to tell the truth? - The Best Online Debate Website | DebateIsland.com - Debate Anything The Best Online Debate Website | DebateIsland.com
frame

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

DebateIsland.com is the largest online debate website globally by activity where anyone can anonymously and easily debate online, casually or formally, while connecting with their friends and others. Users, regardless of debating skill level, can civilly debate just about anything online in a text-based online debate website that supports five easy-to-use and fun debating formats ranging from Casual, to Formalish, to Lincoln-Douglas Formal. In addition, people can improve their debating skills with the help of revolutionary artificial intelligence-powered technology on our debate website. DebateIsland is totally free and provides the best online debate experience of any debate website.









DebateIsland Referral Program: Get a Free Month of DebateIsland Diamond Premium Membership ($4.99 Value) Per Each New User That You Refer!

to tell the truth?

Debate Information

deceptions and lies. are they biologically built into humans, hardwired into the brain, or a learned behavior/?
«13



Debra AI Prediction

Predicted To Win
Predicted 2nd Place
11%
Margin

Details +




Post Argument Now Debate Details +

    Arguments


  • ThorThor 254 Pts   -  
    @maxx

    Actually I am uncertain about it, can you present your stance so we can discuss it. 
    Peace 
  • maxxmaxx 669 Pts   -  
     I think that deception is a nature part of life, in all aspects of it, for it can assist in the survival of the individual or species. bear in  mind, i am talking about how it is built into us; not how lies are used in todays world.   Does Biology Make us Liars? | The New Republic@Thor
  • ThorThor 254 Pts   -  
    @maxx

    for it can assist in the survival of the individual or species...
    I find it hard to understand that how it would assist in our(humans) “survival”.

    Please can you provide me some examples on this assertion?
    Peace 
  • maxxmaxx 669 Pts   -  
    Again I am discussing why and when, not how it affects us today.  Remember, our genes puts the individual first, as well as our cells. if it is beneficial to the cells and survival of our genes, then deception may help. We may lie to the rest of the tribe for additional nourishment.  Passing on our genes.  Even today, as well as through out history, men and women have deceived in order  to get a better mate. Just for instance, we of today, use deception in the guise of make up.@Thor
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 221 Pts   -  
    maxx said:
    Again I am discussing why and when, not how it affects us today.  Remember, our genes puts the individual first, as well as our cells. if it is beneficial to the cells and survival of our genes, then deception may help. We may lie to the rest of the tribe for additional nourishment.  Passing on our genes.  Even today, as well as through out history, men and women have deceived in order  to get a better mate. Just for instance, we of today, use deception in the guise of make up.@Thor
    As we evolve, all we do all day is either compete or cooperate.

    Do you see deception as cooperating or competing?

    I can see white lies as cooperation and good, but the more greed based lies as evil and competition born.
     
    We tend to default to cooperation, as that is the best survival strategy, and only compete when trying to show we are the fittest.

    Regards
    DL
  • ThorThor 254 Pts   -  
    @maxx

    Yes obviously how it affect in today’s world is not a point for now. I am more interested in knowing first that why it would be important for survival.

    Remember, our genes puts the individual first, as well as our cells. if it is beneficial to the cells and survival of our genes...
    okay genes would put ourselves first. But deception would be a way for every time is hard to believe. It would highly depend on situation. 

    I again find it hard to get that it would be essential for “survival” because I find it a highly situational and incomplete conclusion.

    Even today, as well as through out history, men and women have deceived in order to get a better mate...
    Yeah I do agree for today. But it would again depend on situation and person.

    If you think in deep that if deception would be a way for every man and woman then you are wrong, Because it would depend on the person.

    For eg:- I don’t like to go to gym and all’s whereas many Male like to show their biceps etc to attract women. I think yoga and meditation is a surest way to be fit not by showing body.

    Similarly most woman like to do makeup whereas some also like to show their natural beauty(without makeup).

    So you can see it would depend on person. “Deception is not a fact.”
    GnosticChristian
    Peace 
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 221 Pts   -  
    Thor said:
    @maxx

    Yes obviously how it affect in today’s world is not a point for now. I am more interested in knowing first that why it would be important for survival.


    Cooperation with the most is the best survival strategy.

    If we are not friends, and a small deception makes us so, then our lie has enhanced our chances of survival.

    Think in terms of, third man in, and it becomes simple to fathom.

    Regards
    DL
  • maxxmaxx 669 Pts   -  
    i doubt that, we decieve, we control and even flee, etc.  none iof that is competeness or cooperation@GnosticChristian
    GnosticChristian
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 221 Pts   -  
    maxx said:
    i doubt that, we decieve, we control and even flee, etc.  none iof that is competeness or cooperation@GnosticChristian
    I gave an argument.

    Thanks for not reciprocating with a rebutal.

    If you cannot see fight or flight, deception and control as components of cooperation and competition, you think too shallow for me to bother with on this issue. 

    Regards
    DL
  • ThorThor 254 Pts   -  
    @GnosticChristian

    Thank you for taking interest in the debate.

    If we are not friends, and a small deception makes us so, then our lie has enhanced our chances of survival...
    Okay cooperation would enhance our survival but deception would not be required every time.

    Lies are required to make things better but it can also make things worse.

    For eg:- Lies are highly toxic for relationship with friends or partner.

    It is probable that it would be harmful to cooperation. So it would again depend on situation.
    GnosticChristian
    Peace 
  • maxxmaxx 669 Pts   -   edited May 25
    finwe by me; perhaps you would explain how flight , for running and hiding to ensure survival, is part of cooperation or competitivness.  you made the assertion. all we do iseither compete or cooperate. sounds like an opinion.  there are many things we do during the day that has nothing to do with either. how about eating? rest? reading, etc?  as well you spoke of it in relation to evoluition. do emotions and character traits all have to do with competeing or cooperation?  How about exactly telling me what you are saying for you assertions can mean anything or nothiong. @GnosticChristian
    GnosticChristian
  • maxxmaxx 669 Pts   -   edited May 25
    children from the age of two have to be "taught" that lying is wrong. If not taught by parents and or society then they will lie when and as they see fit. This shows that  deception is an automatic behavior and all automatic behaviorisms, at one point in evolution, had some sort of survival value, either,to our cells, the individuals, or the species as a whole. deception is built into all species, including but not limited to other primates.  Humans are but a small evolutionary upgrade from the species that we originated from, yet we retain almost all of the same behaviorisms;  here is spomething that you may relate with.Lies, All Lies!: The Appeal of Deception - Criminal Element @Thor
  • maxx said:
    Again I am discussing why and when, not how it affects us today.  Remember, our genes puts the individual first, as well as our cells. if it is beneficial to the cells and survival of our genes, then deception may help. We may lie to the rest of the tribe for additional nourishment.  Passing on our genes.  Even today, as well as through out history, men and women have deceived in order  to get a better mate. Just for instance, we of today, use deception in the guise of make up.@Thor
    The basic problem Maxx is our cells can be placed in other hosts and may outsurvive us by the forces and actions of that genetic doing outside our own. The genetic compatibility as a whole truth is left uncompromised.
  • ThorThor 254 Pts   -   edited May 25
    @maxx

    children from the age of two have to be "taught" that lying is wrong. If not taught by parents and or society then they will lie when and as they see fit...
    It is taught that lying is wrong because we have to teach them that how they have to differentiate between right and wrong. Here again society plays a central role that how world would work for them or us. 

    For eg:- Two year girl don’t know that what is makeup, they learn it from their mother or friends. 

    Lol every time we both oppose from one common thing in which you say that it is inherent and I say that society is the origin.

    Your article was interesting but it was more informative  and concluding than proper reasoning.

    This is from the article-

    “Several possible reasons occur to me, but I think the main reason involves the strange and powerful position that deception itself occupies in human nature.

    To begin with, consider the conflicts that are inherent in lying. We hate liars, yet none of us is completely truthful. We view mendacity in others as a serious fault, a moral failing, a despicable behavior; yet it is a fundamental survival strategy deeply ingrained in us by evolution. Children lie and engage in sophisticated manipulation, it would seem, almost from the moment they are capable of distinguishing between themselves and other people.”

    This was the main paragraph yet it didn’t explain why.

    Peace 
  • MrDebatePerson2MrDebatePerson2 184 Pts   -  
    God created man, man sinned, lies became part of man, and it was passed down through all the generations, I am giving an oversimplified response.
    GnosticChristianPlaffelvohfen
  • MrDebatePerson2MrDebatePerson2 184 Pts   -   edited May 25
    Bella DePaulo, Ph.D., a psychologist at the University of Virginia, here is one of her articles:

    "Women are more likely to tell altruistic lies to avoiding hurting other people’s feelings, and men are more likely to lie about themselves. De Paulo found that men lie more often to impress. A typical conversation between two guys contains about eight times as many self-oriented lies as it does lies about others.


    Your Brain On Lies


    Three key parts of our brain are stimulated when we lie. First, the frontal lobe (of the neocortex), which has the ability to suppress truth—yes, it’s capable of dishonesty due to its intellectual role. Second, the limbic system due to the anxiety (hi, amygdala!) that comes with deception—and yes, when we’re lied to our “Spiderman sense” here can perk up, just as we can feel guilty/stressed when we’re doing the lying. And third, the temporal lobe is involved because it’s responsible for retrieving memories and creating mental imagery. Just for fun, add the anterior cingulate cortex because it helps in monitoring errors, and the dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex because it is trying all the while to control our behavior. Our brain is busy, busy, busy when we lie.

    And it’s far more peaceful when we tell the truth, because our limbic systems isn’t stressed about lying and our frontal lobe isn’t inhibiting the truth."


    So we aren't taught to lie, we simply are born with the instinct to lie, like a squirrel, they aren't taught how to harvest nuts or to climb tree, it is their instinct much like it is our instinct to lie. And this fits with what the Bible says,

    In John 8:44, we see a story unfolding - "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." (NIV)

    The Message translation reads: "You're from your father, the Devil, and all you want to do is please him. He was a killer from the very start. He couldn't stand the truth because there wasn't a shred of truth in him. When the Liar speaks, he makes it up out of his lying nature and fills the world with lies."

    So I say that we are not taught to lie, we are born with the sinful way of lying.

    GnosticChristian
  • maxxmaxx 669 Pts   -  
    Let us back up a bit  . Do you agree that all species, including marine, and plants engage in deceptions? I am sure that you do.now we jump to primates, such as chimps. Science has shown that they decieve each other. As well, if we go backwards we eventually would see ancient animals in the act of deception. Bring it forward again. You can clearly see an evolutionary theme. Deception evolved from the earliest lifeforms to the present life forms. This can be done only if it is passed on genetically.@Thor
  • ThorThor 254 Pts   -  
    @maxx

    Lol you are so predictable. You came on animals now.

    maxx said:
    Let us back up a bit  . Do you agree that all species, including marine, and plants engage in deceptions? I am sure that you do.now we jump to primates, such as chimps. Science has shown that they decieve each other. As well, if we go backwards we eventually would see ancient animals in the act of deception. Bring it forward again. You can clearly see an evolutionary theme. Deception evolved from the earliest lifeforms to the present life forms. This can be done only if it is passed on genetically.@Thor

    Actually, it is very “concluding” and simple. But I cannot understand the logic behind it that how exactly it would help us (homo sapiens) to survive?
    Peace 
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 221 Pts   -  
    Thor said:
    @GnosticChristian

    Thank you for taking interest in the debate.

    If we are not friends, and a small deception makes us so, then our lie has enhanced our chances of survival...
    Okay cooperation would enhance our survival but deception would not be required every time.

    Lies are required to make things better but it can also make things worse.

    For eg:- Lies are highly toxic for relationship with friends or partner.

    It is probable that it would be harmful to cooperation. So it would again depend on situation.
    Indeed.

    As I stated, intent is everything, even with friends and partners.

    Regards
    DL 
    Thor
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 221 Pts   -  
    maxx said:
    finwe by me; perhaps you would explain how flight , for running and hiding to ensure survival, is part of cooperation or competitivness.  you made the assertion. all we do iseither compete or cooperate. sounds like an opinion.  there are many things we do during the day that has nothing to do with either. how about eating? rest? reading, etc?  as well you spoke of it in relation to evoluition. do emotions and character traits all have to do with competeing or cooperation?  How about exactly telling me what you are saying for you assertions can mean anything or nothiong. @GnosticChristian
    I will do my best but, you are not quite grasping things.

    Questions are often the best way.

    Are you cooperating with your will to survive and selfish gene if you run from what you see as dangerous to your life?

    Is running away not enhancing your chances of survival?

    Regards
    DL

  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 221 Pts   -  
    God created man, man sinned, lies became part of man, and it was passed down through all the generations, I am giving an oversimplified response.
    If you are a believer, we were created in the image of god, --- a sinner. Right?

    Regards
    DL
  • maxxmaxx 669 Pts   -   edited May 25
    Stick tothe topic or go find anotherpost. Ill reort spamming fast@GnosticChristian
  • maxxmaxx 669 Pts   -  
    stick to the topic. if i wanted this on a rligiouis venue, i would have put it there@MrDebatePerson2
  • maxxmaxx 669 Pts   -  
    tou are grasping at straws. your will to survive is not separate from yourself. that is as inane as saying i am cooperating with my nuerons @GnosticChristian
    GnosticChristian
  • maxxmaxx 669 Pts   -  
    Nature’s cheats: how animals and plants trick and deceive (theconversation.com)  of course if i recall correctly; you seemed to believe that early hominoids had no food shortage, so i guess that we are at odds on early humans using deception for that purpose.  we can then jump to survival of the species as a whole, which means lying in ways  to ensure the best possible mate(s) to ensure the continuation of the genes and dna. hoswever, my main point is that it is(deception) built in to all species and there is no need to learn it, for it comes natural to all lifeforms@Thor
    ThorGnosticChristian
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1603 Pts   -  
    maxx said:
    finwe by me; perhaps you would explain how flight , for running and hiding to ensure survival, is part of cooperation or competitivness.  

    It's competition.  If you're running from a bear, you don't need to fastest person on Earth, you just need to be faster than the other guy.   :)
    GnosticChristian
  • ThorThor 254 Pts   -  
    @maxx

    Well, by your article I am convinced that deception can play a major role in survival of plants and animals.

    you seemed to believe that early hominoids had no food shortage, so I guess that we are at odds on early humans using deception for that purpose...
    No it doesn’t prove anything. We cannot say that deception would be a survival factor from this.

    we can then jump to survival of the species as a whole, which means lying in ways  to ensure the best possible mate(s) to ensure the continuation of the genes and dna. hoswever, my main point is that it is(deception) built in to all species and there is no need to learn it, for it comes natural to all lifeforms...
    Humans are social animals. So for humans I am still uncertain that how deception would help in our “survival”?
    GnosticChristian
    Peace 
  • maxxmaxx 669 Pts   -  
    you are not competeing for anything other than survival@CYDdharta
  • maxxmaxx 669 Pts   -  
    all mammals are social creatures so you can not single humans out in that regard.  all mammals engage in deceptive behavior; among other species as well. The main three commponets for deception is food, trickery to fool a predator, and to gain better and more mates to pass on the genes for the species survival. I do believe that you are still looking at the situation through the way things affect us in todays world instead of the early evolutionary reason behind it. Let us reverse this for a second; tell me "why" deception has no evolutionary survival value since it is so prevalant in all species.@Thor
  • ThorThor 254 Pts   -   edited May 26
    @maxx

    tell me "why" deception has no evolutionary survival value since it is so prevalant in all species...
    Exactly if deception is prevalent in “all” species then explain me how it helps in survival of “Human Beings”?

    You cannot conclude it from the logic that if it is prevalent for flora-fauna then it is also prevalent for human beings, you should also explain the logic behind it for us?
    Peace 
  • maxxmaxx 669 Pts   -  
    You have been . This is not a religious topic. Find another post if you wish to talk religion. This is my post,  it is a science platform@MrDebatePerson2
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2609 Pts   -  
    @maxx

    "lies" and deception are biological impulse present in most life forms... Predators need to deceive their prey and preys need to deceive their predator in order to survive...  Camouflage is the most common form of deception/lie for both predator and prey... 
    GnosticChristian
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 221 Pts   -  
    Thor said:
    @maxx


    Humans are social animals. So for humans I am still uncertain that how deception would help in our “survival”?
    Imaginary scenario.

    Think of what you lied to your favorite aunt about and why you did it.

    I am thinking here of her giving you an Xmas tie or other gift that was ugly.

    Your lie helped your chances of survival as the social animal you recognize yourself to be.

    Regards
    DL 



     
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 221 Pts   -  
    Id 10 t , we were created in the image of God, then we sinned, before, there was no sin, make sense?

    we were created, no sin, then Adam and Eve sinned, then there was sin, and we were separated from God.

    Maybe you should study the Bible more. @GnosticChristian
    So you are saying that god is a sinner and created us to be like him. The bible agrees.

    Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

    Is that why Christians sing that Adam's sin is a happy fault and necessary to god's plan?

    Is that why you love sin? It is what is keeping Yahweh's plan on track. Right?

    I have studied the bible more than you have, it seems, as you think an omnipresent god can somehow be separated from us.

    Your god is even in hell says scriptures. Try reading it.

    Regards
    DL

  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 221 Pts   -  
    @maxx

    "lies" and deception are biological impulse present in most life forms... Predators need to deceive their prey and preys need to deceive their predator in order to survive...  Camouflage is the most common form of deception/lie for both predator and prey... 
    Nicely put.

    Our deceptive nature is also great in terms of producing humor.

    Humans really love to laugh and deception in tricks and jokes contribute greatly to the joy of life.

    Regards
    DL
  • maxxmaxx 669 Pts   -  
    your'e nothing but a little mor plus on.  only here to use this s t ie as a soiunding board to argue your anti religious views.  just a brain dead jack @GnosticChristian @GnosticChristian
    GnosticChristian
  • LegacyLegacy 19 Pts   -  
    Lying is okay, as long as the consequences of it have more benefits than negatives and do not harm any others. I
    GnosticChristianMrDebatePerson2
  • maxxmaxx 669 Pts   -   edited May 28
    I am not saying that deception in one species has any value across other species. The use and value of deception depends on how the species evolved it.  For instance, how the venus fly trap uses it would not do humans any good. The value of deception depends on the species. As well I am also not saying that deception has any value on every aspect of survival.; it would do little good in building an emergency shelter unless it was built to hide from an predator or enemy. Now let us jump to todays world and your social reason. we all wear masks; every single day. we wear one in interaction with strangers, another type for friends and family, a different type for co-workers, one for your mate. These masks are worn and changed as we encounter different people and situations. We never take them off unless entirely alone.Deception is prevelant in all aspects of social life. we wear them so no one can see who we really are and how we really our for that would give them control and advantage over you. Trace this mask wearing back into time and we find all humans have worn them. This mask wearing is automatic, and automatic behaviorisms are inherant  so deception is built in to us.@Thor
  • ThorThor 254 Pts   -  
    @maxx

    Yes you are true that many people have mask worn and they show different colours in front of different people. And I just hate that. But still it depends on person to person, it is not a fact. Some people also like to show their original self.

    So I am still uncertain that how would deception help in our survival?
    GnosticChristian
    Peace 
  • SwolliwSwolliw 937 Pts   -  
    @maxx
    Do not use my post as a sounding board for your anti religious attitude. This post is about if deception is built into humans and the survival value of it

    No. This is a public forum for your information, and you have no right to dictate to others (especially since you are very wrong) your own rules.

    If you don't like it, then "tough luck".

  • maxxmaxx 669 Pts   -   edited May 28
    No. My post. It is on a science genre it has nothing to do with religion. You are incorrect, however, considering this debate seems to be just between Thor and I, we will just mute you and you can take your obsessesion and gone hang your thing elsewhere@Swolliw
    Thor
  • maxxmaxx 669 Pts   -  
    Well!  Okay  deception.  What was beneficial and useful in early humans probably is not at all useful for survival in the world of today.  Also  just like anger, deception is not useful for survival in all situations, just some, like the few that I pointed out.  However, you want me to list specific examples on how deception was useful in early humans for survival. This I will do when I get home for a proper reply is hard to do at work. Remember, the examples will only reflect how it existed in early humans, not we of today@Thor
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 221 Pts   -  
    Thor said:
    @maxx

    Yes you are true that many people have mask worn and they show different colours in front of different people. And I just hate that. But still it depends on person to person, it is not a fact. Some people also like to show their original self.

    So I am still uncertain that how would deception help in our survival?
    Think women and makeup, bras, girdles and how some of us might not be here if daddy or grand daddy had not been deceived.

    Think men and shaving, bragging and the other gut sucking we girdle up for.

    Regards
    DL
     
  • maxxmaxx 669 Pts   -  
    not the pointg of my post, but yes sex is part of deception in the genes attempt to pass on their genetics to as many as mates as possible. If you take time to read the OP, it is if not deception is inherant@GnosticChristian
  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 221 Pts   -  
    maxx said:
    Well!  Okay  deception.  What was beneficial and useful in early humans probably is not at all useful for survival in the world of today.  Also  just like anger, deception is not useful for survival in all situations, just some, like the few that I pointed out.  However, you want me to list specific examples on how deception was useful in early humans for survival. This I will do when I get home for a proper reply is hard to do at work. Remember, the examples will only reflect how it existed in early humans, not we of today@Thor
    Why exempt today?

    We still try to deceive.

    Nothing about our instincts has changed. Only how we express it.

    Regards
    DL
  • maxxmaxx 669 Pts   -  
    because in todays world, most deception has little survival value as it did in early humans and homoids. the survival value back then was much more prevelant in deception. today we build a shelter in the wilderness for fun or emergency survival but back then we hid it(deception) to ensure our survival @GnosticChristian
    GnosticChristian
  • SwolliwSwolliw 937 Pts   -  
    @maxx
    No. My post. It is on a science genre it has nothing to do with religion.

    What? It has everything to do with religion, and I quote the first three words from your OP, "deceptions and lies".

  • JoeKerrJoeKerr 96 Pts   -  
    I don't believe I would be telling a lie if I said that each and every one of us has at some stage in our lives has told a lie, maybe even more than a few lies.
    I also believe that as we grow older most of us have no inclination to lie, and leave lying to the insecure, the scam artists, and con men.
    However, I think there are times when what could be called a little white lie is the sensible option. For example, if your wife was examining herself in the mirror wearing the new dress she had just bought, and she asks you, "Does my rear look big in this?", it would take a very brave man to answer in the affirmative!

    GnosticChristian
  • ThorThor 254 Pts   -   edited May 29
    @GnosticChristian

    Think women and makeup, bras, girdles and how some of us might not be here if daddy or grand daddy had not been deceived...

    Lol you mean man is “always” deceived to marry a woman. Which is obviously not true every time man may not also choose their partner from outer appearance, and it goes same for woman choosing man.

    One cannot give the examples which shows different results in different situations.

    Makeups, bra and man shaving etc would not be considered in deception because it was not like that small baby was doing makeup from very first but they learnt it from mother or friends. Also man shaving their beard is not part of deception because lol many woman like man with beard. Different situations different results.

    Society only teaches to do this things, we are actually trying to be same with different people because we want or everyone want them to like each other.
    And look “proper”.

    Actually we are trying to be in society’s standards. (“ “)
    GnosticChristian
    Peace 
  • ThorThor 254 Pts   -  
    @maxx

    Well, okay show me some examples.

    I think hunting by setting a trap for animals would be good example for that. 

    I think that it would have helped early humans. 

    But it would depend on situation in today’s world.
    Peace 
Sign In or Register to comment.

Back To Top

DebateIsland.com

| The Best Online Debate Experience!
© 2021 DebateIsland.com, all rights reserved. DebateIsland.com | The Best Online Debate Experience! Debate topics you care about in a friendly and fun way. Come try us out now. We are totally free!

Contact us

customerservice@debateisland.com
Terms of Service

Get In Touch