Do Christians Treat Gays Impartially?

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Hey.

@Swolliw

Which Christians?

The LGBTQ etc  ones or the straight ones that dream about unconventional sex?

just_sayin

Swolliw said:

OK, Let's try and get this down and debated properly without any ridiculous sidetracks in order to snake one's way out of gist of the topic.

* A man who walks into your barbershop wearing long hair and unshaven.
As a Christian hairdresser, would you groom the man? (Leviticus 19:27 Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.)

* A guy covered in tattoos walks into your bar.
As a Christian bar-owner, would you serve him a drink? (Leviticus 19:28 Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves.)

* A man walks into your tailor shop. As a Christian tailor, would you make him a suit if the man asked for the fabric to be of a wool/polyester blend? (Leviticus 19:19 Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.)

* As a Christian wheat farmer would you harvest your entire field?
Leviticus 19:9 When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field)

* As a Christian candlestick maker, a man walks into your shop with an obvious gait and bent wrists. Speaking in a high voice with a lisp, he asks if you could make him a candle tapered at both ends. (Leviticus 18:22 Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman.)
Would you provide him with such a product?

a man walks into your shop with an obvious gait and bent wrists. Speaking in a high voice with a lisp, he asks if you could make him a candle tapered at both ends. 

Geez, do you always jump to conclusions?  That's  a huge jump in logic.  It might be right, but it could just as easily be wrong.

First, the Christian is under the new covenant and not the old covenant, and is not obligated to keep any of the ceremonial laws which you mention.

So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, - Galatians 3:24-25

 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
8 For he finds fault with them when he says:
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
    when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
    and with the house of Judah,
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
    on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
    and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
    after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
    and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
    and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
    and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
    and I will remember their sins no more.”
13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete.  - Hebrews 8:6-13

Second - various quick observations

Laws about hair length, mixed materials in clothing, or even eating shrimp - were to remind the Jewish people that they were to be set apart from the surrounding tribes and nations.  It wasn't because they hated polyester personally.  The purpose of the laws was always to remind Israel to be separate from anything that was less than perfect.    Shrimp was not to be eaten because the ideal creature from the sea had scales in the minds of Jews and shrimp did not have scales, so it was a deviation from what was considered 'perfect'.  It was therefore not 'perfect'.  The rule reminded the people to strive for moral perfection and not compromise.  It wasn't because they believed shrimp were poisonous - it was a symbolic rule that reminded Israel of its special relationship with God and the need to not become like the polytheistic nations around them.

The 'tattoos' mentioned in the old testament have no connection to tattoos today.  Then, surrounding tribes and nations would carve symbols in their bodies that represented that they had devoted themselves to the gods the symbols represented.  It wasn't similar to either the process or meaning of tattoos today.

Third, the New Testament condemns same sex relationships - that's why Christians point out God says they are wrong:

1. Romans 1:26-27
   "For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error."
2. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
   "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
3. 1 Timothy 1:9-10
   "...understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine."
4. Jude 1:7
   "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."

As 1 Corinthians points out, people who practiced homosexuality were not killed by Christians, in fact, some repented and became active members of the Corinthian church.  

Same sex relationships were not considered as worse sins than other sexual sins, and are listed beside sins like disobeying parents.  So while some Christians have treated homosexuality as some kind of special sin, the New Testament does not treat it as a special sin, just a sin, like any other.  

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Swolliw ; Homosexuality-Lesbianism are mental and spiritual illnesses. If a man or woman lacks the wisdom and discernment to make the most basic of moral decisions concerning sexuality, I don't trust them with anything of relevance in my life or the life of those I love and care for. I do NOT want LGBTQ participants in positions of leadership and authority in any capacity that requires even a modicum of moral and ethical decision making. I fled a very large municipality that was destroyed by LGBTQ leadership, I will never willingly place my family under such perversion and mental illness again...in any capacity...I don't want LGBTQ as my police, pilot, mayor, president, congressman/woman, or in any capacity requiring moral discernment. Jesus as one's Messiah is the ONLY HOPE for those deceived and trapped in the mental and spiritual illness of LGBTQAI++ perversion.

@Factfinder @Joeseph ; @21CenturyIconoclast ; @Polytheistwitch ; @Fredsnephew ; @MayCaesar; @JulesKorngold; @Maxx ; 

 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Fredsnephew ; There are no active LGBTQ "Christians"...you cannot serve the Devil in moral perversion and proclaim yourself a Christian.

Joeseph

@just_sayin


First, the Christian is under the new covenant and not the old covenant, and is not obligated to keep any of the ceremonial laws which you mentionnot

YOUR BIBLE IGNORANCE IS ASTONISHING 

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished


GODS INSTRUCTIONS ARE TO STONE HOMOSEXUALS TO DEATH.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; The Laws pertaining to Israel's Covenant of Law that adjudicated life within the Tribes and Elohim's commands to be holy as He is Holy do not extend beyond that Covenant made with Israel under Law. Though homosexuality remains a most vile sin in Elohim's eyes, Christians are NOT commanded to stone them or take their life but to live in peace and pray for them and not to compromise with them. The homosexual is offered forgiveness and life in Jesus IF they are willing to repent, STOP the defiled immorality, and trust Jesus as their Messiah by faith.

just_sayin

@Joeseph

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished

And Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament covenant.  He was the perfect one spoke of.  The Old Testament even predicted a new covenant.

 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. - Jeremiah 33:31-33

GODS INSTRUCTIONS ARE TO STONE HOMOSEXUALS TO DEATH.

Yes all sexual sins carried the maximum penalty in the Old Covenant of death.  However, any violation of the law, other than murder, could be given a lesser sentence.  From Jules AI:

Based on the search results and biblical scholarship, there are a few key passages that suggest lesser penalties could sometimes be given for laws that carried the death penalty in the Old Testament:

1. Numbers 35:30-31 

"If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the evidence of witnesses. But no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness. Moreover, you shall accept no ransom for the life of a murderer, who is guilty of death, but he shall be put to death."

This passage implies that for crimes other than murder, a ransom or lesser penalty might be accepted instead of the death penalty.

2. Proverbs 6:32-35

This passage discusses adultery and suggests that monetary compensation might be accepted instead of death in some cases.

3. Numbers 5:5-8 

This describes how someone who confessed to a "high-handed sin" could offer a sacrifice instead of receiving the death penalty, treating it as an inadvertent sin.

4. Exodus 21:26-27

"When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth."

This shows a lesser penalty (freeing the slave) for what would normally be a capital offense (assault resulting in permanent injury).

5. Deuteronomy 22:28-29

In the case of rape of an unbetrothed virgin, the man is required to pay a fine and marry the woman, rather than receive the death penalty.

These passages suggest that while the death penalty was prescribed for many offenses, there was some flexibility in its application, particularly for crimes other than premeditated murder. The ability to commute sentences or accept lesser penalties seems to have been part of the judicial process in ancient Israel.

Citations:

[1] https://theopolisinstitute.com/the-death-penalty-in-the-mosaic-law/

[2] https://bible.org/article/wrath-god-old-testament-law-brings-wrath

[3] https://biblereasons.com/bible-verses-about-sodom-and-gomorrah/

[4] https://www.bibleoutlines.com/exodus-2118-2215-violence-to-people-and-animals-property-rights/

[5] https://www.lwf.org/articles/isaiah-53-prophecies-of-jesus

[6] https://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/library/verses/id/2249/new-covenant-superior-old-verses.htm

[7] https://rsc.byu.edu/jesus-christ-son-god-savior/isaiah-messiah

[8] https://stillfaith.com/topics/new-covenant/

Why did you seek to mislead?  Are you trying to become the next @FactFinder?  If so, let me hear your best Yosemite Sam voice and say:

"Them eye witnesses, doctor's reports, and medical records, and peer reviewed journals, thems ain't evidence cause I said thems ain't evidence!!!!! Dagnabbit!!!  I says that ain't no evidence!"

Fredsnephew

Argument Topic: Hey Rickey

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Is an OSISI really going to bothered about how humans achieve recreational sexual satisfaction.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Fredsnephew ; What is an OSISI?

polytheistwitch

If a Christian is following Jewish law then he's not a Christian he's a Jew. The only thing Christ commands in the New Testament is the love of your lord your God and to love your neighbor like yourself. 
That would mean the gay ones.

Joeseph

@just_sayin

Why are you lying for god?

Why are you totally unaware of the contents of the bible?

Also Why does it not bother you that your so called loving gods morality seems to change from the old testament to the new?

Specifically, the Old Testament says the messiah will: 

1. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

2. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

3. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

4. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

So do you want to try again ?

You lose yet again.....ZING 


REGARDS PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS YOU HAVE NOT EVEN ONE FOR TO SUPPORT YOUR TALL TALES......

Factfinder

@just_sayin

Why did you seek to mislead?  Are you trying to become the next @FactFinder? 

As you intentionally try to mislead another member, classic. Weird how you can't get me out of your head. It's like I tell the truth, it resonates and then you feel stoopid cause you know deep down you believe in fairytales. Your myth says Jesus fulfills the law and prophets, it doesn't say you are absolved from advocating and believing in them however; so why would you lie and mislead?

If your fairytale elf book says... "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, they have committed an abomination; the two of them shall be put to death; their bloodguilt is upon them." Leviticus 20:13 

And it also says...

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Then you are to advocate for the execution of gays. Claiming Jesus lets you off the hook cause he also says love god and your neighbor are the greatest of commandments doesn't negate what you are to believe in and advocate for according to your unchanging god in your fairytale elf book. 

I just don't have enough faith to be a theist.  

Joeseph

@Factfinder

Seems that  you , I and May   really get to this guy , he seems to be in a constant petulant sulk even with AI fighting his corner 

just_sayin

Joeseph said:

@just_sayin

Why are you lying for god?

Why are you totally unaware of the contents of the bible?

Also Why does it not bother you that your so called loving gods morality seems to change from the old testament to the new?

Specifically, the Old Testament says the messiah will: 

1. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

2. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

3. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

4. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

So do you want to try again ?

You lose yet again.....ZING 


REGARDS PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS YOU HAVE NOT EVEN ONE FOR TO SUPPORT YOUR TALL TALES......

Hey thanks for providing Bible verse links.  It seems the verses you mention deal with promises regarding either the end times or have been fulfilled already:

Israel was reformed as a country in 1948 fulfilling Isaiah 43:5-6 -

Fear not, for I am with you;
    I will bring your offspring from the east,
    and from the west I will gather you.
6 I will say to the north, Give up,
    and to the south, Do not withhold;
bring my sons from afar
    and my daughters from the end of the earth

Ezekiel 37:26-28 - does not specifically state the building of a temple, rather a sanctuary .

 I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land[a] and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.

Whether this has been fulfilled or not is debated.  Some see this as a prophecy about Jesus establishing a new covenant, and being a mediator between God and man - allowing us access to God's throne.  Other's think it is a future event.  

REGARDS PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS YOU HAVE NOT EVEN ONE FOR TO SUPPORT YOUR TALL TALES......

Actually, I mentioned multiple examples already.  Did you look at the list I gave you in the faith of the atheist debate?  Again:

Blind woman gets eyesight back
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550830720300926?via=ihub

Miracles in medicine: A narrative inquiry exploring extraordinary events in pediatrics

The Miraculous Cure of a Sarcoma of the Pelvis: Cure of Vittorio Micheli at Lourdes

All 3 links had been shared above.  I must assume you didn't look at any of them.

Geez, once again you whipped out what you thought was a big argument, and then it turned out there was nothing there again.  Too bad there isn't something you can take to enlarge microscopic, shriveled, and left leaning debate arguments.  

Joeseph

@just_sayin


ARGUMENT TOPIC : JUST LYING STILL OBSESSING ABOUT MALE SIZES, DONT WORRY BUDDY SOME DAY YOUR PRINCE WILL COME.......

Hey thanks for providing Bible verse links. It seems the verses you mention deal with promises regarding either the end times or have been fulfilled already:

Actually, I mentioned multiple examples already........

just_sayin

@Joeseph
The topic is about 'do Christians treat gays impartially'.  Once again you have veered far from the topic.  I get it.  Your strategy is when you know your argument isn't impressing, change the topic.  

Joeseph

@just_sayin


The topic is about 'do Christians treat gays impartially'

I addressed that its all in the Bile in your gods words as in....... stone them to death ....argument done and dusted ....next


.  

just_sayin

Joeseph said:

@just_sayin


The topic is about 'do Christians treat gays impartially'

I addressed that its all in the Bile in your gods words as in....... stone them to death ....argument done and dusted ....next


.  

Well, it is true God hates sin.  But it is also true that He forgives those who repent.  

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. - 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

Joeseph

@just_sayin


Well, it is true God hates sin.  But it is also true that He forgives those who repent.  


Why should someone repent for being gay? So you agree with stoning as punishment I take it?

Factfinder

@Joeseph

"Sin" just seems like on of those words invented to manipulate the minds of the religious and has no purpose in reality.

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

@Joeseph

"Sin" just seems like on of those words invented to manipulate the minds of the religious and has no purpose in reality.

There are several different Greek words for sin.  One means a debt owed.  Another means to miss the mark.  Sin is an act or thought that goes against divine law or moral principles. It is often seen as a transgression against God’s will and commands.

You follow someone's laws, whether a group's or your own.  You just don't recognize God or His laws.  But make no mistake, you are subject to laws.

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

@Joeseph

"Sin" just seems like on of those words invented to manipulate the minds of the religious and has no purpose in reality.

There are several different Greek words for sin.  One means a debt owed.  Another means to miss the mark.  Sin is an act or thought that goes against divine law or moral principles. It is often seen as a transgression against God’s will and commands.

You follow someone's laws, whether a group's or your own.  You just don't recognize God or His laws.  But make no mistake, you are subject to laws.

Sin being a violation of god's laws only pertains to religious concepts. Not loving god or your neighbor is a violation of gods law that has nothing to do with criminal activity and all to do with feeding a huge ego. God isn't an established reality. The laws I'm under convict people of actual criminal activity, nothing to do with hurting a fictious character's feelings. You made my point. Thanks.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; The "laws you're under" find their genesis in the spiritual law/natural law of our Creator written upon the human heart at conception.

The Bible very succinctly defines the basis for all laws as follow:

James 2:8: “If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well.”

Matthew 7:12: “Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them: this is the law.”

Matthew 22:36-40: (36) “Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law? (37) Jesus said to him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul and with all thy mind [See. Exodus 20:3-11]. (38) This is the first and great commandment. (39)And the second is like unto it, Though shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. (40) On these two commandments hang all law…”

The second commandment above to love our neighbor derives from the last six commandments found in Exodus 20:12-17, which describe for us HOW to love our neighbor:

12 Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

13 You shall not murder.

14 You shall not commit adultery.

15 You shall not steal.

16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor is female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.

The government’s moral authority to pass laws therefore derive directly and exclusively from the above and from the Bible:protecting and loving our neighbor from harm.God told us above how to love our neighbor in no uncertain terms.Any violation of these commandments is considered “sin” in a Christian sense.Likewise, in the context of human government, the foundation of all criminal laws and the existence of the District Attorney is a fulfillment of the second of the two great commandments to love our neighbor by keeping us from hurting each other.Anything that violates these six commandments in most good human governments is considered a crime.

Now lets apply what we have learned in a practical sense. How can we know whether man’s law conflicts with God’s law and what should we do if it does?As we clearly explained earlier in section 1.9.6, when man’s law conflicts with God’s law, then God’s law MUST prevail. This is a logical consequence of both Natural Law, which we describe later in section 3.4 and Natural Order, which we describe later in section 4.1. Below are some questions you should ask yourself based on this section, to determine whether man’s law conflicts with God’s law:

• Does this law interfere with my ability to worship my God? (the first of the two great commandments)
• Does this law cause me to commit idolatry by putting government higher than God?
• Does this law cause me to sin against my neighbor based on the biblical definition of sin?  Does it force me to do something that is sinful, or prevent me from doing something the bible says I should do?
• Will following this law not demonstrate love and compassion for my fellow man?  For instance, would the law cause innocent unborn children to be responsible for debts that were incurred during our lifetime, resulting in financial slavery?

If the answer to any of the above questions is YES, then you shouldn’t follow the law and should do everything you can to defeat, eliminate, and undermine that law. Here are just a few examples of how to effectively resist and undermine and protest an unjust law:

• Picket it.
• Refuse to subsidize the enforcement of it with our tax dollars.
• Run for political office and eliminate it once elected.
• Write our Congressman to complain about it.
• Vote against it in the ballot box.
• If the law comes in front of a jury that we are sitting on, we should vote against enforcing it.

We can’t put it any simpler than that.https://famguardian.org/Subjects/LawAndGovt/ChurchVState/BiblicalLaw.htm

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; The "laws you're under" find their genesis in the spiritual law/natural law of our Creator written upon the human heart at conception.

That's nice. Your "creator" hasn't been established in reality and I'm pretty much a stickler for reality.

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

@Joeseph

"Sin" just seems like on of those words invented to manipulate the minds of the religious and has no purpose in reality.

There are several different Greek words for sin.  One means a debt owed.  Another means to miss the mark.  Sin is an act or thought that goes against divine law or moral principles. It is often seen as a transgression against God’s will and commands.

You follow someone's laws, whether a group's or your own.  You just don't recognize God or His laws.  But make no mistake, you are subject to laws.

Sin being a violation of god's laws only pertains to religious concepts. Not loving god or your neighbor is a violation of gods law that has nothing to do with criminal activity and all to do with feeding a huge ego. God isn't an established reality. The laws I'm under convict people of actual criminal activity, nothing to do with hurting a fictious character's feelings. You made my point. Thanks.

LOL.  "Feeding a huge ego"?  How dare God think He is ... well ... God.  LOL.  There are 2 things in life I am certain of..  1) There is a God and 2) you aren't Him.  You think God shouldn't act like He's God and make rules like He's the ruler of the universe. LOL. 

 

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

@Joeseph

"Sin" just seems like on of those words invented to manipulate the minds of the religious and has no purpose in reality.

There are several different Greek words for sin.  One means a debt owed.  Another means to miss the mark.  Sin is an act or thought that goes against divine law or moral principles. It is often seen as a transgression against God’s will and commands.

You follow someone's laws, whether a group's or your own.  You just don't recognize God or His laws.  But make no mistake, you are subject to laws.

Sin being a violation of god's laws only pertains to religious concepts. Not loving god or your neighbor is a violation of gods law that has nothing to do with criminal activity and all to do with feeding a huge ego. God isn't an established reality. The laws I'm under convict people of actual criminal activity, nothing to do with hurting a fictious character's feelings. You made my point. Thanks.

LOL.  "Feeding a huge ego"?  How dare God think He is ... well ... God.  LOL.  There are 2 things in life I am certain of..  1) There is a God and 2) you aren't Him.  You think God shouldn't act like He's God and make rules like He's the ruler of the universe. LOL. 

 

Yeah well given your well known credibility issues, whatever. When you can establish your specific fairytale elf god as real and glean information a relationship with it should, then talk to me. Until then I just don't have enough faith to believe in the stupidity of your fictious god or its ego or the many fairytale myths of the bible.

Joeseph

@Factfinder

They pretend they are following their gods laws yet totally ignore most of what he says , I wonder if Just Lying has given up all his worldly wealth to follow god ?

Maybe he's waiting on Rickey to get the ball rolling, or most likely will use the usual " the Hebrew translation actually means gather asmuch wealth as you can "

just_sayin

@Joeseph said:

@Factfinder

They pretend they are following their gods laws yet totally ignore most of what he says , I wonder if Just Lying has given up all his worldly wealth to follow god ?

Maybe he's waiting on Rickey to get the ball rolling, or most likely will use the usual " the Hebrew translation actually means gather asmuch wealth as you can "

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs. - 1 Timothy 6:10 (ESV)

It isn't money that is evil.  It is a tool.  It is one's love and obsession with it.  I've met poor people in Appalachia who were every bit as in love with money as some rich men.  I know some very wealthy people who are some of the most compassionate people you could meet.

There were a lot of rich followers of God in the Bible - Abraham, Isaac, Israel, Joseph, David, Solomon, Zacchaeus, Joseph of Arimathea, Nicodemus, and Barnabas.   Hard to say you can't be rich and a follower of God when so many have done just that.

Again, I observe the foolish notion you both have communicated - you both think that the ruler of the Universe, God, should not make the rules.  Or at least His rules should be like yours.  Talk about being pompous and presumptuous.  If God is God, then He gets to be God and make the rules.  If God says having sex with children or animals is a sin, you would probably be OK with that rule because it fits your personal thoughts (maybe not so much @Barnardot though, there might be something weird happening between him and his chickens).  It is when God says something that you don't agree with that you claim He has no right to make the rules.  If God says sex outside of a marriage between a man and woman is wrong, you may argue that its OK for 2 consenting adults to do what they want to, they don't need to get married first, or they can be the same sex.  And from societies values that might make sense.  But, again, if there is a ruler of the universe, He makes the rules.  The real problem you both have, is that you are mad that you aren't God, but mistakenly think you know better than Him.

Factfinder

@just_sayin

Again, I observe the foolish notion you both have communicated - you both think that the ruler of the Universe, God, should not make the rules.  Or at least His rules should be like yours.  Talk about being pompous and presumptuous.

You must be going for the 'foot in mouth' award. You think people are subject to your childish fantasy while complaining that smart people who reject it are pompous simply for not bending a knee to your elf god. All the while you pretend you have authority and get to make up the rules as you go. What a....

Joeseph

@just_sayin

Hard to say you can't be rich and a follower of God when so many have done just that.

It's not hard at all if one is meant to be a true followers of christ as he's quiet clear on the topic.


Again, I observe the foolish notion you both have communicated - you both think that the ruler of the Universe, God, should not make the rules.

I never said that I don't believe in god you do,I pointed out how christians like you do think god the ruler of the Universe yet totally ignore most of what he says.


  Or at least His rules should be like yours.  Talk about being pompous and presumptuous.  If God is God, then He gets to be God and make the rules.  If God says having sex with children or animals is a sin, you would probably be OK with that rule because it fits your personal thoughts (maybe not so much @Barnardot though, there might be something weird happening between him and his chickens).  It is when God says something that you don't agree with that you claim He has no right to make the rules. 

Again you have it totally wrong I've never made that argument in fact I've said before Muslims that follow the book as written as in those in the Caliphate even though I detest what they stand for at least they are consistent with the book as written same as the Westboro Baptists who attempt to follow what the bible actually says no matter how unpalatable, you pick and choose which parts to reject and accept.


If God says sex outside of a marriage between a man and woman is wrong, you may argue that its OK for 2 consenting adults to do what they want to, they don't need to get married first, or they can be the same sex.  And from societies values that might make sense.  But, again, if there is a ruler of the universe, He makes the rules.  The real problem you both have, is that you are mad that you aren't God, but mistakenly think you know better than Him.

Again totally incorrect I don't want to be a god moral questions do not require a god to resolve and yes I do know better than your god as I disapprove of slavery , stoning of homosexual and beating of kids etc, etc you on the other do not know unless you consult a god? 

Also despite me asking countless times neither you or Rickets can ever give  a list of examples of these unchanging moral dictates that god decrees are made for all men.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; You think yourself wiser than God when are an atheistic fool headed to death in Hell and you're too stu-pid to know or care...you truly are a waste of time.

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Yes I do your god is extremely immoral and st-pid 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ;  Your god is the devil...you have no room to talk, demon.

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Yet Satan killed only 10 people because god told him to,  god wiped out the whole world population because he was in a rage ......so tell us all why you worship him? ZING 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; Every murder, every death, is the resultant of your father's deception (John 8:44)...you are evil...you are not well psychologically or spiritually...you are a burden, a demonic insult, to all that is good and sustainable. Zing that!

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Joeseph ; Every murder, every death, is the resultant of your father's deception (John 8:44)...you are evil...you are not well psychologically or spiritually...you are a burden, a demonic insult, to all that is good and sustainable. Zing that!

It's okay you believe that. But telling people that are too intelligent that they are "evil" for not believing in ghosts and fairytale myths is what makes you delusional as your imaginary friends are insignificant and are of no consequence. 

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw

So god wiped out mankind because of me and my deceased father ..... you do know your insane by any standard  right?

just_sayin

Joeseph said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

So god wiped out mankind because of me and my deceased father ..... you do know your insane by any standard  right?

As normal, you are getting way off topic.  @Joeseph, I believe the father @RickeyHoltsclaw is referring is to Satan.  Not your biological father.  Once again you seem to be claiming that God does not have the right to give or take life.  On what basis are you making that claim?  Why is it wrong for God to play God and decide who lives or who dies?  You have never answered that basic question, which is critical for your argument (even though it is in the wrong debate).

Joeseph

@just_sayin

The only reason I'm straying off topic is because of constant irrational claims made by you and your buddy.

Satan is still not my father as I don't believe in it or your god.

I never claimed god hadn't a right to do so if it existed , my broader point is christians have no moral compass as they claim gods decision to wipe out mankind at the flood was morally good and god is all good yet Satan is evil yet the only people he wiped out were  Jobs family because god goaded him into doing so, yet Satan is the bad guy so say christians proving their morality is arbitrary and based on God's whims.

This is how I know watching a child being raped and doing nothing ( when i can ) would be  despicable behaviour you and Rickets think it morally perfect once god is the one ignoring the pleas of the child that's makes one of us an uncaring monster and it ain't me.

Your inability to correctly state an opponent's actual position seems to be an ongoing challenge for you.

So again you're attacking arguments I'm not making.

just_sayin

@Joeseph
The only reason I'm straying off topic is because of constant irrational claims made by you and your buddy.
Nah, you don't need a reason to go off script.

Satan is still not my father as I don't believe in it or your god.

Hey today would have been my dad's birthday.  I love my dad and would never deny that he existed like you are yours.  One day I'll be able to spend eternity with my dad, and so will you.  

I never claimed god hadn't a right to do so if it existed , my broader point is christians have no moral compass as they claim gods decision to wipe out mankind at the flood was morally god and god is all good yet Satan is evil yet the only people he wiped out was Jobs family because god goaded him into doing so,yet Satan is the bad guy so say christians proving their morality is arbitrary and based on God's whims.

Your dad, Satan, is a tool.  The Bible always points back to God as the one responsible.  In the story of Job, the tool has to get God's permission to try Job.  So ultimately, whether something good or bad happens to you, God either directly did it or permitted it.  In the case of the flood, most were punished for their wickedness.  Those who died who were either to young to be responsible for their conduct or who were 'good', were not cheated as their reward is eternity in heaven.  Nowhere does God promise anyone that they will not die.  He doesn't promise a person a single day.

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” - James 4:13-15

Do not boast about tomorrow, for you do not know what a day may bring. - Proverbs 27:1

This is how I know watching a child being raped and doing nothing ( when i can ) would be  despicable behaviour you and Rickets think it morally perfect one god is the one ignoring the pleas of the god , that's makes one of us an uncaring monster and it ain't me.

God will ultimately punish every sin.  You believe in world where rapists sometimes get away with it.  I do not.  Your's is the unjust world.  You believe God promised that no bad things will happen.  He has not made that promise. 

Again I saw that under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to those with knowledge, but time and chance happen to them all. - Ecclesiastes 9:11

 I have told you this so that you will have peace by being united to me. The world will make you suffer. But be brave! I have defeated the world! - John 16:33

Your inability to correctly state an opponent's actual position seems to be an ongoing challenge for you.

What irritates you is that I accurately state the size of your argument.  You want to pretend it is bigger than it is.  You want to make assertions and then run away from them when they shrink to nothing.  

So again you're attacking arguments I'm not making.

Well at least we both believe there is nothing to your argument.  On that much we can agree.  

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Joeseph said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

So god wiped out mankind because of me and my deceased father ..... you do know your insane by any standard  right?

As normal, you are getting way off topic.  @Joeseph, I believe the father @RickeyHoltsclaw is referring is to Satan.  Not your biological father.  Once again you seem to be claiming that God does not have the right to give or take life.  On what basis are you making that claim?  Why is it wrong for God to play God and decide who lives or who dies?  You have never answered that basic question, which is critical for your argument (even though it is in the wrong debate).

Satan is an imaginary being and no ones father so I say Joeseph's diagnosis is correct, Ricky is insane.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@JustSayin ; @Joeseph ; @Factfinder ;  @JustSayin...it has become a burden to me to interact with Joeseph and Factfinder...I've grown weary of the wastefulness and insults to my Lord; therefore, I will mute them both in the best interest of the Spirit and my peace of mind. @21CenturyIconoclast will probably be forthcoming as a waste of time as well...not worth the demonic agenda and its nag on my conscience. Know your enemy. Enjoy your bantering with these demons. Stay strong.

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

You will still be notified if you're tagged or we post on your threads so you will still know I just don't have the faith to believe in your fairytale as I prefer adult reality over childhood fantasy. No, insult, just keeping it real.

just_sayin

@RickeyHoltsclaw
I get it.  I don't blame you.  You have to evaluate the cost of engaging.  I'm preparing a loaded questions apologetic class for my church.  The interactions have been helpful, but I have no inclination that reason could persuade some on the site.    

Joeseph

@just_sayin

Nah, you don't need a reason to go off script.

Yeah , I actually do.

Satan is still not my father as I don't believe in it or your god.

Hey today would have been my dad's birthday.  I love my dad and would never deny that he existed like you are yours.  One day I'll be able to spend eternity with my dad, and so will you.  

I never denied my dad existed , wow! You just constantly lie.  But you just said I denied my dad existed make your mind up.

I never claimed god hadn't a right to do so if it existed , my broader point is christians have no moral compass as they claim gods decision to wipe out mankind at the flood was morally god and god is all good yet Satan is evil yet the only people he wiped out was Jobs family because god goaded him into doing so,yet Satan is the bad guy so say christians proving their morality is arbitrary and based on God's whims.

Your dad, Satan, is a tool. 

 I still don't believe in Satan you do you worship him.

 The Bible always points back to God as the one responsible.

Yet you always deny it.


  In the story of Job, the tool has to get God's permission to try Job.  So ultimately, whether something good or bad happens to you, God either directly did it or permitted it

Your swerving and dodging is hilarious.


.  In the case of the flood, most were punished for their wickedness

Right got ya , infants were wicked and unborn infants were wicked and deserved to be punished.....seriously?

Also god knew this yet created them to destroy them , while  you and Rickey cannot explain God's other level stupidity.


.  Those who died who were either to young to be responsible for their conduct or who were 'good', were not cheated as their reward is eternity in heaven. 

Right so create them knowing this just to slaughter them , you and Rickey  still cannot answer why, do you want to at least try?

 Nowhere does God promise anyone that they will not die.  He doesn't promise a person a single day.

Never said otherwise , so you're back to arguments I'm not making.

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” - James 4:13-15

Do not boast about tomorrow, for you do not know what a day may bring. - Proverbs 27:1


What are you babbling about?



God will ultimately punish every sin


Wrong again,  God forgives all  sin once one repents so that same rapist could gain heaven yet the unfortunate could go to hell for cursing god  for forgiving him. You really need to read a bible your ignorance is astonishing.

.  You believe in world where rapists sometimes get away with it. 

That's called facing reality,  you belive in a fantasy where a rapist can be forgiven by your god and the victim punished for cursing god for not punishing him.


I do not.  Your's is the unjust world. 

The actual world is unjust so is your fantasy world as Hitler could be sitting at the right hand of the lord according to your delusions as impacted to you through the book you know little about the Bile


You believe God promised that no bad things will happen.  He has not made that promise. 

No I never said that.  I know.

Again I saw that under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to those with knowledge, but time and chance happen to them all. - Ecclesiastes 9:11

More babble.

 I have told you this so that you will have peace by being united to me. The world will make you suffer. But be brave! I have defeated the world! - John 16:33

Indeed but in the mean time he watches kids being raped and does nothing and you his servant this is an act o the most loving  morality.


What irritates you is that I accurately state the size of your argument.

Which is why you fled  the last debate after losing 6 to nil , not 1 out of the 6 questions could you even attempt an answer on.


  You want to pretend it is bigger than it is.

AHH you're back to talking about your miniscule manhood.

  You want to make assertions and then run away from them when they shrink to nothing.  

Don't worry you may find your prince yet and pretend to be a girlie when your " manhood " cannot match up ......or maybe pray on it?


Well at least we both believe there is nothing to your argument

Which is why I always whip you easily using your own arguments against you like above where as usual you will not have anything to counter your complete annihilation , don't stress it your ex buddy Rickets couldn't either .......NEXT ......

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw
I get it.  I don't blame you.  You have to evaluate the cost of engaging.  I'm preparing a loaded questions apologetic class for my church.  The interactions have been helpful, but I have no inclination that reason could persuade some on the site.    

No doubt you will use the tactics of lying and misrepresenting what others have said that routinely proved you wrong when you indoctrinate the class you intend to abuse. You can't say I'm lying cause this board is full of debates you were loosing and invoked strawmen arguments as well as special pleading for special magic powers on behalf of your fairytale elf god refusing reason all along. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@just_sayin God Bless You...thank you for serving our Lord. I'll hang around for a bit...see what topics are offered for discussion. Lost a lot of interest in this atheist plagued forum...stay strong. Thank you.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@just_sayin God Bless You...thank you for serving our Lord. I'll hang around for a bit...see what topics are offered for discussion. Lost a lot of interest in this atheist plagued forum...stay strong. Thank you.

Thanks for confessing you believe in fairytales as a real man of faith doesn't run just because you're so defeated, delusional and have nothing of significance to add. Don't let the door hit you on the way out!