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It’s not fine to be fat. Celebrating obesity is irresponsible

Debate Information

It seems to be a pretty prevalent phenomenon worldwide now to celebrate morbid obesity with ridiculous campaigns like body positive that seems to actively encourage morbidly obese people to remain so 

The health implications of such a lifestyle are truly appalling yet the PC crowd will shriek and shrill dare you raise objections to the glorifying of such a lifestyle 

For a perfectly valid analogy once upon a time anorexic models were a big thing ( they’re some still around ) until people realised  encouraging such a lifestyle was totally irresponsible . 

If it’s not socially acceptable to accept someone starving themselves to death why is it “ right on” and practically seen as a positive to celebrate morbid obesity and glorify it in the media as individuals stuff themselves to death?


What a strange world we live in you will be praised for encouraging an anorexic to get help but shouted down by the baying mob if you tell someone morbidly obese to lose weight 

BlastcatZeusAres42
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  • xlJ_dolphin_473xlJ_dolphin_473 1663 Pts   -  
    There's no excuse for being mean to someone if they are overweight, but there is also no excuse for pretending everything's fine, when there are actual health risks. What is needed is an honest conversation with a trusted individual.
    BlastcatZeusAres42
  • DeeDee 4487 Pts   -  
    @xlJ_dolphin_473


    There's no excuse for being mean to someone if they are overweight,

    Agreed , there is no point in pretending a problem doesn’t exist 

    but there is also no excuse for pretending everything's fine, when there are actual health risks. What is needed is an honest conversation with a trusted individual

    What is also needed is media and over the  top PC types stop trying to glorify obesity and attempting to normalise  it 
    Blastcat
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4155 Pts   -  
    Obesity is like any other adverse health condition: there is no need to pick on someone for having it, and there is no point denying that it is an adverse condition.

    Now, with obesity specifically, there is one additional factor at play: it is something that directly depends on one's life choices. Unlike cancer or acne that just come and go somewhat randomly, with only partial ability of the individual to affect it, obesity in virtually all cases (short of some highly unusual health conditions that wreck havoc on the body metabolism and digestion) is a direct result of irresponsibility on the part of the individual. It is in this sense similar to poverty, or alcoholism, or addiction to TV series. As such it can serve as an indicator of certain traits on the part of the individual: someone not taking care of their body is a major red flag for someone who holds themselves and others to a high standard (as I do).

    So, look, I am not going to discriminate in any way against an obese person. But their obesity will be a factor in whether I include them in my social circle, and if so, to what extent. They can be a good acquaintance, but a close friend, let alone a romantic interest? Only if they start doing something work to improve their health. I am a sports freak, and I expect those close to me to, at least, do the bare minimum required to not have fat hanging from their sides like an elephant's hide.
    Blastcat
  • OakTownAOakTownA 93 Pts   -  
    More research is showing that your life style is a better assessment for overall health outcomes than weight. All you can tell about a person's weight is how they appear to you. Unless you know the person well, you have no way of knowing what they eat, how much they eat, how often they eat, or how often they exercise. For example, I'm 5'6", and weigh about 255 lbs. I am "morbidly obese." Given this, and only this information, what would YOU suggest I do about it? What is my blood pressure? Resting heart rate? Cholesterol levels? These are actual indicators of heart disease. How's my blood sugar level? As a culture, when someone skinny states that they have  a fast metabolism, no one blinks an eye, and many express feelings of jealousy. However, when a bigger person says they have a slow metabolism, people generally express doubt.  It's also important to remember that BMI is only a ration of your height and weight. This means that two people who are the same height and weight but have drastically different body types will have the same BMI. I also noticed that you did not have any references. Here are a handful that support my position.




    piloteer
  • DeeDee 4487 Pts   -   edited November 5
    @OakTownA

    ** I also noticed that you did not have any references. Here are a handful that support my position.**

    You totally ignored the main point of my argument in  a rush to defend obesity .

    I also specifically mentioned morbid obesity which is an extremely dangerous  preventable self induced ( mostly) condition ,there are zero positives in promoting such a lifestyle 


  • This just reminds me of some dishonesty cognitive bias although I can't remember the name exactly. An example is if a friend asks us if we think they should lose weight and we say "no, you look absolutely fine" just to be nice when what we're really thinking is "yeah, you could do with losing a couple of pounds."

    As far as I am concerned obesity is a health issue and telling someone that they are fine you are not really doing them any favors; you could actually be doing more harm than good.



  • OakTownAOakTownA 93 Pts   -  
    Fatphobia is a real thing, and it is especially rampant in health care.


    Promoting the idea that people come in all shapes and sizes (ie the body positivity movement) reduces stigma against fat people. Decreasing stigma is a good thing, and results in better mental health outcomes, and better overall health outcomes.

    It also reduces discrimination in other fields, such as employment. People who are perceived as  fat or overweight are less likely to be hired and less likely to be promoted.
    www.forbes.com/sites/virgietovar/2018/09/30/my-weight-affected-my-career/?sh=504c7871139f

    I also noticed that you completely ignored my argument, and have still offered no evidence to support your argument. You are still assuming that obese automatically results in negative health outcomes. This is not true, as I demonstrated above.
    Blastcatpiloteer

  • Who are you speaking with?



  • I'm in another debate right now. I will come back and elaborate more here in a minute. One thing I do want to make clear just now is that I am saying it is ok to be mean to people that are overweight. I'm overweight myself right now but as I said, I will get back to this.



  • OakTownAOakTownA 93 Pts   -  
    Obesity is like any other adverse health condition: there is no need to pick on someone for having it, and there is no point denying that it is an adverse condition.

    What is your proof that obesity is anything other than an arbitrary description of a person's weight?

    Now, with obesity specifically, there is one additional factor at play: it is something that directly depends on one's life choices. Unlike cancer or acne that just come and go somewhat randomly, with only partial ability of the individual to affect it, obesity in virtually all cases (short of some highly unusual health conditions that wreck havoc on the body metabolism and digestion) is a direct result of irresponsibility on the part of the individual.

    Proof, please. I qualify as "morbidly obese." Please tell me what I'm doing "wrong." There are many conditions/diseases that can lead to weight gain, including PCOS (which effects roughly one in 12 women in the United States), hypothyroidism (which effects approximately 5% of the population), depression (which affects millions of people in the world), and menopause.


    The idea that fat people are fat because the overeat and don't exercise is not true. Just as there are many thin people who eat junk food and don't exercise, there are many fat people who eat healthy and work out.

    If people were able to control their weight simply by changing their diet and exercising, diets would work, but they don't. 95% of people who lose weight gain most, if not all, of the weight back, and will often put on more weight.

    Metabolism is much more complex that calories in = calories out, and just as some people have fast metabolisms, some people have slow metabolisms.

    It is in this sense similar to poverty, or alcoholism, or addiction to TV series. As such it can serve as an indicator of certain traits on the part of the individual: someone not taking care of their body is a major red flag for someone who holds themselves and others to a high standard (as I do).

    Statements and thought processes like this are why there is discrimination against fat people. After all, anyone who is fat is obviously making poor decisions and don't "take care of their bodies." (sarcasm) This ignores so many other factors, like physiological and genetic reasons someone might be larger or socioeconomic factors. Low income people who live in food deserts may not have easy access to healthy foods, or have the time to cook at home. Stating that people who are fat simply "do not take care of their bod(ies)" is ridiculously simplistic.







    Plaffelvohfen
  • OakTownAOakTownA 93 Pts   -  
    No one in particular; I was outlining my argument opposed to the OP.
  • Right, I do have to say that reason has prevailed and I am in more agreement with the OP. I didn't even know this was a thing that is happening. Anyway, if we start to do what the OP is saying is happening we end up creating a public perception issue; we end up giving the wrong message i.e that it is ok to eat and drink whatever we want.

    Medically speaking being obese is not fine.

    Risks of obesity

    It's very important to take steps to tackle obesity because, as well as causing obvious physical changes, it can lead to a number of serious and potentially life-threatening conditions.

    These include:

    Obesity can also affect your quality of life and lead to psychological problems, such as depression and low self-esteem.

    https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/obesity/


    Complications

    People with obesity are more likely to develop a number of potentially serious health problems, including:Heart disease and strokes. Obesity makes you more likely to have high blood pressure and abnormal cholesterol levels, which are risk factors for heart disease and strokes.Type 2 diabetes. Obesity can affect the way the body uses insulin to control blood sugar levels. This raises the risk of insulin resistance and diabetes.Certain cancers. Obesity may increase the risk of cancer of the uterus, cervix, endometrium, ovary, breast, colon, rectum, esophagus, liver, gallbladder, pancreas, kidney and prostate.Digestive problems. Obesity increases the likelihood of developing heartburn, gallbladder disease and liver problems.Sleep apnea. People with obesity are more likely to have sleep apnea, a potentially serious disorder in which breathing repeatedly stops and starts during sleep.Osteoarthritis. Obesity increases the stress placed on weight-bearing joints, in addition to promoting inflammation within the body. These factors may lead to complications such as osteoarthritis.Severe COVID-19 symptoms. Obesity increases the risk of developing severe symptoms if you become infected with the virus that causes coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). People who have severe cases of COVID-19 may require treatment in intensive care units or even mechanical assistance to breathe.

    https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/obesity/symptoms-causes/syc-20375742


    Celebrating something that could lead someone to an early grave is not something that I find a kind thing to do at all. Of course, bullying is something that needs to be dealt with here as well. However, what we most certainly do not need is people thinking it's ok to do things with themselves that could lead them to an early death!



    piloteer



  • SonofasonSonofason 378 Pts   -   edited November 5
    Dee said:
    It seems to be a pretty prevalent phenomenon worldwide now to celebrate morbid obesity with ridiculous campaigns like body positive that seems to actively encourage morbidly obese people to remain so 

    The health implications of such a lifestyle are truly appalling yet the PC crowd will shriek and shrill dare you raise objections to the glorifying of such a lifestyle 

    For a perfectly valid analogy once upon a time anorexic models were a big thing ( they’re some still around ) until people realised  encouraging such a lifestyle was totally irresponsible . 

    If it’s not socially acceptable to accept someone starving themselves to death why is it “ right on” and practically seen as a positive to celebrate morbid obesity and glorify it in the media as individuals stuff themselves to death?


    What a strange world we live in you will be praised for encouraging an anorexic to get help but shouted down by the baying mob if you tell someone morbidly obese to lose weight 

    I was once asked by a fat guy why I smoked.  I told him I like to smoke...so I smoke.  He said, don't you know it's going to kill you?  And I said, "I know a lot of old smokers, but I don't know any old fat people.  So, that being said...and put aside...there is no good reason to even bring up the size of a person, any more than there is a good reason to tell a smoker he should stop smoking.  People will do and be what they want to do and be.  So why not just leave us all alone, and keep your disapproval to yourself.  If you don't want to be fat, then don't be fat.  But do try to keep your mouth shut about the obesity of others.  It's actually none of your business.  And fat people really don't want to hear what you have to say about it.  And neither should they.

    And the girl in that photo above is HOT.
    OakTownApiloteer
  • SonofasonSonofason 378 Pts   -  
    Right, I do have to say that reason has prevailed and I am in more agreement with the OP. I didn't even know this was a thing that is happening. Anyway, if we start to do what the OP is saying is happening we end up creating a public perception issue; we end up giving the wrong message i.e that it is ok to eat and drink whatever we want.

    Medically speaking being obese is not fine.

    Risks of obesity

    It's very important to take steps to tackle obesity because, as well as causing obvious physical changes, it can lead to a number of serious and potentially life-threatening conditions.

    These include:

    Obesity can also affect your quality of life and lead to psychological problems, such as depression and low self-esteem.

    https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/obesity/


    Complications

    People with obesity are more likely to develop a number of potentially serious health problems, including:Heart disease and strokes. Obesity makes you more likely to have high blood pressure and abnormal cholesterol levels, which are risk factors for heart disease and strokes.Type 2 diabetes. Obesity can affect the way the body uses insulin to control blood sugar levels. This raises the risk of insulin resistance and diabetes.Certain cancers. Obesity may increase the risk of cancer of the uterus, cervix, endometrium, ovary, breast, colon, rectum, esophagus, liver, gallbladder, pancreas, kidney and prostate.Digestive problems. Obesity increases the likelihood of developing heartburn, gallbladder disease and liver problems.Sleep apnea. People with obesity are more likely to have sleep apnea, a potentially serious disorder in which breathing repeatedly stops and starts during sleep.Osteoarthritis. Obesity increases the stress placed on weight-bearing joints, in addition to promoting inflammation within the body. These factors may lead to complications such as osteoarthritis.Severe COVID-19 symptoms. Obesity increases the risk of developing severe symptoms if you become infected with the virus that causes coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). People who have severe cases of COVID-19 may require treatment in intensive care units or even mechanical assistance to breathe.

    https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/obesity/symptoms-causes/syc-20375742


    Celebrating something that could lead someone to an early grave is not something that I find a kind thing to do at all. Of course, bullying is something that needs to be dealt with here as well. However, what we most certainly do not need is people thinking it's ok to do things with themselves that could lead them to an early death!



    There is nothing wrong with going to an early grave.  There is nothing wrong with dying.  There is nothing wrong with being fat.  There is something wrong with people who are critical of the appearance others.  And the health of other people is none of your business.
    ZeusAres42DeeOakTownApiloteer
  • @Sonofason

    So why not just leave us all alone,
    They are paying for healthcare and that gives a second reason to invade privacy using the medical industry.
  • SonofasonSonofason 378 Pts   -   edited November 5
    John_C_87 said:
    @Sonofason

    So why not just leave us all alone,
    They are paying for healthcare and that gives a second reason to invade privacy using the medical industry.
    Are you suggesting fat people should not be allowed to have health care?
    OakTownApiloteer
  • SonofasonSonofason 378 Pts   -   edited November 5
    Sonofason said:
    Unbelievable
    Blastcat
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1297 Pts   -   edited November 5
    @Dee
    Fatties are among the ugliest people on the planet. They are a bit like religious nutters who simply can’t and won’t be told that they are undesirable misfits of society.
    Just as we should restrict religious practices we should not allow fatties on aircraft for example. Even if they were made to buy three seats, they are a safety risk to other passengers. They could still travel overseas on a cargo ship and be lifted on and off by crane.
    DeeZeusAres42piloteerBlastcat
  • DeeDee 4487 Pts   -   edited November 5
    @ZeusAres42

    Hi Z I think you may mean ……

    cognitive dissonance

    noun
    PSYCHOLOGY
    1. the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioural decisions and attitude change.
  • DeeDee 4487 Pts   -   edited November 5
    @OakTownA

    Fatphobia is a real thing, and it is especially rampant in health care. 


    I or no one else are doing that so your point is invalid , is your doctor guilty of Fatphobia when he /she tells you to lose weight ?

    Also normally obese parents allow their kids to stuff themselves to obesity this is willful child abuse 

    You didn’t even read your own source , the article claims they put obese students on diets and got them to lose weight and their attitudes changed to those who were obese , so your point is what exactly ?


    Promoting the idea that people come in all shapes and sizes (ie the body positivity movement) reduces stigma against fat people. Decreasing stigma is a good thing, and results in better mental health outcomes, and better overall health outcomes.


    Again you totally miss the point as in promoting the idea morbid obesity is something to celebrate is totally wrong on so many levels 

    Also normally obese parents kids follow the same eating patterns as the parents allowing your kids become obese and doing nothing about it is child abuse 



    It also reduces discrimination in other fields, such as employment. People who are perceived as  fat or overweight are less likely to be hired and less likely to be promoted.


    Yes the reason being employers are rightfully wary that plenty of sick may be by the obese days also a lot of jobs require a certain level of fitness 


    On my last trip to New York it was an absolute disgrace to see most the cops were obese and it wasn’t unusual to see cops leaning against their cars stuffing their faces with burgers or donuts 



    I also noticed that you completely ignored my argument, and have still offered no evidence to support your argument. You are still assuming that obese automatically results in negative health outcomes. This is not true, as I demonstrated above.


    You totally ignored my response as your making an emotional argument that totally misses the point but hey if you claim morbid obesity is healthy you’re wrong and that’s a fact 



    Again you’re totally ignoring the whole point of my topic and doing so deliberately because you refuse to acknowledge the implications of those who choose to be morbidly obese …..


    Morbid obesity preventable health risks ……

    Morbid obesity also increases your risk of developing other health and medical problems such as: Congestive heart failureCoronary artery or heart diseaseDepression.
    ...
    What is Morbid Obesity?
    • High blood pressure.
    • High cholesterol.
    • Diabetes.
    • Arthritis.
    • Sleep apnea.



  • DeeDee 4487 Pts   -   edited November 5
    @Sonofason

    I was once asked by a fat guy why I smoked.  I told him I like to smoke...so I smoke.  He said, don't you know it's going to kill you?  And I said, "I know a lot of old smokers, but I don't know any old fat people.  So, that being said...and put aside...there is no good reason to even bring up the size of a person, any more than there is a good reason to tell a smoker he should stop smoking.

    Which is why I don’t do it mostly. Did you not read the debate topic and what it actually said?

      People will do and be what they want to do and be.  

    Yes I think we all know this and obese parents normally stuff their kids as well resulting in obese kids which is child abuse 

    So why not just leave us all alone, and keep your disapproval to yourself.  

    I am leaving you alone I couldn’t care less if you eat and smoke yourself to death if you don’t value your life why should I?

    I just bet underneath all your false bravado you wished you didn’t smoke , I bet you deny it

    Again you totally missed the point 

    If you don't want to be fat, then don't be fat.

    Which is why I’m slim , tell me how many obese people do you think adore being obese? Watch as you deflect

      But do try to keep your mouth shut about the obesity of others. 

    No I won’t when the others promote obesity as something it’s not , you’re one of the PC crowd I was talking about who scream down anyone who advocates a healthy lifestyle 

     It's actually none of your business.  And fat people really don't want to hear what you have to say about it.  And neither should they.

    It’s all of my business when such a lifestyle is promoted  as something it’s not . I don’t care that morbidly obese people do not like home truths but they are going to get them , do you suggest we should all lie to them ? Should doctors be made tell them they’re absolutely fine? That’s what you’re saying right ?

    And the girl in that photo above is HOT.

    Here is another photo of your fantasy girl so try and stay calm if you call waves of blubber and a b-utt dragging the ground hot we have different interpretations of “hot” ……looks happy doesn’t she ….LOL  


    I don’t think the see through top does much for her do you?

    Hope she doesn’t break wind or her child behind her will end up getting blown to the next neighborhood …… Hey I see the poor child is wearing a mask ……wise child can you imagine the stink if this “beauty” blows …….
    BlastcatPlaffelvohfenZeusAres42OakTownA
  • DeeDee 4487 Pts   -  
    @Sonofason

    There is nothing wrong with going to an early grave. 

    Indeed so a morbidly obese persons ambition is an early grave that’s what your saying?

    There is something wrong with an early grave for most which is why most take steps to avoid it , but hey if your life is so worthless to you that’s your choice 

     There is nothing wrong with dying.  

    There is something wrong with putting it as a goal you wish to reach as quickly as possible 

    There is nothing wrong with being fat.  

    There is something wrong with being morbidly obese science agrees Also obese people morally alllow their kids to stuff themselves to obesity this is child abuse 


    There is something wrong with people who are critical of the appearance others. 

    You want to be morbidly obese fine go for it , you want to promote it and celebrate as something to be proud of I will speak out 

     And the health of other people is none of your business.

    I know but the promoting and celebrating of extremely dangerous lifestyle choices is my business which is why I agree with Advertisements pointing out the dangers of smoking we also have ones for proving healthy eating/ lifestyle  where I live 
    BlastcatPlaffelvohfenZeusAres42OakTownA
  • SonofasonSonofason 378 Pts   -  
    Dee said:
    @OakTownA

    Fatphobia is a real thing, and it is especially rampant in health care. 


    I or no one else are doing that so your point is invalid , is your doctor guilty of Fatphobia when he /she tells you to lose weight ?

    Also normally obese parents allow their kids to stuff themselves to obesity this is willful child abuse 

    You didn’t even read your own source , the article claims they put obese students on diets and got them to lose weight and their attitudes changed to those who were obese , so your point is what exactly ?


    Promoting the idea that people come in all shapes and sizes (ie the body positivity movement) reduces stigma against fat people. Decreasing stigma is a good thing, and results in better mental health outcomes, and better overall health outcomes.


    Again you totally miss the point as in promoting the idea morbid obesity is something to celebrate is totally wrong on so many levels 

    Also normally obese parents kids follow the same eating patterns as the parents allowing your kids become obese and doing nothing about it is child abuse 



    It also reduces discrimination in other fields, such as employment. People who are perceived as  fat or overweight are less likely to be hired and less likely to be promoted.


    Yes the reason being employers are rightfully wary that plenty of sick may be by the obese days also a lot of jobs require a certain level of fitness 


    On my last trip to New York it was an absolute disgrace to see most the cops were obese and it wasn’t unusual to see cops leaning against their cars stuffing their faces with burgers or donuts 



    I also noticed that you completely ignored my argument, and have still offered no evidence to support your argument. You are still assuming that obese automatically results in negative health outcomes. This is not true, as I demonstrated above.


    You totally ignored my response as your making an emotional argument that totally misses the point but hey if you claim morbid obesity is healthy you’re wrong and that’s a fact 



    Again you’re totally ignoring the whole point of my topic and doing so deliberately because you refuse to acknowledge the implications of those who choose to be morbidly obese …..


    Morbid obesity preventable health risks ……

    Morbid obesity also increases your risk of developing other health and medical problems such as: Congestive heart failureCoronary artery or heart diseaseDepression.
    ...
    What is Morbid Obesity?
    • High blood pressure.
    • High cholesterol.
    • Diabetes.
    • Arthritis.
    • Sleep apnea.



    You are so wrong.  Death, and therefore obesity is something to be celebrated.  A reduction in the human population increases the availability of resources for all of us.  I would be most content if everyone in the world, other than myself... were 600 pounds.
    BlastcatZeusAres42
  • SonofasonSonofason 378 Pts   -  
    Dee said:
    @Sonofason

    I was once asked by a fat guy why I smoked.  I told him I like to smoke...so I smoke.  He said, don't you know it's going to kill you?  And I said, "I know a lot of old smokers, but I don't know any old fat people.  So, that being said...and put aside...there is no good reason to even bring up the size of a person, any more than there is a good reason to tell a smoker he should stop smoking.

    Which is why I don’t do it mostly. Did you not read the debate topic and what it actually said?

      People will do and be what they want to do and be.  

    Yes I think we all know this and obese parents normally stuff their kids as well resulting in obese kids which is child abuse 

    So why not just leave us all alone, and keep your disapproval to yourself.  

    I am leaving you alone I couldn’t care less if you eat and smoke yourself to death if you don’t value your life why should I?

    I just bet underneath all your false bravado you wished you didn’t smoke , I bet you deny it

    Again you totally missed the point 

    If you don't want to be fat, then don't be fat.

    Which is why I’m slim , tell me how many obese people do you think adore being obese? Watch as you deflect

      But do try to keep your mouth shut about the obesity of others. 

    No I won’t when the others promote obesity as something it’s not , you’re one of the PC crowd I was talking about who scream down anyone who advocates a healthy lifestyle 

     It's actually none of your business.  And fat people really don't want to hear what you have to say about it.  And neither should they.

    It’s all of my business when such a lifestyle is promoted  as something it’s not . I don’t care that morbidly obese people do not like home truths but they are going to get them , do you suggest we should all lie to them ? Should doctors be made tell them they’re absolutely fine? That’s what you’re saying right ?

    And the girl in that photo above is HOT.

    Here is another photo of your fantasy girl so try and stay calm if you call waves of blubber and a b-utt dragging the ground hot we have different interpretations of “hot” ……looks happy doesn’t she ….LOL  


    I don’t think the see through top does much for her do you?

    Hope she doesn’t break wind or her child behind her will end up getting blown to the next neighborhood …… Hey I see the poor child is wearing a mask ……wise child can you imagine the stink if this “beauty” blows …….
    No, I can't imagine the stink.  But the hatred you are spewing reeks.
    BlastcatPlaffelvohfenZeusAres42OakTownA
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4155 Pts   -  
    @OakTownA

    255 lbs at 5’6” is a complete catastrophe. For comparison, I am 5’9”, and what I consider my optimal weight to be (and which I have consistently maintained for nearly a year) is around 150 lbs. The largest I have ever weighted was 187 lbs, and that was a result of years of fairly inactive lifestyle and complete lack of any nutritional consciousness; completely my fault, and it did not feel good at all. 200+ lbs would cause me to throw virtually everything I have at the problem, as at that point it is just a serious health hazard seriously impairing my quality of life.
    You are kidding yourself by saying that your weight is just an arbitrary number. Your organism does not lie, however. Are you feeling proud of yourself when you look at your hanging slabs of fat in the morning? Walking up the stairs and painting heavily - does that feel amazing? And overall you feel just great, with no excessive tiredness or mobility issues whatsoever, eh? If so, great, but we both know it ain’t.

    What you are doing wrong is the same as everyone who has this issue: consume too many calories and burn too few calories. It is as simple as that; you cannot avoid the laws of physics. For a system to lose mass, it must put away more energy than it takes in. I am sure that if I look in your typical pantry, I will not find much of what I consider edible items - and if I go near your house in the morning, I will not see you running with weights or doing push-ups with a large number of repetitions. Draw conclusions from this yourself.

    A more general issue you have is self-deception and rationalization of your condition. You certainly have done your homework searching for studies that support you not taking an effort to fix your condition. Only those very studies do not say what you think they do. For instance, you mentioned the commonly cited statistic that the vast majority of people who follow diets gain the lost weight back - and the conclusion you draw from this is that “diets do not work”. But that is as illogical a statement as “working hard will not make you rich”. Details matter; what diets, followed how rigorously and for how long? My diet which I have been continuously adjusting is certainly working great for me, and I am not getting any weight back. 
    Furthermore, the study you linked does state that those people did lose weight. So their diets did work, and the problem was that they did not stick with them. So it is not the diets that did not work; it is the people who did not do the necessary work.

    As far as low metabolism goes - you are a sentient being; adapt. I like a good drink, but I am a person who does not know what moderation is, so if I start drinking whenever I feel like it, things will deteriorate quickly - plus I do not like what alcohol does to my thinking process (although I find that being a little tipsy sometimes helps me in my research, as that frees up my thinking some, and I find ideas which in a regular state I would not have thought of).
    So I adapt. I set days on which I am allowed to drink and set limits on how much I can drink - and stick to that religiously. Problem solved. It is common sense that when you cannot change something, you adapt to it. You burn fewer calories passively? Eat less and exercise more. Follow your body’s needs, not your whims.

    Lastly, I at all do not condone discrimination against obese people, just like I do not condone discrimination against alcoholics or smokers. People’s bodies and health are their business and have nothing to do with me. If we meet in the real world, I will be as polite and welcoming towards you as I am towards any stranger.
    But I will never accept self-deception, because I hold everyone to a high standard and value freedom and responsibility. If you have a problem and do not work on fixing it, acknowledge it. My granddad who died to alcoholism, to his credit, never lied about his condition; he embraced it: “I drink because I have nothing else to do, and I will drink until I die”. This I can respect. I also partake in things that harm me in the long run, and I do it consciously. My 5,000+ hours worth of Starcraft 2 playing in the past certainly cost me a LOT of career and other opportunities; imagine if I spent even 20% of that time working on my skills instead… But I value leisure a lot, and this trade was acceptable to me.

    You, on the other hand, are kidding yourself, finding endless excuses why your situation is special and you certainly both cannot easily lose weight, and do not need to do it. Whatever, it is your life. Just know that you are wrong, and the payback will come, when you look back and regret your life choices. And I am saying it not out of spite, but, actually, compassion. I want everyone to be happy and prosperous, and when people engage in self-destructive behaviors while making themselves believe that they are not self-destructive or unavoidable - or both - then I will always speak openly against it. It is up to them to decide whether to hear me or not.
    ZeusAres42OakTownA
  • DeeDee 4487 Pts   -   edited November 5
    @Sonofason

    Pretty obvious tactic you use to avoid my questions 

    You are so wrong. 

    That’s not an argument it’s just you mouthing off as usual 

    Death, and therefore obesity is something to be celebrated.  

    Which is why you possibly danced with joy at the events of 9/11 right?    

    A reduction in the human population increases the availability of resources for all of us.

    “For all of us “ who value life ……you’re arguing against  your own assertions you d-ummy 

      I would be most content if everyone in the world, other than myself... were 600 pounds.

    Yet again proving how much you want to live yet say ….

    Death, and therefore obesity is something to be celebrated. “

    ZING 
    Blastcat
  • DeeDee 4487 Pts   -   edited November 5
    @Sonofason


    Pretty obvious tactic you use to avoid my questions 


    No, I can't imagine the stink. 

    Ohh ? I thought you had first hand experience as you said she was “hot” 


    But the hatred you are spewing reeks.

    How’s that hatred ? If she broke wind you’re saying the stink wouldn’t reek ? First hand experience is it buddy?
    Blastcat
  • Sonofason said:
    Right, I do have to say that reason has prevailed and I am in more agreement with the OP. I didn't even know this was a thing that is happening. Anyway, if we start to do what the OP is saying is happening we end up creating a public perception issue; we end up giving the wrong message i.e that it is ok to eat and drink whatever we want.

    Medically speaking being obese is not fine.

    Risks of obesity

    It's very important to take steps to tackle obesity because, as well as causing obvious physical changes, it can lead to a number of serious and potentially life-threatening conditions.

    These include:

    Obesity can also affect your quality of life and lead to psychological problems, such as depression and low self-esteem.

    https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/obesity/


    Complications

    People with obesity are more likely to develop a number of potentially serious health problems, including:Heart disease and strokes. Obesity makes you more likely to have high blood pressure and abnormal cholesterol levels, which are risk factors for heart disease and strokes.Type 2 diabetes. Obesity can affect the way the body uses insulin to control blood sugar levels. This raises the risk of insulin resistance and diabetes.Certain cancers. Obesity may increase the risk of cancer of the uterus, cervix, endometrium, ovary, breast, colon, rectum, esophagus, liver, gallbladder, pancreas, kidney and prostate.Digestive problems. Obesity increases the likelihood of developing heartburn, gallbladder disease and liver problems.Sleep apnea. People with obesity are more likely to have sleep apnea, a potentially serious disorder in which breathing repeatedly stops and starts during sleep.Osteoarthritis. Obesity increases the stress placed on weight-bearing joints, in addition to promoting inflammation within the body. These factors may lead to complications such as osteoarthritis.Severe COVID-19 symptoms. Obesity increases the risk of developing severe symptoms if you become infected with the virus that causes coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). People who have severe cases of COVID-19 may require treatment in intensive care units or even mechanical assistance to breathe.

    https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/obesity/symptoms-causes/syc-20375742


    Celebrating something that could lead someone to an early grave is not something that I find a kind thing to do at all. Of course, bullying is something that needs to be dealt with here as well. However, what we most certainly do not need is people thinking it's ok to do things with themselves that could lead them to an early death!



    There is nothing wrong with going to an early grave.  There is nothing wrong with dying.  There is nothing wrong with being fat.  There is something wrong with people who are critical of the appearance others.  And the health of other people is none of your business.
    With respect to the bit highlighted in Bold, I sincerely hope you don't tell this to an impressionable child as that would be almost akin to enticement to committing suicide.

    Secondly, if that individual is a close and trusted friend or family member then it is my business. Also, if I am a Doctor and that person is my patient then it is my business and it is highly unethical of me to say everything is alright when it's not, not to mention being subject to legal ramifications.

    Btw, just so we are clear my argument has nothing to do with being critical of one's appearance. I am just not going to support and condone something that puts people at potentially serious health complications.

    It's not compassionate to be critical of one's appearance but at the same time, it's also not compassionate to glorify a medical terminology that is related to serious health complications.




  • Now. one has to ask if you really do care about the health of other individuals or is it that you have more antipathy toward them and their appearance?

    Your first post started off reasonable.

    With respect to your other posts to some people here do you also seriously believe that it is helpful and responsible to make fun of people with a health condition?
    PlaffelvohfenOakTownABlastcat



  • DeeDee 4487 Pts   -  
    @ZeusAres42

    It's not compassionate to be critical of one's appearance

    My sympathy lies with the  kids of these people who mostly allow their kids to adopt the same lifestyle as themselves they obviously lack zero compassion for their own kids and the tragedy is the tyranny of the majority has everyone screeching out that any criticism is unjust  

    It’s very telling that neighbours and relatives would report those who give children drugs , cigarettes or glue to sniff yet you are called a tyrant if you call stuffing a kid to ill health an abuse …..that’s how f-ucked  up  PC bullies have made this world 
    Blastcat
  • Dee said:
    @ZeusAres42

    It's not compassionate to be critical of one's appearance

    My sympathy lies with the  kids of these people who mostly allow their kids to adopt the same lifestyle as themselves they obviously lack zero compassion for their own kids and the tragedy is the tyranny of the majority has everyone screeching out that any criticism is unjust  

    It’s very telling that neighbours and relatives would report those who give children drugs , cigarettes or glue to sniff yet you are called a tyrant if you call stuffing a kid to ill health an abuse …..that’s how f-ucked  up  PC bullies have made this world 

    @Dee the whole quote of mine was this:
    It's not compassionate to be critical of one's appearance but at the same time, it's also not compassionate to glorify a medical terminology that is related to serious health complications.

    Also, by critical I mean making fun of a person's weight and how they look, like the kind of thing you would see in high school bullying; I don't see how that is helpful either.


    Blastcat



  • DeeDee 4487 Pts   -  
    @ZeusAres42

    It's not compassionate to be critical of one's appearance but at the same time, it's also not compassionate to glorify a medical terminology that is related to serious health complications. 

    Also, by critical I mean making fun of a person's weight and how they look, like the kind of thing you would see in high school bullying; I don't see how that is helpful either. 


    Ah right got ya  sorry missed that .I agree I don’t like bullying of any kind ……I’m afraid I made a pretty crass remark earlier to another but it’s out of annoyance at a certain individual who is just ….annoying 


    Blastcat
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4155 Pts   -  
    Sonofason said:

    You are so wrong.  Death, and therefore obesity is something to be celebrated.  A reduction in the human population increases the availability of resources for all of us.  I would be most content if everyone in the world, other than myself... were 600 pounds.
    Human interaction is not a zero sum game, my friend. Someone dying does not just mean that you will have more resources at your disposal; more often than not, it means that that person will not contribute to the production of things that positively affect your well-being. If 90% of the population dies out tomorrow, then also 90% of the enterpreneurs, of workers, of scientists will die out, and what will you have then? 10 times, if not more, as much to develop any technology. 10 times, if not more, as much, to produce things alike to those you are using right now to participate in this debate.

    The bigger the population of the world, the better. By the time the population reaches the amount at which the Earth will actually start feeling crowded, the technology humanity will have created will make the problem obsolete, allowing those who do not like it here to easily and quickly move almost for free to a different star system.

    That goes for individual nations as well. I say open all borders right now and let people roam about freely. The few terrorists and freeloaders that will get their dreams fulfilled this way will be more than offset by billions workers chasing opportunities and producing awesome stuff for the money they would have never made back home.
  • DeeDee 4487 Pts   -   edited November 5
    @ZeusAres42

    Now. one has to ask if you really do care about the health of other individuals or is it that you have more antipathy toward them and their appearance?

    Fair question , I genuinely feel terribly sad and helpless when I see beautiful kids who are obese and the suffering they must go through , I’m enraged when I see the shrug the shoulder attitude of the parents as they play the victim card at any criticisms brokered regards their lifestyle 

    My two nephews are these kids whose parents are stuffing their kids  to death and it’s tragic 

    My earlier remark was nasty as I reacted to that particular most annoying sonofa b , but no I don’t have antipathy for them 

    Your first post started off reasonable.

    With respect to your other posts to some people here do you also seriously believe that it is helpful and responsible to make fun of people with a health condition? 

    I don’t to be honest 
    piloteerBlastcatZeusAres42
  • OakTownAOakTownA 93 Pts   -  
    255 lbs at 5’6” is a complete catastrophe. For comparison, I am 5’9”, and what I consider my optimal weight to be (and which I have consistently maintained for nearly a year) is around 150 lbs. The largest I have ever weighted was 187 lbs, and that was a result of years of fairly inactive lifestyle and complete lack of any nutritional consciousness; completely my fault, and it did not feel good at all. 200+ lbs would cause me to throw virtually everything I have at the problem, as at that point it is just a serious health hazard seriously impairing my quality of life.
    You are kidding yourself by saying that your weight is just an arbitrary number. Your organism does not lie, however. Are you feeling proud of yourself when you look at your hanging slabs of fat in the morning? Walking up the stairs and painting heavily - does that feel amazing? And overall you feel just great, with no excessive tiredness or mobility issues whatsoever, eh? If so, great, but we both know it ain’t.

    You know jack all about my life, so here are some fun tidbits. My cholesterol, blood pressure, and resting hear rate (you know, actual indicators of a person's heart health) are on the low end of normal. I live on the third floor of a walk up, so have no difficulty climbing three flights without becoming winded. As for excessive tiredness or mobility issues, I have fibromyalgia, so I am exhausted 24/7, and there are days when my leg pain is strong enough that I need to use my cane. BECAUSE I have fibro, it is extremely important to my well being that I exercise at least every other day for a minimum of 20 minutes (I aim for 30-45). When I don't do this, my baseline pain levels increase. Do you feel good about yourself that you judge a random stranger, and express absolute hatred for them? I've been heavy since puberty. The only times my weight was what you would consider acceptable was when I had an eating disorder, and routinely starved myself.

    What you are doing wrong is the same as everyone who has this issue: consume too many calories and burn too few calories. It is as simple as that; you cannot avoid the laws of physics. For a system to lose mass, it must put away more energy than it takes in. I am sure that if I look in your typical pantry, I will not find much of what I consider edible items - and if I go near your house in the morning, I will not see you running with weights or doing push-ups with a large number of repetitions. Draw conclusions from this yourself.

    I'm vegan, so I have no idea if you would find the contents of my pantry and fridge edible. How do you feel about fresh fruits and vegetables, beans, and whole grains? You're right; if you stop by my apartment building in the mornings, you won't see me working out. I prefer to work out in the evenings, and, pre-COVID, prefer working out in a pool. Now I work out in my building's basement, so you still wouldn't see anything. Once again, you are assuming things based on two data points; my weight and my height. If I were 5'6" and 135lbs, would you assume I was healthy and/or partake in healthy activities?

    A more general issue you have is self-deception and rationalization of your condition. You certainly have done your homework searching for studies that support you not taking an effort to fix your condition.

    You mean the more current scientific studies that contradict your beliefs?

    Only those very studies do not say what you think they do. For instance, you mentioned the commonly cited statistic that the vast majority of people who follow diets gain the lost weight back - and the conclusion you draw from this is that “diets do not work”. But that is as illogical a statement as “working hard will not make you rich”. Details matter; what diets, followed how rigorously and for how long? My diet which I have been continuously adjusting is certainly working great for me, and I am not getting any weight back. 

    I've worked hard all of my working life, starting with babysitting around 10. I'm not rich, and will likely never be, as my chosen line of work does not pay as well as others. If your current diet works for you, and is healthy for your body and mind, great! Keep doing it. I've been vegan for over 10 years, and see no likelihood of that changing, as I find animal products, especially meat, disgusting.

    As far as low metabolism goes - you are a sentient being; adapt. I like a good drink, but I am a person who does not know what moderation is, so if I start drinking whenever I feel like it, things will deteriorate quickly - plus I do not like what alcohol does to my thinking process (although I find that being a little tipsy sometimes helps me in my research, as that frees up my thinking some, and I find ideas which in a regular state I would not have thought of).
    So I adapt. I set days on which I am allowed to drink and set limits on how much I can drink - and stick to that religiously. Problem solved. It is common sense that when you cannot change something, you adapt to it. You burn fewer calories passively? Eat less and exercise more. Follow your body’s needs, not your whims.

    If I only ate when I was hungry, I wouldn't eat. Is that healthy? I tend to eat two small meals a day and a sensible snack. The last time I kept a food diary for my doctor (we were trying to determine if I had any obvious food triggers for my fibro, migraines, and IBS), she was stunned that I routinely eat around 1,200 calories a day or less. One of my major food triggers is refined sugar, so like you and alcohol, I am very careful about my sugar intake. If I do not follow my body's needs, due to my chronic health concerns, I pay for it. Once again, you know nothing about me or my life except my height and weight, and yet you assume I treat my body like crap, when the exact opposite is true. You may want to examine your prejudice against fat people.

    Lastly, I at all do not condone discrimination against obese people, just like I do not condone discrimination against alcoholics or smokers. People’s bodies and health are their business and have nothing to do with me. If we meet in the real world, I will be as polite and welcoming towards you as I am towards any stranger.
    But I will never accept self-deception...

    I'm going to rephrase this so you can see how it is prejudiced thinking. "Lastly, I at all do not condone discrimination against obese people, just like I do not condone discrimination against alcoholics or smokers. People's private lives are their business and have nothing to do with me. If we meet in the real world, I will be as polite and welcoming towards you as I am towards any stranger. But I will never accept self-deception that gay people are not abnormal and unhealthy." Once, again, just as not all thin people are healthy because of their weight, not all fat/obese people are unhealthy because of their weight.

     If you have a problem and do not work on fixing it, acknowledge it. My granddad who died to alcoholism, to his credit, never lied about his condition; he embraced it: “I drink because I have nothing else to do, and I will drink until I die”. This I can respect. I also partake in things that harm me in the long run, and I do it consciously. My 5,000+ hours worth of Starcraft 2 playing in the past certainly cost me a LOT of career and other opportunities; imagine if I spent even 20% of that time working on my skills instead… But I value leisure a lot, and this trade was acceptable to me.

    YOU have a problem with my weight; I do not, and neither does my doctor. I'm going to trust my doctor when it comes to my health rather than a stranger on the internet. I don't lie about my weight, nor do I lie about my chronic health conditions, NONE of which are caused by my weight.

    You, on the other hand, are kidding yourself, finding endless excuses why your situation is special and you certainly both cannot easily lose weight, and do not need to do it. Whatever, it is your life. Just know that you are wrong, and the payback will come, when you look back and regret your life choices. And I am saying it not out of spite, but, actually, compassion. I want everyone to be happy and prosperous, and when people engage in self-destructive behaviors while making themselves believe that they are not self-destructive or unavoidable - or both - then I will always speak openly against it. It is up to them to decide whether to hear me or not.

    So scientific research finding that a better indicator of over all health is what you eat and how much you exercise is me "kidding myself" and finding "endless excuses?" I don't care if I gain or lose weight. As for "need to lose weight," I'll let my doctor determine when or if my weight is causing negative health outcomes. If this is your idea of compassion, I feel sorry for you. You say you want everyone to be "happy and prosperous," but say I'm in denial when I say that I am quite happy with my life currently, and am prosperous (not necessarily with money, but with fantastic friends and family). Why do you get to decide what happiness and prosperity looks like for me? I would NEVER look at a person, and decide their life must be terrible and they must be miserable based on their appearance. You can't say the same thing.  Again, what behaviors do I engage in that are self-destructive? Why do you assume all fat people engage in destructive behaviors while thin people don't engage in those same behaviors? My point is that you can tell NOTHING about a person's life solely based on their appearance. If you want to speak out against destructive behaviors, that's great, but you may want to make sure that the behavior you think is destructive is actually happening. Are there fat people who overeat nothing but junk food and never exercise, yes, but there are thin people who do this, too.





    Plaffelvohfen
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4155 Pts   -  
    @OakTownA

    I, indeed, do not know much about your life - but I do know that 255 lbs at the 5'6" height, regardless of anything else, is unhealthy. You can make any claims you want about your health state here on the Internet, but anatomy is what it is, and you are not an exemption from the laws of nature.

    Really? You are a vegan and eat "two small meals a day" and exercise regularly (and have done that for years), and you still weight 255 lbs? Then you probably want to apply for the Nobel Prize in physics, as you apparently have broken multiple laws of physics known to the scientific community, and your condition is going to be a huge revelation and will force all of us physicists to reconsider our most fundamental paradigms such as the energy conservation law.
    More likely, you are just telling stories here that have nothing to do with reality. This is what anorexic people are known to do all the time as well, making the opposite claims - about how much they eat every day and how little they exercise - yet still being strongly underweight. All of you guys break the basic laws of physics, but no single one of you ever has the ability to demonstrate it scientifically... curious.

    I do not have a problem with anything about you; you do you. But this is a debate website, and you are making claims that are patently false, so I am saying that they are false. The only way your weight is ever going to bother me is if I happen to be in a Greyhound bus sitting next to you - but I never use public transportation and prefer driving my car instead these days, so it is an unlikely possibility.

    You completely misunderstood the point of my post. I am not saying that you "need to lose weight". I am saying that you should not lie to yourself and be blatantly clear about your situation. If you think that the benefits you get from treating your body poorly outweigh the negatives of it, then great! If you have thought it through and made a rational decision, then all is cool. The problem is, you are not demonstrating it in your rhetoric; rather, it seems like you have convinced yourself that you do not have a problem when, in fact, you do. That is wrong.
    If I am somehow wrong about your situation and you actually are perfectly healthy and everything in your life is great, then good for you. But, as a physicist, I know it not to be the case. No one with 255 lbs at the 5'6" height is "healthy", and if you think that you are, then you are kidding yourself.

    Then, again, your standard of healthiness may just be low. Personally, if I cannot run up a steep hill for more than 10 minutes straight, I consider myself to be in a bad shape. Most people cannot do that at any point throughout their lives, and many of them think that they are doing just fine. It is up to you to decide just how healthy you want to be and what sacrifices you are willing to make in order to achieve it.
    The defensiveness with which you responded to my calm and rational comment tells me that things are not nearly as great in your kingdom as you claim, however. Notice how I do not defend myself against your criticisms; I have no need to, for I know that I am healthy and happy, and I demonstrate it to myself every day. Nothing that you can say will make me doubt that this is the case. If the reverse is true, then I am happy for you - but I know for a fact that it is not.

    Lastly, I have never said that "thin people do not engage in destructive behaviors". People of all kinds engage in them, obviously. That does not change the fact that obesity is a result of self-destructive behaviors. The fact that thin people partake in those too should not matter to you; your personal health should matter to you more than anything anyone else ever does. Who cares what other people do? Other people are not the ones who have to carry your heavy body around every day.
    Dee
  • piloteerpiloteer 1442 Pts   -  
    Swolliw said:
    @Dee
    Fatties are among the ugliest people on the planet. They are a bit like religious nutters who simply can’t and won’t be told that they are undesirable misfits of society.
    Just as we should restrict religious practices we should not allow fatties on aircraft for example. Even if they were made to buy three seats, they are a safety risk to other passengers. They could still travel overseas on a cargo ship and be lifted on and off by crane.
    I hate how much I love this comment! 
  • DeeDee 4487 Pts   -   edited November 5
    @OakTownA

    You state …..

    I tend to eat two small meals a day and a sensible snack and you also state …..I weigh 255 lbs at 5’6” 


    How is this even possible if you’re vegan and your intake is 1,000 to 1,200 calories a day regardless of how much exercise you do how come you weigh 255 lbs? 

    What’s the medical name for that condition  you never said ? Also your Dr is telling you a lie if he claims that’s a healthy weight as Fibromyalgia hurts more when you're overweight 

    Blastcat
  • BlastcatBlastcat 362 Pts   -   edited November 5
    Argument Topic: The argument from "how is it even possible?" fallacy

    Dee said:
    @OakTownA

    You state …..

    I tend to eat two small meals a day and a sensible snack and you also state …..I weigh 255 lbs at 5’6”

    How is this even possible if you’re vegan and your intake is 1,000 to 1,200 calories a day regardless of how much exercise you do how come you weigh 255 lbs?

    1. Dee wonders how something is even possible as a way to discredit what OakTownA has said. He wonders how it's even POSSIBLE, as if Oak was talking about time travel or fairies in the back yard. People gain weight for a lot of reasons.
    2. Just because Dee thinks that something is impossible does not demonstrate that it is. So, the premise that it's not even possible is completely fallacious. We do not get to the truth from our personal incredulity.

    3. Therefore, Dee asks a rhetorical question that doesn't EVEN come close to an objection. His fallacy is called argument from personal incredulity.. " how is that even possible " fallaciously undermines the credibility of his honourable opponent instead of addressing the ideas presented.
    OakTownA
  • OakTownAOakTownA 93 Pts   -  
    I have no problem disclosing my current diagnoses: Hypothyroidism, fibromyalgia with chronic fatigue, IBS, GERDS and asthma. My doctor is female, and after seeing my blood work, she is not worried about my weight. I've been in chronic pain since I was about 15. My weight has also fluctuated greatly from then to now. Even having gained over 100 lbs since I was 15, my base pain level has generally remained the same. My doctor does not claim that my weight is healthy; weight is a number not a determination of health, and she treats it as such. The point I am trying to make, which seems to be ignored right and left, is that you CANNOT determine who is health or unhealthy based on their weight. End of story.
    Dee
  • DeeDee 4487 Pts   -  
    @Blastcat


    Argument Topic: The argument from "how is it even possible?" fallacy

    Thats not a fallacy Dumbo it’s a question 


    1. Dee wonders how something is even possible as a way to discredit what OakTownA has said. He wonders how it's even POSSIBLE, as if Oak was talking about time travel or fairies in the back yard. 


    Again I’m not trying ti discredit him I asked him a question seeing as your his agent can you answer my question without trying to kiss his a-ss ?

    People gain weight for a lot of reasons.

    Thank you captain obvious so tell   us all how a vegan who eats 1000 , to 1,200 calories a day becomes obese I will wait?


    2. Just because Dee thinks that something is impossible does not demonstrate that it is. 

    Ok explain it then ? 

    So, the premise that it's not even possible is completely fallacious. We do not get to the truth from our personal incredulity. 

    We get to the truth by asking questions a process you detest and want to ban as you find questioning ones  claims terribly unfair 


    3. Therefore, Dee asks a rhetorical question that doesn't EVEN come close to an objection. 

    It’s a question asking for clarification so your strawman fails 

    His fallacy is called argument from personal incredulity.. " how is that even possible " fallaciously undermines the credibility of his honourable opponent instead of addressing the ideas presented.

    I addressed the idea you’re just to st-upid to see it such is your continuous vendetta and stalking of me 

    So du-mbo you have the inside track  it seems so explain to us all how it’s possible ……watch …..silence from the stalker as he cannot answer 
  • DeeDee 4487 Pts   -  
    @OakTownA

    Right thanks for sharing I was totally baffled as to how with all your sacrifices and efforts that your weight hasn’t plummeted this clears it up , I wish you continued health and I hope happiness as you bravely face your challenges 


  • OakTownAOakTownA 93 Pts   -  
    I, indeed, do not know much about your life - but I do know that 255 lbs at the 5'6" height, regardless of anything else, is unhealthy. You can make any claims you want about your health state here on the Internet, but anatomy is what it is, and you are not an exemption from the laws of nature.

    And your proof for this assertion is? To which law of nature are you referring? HOW am I unhealthy?

    Really? You are a vegan and eat "two small meals a day" and exercise regularly (and have done that for years), and you still weight 255 lbs? Then you probably want to apply for the Nobel Prize in physics, as you apparently have broken multiple laws of physics known to the scientific community, and your condition is going to be a huge revelation and will force all of us physicists to reconsider our most fundamental paradigms such as the energy conservation law.
    More likely, you are just telling stories here that have nothing to do with reality. This is what anorexic people are known to do all the time as well, making the opposite claims - about how much they eat every day and how little they exercise - yet still being strongly underweight. All of you guys break the basic laws of physics, but no single one of you ever has the ability to demonstrate it scientifically... curious.

    Yup. Fat vegans and fat people who work out exist. I'm one of them. What laws of physics have I broken? Once again, all you have is my height and weight, and since my behaviors don't match your expectation, I'm the one who is delusional or lying.


    I do not have a problem with anything about you; you do you. But this is a debate website, and you are making claims that are patently false, so I am saying that they are false.

    Yes, this is a debate site, so I would expect your arguments to be backed with evidence. You have presented none. You previously accused me of making an emotional argument, yet I'm the one posting evidence that supports my claims.

    You completely misunderstood the point of my post. I am not saying that you "need to lose weight". I am saying that you should not lie to yourself and be blatantly clear about your situation. If you think that the benefits you get from treating your body poorly outweigh the negatives of it, then great! If you have thought it through and made a rational decision, then all is cool. The problem is, you are not demonstrating it in your rhetoric; rather, it seems like you have convinced yourself that you do not have a problem when, in fact, you do. That is wrong.
    If I am somehow wrong about your situation and you actually are perfectly healthy and everything in your life is great, then good for you. But, as a physicist, I know it not to be the case. No one with 255 lbs at the 5'6" height is "healthy", and if you think that you are, then you are kidding yourself.

    Nothing that you can say will make me doubt that this is the case. If the reverse is true, then I am happy for you - but I know for a fact that it is not.

    I stopped lying to myself when I realized that my weight does not determine my worth. I am waiting for your evidence that I "treat my body poorly." Once again, I do not over eat, try to eat healthily, and exercise regularly. That you are unable to accept that there are fat people like me who also eat a healthy diet and exercise is on you, not me. No, YOU have decided my weight is unhealthy. I'm still waiting for your evidence. You are a physicist, not a medical doctor. I'll go with my doctor's assessment of my overall health over your uneducated opinion. I've never said that I'm 100% healthy. I'm not; I have several chronic illnesses, none of which are caused by my weight. And, as I said before, one of the best ways to control my fibromyalgia pain is through exercise. That you automatically dismiss my lived experiences, and ignore the studies I posted because you "know it not to be the case," and "noting that you can say will make me doubt that this is the case" is troubling. You sound like a fundamentalist that "knows the Bible is literally true" denying evolution.

    Lastly, I have never said that "thin people do not engage in destructive behaviors". People of all kinds engage in them, obviously. That does not change the fact that obesity is a result of self-destructive behaviors. The fact that thin people partake in those too should not matter to you; your personal health should matter to you more than anything anyone else ever does. Who cares what other people do? Other people are not the ones who have to carry your heavy body around every day.

    I never accused you of saying that "thin people do not engage in destructive behaviors." You assume that thin people do not engage in the harmful behaviors of over eating and not exercising. Obesity has multiple factors including genetics, what type of fat you have, hormonal balances or imbalances, and socioeconomic.

    There's even a virus that can increase your likelihood of becoming obese.

    Our knowledge changes and adapts as we receive more information. More and more research is showing that the best measure of longevity is exercise and eating habits, not weight.




  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4155 Pts   -   edited November 6
    @OakTownA

    The laws are called the "energy conservation law" and the "momentum conservation law". They suggest that if someone has 60% over my weight while having lower height, they have some serious issues with energy balance and mobility. Medical science further suggests that they have deeper issues, ones that are not suddenly gone if they found a nice doctor who violates the Hippocratic oath by telling their patients that they do not have a problem when they do.

    I do not know what "worth" means; your value to yourself should be absolute, infinite. Of course nothing determines your "worth". Your weight does affect your quality of life significantly, however. How much you care about it is up to you to decide. But deciding not to care about it does not free you from the consequences of your condition.

    I am indeed a fundamentalist, in the sense that I believe that this world has certain fundamental (and derivable) laws that cannot be broken by one's brainwork. That is in contrast with the postmodernist school of thought that states that, in fact, such laws do not exist and are merely a social construct and a product of human power games, which is the other popular school of thought - a ridiculous one, in my view.

    Thin people absolutely engage in the harmful behaviors of overeating and not exercising; I have never said or implied otherwise. It is, however, a fact that all anorexic people experience insufficient calorie intake, and that all obese people experience excessive calorie intake. Where do you think obese people's body mass comes from, it is teleported into them cosmically somehow?

    Weight is just a number, you are correct about it. Age is also just a number, but it is a meaningful number. You do not want to see a 2 year old drive a car on a highway, nor do you want to see a 120 year old drive a car on a highway.
    When you weight 255 lbs with the 5'9" height, you have a serious weight problem. It does not mean that everyone with exactly these numbers has the exact same degree of problem; obviously, a boxer gaining this might weight intentionally in order to compete in a heavyweight boxing match against an equally heavy opponent has a very different health situation than a lazy jobless guy munching on chips all day long. Even that boxer, however, only does this specifically for his career goals; it is not a healthy way to be.
    Weight is not a problem in itself, but it is an indication of other problems. If you do not think that weight matters at all, then would you be fine with weighting, say, 1 ton? Or, maybe, 5 lbs? There are extremes that are bad no matter what, and there is a midrange where, indeed, things are much more individual. A 5'9" person weighting 140 lbs may be underweight, overweight or neither, depending on their actual complexion; a 5'9" person weighting 255 lbs is unhealthily obese no matter how you look at it.

    You do not need to justify your weight before me. If your weight works well for you, then fine. But do not tell me that you are somehow a special case and that basic laws of the Universe do not apply to you. That you can eat 1,200 calories a day consistently and weight 255 lbs is a ridiculous claim, unless you are a reptile and get extra energy from the sun or something.

    If you like references so much, here are some graphs that are widely accepted in the medical community (the sample sizes are fairly small, but large enough for the numbers to be representative):
    https://fitfolk.com/average-calories-burned-per-day-men-women/
    You can see that no men burn significantly below 1800 calories, and less than 1% of women burn below 1200. With even very minor exercise, add several hundred to these numbers. You can see that if you really weight 255 lbs (which is on the higher end of the spectrum) and exercise, and yet burn in total less than 1200 calories per day, then you are a freak of nature unknown to science. Which is not a complete impossibility, but, given how common claims of this kind among people with remediable health issue are, I remain highly skeptical.
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1297 Pts   -  
    @piloteer
    I hate how much I love this comment! 

    Me too, it is a bit over the top which is far from my usual style of gilding the lily.

    I wanted to send a message to the fatty denialists who try and promote that it is somehow okay to be an ugly porky.

    It's a bit like religion really where followers are so obstinate and deluded that the only way to get a message across is to whack them good and hard with a sledgehammer.

    Blastcat
  • DeeDee 4487 Pts   -  
    @OakTownA

    I did some further research as I was still puzzled after my last post it seems several medical experts say Hypothyroidism is perfectly treatable and the advice seems to be eat less and go for healthy options which you are doing, indeed you go above and beyond  this way as you claim your intake is 1,000 to 1,200 calories a day  , so again I’m afraid there is something missing how is it even possible to weigh 255 lbs with this regime something is missing here ?
    Blastcat
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1297 Pts   -  
    @Dee
    something is missing here ?

    Precisely....the something missing is the admission of being a stranger to the truth.

    It is a common claim of fatties to blame their condition on metabolism or overactive glands. 

    I suppose those glands go down to KFC every day and shovel double cheeseburgers and fizzy drinks down the "victim's" throat in between do they? No sirree, it's the "victim's" hands and elbows that are overactive.

    BlastcatOakTownA
  • DeeDee 4487 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw

    That made me laugh out loud 
    Blastcat
  • DeeDee 4487 Pts   -  
    @OakTownA

    I think your silence clearly demonstrates that you have no adequate response to  my latest question ....
    Blastcat
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1297 Pts   -  
    @Dee
    I think your silence clearly demonstrates that you have no adequate response to  my latest question ....

    I think it also demonstrates that he has finally admitted to himself that his hormones don't mysteriously grab globules of fat from mid air and ingest them. Your question also no doubt prompted him to look at his bank statement to realise the number of times each day he sneaks out to KFC and Dippy Dogs.

    DeeBlastcat
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