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The Wurst

Debate Information

Arguably, three of the most notorious charlatans of all time were Jim Jones, Adolf Hitler and (the alleged) Jesus Christ.
Although Hitler did not lead a religious cult, he was known to be devoutly Catholic and clearly let it be known that he had a mandate from God to carry out the elimination of Jews. He was also fully backed and financed by the Catholic Church.

But let's take a look at the facts:

Adolf Hitler was a distinguished soldier, fine dresser, a vegetarian, a non smoker, and drank very little. He was known to have been responsible for the killing of six million Jews during the holocaust.

Jim Jones was a charismatic rapist who was responsible for the murder of over nine hundred of his followers.

(The alleged, by some) Jesus Christ was a low-paid hippie-like carpenter's laborer who, like Jones conned his followers into believing that he was the son of God. He was responsible for the persecution and murder of more than over 8 million of his deluded followers.

You be the judge. Who was the worst of the worst?
LiamThePersonTreeManJeffreyBlankenship



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  • JeffreyBlankenshipJeffreyBlankenship 190 Pts   -  
    Your facts are more skewed then your brain. 
    PlaffelvohfenLiamThePersonTreeMan
  • LiamThePersonLiamThePerson 607 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw Don't be a liability to atheism by sinking to the level of skewing facts in your favor. Nontheism has enough support even without these crimes against the truth. 
    1. Hitler's religion was not known. Although he was raised catholic, he at least had anti-clerical sentiments while dictator. We simply don't have enough evidence that he was nontheist or catholic by the time of his government. 
    2. Your characterization of Hitler as "a distinguished soldier, fine dresser, a vegetarian, a non smoker[sic], and drank very little" is misleading to make him look better than he was. You could do that with Jim Jones or Jesus of Nazareth, too.
    3. Your statement that "[Jesus of Nazareth caused] the persecution and murder of more than over 8 million of his deluded followers." is blaming the victim. It's not anyone's fault that they're persecuted unless they've committed a crime. It's the fault of the persecutors. Would you say that Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens have caused the rampant persecution of nontheists in the United States?

    Now, to answer your question: Hitler, without a doubt. 

    PlaffelvohfenTreeManJeffreyBlankenship
  • AlofRIAlofRI 1390 Pts   -  
    Never hold the son responsible for the sins of the father. :unamused:
  • SwolliwSwolliw 807 Pts   -  
    @JeffreyBlankenship
    Your facts are more skewed then your brain. 

    They are not "my" facts. They are indisputable established facts.

    May I also remind you that making insulting personal attacks goes against the rules of the site and if you wish to maintain that kind of dialogue, I suggest you take it elsewhere. 

  • SwolliwSwolliw 807 Pts   -  
    @LiamThePerson
    Hitler's religion was not known.

    Yes it was. Fact: he was Catholic, as stated.

    Your characterization of Hitler as "a distinguished soldier, fine dresser, a vegetarian, a non smoker[sic], and drank very little" is misleading to make him look better than he was. You could do that with Jim Jones or Jesus of Nazareth, too.

    My characterization of Hitler was not misleading, it is 100% correct and it was used to highlight the fact that he was probably more socially adept than Christ.

    Your statement that "[Jesus of Nazareth caused] the persecution and murder of more than over 8 million of his deluded followers." is blaming the victim.

    I stated that Christ was "responsible" for the persecution.........

    You will find that my OP is well researched, accurate, and properly directed to make the point.

  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1524 Pts   -  
    The Wurst??

    Liver or Brat?
    LiamThePerson
  • DeeDee 3940 Pts   -   edited April 29
    @LiamThePerson


    . Your statement that "[Jesus of Nazareth caused] the persecution and murder of more than over 8 million of his deluded followers." is blaming the victim. It's not anyone's fault that they're persecuted unless they've committed a crime. It's the fault of the persecutors. Would you say that Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens have caused the rampant persecution of nontheists in the United States?



    leaving that point aside one can reasonably make the case that Jesus being the son of god totally approved of gods slaughter of 25 million of his creations all because god was  in a rage that his subjects believed in other gods , chose to ignore him or adored other gods  or sexual practices or customs as demanded by him 

    It’s exactly like saying that Goering and Himmler totally approved of Hitlers actions and if one thinks Hitler insane how can one accept as reasonable people who worship a mass murderer who’s kill rate exceeds Stalin and Hitlers ? 

    Whats even worse is society openly accepts these religions as a societal norm when their teachings and behaviors from such continue to victimize , brutalise and slaughter around the world and have done so since they were first formed 

    Hitler and Stalin were choirboys compared to the Christian god and what astounds me even now is that anyone taking the words of the Bible to demonstrate such is branded “insane” and the ones supporting such are deemed “devout “ , “pious” and “holy” .....




    Historian Snyder estimates that Hitler was responsible for between 11 million and 12 million noncombatant deaths, while Stalin was responsible for at least 6 million, and as many as 9 million if “foreseeable” deaths caused by deportation, starvation, and incarceration in concentration camps are included.


    My estimate after research for the Christian god 
     .....25 million + 


    Would you say that Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens have caused the rampant persecution of nontheists in the United States?

    What “rampant persecution”  of non theists  has taken place?






    TreeMan
  • LiamThePersonLiamThePerson 607 Pts   -  
    Dee said:
    @LiamThePerson


    . Your statement that "[Jesus of Nazareth caused] the persecution and murder of more than over 8 million of his deluded followers." is blaming the victim. It's not anyone's fault that they're persecuted unless they've committed a crime. It's the fault of the persecutors. Would you say that Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens have caused the rampant persecution of nontheists in the United States?



    leaving that point aside one can reasonably make the case that Jesus being the son of god totally approved of gods slaughter of 25 million of his creations all because god was  in a rage that his subjects believed in other gods , chose to ignore him or adored other gods  or sexual practices or customs as demanded by him 

    It’s exactly like saying that Goering and Himmler totally approved of Hitlers actions and if one thinks Hitler insane how can one accept as reasonable people who worship a mass murderer who’s kill rate exceeds Stalin and Hitlers ? 

    Whats even worse is society openly accepts these religions as a societal norm when their teachings and behaviors from such continue to victimize , brutalise and slaughter around the world and have done so since they were first formed 

    Hitler and Stalin were choirboys compared to the Christian god and what astounds me even now is that anyone taking the words of the Bible to demonstrate such is branded “insane” and the ones supporting such are deemed “devout “ , “pious” and “holy” .....




    Historian Snyder estimates that Hitler was responsible for between 11 million and 12 million noncombatant deaths, while Stalin was responsible for at least 6 million, and as many as 9 million if “foreseeable” deaths caused by deportation, starvation, and incarceration in concentration camps are included.


    My estimate after research for the Christian god 
     .....25 million + 


    Would you say that Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens have caused the rampant persecution of nontheists in the United States?

    What “rampant persecution”  of non theists  has taken place?






    This is a partial straw man here. I'm an agnostic deist, not a Christian, so I don't believe that Jesus of Nazareth was a deity. Assuming he existed, which is the scholarly consensus, he was just a preacher who made his own religion, spread some pretty decent messages, and mixed in a few bad messages to boot. He was most certainly not a deity and was most certainly not responsible for those deaths. 
  • LiamThePersonLiamThePerson 607 Pts   -  
    Swolliw said:
    @LiamThePerson
    Hitler's religion was not known.

    Yes it was. Fact: he was Catholic, as stated.

    Your characterization of Hitler as "a distinguished soldier, fine dresser, a vegetarian, a non smoker[sic], and drank very little" is misleading to make him look better than he was. You could do that with Jim Jones or Jesus of Nazareth, too.

    My characterization of Hitler was not misleading, it is 100% correct and it was used to highlight the fact that he was probably more socially adept than Christ.

    Your statement that "[Jesus of Nazareth caused] the persecution and murder of more than over 8 million of his deluded followers." is blaming the victim.

    I stated that Christ was "responsible" for the persecution.........

    You will find that my OP is well researched, accurate, and properly directed to make the point.

    It's a fact that he was raised catholic, but because of his anticlerical rhetoric, it's feasible he has deconverted by that point. 

    Something can be misleading and correct. You can say that you've "Effectively repaired a vital channel of water to a high-traffic site" when you've just screwed in a pipe under your sink. It's technically true, but it's misleading. I'm not sure how you can possibly say you haven't biased these descriptions.

    I'm sure your post properly directed to make a point, but it's obviously misleading. You've even painted Hitler as a nice, classy guy who just happened to perpetrate a massive racist genocide. 
  • mickygmickyg 340 Pts   -  

    CHRISTIANITY IS THE MOST EVIL DISEASE TO INFECT OUR PLANET
    christians have been murdering jews for 1700 years,culminating with hitler..to appease world history the christian united nations voted to give arab land to the jews.....the jews have taken the deal to be quiet about the holocaust but the arabs are not happy.. @JeffreyBlankenship
    TreeManJeffreyBlankenshipLiamThePerson
  • JeffreyBlankenshipJeffreyBlankenship 190 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw. Indisputable? You are taking what is fact and then twisting it to some absurd level!
    LiamThePerson
  • SwolliwSwolliw 807 Pts   -  
    @LiamThePerson
    I'm sure your post properly directed to make a point, but it's obviously misleading. You've even painted Hitler as a nice, classy guy who just happened to perpetrate a massive racist genocide. 

    It's what us literary informed intellects call a paradox, a perfectly acceptable tool to use. It is only those who lack a modicum of intellect or who wish to interpret for their own nefarious ends who will try and make it out to be other than what the phrase was intended for.

    It's a fact that he was raised catholic, but because of his anticlerical rhetoric, it's feasible he has deconverted by that point. 

    Incorrect, Hitler was a Catholic and he claimed so in many of his speeches and in Mein Kampf. What you mean by "anticlerical rhetoric" is anybody's guess and is no doubt incorrect but Hitler has stated that it was on God's advice that he invade Poland and it was God's will that he resolved the "Jewish problem" which was fully backed-up by the Vatican. In fact, both Hitler and the Catholic Church together labelled the Jews as the "Anti-Christ". Indeed, the Catholic Church supported the Nazi Party and financially funded it. Was Hitler a Catholic?..........Is the Pope a Catholic?

    In any case, I couldn't really give a toss whether Hitler was Catholic since politicians and indeed, most people who identify with a particular faith do so for their own gain or benefit and will not necessarily believe the supernatural crap that goes with it. I mean, Hitler was a nut case all right, but he wasn't that crazy.

    That reminds me of a rather pointed OP I made once. I think I will revive it, stay posted.

  • Cringe_TrainCringe_Train 217 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw

    I don't think "charismatic" and "rapist" should go together in a sentence. 
  • SwolliwSwolliw 807 Pts   -  
    @Cringe_Train
    I don't think "charismatic" and "rapist" should go together in a sentence. 

    I get your point there. It is usually someone who is completely devoid of charisma who would resort to committing rape. In the case of Jones, he used his charisma to manipulate women into ripping their clothes off for him. I suppose the argument is should anyone who is naive and gullible enough to fall under the spell of a charlatan, be called a victim? 

    Sounds like a new OP, I think Wait for it.

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