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Will Creationists Accept the Challenge?

Debate Information

As an atheist, being soundly rational, rationally sound and neutral over religion hear the frequent whimpers of theists......"Prove that God does not exist".

So, I am holding out an olive branch on a level playing field to theists and creationists to rise to the following fair challenge:

Prove that evolution does not exist.
OakTownA



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  • OakTownAOakTownA 104 Pts   -  
    Good luck with that! I'm still waiting for a definition of "kind."
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1328 Pts   -  
    @OakTownA
    Good luck with that! I'm still waiting for a definition of "kind."

    I presume you mean "kind" as in "alternative to species" as creationists try to spin. Their ridiculous strawman argument about species and/or kinds not inter-breeding has been long since overturned anyway. There is physical evidence that Neanderthal and Denisovans inter-bred some 55,000 years ago.



    OakTownA
  • OakTownAOakTownA 104 Pts   -  
    Exactly. According to 23 and Me, I have around 3% Neanderthal DNA.
  • BarnardotBarnardot 63 Pts   -  
    So is that you in the photo lol @OakTownA
  • OakTownAOakTownA 104 Pts   -  
    Nah, just two of my better looking cousins. LOL
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1328 Pts   -   edited January 15
    @OakTownA
    Nah, just two of my better looking cousins. LOL

    Which raises a very valid point in that evolution is a very precarious process in that it will sometimes take ten steps back in order to move one step forward. In this case we can see that evolution hasn't quite perfected the mating process. Nor has evolution quite perfected the quality of water flowing through the Ozarks which obviously makes the kin folk down there attracted to each other.

  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 235 Pts   -  
    Religion Has No Earthly Purpose, So Why Do We Cling to It? | Reza Aslan | Big Think - YouTube

    Do any here think in the substance dualistic way, and if your physical has evolved over time, what has you soul/spirit side been doing, and is your spiritual side not what you would name as your highest ideal in spirit which is God, to you. 

    I say to you, because it is a Royal You I address.

    ------

    Modern Gnostic Christians name our god "I am", and yes, we do mean ourselves.

    You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I.

    The name "I Am" you might see as meaning something like, --- I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation and “I am”, represents the best rules and laws that we have found to live by.

    In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.

    That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.

    Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

    Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
       
    John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

    Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.  

    Alan Watts - On The Book of Eli - YouTube

    Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link. 

    On Becoming an Adult - YouTube


    The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

    Regards
    DL

     


  • SwolliwSwolliw 1328 Pts   -  
    @GnosticChristian
    In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.

    And, how many times have you been informed that all Christians say the same thing, namely that theirs is the best way. I realise that you did not directly say that here but don't all Christians claim "brethren" to Jesus?

  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 235 Pts   -  
    @Swolliw

    Brethren to Jesus means picking up our crosses and following him.

    Most Christians plan to ride Jesus as their scapegoat and let him carry their load.

    What would you do to/with your brethren to show love; follow them or abuse them?

    Regards
    DL

  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4244 Pts   -  
    @GnosticChristian

    Why pick up any cross at all? This is such a strange notion in Christianity, even in the gnostic one: that life should somehow be about bearing some suffering for the sake of salvation or whatever else. Why cannot life just be about having a good time? Something all religions that I know frown upon strongly.

    Where are all the religions that promote happiness and cheerfulness? It is always somehow about doom and gloom.
    GnosticChristian
  • SonofasonSonofason 389 Pts   -   edited January 16
    Swolliw said:
    @OakTownA
    Good luck with that! I'm still waiting for a definition of "kind."

    I presume you mean "kind" as in "alternative to species" as creationists try to spin. Their ridiculous strawman argument about species and/or kinds not inter-breeding has been long since overturned anyway. There is physical evidence that Neanderthal and Denisovans inter-bred some 55,000 years ago.



    If Neanderthal and Denisovans interbred, then they were the same species.  The fact that you want to call them different species is your mistake.
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1328 Pts   -  
    @Sonofason
    If Neanderthal and Denisovans interbred, then they were the same species.  The fact that you want to call them different species is your mistake.

    You have no idea at all what it is like to experience evolution. You have to be a realist like me to accept Darwin into your life and have a relationship with the one true progenitor as to the origin of our species. And it is only through Richard Dawkins that one can ever hope to attain such true salvation.

  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 235 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar said:
    @GnosticChristian

    Why pick up any cross at all? This is such a strange notion in Christianity, even in the gnostic one: that life should somehow be about bearing some suffering for the sake of salvation or whatever else. Why cannot life just be about having a good time? Something all religions that I know frown upon strongly.

    Where are all the religions that promote happiness and cheerfulness? It is always somehow about doom and gloom.
    To pick up ones cross, is just accepting the burdens of life, and defeating them, so that the happiness you speak of can be had.

    Part of that burden is learning/schooling and thinking in a moral way.

    Doom and gloom. No.

    Think more dualistically, carrot or stick, --- as what is good for the in group and what is bad for those who do not work hard enough to get into the in group.

    It just happens that the people will pay more if they are afraid of the Christian boogie man.

    Regards
    DL


  • SonofasonSonofason 389 Pts   -  
    Swolliw said:
    @Sonofason
    If Neanderthal and Denisovans interbred, then they were the same species.  The fact that you want to call them different species is your mistake.

    You have no idea at all what it is like to experience evolution. You have to be a realist like me to accept Darwin into your life and have a relationship with the one true progenitor as to the origin of our species. And it is only through Richard Dawkins that one can ever hope to attain such true salvation.

    You may not know this, but if two individuals are capable of mating and producing viable, fertile offspring, they are in fact the same species.
    Swolliw
  • SwolliwSwolliw 1328 Pts   -  
    @Sonofason
    You may not know this, but if two individuals are capable of mating and producing viable, fertile offspring, they are in fact the same species.

    You mean I don't know this because the fact is that different species interbreed as I have so mentioned...look it up...you are totally wrong. All creationists are wrong. Unless you are going to play with the word "they"/

  • SonofasonSonofason 389 Pts   -  
    Swolliw said:
    @Sonofason
    You may not know this, but if two individuals are capable of mating and producing viable, fertile offspring, they are in fact the same species.

    You mean I don't know this because the fact is that different species interbreed as I have so mentioned...look it up...you are totally wrong. All creationists are wrong. Unless you are going to play with the word "they"/


    Please see below copied and pasted from (https://courses.lumenlearning.com/boundless-biology/chapter/formation-of-new-species/)

    Explain the biological species concept

    KEY TAKEAWAYS

    Key Points

    • Members of the same species are similar both in their external appearance and their internal physiology; the closer the relationship between two organisms, the more similar they will be in these features.
    • Some species can look very dissimilar, such as two very different breeds of dogs, but can still mate and produce viable offspring, which signifies that they belong to the same species.
    • Some species may look very similar externally, but can be dissimilar enough in their genetic makeup that they cannot produce viable offspring and are, therefore, different species.
    • Mutations can occur in any cell of the body, but if a change does not occur in a sperm or egg cell, it cannot be passed on to the organism’s offspring.

    Key Terms

    • species: a group of organsms that, in nature, are capable of mating and producing viable, fertile offspring
  • SonofasonSonofason 389 Pts   -  
    You may not have noticed, but I am never wrong.
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4244 Pts   -   edited January 17
    GnosticChristian said:

    To pick up ones cross, is just accepting the burdens of life, and defeating them, so that the happiness you speak of can be had.

    Part of that burden is learning/schooling and thinking in a moral way.

    Doom and gloom. No.

    Think more dualistically, carrot or stick, --- as what is good for the in group and what is bad for those who do not work hard enough to get into the in group.

    It just happens that the people will pay more if they are afraid of the Christian boogie man.

    Regards
    DL


    I understand; it is just a strange way to formulate it. This seems to be common for virtually all ideologies, even non-religious ones, that I have encountered: they all start with the premise that life is hard, brutish and full of suffering, and that the only way to mitigate these is to make serious sacrifices. Even the more positive ideologies, such as stoicism, objectivism or epicureanism, while glorifying happiness, see the pathway to is as full of suffering and abstinence.

    It would be nice to have an ideology, even if religious, for a change that starts with a fundamentally different premise: that life is awesome, that happiness is quite easily achievable (it is), and that there are specific ways to make it even more awesome and full of happiness. And, instead of a guy dying on a cross, that has this kind of characteristic image instead:


  • GnosticChristianGnosticChristian 235 Pts   -  
    MayCaesar said:
    GnosticChristian said:

    To pick up ones cross, is just accepting the burdens of life, and defeating them, so that the happiness you speak of can be had.

    Part of that burden is learning/schooling and thinking in a moral way.

    Doom and gloom. No.

    Think more dualistically, carrot or stick, --- as what is good for the in group and what is bad for those who do not work hard enough to get into the in group.

    It just happens that the people will pay more if they are afraid of the Christian boogie man.

    Regards
    DL


    I understand; it is just a strange way to formulate it. This seems to be common for virtually all ideologies, even non-religious ones, that I have encountered: they all start with the premise that life is hard, brutish and full of suffering, and that the only way to mitigate these is to make serious sacrifices. Even the more positive ideologies, such as stoicism, objectivism or epicureanism, while glorifying happiness, see the pathway to is as full of suffering and abstinence.

    It would be nice to have an ideology, even if religious, for a change that starts with a fundamentally different premise: that life is awesome, that happiness is quite easily achievable (it is), and that there are specific ways to make it even more awesome and full of happiness. And, instead of a guy dying on a cross, that has this kind of characteristic image instead:

    ==============
    Hi MayCeasar

    Most religions say they are there to fix things with truth and that truth begins with us thinking we are lowly evil people.

    What you seek, a higher true without lies, I have found in Gnostic Christianity.

    The thing about what you want in a theology, is that the religious com men have found more profit in raising the low thinkers and gullible. The high thinkers and intelligent know they are liars.

    Christianity began as a good naturalist religion that was ruined by supernatural and immoral beliefs. The liars took over.

    Nature, and Christianity bible, if you read it like a Gnostic Christian, holds all the answers.

    Gnostic Christian see evolving perfection in all things. I takes time and thinking to get there.

    Are you up for a mental exercise buddy?

    This Gnostic Christian, given that I am a perpetual seekers, and not idol worshipers, always am.

    -----------

    The Gnostic Christian reality.

    Gnostic Christian Jesus said,  "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.

    [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

    "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

    If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

    Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

    [Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

    But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

    As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

    Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

    Candide.

    "It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

     That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

    Regards

    DL








  • SwolliwSwolliw 1328 Pts   -  
    @Sonofason
    ".......artificially intervene and fertilize the egg of a bald eagle with the sperm of an African fish....." is an example of two different species not inter-breeding, so what and when was that great piece of enlightening, up-to-the-minute lesson published, let alone researched?.....1960 maybe?  Neanderthal and Denisovans were two different species and there is evidence from discoveries made in 2018 that they inter-bred:
    https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.201229
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-06004-0/

    But even then so what?......creationists use the no inter-breeding of species as a strawman to detract from the real argument of evolution of the species and, if I were to be cynical, a vain excuse to shoo away creationists' nutty belief that each and every animal that we have was somehow modelled on a lump of clay by some mysterious being.

    So, even without inter-breeding of species we know that lateral development of species not only took place but still take place to the tune of 15,000 new species each year. Now, are evolutions going to say that this mysterious being pops out from behind a tree 15,000 times each year with a piece of clay and knocks out a couple of a new species...he's pretty smart, knowing that incest is the way to go since he somehow thinks his new species won't mate with another, don't you reckon?

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