
  • Keal192NXQ2Keal192NXQ2 246 Pts   -  
    @Thor because your comment was irrelevant with mine. 

    Understood. Perhaps you can join me in the debate aforementioned here if it ever comes up again.
    Thor
  • evilsaintevilsaint 22 Pts   -  
    there happens to be a intellegent and then the intellegence that grew the grown
    while the resident will carry the captured pictures of the data that need the shell of the sole human to .

    the data is simply a regulator to moments and talk .
    what if the way to he house was lost in the big wide world ..


    the more was self decepline that made the more come forth the reasoning ..

     the logic better not need the god when the math is of good to use and bad to deny .

    the self reliant good space where there is a guide that you made possible has to have a resident to make the side a different of either and either ..

    like the win and the other side.
    there is only some logical matters that could make the possibility of right approach .
    its a loss but later the rationality is the thinking that is shared by all the logical of a sort 
     @Happy_Killbot
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