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Are You Gambling With Life?

Debate Information

Steve Jobs was a very intelligent, enterprising man. He built an empire out of being able to tap into people's needs and find the means to meet those needs.

He was very wealthy and resourceful yet when he fell ill with cancer, Jobs went off on a "spiritual" tangent in resorting to alternative medicine to cure him.

He eventually succumbed to his illness and the consensus was (and he agreed just before his death) that he would have lived much longer or even beaten cancer had he followed the proven, properly researched path of conventional medicine.

Is there a similarity with following religion?

Religion involves the worshipping of a creator and master of which there is no evidence whatsoever. It involves the sacrifice of ignoring anything that may conflict with the belief resulting in a very limited, closed-door view of life.

Does this enforced restriction of what life offers slowly constrict religious followers to the point that they are dying without even knowing it?



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  • @Swolliw

    What do you know of cancer treatment, the many medical case studies, and the research behind it? It, medicine is a religious regiment, and the religion behind it is part of what makes it effective. The case studies of different treatments almost ensure someone will die death under medical guidance this information is simply used to make documented improvements in the treatment process.

    Freedom of religion is the search for religion without cost...
    No cost also means in basic principle a person does not need to die in order they hold religion within their independent basic principles.
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1037 Pts   -  
    @John_C_87
    What do you know of cancer treatment, the many medical case studies, and the research behind it?

    Enough to know that conventional medicine is the best bet whilst anyone who believes in alternative medicine is complete nuts.

    TreeMan
  • An if it conventional medicine is only a none to a lesser chance of survival?
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2656 Pts   -  
    Every waking up is a gamble with life, so there's that... I guess it would be more accurate to talk of more or less favorable odds, but then, there's nothing else to win but another roll of the dice...
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • @Plaffelvohfen
    You should really read the lead into the second question. 

    @ Swolliw
    There is from the start, and still may be a large amount of pain and suffering that comes with cancer treatments a person's maturity and fulfillment shape choices having a lot to do with being able to grasp the fight they want to make for a living and what is in the balance. Like with learning, wealth, and money a person must decide how they will meet the end of this life from the start of becoming an adult. 

    Mr. Jobs...
    If not to be seen living in this life...
    means only fewer obstacles to the greater journey...
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1037 Pts   -  
    @John_C_87
    An if it conventional medicine is only a none to a lesser chance of survival?

    What I am saying is that conventional medicine is not perfect, but it is highly advanced and relies on proven, well studied techniques. 

    Alternative medicine is not. It relies on supernatural suppositions and primitive ideas. 

  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3946 Pts   -  
    As I see it, every choice we make is a gamble on some level. For one, we all accept the assumption that the laws of the Universe that were present yesterday are still present today and will be present tomorrow - the assumption that has a non-zero probability of being false. And if this assumption is false, then our entire perception of the world is false.

    That said, there are actions that we can take and be quite sure about their consequences. It is true that, when I sneeze, there is a non-zero probability of me destroying the world in the process - but this possibility appears so unlikely that spending more than 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds even considering it would be a complete waste of time.

    When you resort to "alternative medicine", then the probability of you making a wrong choice is quite high, since the effectiveness of that medicine is not supported by evidence, so you are, at best, rolling a dice and put your health into its outcome.
    When, on the other hand, you resort to scientific medicine, the probability of you making a wrong choice is substantially lower. It would take an outstanding coincidence of events for a treatment that has appeared to work on thousands of people before you to be proven to be wrong, and the positive consequences for those people attributable to something completely different.

    So you always gamble - however, you can choose between different gambling machines some of which give you much better odds at success than some other machines. Steve Jobs, for all his brilliance, appears to have picked a bad machine - and paid the ultimate price.
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1037 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar
    When you resort to "alternative medicine", then the probability of you making a wrong choice is quite high

    The Definiteness is 100% that you have made the wrong choice and that you are totally stu-pid.

    You must out of your cotton-picking mind if you think that a bleary-eyed woman with long, shaggy hair, wearing a purple and orange, ankle-length dress, adorned with sequins and a crystal hanging around her neck rubbing a cream infused with essence of hog wort into your forehead is going to cure your chronic illness.


  • SonofasonSonofason 326 Pts   -  
    No one is getting out of here alive, and most of us will suffer in death.  Just something to look forward to.
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1037 Pts   -   edited July 20
    @Sonofason No one is getting out of here alive, and most of us will suffer in death.  Just something to look forward to.

    Although there are reliable scientific reports that indicate that "living for eternity" will be a probability within the next two generations.
    Plaffelvohfen
  • PlaffelvohfenPlaffelvohfen 2656 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw

    We might very well extend our lifetime to a few hundred or even thousands of years (which could itself bring problems of its own), but that is still nowhere near "eternity"...  We most probably won't survive past the current stelliferous era and definitely not the subsequent degenerate era when neutrinos will decay to protons, electrons, and antineutrinos and life (as we know it) will no longer be possible in this universe...  
    " Adversus absurdum, contumaciter ac ridens! "
  • MrDebatePerson2MrDebatePerson2 239 Pts   -  
    WOW, I have been gone a long time and things are till the same, religious debates everywhere.
  • SonofasonSonofason 326 Pts   -  
    Swolliw said:
    @Sonofason No one is getting out of here alive, and most of us will suffer in death.  Just something to look forward to.Although there are reliable scientific reports that indicate that "living for eternity" will be a probability within the next two generations.@Sonofason
    And what exactly do you consider a reliable scientific report?  Got any evidence that indicates that living for eternity will be a probability?  I'd love to see it.
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1037 Pts   -  
    @Plaffelvohfen
    We might very well extend our lifetime to a few hundred or even thousands of years (which could itself bring problems of its own), but that is still nowhere near "eternity".

    I wouldn't completely write-off the notion of eternal life. Biomedical gerontologists are working on the case, and some feel confident that eternal life will be inevitable. https://www.ipl.org/essay/Biomedical-Gerontology-Case-Study-P3V87W3RJ4D6

    My feeling is though that they are still stuck on "biological" life which is, let's face it, pretty primitive and haphazard to say the least.

    We have the ability to create AI life forms and the research and technology going into this field is accelerating at breakneck speed. For example, we can now make artificial limbs and hearts that are far more superior than our current degenerative, problematic lumps of flesh and bone. Processors are getting more powerful by the minute, and it won't be long before we can manufacture brains that are more capable and functional than what we have now. I foresee a future whereby all biological life-forms (including plants) will be deemed as unnecessary and in fact, a hinderance to the success and development of mechanical and electronic life. Isaac Asimov wrote some great science fiction, but a lot of his predictions are becoming science facts.

  • SwolliwSwolliw 1037 Pts   -  
    @MrDebatePerson2
    WOW, I have been gone a long time

    As if anyone cared anyway.

    Plaffelvohfen
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 3946 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw

    I am fairly sure that the end stage of human evolution is going to be "brains in vats", or, more plausibly, neural systems running on computer servers. At the end of the day, all our experiences are in our brain, and fully digitizing our brain, separating it from our body and infusing it with artificial inputs effectively puts us beyond the limitations of the rules of physics and allows us to live in any reality we desire to choose.

    Of course, all this may go horribly wrong, if humanity becomes so detached from this, actual, reality that it becomes incapable of running the very servers their minds are installed on... But there are gazillions of possible solutions to this problem.

    Regardless, whatever that end stage is, it is likely centuries, if not millennia, away. For now the biological pathway to extending our lives has to, at least, be a part of the road towards eternal life. We have barely scratched the surface of the potential of the human organism with the right biological tweaks, and more and more scientists are starting to come to the conclusion that stopping and even reversing aging may be as simple as just tweaking a couple of genes. Quite exciting if this turns out to be the case. And quite funny if this is something that we could have done very easily, with technology from 500 BC, if we only had known it. Perhaps it is something as simple as just brewing a very particular fruit cocktail and drinking it; you never know!
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