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What is the true definition of "ad hominem"?

Debate Information

@Blastcat

"I am very happy that you would like to repair our very damaged relationship.
I really dislike insults.

So, for now, lets not talk about Dee. Lets talk about you and I.
We got off on the wrong foot, and I would like for us to be able to engage one another even though we disagree on certain things."

It is a good place to start. Personal talks are the best way to repair.

"As to my ideas concerning ad hominems, I wonder if you know what those are. You say they are too broad.
We can start by talking about that."

Okay, here's where you go wrong about ad hominems. Let me give you an example, then I'll explain how this isn't ad hominem.

"Right...especially if that 'water' happens to have the same number of electrons spinning around the oxygen atoms as the hydrogen. In which case, it is going to do more than just make Scientist 2's teeth go white and bright. See if you can work that out." (From "Can You Die from Drinking Water")

You accused it to be ad hominem, but it wasn't a rude comment. The translation of ad hominem is "to the person". You are taking the translation as the definition. The definition is "(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining." so he was going against my point, not me directly.
Dee
"I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."



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  • BlastcatBlastcat 409 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    Argument Topic: I'm impressed

    Luigi7255 said:
    @Blastcat

    "I am very happy that you would like to repair our very damaged relationship.
    I really dislike insults.

    So, for now, lets not talk about Dee. Lets talk about you and I.
    We got off on the wrong foot, and I would like for us to be able to engage one another even though we disagree on certain things."

    It is a good place to start. Personal talks are the best way to repair.

    "As to my ideas concerning ad hominems, I wonder if you know what those are. You say they are too broad.
    We can start by talking about that."

    Okay, here's where you go wrong about ad hominems. Let me give you an example, then I'll explain how this isn't ad hominem.

    "Right...especially if that 'water' happens to have the same number of electrons spinning around the oxygen atoms as the hydrogen. In which case, it is going to do more than just make Scientist 2's teeth go white and bright. See if you can work that out." (From "Can You Die from Drinking Water")

    You accused it to be ad hominem, but it wasn't a rude comment. The translation of ad hominem is "to the person". You are taking the translation as the definition. The definition is "(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining." so he was going against my point, not me directly.

    I don't recall the incident, sorry.
    I don't even recall that comment.

    Of course, I don't see any insults in what you just quoted.
    If it was Dee's comment, I can tell you why I might have tagged it as a fallacy if it wasn't.
    He pisses me off so much that I don't like him.

    So, I tagged a few of his comments that might not have been insulting to anyone .. I never pretend to be perfect.
    too easy to knock me down if I did. His insults are completely irrational, and he isn't the only person in the world who can be irrational. So, I tagged his comment just for fun. He probably insults me for fun.

    Now, I've stopped doing that.
    I've had my childish fun.
    Game over.


    As to the TRUE definition ..... I go by what I've been taught. Ad hominem is a silly diversion tactic. Instead of talking TO the idea.. to the topic, one talks TO the person.. about the person, instead. To insult someone anytime is just wrong. To insult someone in the context of an honest debate is completely self defeating.

    If you don't agree with me on the definition I just provided, let me know.
    We have a whole thread to trash this out properly.. and I do hope, without any insult from either side.


    Here is a source that we two might agree is a good one:
  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 565 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    @Blastcat

    It is a good definition, and even better examples, with detailing how it can be used, but it still doesn't work here, since he was addressing my point directly, and not attacking my character, nor my debating capabilities.
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 565 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    "I don't recall the incident, sorry.
    I don't even recall that comment."

    Here it is: https://debateisland.com/discussion/7657/can-you-die-from-drinking-water
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • BlastcatBlastcat 409 Pts   -  
    Luigi7255 said:
    @Blastcat

    "I don't recall the incident, sorry.
    I don't even recall that comment."

    Here it is: https://debateisland.com/discussion/7657/can-you-die-from-drinking-water

    Darn, I can't offer you a screen shot .. Dee insults me at least once before.. so, I got angry.
    Yeah, even I have feelings.

    " Dee 4404 Pts   -  October 28
    @Blastcat

    I have reported you and asked for your removal as all you ever do is accuse others of Ad Hominiems and your constant trolling has being noted , you are not here to debate because you never do , you’re here to troll "___________________

    and he wasn't the only one who got me upset:

    Swolliw 1246 Pts   -  October 27
    @Blastcat
    I think that is more than enough of your malicious nonsense. Will you kindly remove yourself from this site? And never come back.

    But you might be thinking of this:

    Blastcat 269 Pts   -  October 27
    Argument Topic: More juvenile arrogant sarcasm

    Swolliw said:
    @Luigi7255
    Allergy to water. It's possible, yet very rare.

    Right...especially if that "water" happens to have the same number of electrons spinning around the oxygen atoms as the hydrogen. In which case, it is going to do more than just make Scientist 2's teeth go white and bright. See if you can work that out.

     You attacked his character in an attempt to undermine his argument. YET AGAIN.

     

    Ad hominem attacks can take the form of overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument. The result of an ad hom attack can be to undermine someone's case without actually having to engage with it.

    ______________________________________

    Lol.. reading that.. I must have been thinking of another comment. There was NO sarcasm, no insults, so I did make a huge mistake there. Sorry.


  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 565 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    Yeah, when one gets angry with one thing, they may lose their sight and go for what isn't a part of it.
    Blastcat
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • BlastcatBlastcat 409 Pts   -  
    Luigi7255 said:
    @Blastcat

    Yeah, when one gets angry with one thing, they may lose their sight and go for what isn't a part of it.

    I can't pretend to not get angry.
    I got over it.

    In my anger, I think I was more prone to mistake.
    I must have been thinking of another comment. Don't know what comment was sarcastic.
    But it would not surprise me if one of his comments were.

    I think we agree that insults have no place in an honest conversation.
    Do we?
  • BlastcatBlastcat 409 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    Argument Topic: What do we do about this:

    Listen, little Blastey boy, you don't have the right to police arguments. I may disagree with him, but I understand that you are trying to police arguments in a way that makes it seem like you are a moderator, when you are not. Btw, policing arguments is a fallacy, which, even better, is A TYPE OF AD HOMINEM (Tone Policing), so you either can give up this charade of being a hoity-toity little angel of debates trying to discern which is suitable to your wants or continue to be part of a never-ending battle of trolls on this website, albeit you're on the troll's side. And I will send you off on your inevitable "OmG, aD hoMinEm" attack on me with this:

    NO ONE WILL NOT FALL UNDER YOUR FOOT OF POLICING

    __________________________________

    And here was my reply:
    __________________________________

    Argument Topic: Luigi imagines a power that I do not have, and insults me

    Luigi7255 said:
    @Blastcat

    Listen, little Blastey boy, you don't have the right to police arguments. I may disagree with him, but I understand that you are trying to police arguments in a way that makes it seem like you are a moderator, when you are not.

    I am not the police of arguments.
    However, I know a bit about how they can be undertaken.

    I have no "police power" in here.
    I know that I am not a moderator.

    If Luigi imagines that he has hurt my widdle feewings, he is wrong about that, as well.
    Btw, policing arguments is a fallacy, which, even better, is A TYPE OF AD HOMINEM (Tone Policing),
    Tone policing (also tone trolling, tone argument, and tone fallacy) is an ad hominem (personal attack) and anti-debate tactic based on criticizing a person for expressing emotion. Tone policing detracts from the truth or falsity of a statement by attacking the tone in which it was presented rather than the message itself

    I never would, nor have I ever attacked someone for expressing emotion.
    So, I cannot be said to be guilty of tone policing.

    Ever.
    so you either can give up this charade of being a hoity-toity little angel of debates trying to discern which is suitable to your wants or continue to be part of a never-ending battle of trolls on this website, albeit you're on the troll's side.
    He calls me a troll.
    Which is an ad hominem attack, or " to the person ".

    And I will send you off on your inevitable "OmG, aD hoMinEm" attack on me with this:

    NO ONE WILL NOT FALL UNDER YOUR FOOT OF POLICING


    This implies that I put my foot on people, which to me, sounds as if he is trying real hard to insult me.

    I'll take it as an insult.. and i will take the formatting as an indication of " anger ". I have no problems when someone expresses their emotions. I have a problem when someone tries to put me down. It's verbal abuse, I think it's petty, and for sure, it's completely irrelevant to any honourable conversation or debate.

    Luigi attacked his opponent's character in an attempt to undermine my argument.

    Ad hominem attacks can take the form of overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument. The result of an ad hom attack can be to undermine someone's case without actually having to engage with it.



  • DeeDee 4703 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    @Blastcat

    If it was Dee's comment, I can tell you why I might have tagged it as a fallacy if it wasn't.
    He pisses me off so much that I don't like him

    Your obsession with me is pretty weird. I know you don’t like me you don’t like anyone it seems as the whole site now has kindly asked you to constantly stop complaining and actually debate but do you listen?

    Blastcat
  • DeeDee 4703 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    WOW ! Blastat typing away 24/7 now complaining about his hurt feelings and posting up asking for a definition of a fallacy he thinks means “ don’t hurt my feelings “ … 


     


    Blastcat
  • Luigi7255Luigi7255 565 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    "I think we agree that insults have no place in an honest conversation.
    Do we?"

    I assume you were going to finish that sentence with "agree", so I agree.

    And yes, I did lash out, I was angered at what you were doing at that time.
    "I will never change who I am just because you do not approve."
  • DeeDee 4703 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    @Blastcat


    Darn, I can't offer you a screen shot .. Dee insults me at least once before.. so, I got angry.
    Yeah, even I have feelings.


    No I didn’t , I called you out on your constant trolling , spamming and complaining  every else has done so also……..you seem  to think you’re a moderator and everyone has to walk on eggshells to stop you sulking …..life doesn’t work this way 

    You cannot go a post without mentioning me , you’re obsessed 

    Dee 4404 Pts   -  October 28
    @Blastcat 

    I have reported you and asked for your removal as all you ever do is accuse others of Ad Hominiems and your constant trolling has being noted , you are not here to debate because you never do , you’re here to troll "___________________


    That statement by me in is in reply to your constant stalking , trolling , spamming and complaining …..you’re a troll 
    Blastcat
  • DeeDee 4703 Pts   -  
  • BlastcatBlastcat 409 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    Argument Topic: Lashing out

    Luigi7255 said:
    @Blastcat

    "I think we agree that insults have no place in an honest conversation.
    Do we?"

    I assume you were going to finish that sentence with "agree", so I agree.

    And yes, I did lash out, I was angered at what you were doing at that time.

    So, I think we agree on a definition of ad hominem, and that insults have no place in an honourable conversation.
    You say you did lash out and I don't want to talk to people who insult me, as Dee has done 4 times so far in this thread.
    I don't want to engage people who insult me.

    What do you think about my reply to your comment that I quote that I regard as very demeaning to me? You lashed out.. I didn't like it. I'm not sure if I feel like getting more abuse from you, not sure if I should still try to repair. For example, I don't see any attempt to apologize yet. And if you think that Dee is out of line, you could tag his comments as fallacies when he attacks people's character.

    That would be nice
  • DeeDee 4703 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat

    So, I think we agree on a definition of ad hominem, and that insults have no place in an honourable conversation.
    You say you did lash out and I don't want to talk to people who insult me, as Dee has done 4 times so far in this thread. 

    I haven’t “insulted” you as usual you’ve taken offence at truthful remarks. So here you are again dictating to others how you’re going to re-act and blubber at any remark that hurts your liddle gurrlly fweelilings


    I don't want to engage people who insult me.

    Translation : you find  offence everywhere as an excuse not to debate 

    What do you think about my reply to your comment that I quote that I regard as very demeaning to me? You lashed out.. I didn't like it. I'm not sure if I feel like getting more abuse from you, not sure if I should still try to repair. 

    Ahh your fweelings are hurt again …..another day you will spend wailing about your b-utt hurt 

    For example, I don't see any attempt to apologize yet.

    @Luigi you best apologise at once for expressing yourself , you only have yourself to blame if B gets even more emotional 

     And if you think that Dee is out of line, you could tag his comments as fallacies when he attacks people's character.

    Ahh yes indeed still trying to get a gang to back you after your failed debates deliberately naming 
    me didn’t get you a gang of bully boys to back you and here you go pleading again for support to continue your vendetta ………

    I know you keep boasting you’re an “expert “ in martial arts , so what ? Your threats don’t work here big mouth ……

    That would be nice



    Blastcat
  • BlastcatBlastcat 409 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    Argument Topic: What to do about people who "troll"?

    1. By definition, a troll is someone who disrupts the flow of a conversation or someone who deliberately pisses people off online to get a reaction, well, I suppose tagging their insults as fallacies does get a reaction. The report to admin feature is as dead as is Debra AI. The admins told me in an email that cyber bullying and trolling just doesn't happen in here. So they encourage the abuse.

    I can't stop someone from trying to get a reaction even though it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. The topic here is what is the true definition of ad hominem, and not my character or behaviour. I tried blocking some trolls, but they could see my comments, and I could see that they have commented, so I had to take a look.. it was a useless waste of time. When I block someone, I would love to not be able to see that they have written something, and not have them be able to see what I write either.So, I get to endure the troll's insults. How annoying. How petty.

    How irrelevant.

    2. If more people would stand up to those who wish to troll, or use constant insults, the less we would have of this.
    In fact, we would not need to explore what ad hominem means because it would be moot. Only honourable people would be participating and these never need to put anyone down. If anything, we should always try to help people UP, not try to discredit them in such a meaningless way. Ironically, I get the heat for complaining about troll behavior and the troll doesn't get any criticism for insulting people in the first place.

    3. Therefore, Since the admins will do nothing about abuse, I bother to explain why I think some people are being disruptive by using insults.. one or two ok, but a constant barrage wastes everyone's time, including the person who takes the time to try to hurt our widdle feewings. I think that we should stand up to the trolls. If enough people do, they might get the hint that their insults are not wanted. If we say nothing, it just encourages them to keep doing what they have done ... Lets not discount peer pressure. It's a powerful tool when we need to control people's disruptive, nasty behaviour.

    You can choose to do it the long way, pointing out the abuse, or just tag the comment as a fallacy, since insults in an honest debate constitutes an abusive "to the person" logical fallacy. I do both so that the abuse gets noticed. People are complaining about my notices so they are noticing. You complained to me about those.. so you noticed. We are talking about ad hominem.  We have the person that has caused this conversation right here, insulting me as per his usual modus operandi.

    The poster boy of disruptive, trollish behaviour, if you will.
    Dee
  • DeeDee 4703 Pts   -   edited November 2021
    @Blastcat

    Yet another wailing lecture from the site preacher who wants every member of DI to abide by his rules for debate number one being not to hurt his feelings or he will run to mods squealing 

    Also he’s very concerned about trolling yet spends his time following and stalking me like a love sick puppy and if he’s so b-utt hurt only has to use the mute option , but no trolling is his preferred option 

    Also his concern over trolling is confusing seeing as his latest debate topic mentions me six times such is his obsession and he has also begged fellow members to attack me yet he feels …..wait for it …..picked on …..hilarious 
    Blastcat
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