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Is Biden's recent vaccine mandate moral?

Debate Information

1. The President is chief citizen. This means the President should represent all of the people of the United States. Citizens expect the President to work for their interests and provide moral leadership. During a pandemic, the POTUS should try to protect the citizens. Biden has made vaccine mandates to make sure that more citizens don't suffer or die from Covid and the new variants. We know that 95% of people in hospitals for Covid have NOT been vaccinated.
2. There are all kinds of mandates from the government that are designed to keep us safe, such as speed limits that are known to save lives. There are also mandates prohibiting using drugs or alcohol while driving for the same reason. Workplace safety laws are enforced by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, and so on.
3. It's immoral to allow people to suffer or die and to allow them to infect others for political reasons ... The POTUS has to act in order to reduce suffering and death, as it's the only moral thing to do. Individual liberty has to be balanced against public safety. Not being vaccinated is a clear and present danger to us all. Biden did good.. and will be heavily criticized by those who for whatever reason, still agree with Trump's laiser faire covid policies.

exconTreeManCYDdhartaAlofRISkepticalOne



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  • exconexcon 228 Pts   -   edited September 13

    Hello B:

    If you passed by a lake and saw somebody drowning, and you COULD easily jump in and save them, would it be IMMORAL if you decided NOT to??  Pursuant to my moral code, I'd be COMPELLED to jump in.

    It appears that Biden's and my moral code are one in the same, in that he too, believes he's COMPELLED to "jump in" to save people.

    excon
    BlastcatCYDdhartaTreeManOakTownASkepticalOne
  • anarchist100anarchist100 556 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat
    All government mandates are immoral, If I tell you that you can only allow certain people to work for you, you ignore me because it's none of my business, why is it any different when the government does it?

    A person's health is their own responsibility, not other people's, it's not my responsibility to make any situation they might encounter totally risk free, people need to start acting like adults and taking responsibility for themselves rather than yelling that other people have some duty to them. people today are just acting like spoiled children.
    BlastcatDebater123CYDdhartaTreeManJeffreyBlankenshipAlofRIOakTownASkepticalOne
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat
    All government mandates are immoral, If I tell you that you can only allow certain people to work for you, you ignore me because it's none of my business, why is it any different when the government does it?

    A person's health is their own responsibility, not other people's, it's not my responsibility to make any situation they might encounter totally risk free, people need to start acting like adults and taking responsibility for themselves rather than yelling that other people have some duty to them. people today are just acting like spoiled children.

    There's a lot to disagree with there.

    I will start off by asking you if you think that people should be allowed to infect you with a potentially deadly disease? You may care for their freedom more than your health, after all.
    CYDdhartaJeffreyBlankenshipOakTownA
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 888 Pts   -  
    Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

    Are you or biden willing to be charged or sued if anyone dies or has a negative reaction to the vaccine? 

    Here's the vaers report on reported vaccine cases set by cdc. **This is reported data, not verified.

    https://medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?TABLE=ON&GROUP1=CAT&EVENTS=ON&VAX=COVID19

    BlastcatxlJ_dolphin_473TreeManPlaffelvohfenJoeKerrAlofRIOakTownA
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 13
    Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

    Are you or biden willing to be charged or sued if anyone dies or has a negative reaction to the vaccine? 

    Here's the vaers report on reported vaccine cases set by cdc. **This is reported data, not verified.

    https://medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?TABLE=ON&GROUP1=CAT&EVENTS=ON&VAX=COVID19


    " On the 6th of January 1777, George Washington wrote to Dr. William Shippen Jr., ordering him to inoculate all of the forces that came through Philadelphia. He explained that: "Necessity not only authorizes but seems to require the measure, for should the disorder infect the Army . . . we should have more to dread from it, than from the Sword of the Enemy." The urgency was real. Troops were scarce and encampments had turned into nomadic hospitals of festering disease, deterring further recruitment. Both Benedict Arnold and Benjamin Franklin, after surveying the havoc wreaked by Variola in the Canadian campaign, expressed fears that the virus would be the army's ultimate downfall. "

    Hi, Mike, when it comes to a pandemic, personal freedom has to be weighed against public safety. We now know that 95% of people in hospitals due to Covid are unvaccinated. Who knows how many people they have infected before they showed up at the emergency ward? There were 73 thousand infected people just yesterday. We know that unvaccinated people are driving the pandemic.  I don't know what your link is supposed to prove.  Sorry. Maybe it shows that 2.15% of vaccinated people die ... ok. That's a hell of a lot better than unvaccinated people which I think is 11% death rate.


    and





    CYDdhartaTreeManJeffreyBlankenshipOakTownA
  • exconexcon 228 Pts   -   edited September 13

    A person's health is their own responsibility, not other people's, it's not my responsibility..

    Hello a:

    Really??  If you have an infectious virus and you infect somebody, why is that his fault??  Truly..  What is wrong with you that you'd infect people with a deadly disease and blame them for getting it??  It's BONKERS!

    Du-de!

    excon
    BlastcatCYDdhartaTreeManPlaffelvohfenAlofRIOakTownA
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 888 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    If it is mainly harming the unvaccinated then why do the vaccinated feel like they need to force people to take something they don't want?  Your good.

    Also I'm curious, what is the point of vaccination if you already have natural immunity?
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 13
    @Blastcat

    If it is mainly harming the unvaccinated then why do the vaccinated feel like they need to force people to take something they don't want?  Your good.

    Also I'm curious, what is the point of vaccination if you already have natural immunity?

    in a word, "Children".
    They are dying.

    Im not a doctor, so I can't really answer your medical question. You might want to ask your doctor about immunity. All I can say is that I have my two vaccines, and am way better protected than I was before I took them. People are walking about unvaccinated, and they will increase more variants. We don't want new variants.

    • Experts say the number of unvaccinated people in the United States is a key reason coronavirus variants are emerging.
    • They explain that the virus replicates quicker in unvaccinated people, increasing the chance of mutations.
    • They’re concerned that new COVID-19 cases will continue to rise as variants spread and people still refuse to get vaccinated.


    CYDdhartaTreeManAlofRIOakTownA
  • anarchist100anarchist100 556 Pts   -   edited September 13
    Blastcat said:
    @Blastcat
    All government mandates are immoral, If I tell you that you can only allow certain people to work for you, you ignore me because it's none of my business, why is it any different when the government does it?

    A person's health is their own responsibility, not other people's, it's not my responsibility to make any situation they might encounter totally risk free, people need to start acting like adults and taking responsibility for themselves rather than yelling that other people have some duty to them. people today are just acting like spoiled children.

    There's a lot to disagree with there.

    I will start off by asking you if you think that people should be allowed to infect you with a potentially deadly disease? You may care for their freedom more than your health, after all.
    They don't have the right to infect me through force or fraud, however other than that it's not their responsibility to go out of their way to prevent me from getting sick. It's mine.
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 13
    They don't have the right to infect me through force or fraud, however other than that it's not their responsibility to go out of their way to prevent me from getting sick. It's mine.

    Anarchist, thanks for your answer, but I didn't ask if they have the right to infect you through force or fraud.They might be infected without knowing it. So you could ask them if they are infected, and they could honestly say "No" and be wrong. It's interesting to me that you say everyone is alone defending themselves against the covid when science tells us otherwise. The virus spreads by people. Unvaccinated people carry a heavier load once infected than vaccinated people and we also know by science that unvaccinated people get infected easier, have way more chance of serious effects, such as dying.

    You can't get infected if nobody is around. You might walk around in a plastic bubble and can never be infected by anything at all. You might never come out of your room until it's all over maybe in a few years or so. If you never meet anyone, you are safe. But my question implies that you are meeting people. They might or might not be vaccinated. If they infect you, and they have not been vaccinated, your chances have fallen drastically. If they would have been vaccinated, your chances would be better. Better yet, you get vaccinated. I suspect by your argument that you aren't considering getting vaccinated. Let me know if I'm wrong, but you give that impression.

    But say, if you go to a party where you don't even know if people got vaccinated or not. If you are not vaccinated, you might inadvertently spread the disease to others. Would you be responsible for their illness then?

    It seems that you are saying that nobody should care for other people's health. We know that children are dying of covid. What if your viral load got to a little kid? Would you be responsible then?

    I'm trying to figure out where your responsibility starts. So far, you only seem to accept responsibility for yourself, but not for others. I'm hoping that I'm wrong about that. I think of you as a caring person. In a pandemic, it really matters what we do. I want you to stay healthy, and I don't want you to cause someone else to suffer, or die.

    I don't know where you live, but in the USA, 660K have died already. Covid is real, it's not a hoax, we are lucky to have reliable science to follow. Don't be a statistic, don't add to the horrible statistic by spreading covid to others, or make yourself ground zero for an even worse variant than D.

    CYDdhartaTreeManOakTownA
  • xlJ_dolphin_473xlJ_dolphin_473 1572 Pts   -  
    @MichaelElpers
    I don’t see the logic in your point. An airbag in a car may occasionally suffocate a young child, but that is not grounds to sue the government for making them a legal requirement in all new cars. They may cause occasional harm, but on the whole, they cause far more harm than good. It’s the same with vaccines.
    TreeManBlastcatPlaffelvohfenCYDdhartaOakTownA
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4021 Pts   -   edited September 13
    The president of the US is not the "chief citizen"; there is no hierarchy of citizens, as the Declaration of Independence states:
    We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness—That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
    What this says in essence is that all individuals are equal before the law and do not form any legitimate power hierarchy, and that the government derives its power from the people and is subservient to them. The president, specifically, is the head of the executive branch of the government - who executes the will of the legislative branch, the Congress (see Articles I and II of the constitution).

    You are confusing the president of the US with the king/queen of the UK. The role of the American government is to secure people's unalienable rights, not to "protect the citizens" by means of restricting those rights. The latter, in fact, is the role exactly opposite to that of a legitimate government, and, as the Declaration prescribes, warrants alteration or abolishment of the usurped government.
    The role of a monarchy is different: it is to rule over citizens. Part of it may be their protection by restriction of their rights. The people who wrote the foundational US documents saw this as illegitimate and tyrannical, and that is precisely the reason they left Europe (ridden with monarchies) in the first place and founded a relatively free society here.

    They did not see individuals as slaves of the group, existing with the sole purpose of maximizing some abstract metric of "well-being of the group". They saw them as free self-sufficient creatures whose only responsibility before each other was not to interfere in their lives without their consent - and to protect each other from those who do. That is a completely different approach to state-building, and it is unfortunate that "progressive" people today want to revert it back to the old good feudal-European approach. As always, "for the greater good", of course.

    What the heck is "the greater good"? No one has ever defined that, but everyone swears by that. Figures. The country I was born in sacrificed tens of millions in order to achieve that greater good... They would have sacrificed far more yet, had not this greater good manifested itself as empty shelves, breadlines and dead currency.
    Blastcat
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 13

    " The president of the US is not the "chief citizen"

    Wrong:

    President Franklin D. Roosevelt probably summed up the duties of this role best when he called the presidency “preeminently a place of moral leadership.” As a representative of the nation’s people, the president automatically assumes the role of its chief citizen, or popular leader. The nature of this role mandates a certain trust between the president and the people, since it is the president’s duty to work for the public interest amidst competing private interests, and to place the nation’s best interests above the interests of any one group or citizen. In turn, the president relies on public support to help pass his legislative agenda through Congress—gaining the trust of the public with regard to these issues through exposure, straightforwardness, and strong leadership.



    ________________

    " You are confusing the president of the US with the king/queen of the UK. "

    Nope.
    They also might be chief citizen, but I'm really only talking about the POTUS.
    ___________________

    " What the heck is "the greater good"? No one has ever defined that, "

    Wrong.
    Here is at least one simple definition.


    The Greater Good Theory (Utilitarianism) Philosophers refer to it as a “teleological” system. The Greek word “telos” means end or goal. That means that this ethical system determines morality by the end result.
    PlaffelvohfenCYDdhartaOakTownA
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 13


  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 13


  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 888 Pts   -  
    @xlJ_dolphin_473

    You're not supposed to sit a young child in the front seat anyway.  Regardless I think there an argument to be made that seatbelts and airbags shouldn't be required.

    Additionally I guess you aren't forced to drive a car.  Where the vaccine you aren't really given an option. 
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1647 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    The role of chief citizen is also known as the role of chief of state. The main purpose of this role is for the president to be an inspiration to the American people for the republic of the United States.
    That certainly doesn't describe Dementia Joe.

  • @Blastcat

    Children....

    It seems you and Biden both have an attraction to them. Children under 12 can't get vaccinated in case you do not know. Even if you're vaccinated, you can still carry and transmit the virus, therefore you can still give it to children. Also, here's some numbers regarding children:

    Total number of pediatric COVID cases: 
    • 5,292,837 total child COVID-19 cases reported, and children represented 15.5% (5,292,837/34,198,122) of all cases
    • Overall rate: 7,032 cases per 100,000 children in the population
    Child Hospitalization rates:
    • Among states reporting, children ranged from 1.6%-4.0% of their total cumulated hospitalizations, and 0.1%-1.9% of all their child COVID-19 cases resulted in hospitalization
    Mortality rate in children:

    • Among states reporting, children were 0.00%-0.27% of all COVID-19 deaths, and 7 states reported zero child deaths
    • ​In states reporting, 0.00%-0.03 of all child COVID-19 cases resulted in death

    You see, children aren't really the problem here, it's the adults who have a constitutional right to choose.
  • anarchist100anarchist100 556 Pts   -   edited September 14
    Blastcat said:
    They don't have the right to infect me through force or fraud, however other than that it's not their responsibility to go out of their way to prevent me from getting sick. It's mine.

    Anarchist, thanks for your answer, but I didn't ask if they have the right to infect you through force or fraud.They might be infected without knowing it. So you could ask them if they are infected, and they could honestly say "No" and be wrong. It's interesting to me that you say everyone is alone defending themselves against the covid when science tells us otherwise. The virus spreads by people. Unvaccinated people carry a heavier load once infected than vaccinated people and we also know by science that unvaccinated people get infected easier, have way more chance of serious effects, such as dying.

    You can't get infected if nobody is around. You might walk around in a plastic bubble and can never be infected by anything at all. You might never come out of your room until it's all over maybe in a few years or so. If you never meet anyone, you are safe. But my question implies that you are meeting people. They might or might not be vaccinated. If they infect you, and they have not been vaccinated, your chances have fallen drastically. If they would have been vaccinated, your chances would be better.
    I would argue that it's my responsibility to assess the situation for myself and make a decision based off of what I know, no one is forcing me to attend, so it's not really their responsibility to make it totally safe for me.
    It seems that you are saying that nobody should care for other people's health. We know that children are dying of covid. What if your viral load got to a little kid? Would you be responsible then?
    I think that is the responsibility of the parents.
    I'm trying to figure out where your responsibility starts. So far, you only seem to accept responsibility for yourself, but not for others. I'm hoping that I'm wrong about that. I think of you as a caring person. In a pandemic, it really matters what we do. I want you to stay healthy, and I don't want you to cause someone else to suffer, or die.
    My main duty to other is to not force my will upon them, and in my actions recognize that they are self-owning sovereign beings with the right to govern their own lives.
    I don't know where you live, but in the USA, 660K have died already. Covid is real, it's not a hoax, we are lucky to have reliable science to follow. Don't be a statistic, don't add to the horrible statistic by spreading covid to others, or make yourself ground zero for an even worse variant than D.


  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1647 Pts   -  
    Blastcat said:

    But say, if you go to a party where you don't even know if people got vaccinated or not. If you are not vaccinated, you might inadvertently spread the disease to others. Would you be responsible for their illness then?

    If you go to a party where you don't even know if people got vaccinated or not. If you are vaccinated, you might inadvertently spread the disease to others. Would you be responsible for their illness then?
  • DeeDee 4301 Pts   -  
    A mandate I don’t agree with , the alternative as in digital Covid certs is a lot better and let’s these clots realise their choices have consequences 


    There is an easy an effective way around this as excercised in my country as in every vaccinated citizen has to carry a digital covid cert you cannot enter any restaurants , concert halls , libraries etc , etc , without producing a Covid cert …..if you plan on catching a plane and you have no digital cert you have to produce an up to date medical cert saying you are Covid free also one coming back , if you get Covid at your destination you’re stuck there  isolated at your own cost .

    You want to hear the wails of the unvaccinated at the “injustice “ of it all , also we are nearly fully vaccinated as the Delta Variant swept through the unvaccinated of the country it’s pretty dreadful with many now saying they wouldn’t wish it on their worst enemy 

    Incidentally I was out for a meal on Saturday in a popular restaurant a party of 4 Americans in front of me were refused entry as they had no Covid certs or anything equivalent they wailed like banshees at the “injustice “ of it all 

    In Australia all the unvaccinated “hero’s”  I read are now squealing for the vax as Delta does it’s stuff

    I have no sympathy for those selfish unvaccinated who get it I hope most do and have plenty of time to regret their choices , I also think those who have not a valid reason for being unvaccinated should be fired from any job where they’re in contact with others 
  • anarchist100anarchist100 556 Pts   -   edited September 14
    It's not my responsibility to make situations safe for people. That said, if you're worried about others, and you take it upon yourself to keep them safe in any situation where they are with you, then you have my respect.
    Blastcat
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 14
    It's not my responsibility to make situations safe for people. That said, if you're worried about others, and you take it upon yourself to keep them safe in any situation where they are with you, then you have my respect.

    So, you respect those who take care of people and you don't want to take care of people. It's good for others to do, but not good for you to do what you say is worthy of respect. Interesting.

    Do you respect yourself for holding the position that you only should take care of yourself and not anyone else?
  • anarchist100anarchist100 556 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat
    I do want to take care of people, I just don't think I have a duty to do so.
    Blastcat
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 14
    @Blastcat
    I do want to take care of people, I just don't think I have a duty to do so.
    I stand corrected, and I'm honestly surprised by your answer.
    Why do you want to take care of people?
  • MichaelElpersMichaelElpers 888 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    I would like to point out that the mandate they are trying to roll out exempts congress.  If this doesn't raise flags for people regardless of whether you agree with vaccines or not, I'm not sure what will wake people up.

    Also here's some vaers reporting on the vaccine for U.s. and EU.

    https://healthimpactnews.com/2021/cdc-teens-injected-with-covid-shots-have-7-5-x-more-deaths-15-x-more-disabilities-44-x-more-hospitalizations-than-all-fda-approved-vaccines-in-2021/

    https://medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?TABLE=ON&GROUP1=CAT&EVENTS=ON&VAX=COVID19
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1647 Pts   -  

    I don't think it should be mandatory, I wouldn't demand it to be mandatory


    -Joe Biden, 4 Dec 2020

    Blastcat
  • BlastcatBlastcat 178 Pts   -   edited September 14
    CYDdharta said:

    I don't think it should be mandatory, I wouldn't demand it to be mandatory


    -Joe Biden, 4 Dec 2020


    Times have changed, Cyd.  The Delta variant has changed everything. Biden could not have expected that so many people would REFUSE to take the vaccines. The Delta variant was first identified in India in December 2020.

    You have Joe talking against mandates in December 2020
    It's possible he didn't know about it, and it's possible that he didn't know it would be so contagious. He knows it full well now.

    The world knows.
    And the world also knows that if people keep refusing to be vaccinated, variants will continue to appear. We might not be able to protect ourselves from a new deadlier, even more contagious variant than the Delta which is 50% more contagious than the original strain of SARS-CoV-2.

    Check your facts, CYD.
    Could save your life.


    CYDdharta
  • CYDdhartaCYDdharta 1647 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    Delta didn't actually change anything other than the administration's talking points.  It's more communicable, but less dangerous.  In terms of communicability, Covid always was the new flu; sooner or later everyone is going to get it.

    You might be right, that Dementia Joe and his band of bubble buds didn't realize there would be a fair number of people who wouldn't want to be jabbed with an experimental drug to keep them safe from a virus with a 99.6% survival rate, particularly among a segment of the population that have been used for medical testing without their consent.  The Biden administration certainly has demonstrated that they're out of touch with anything outside the elite coastal bubbles.
  • SkepticalOneSkepticalOne Gold Premium Member 1208 Pts   -   edited September 15
    @anarchist100

    A person's health is their own responsibility

    Sure, but if decisions affect other people they are, by definition, not f*cking personal.

    CYDdharta
    I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible.
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