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Should the police system be reformed?

Debate Information

I was wondering if you think the police system should be reformed. I don't think it should be dismantled.



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    Arguments


  • DreamerDreamer 61 Pts   -   edited January 1
    Argument Topic: Defund the police.

    We should defund the police.


    Police in the United States came from slave patrols that captured and returned run away enslaved people. Therefore, the police come from a system of chattel slavery. Often, being used to break up labor unions. The court system is so overwhelmed that it relies upon plea bargaining in the vast majority of cases.

    "Innocence Is Irrelevant

    This is the age of the plea bargain—and millions of Americans are suffering the consequences.



    jackjust_sayinOakTownA
  • jackjack 135 Pts   -   edited January 1
    theinfectedmaster said:

    Should the police system be reformed?

    Hello the:

    Yes.  We need to get rid of:

    1.  Qualified immunity
         a)  Holds the police accountable

    2.  Police unions
         b)  Holds the police doubly accountable

    3.  Cash bail
         c)  Put poor people into the system where they'll NEVER escape

    4.  Civil asset forfeiture
         d)  Legal theft, plain and simple

    5.  Mandatory sentences
         e)  Takes sentencing AWAY from prosecutors, and puts it BACK into the hands of judges

    6.  The drug war
         f)  Simply, Jim Crow at its finest.

    excon

    DreamerOakTownA
  • JulesKorngoldJulesKorngold 440 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Improving

    There are many ways to improve the police system without defunding, and different approaches may be appropriate depending on the specific issues and needs of a particular community. Here are a few potential ideas:

    1. Increase training and education: Police officers should receive ongoing training on a wide range of topics, including de-escalation techniques, cultural competency, and bias awareness. This can help officers respond more effectively to different situations and better serve the diverse communities they work in.

    2. Implement community policing: This approach involves establishing closer ties between police and the communities they serve, with the goal of building trust and cooperation. This can be achieved through activities such as foot patrols, community meetings, and problem-solving partnerships.

    3. Increase transparency and accountability: Making police departments more transparent and accountable can help build trust and confidence in law enforcement. This can be achieved through measures such as body cameras, independent oversight, and open data policies.

    4. Diversify the police force: A police force that reflects the diversity of the community it serves can help improve relationships and trust. This includes hiring officers from diverse backgrounds, as well as providing ongoing training and support to help them better understand and serve the community.

    5. Address systemic issues: It is important to recognize that many of the issues facing the police system are part of broader systemic problems, such as racism and inequality. To address these issues, it may be necessary to address root causes and implement wider societal changes.

    jackOakTownA
  • jackjack 135 Pts   -   edited January 1
    Hello:

    Those things are way too important to be reduced to a one liner, so I'm going to expand... 

    1.  Qualified immunity is when the cops CAN'T be sued.  Consequently, they are NOT held accountable.  ALL law enforcement are covered.

    2.  Police unions keep BAD cops on the force.

    3. Let's say you're poor AND you're a jay walker.  Cops bust you and take you to jail..  Your cash bail, even if it's $100, puts your poor family in dire straights..  You probably lost your job.  You have no car to get to court, so you miss it, and get a warrant on you and viola - you're stuck in a revolving door you may never get out of.

    4.  Civil asset forfeiture is the most insidious of them all.. Let's say you withdrew $25,000 in cash, to pay for the used car you just bought across town, and a cop stops you on the way.  He spies the bank bag on your seat and asks if he can search your car.  You say yes, cause you have no drugs.  Then the cop POCKETS your money, and keeps it - LEGALLY.  Charges do not have to be levied against you.   If you want your money back, you have to sue.. 

    5.  Used to be, a judge decided how much time a criminal will do..  But, with mandatory sentencing, the prosecutor decides how much time he'll do based on what he charges him with.  So, the judge is relegated to being nothing more than a clerk.

    6,  I don't need to expand on getting rid of the drug war, do I?

    excon

    just_sayinOakTownA
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 90 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Qualified Immunity is not absolute immunity

    @jack
    Qualified immunity is not the same as absolute immunity. Yes, an officer can be sued.  An officer is protected if she does something in good faith, but as the Supreme Court has said, it  applies  to “all but the plainly incompetent or those who knowingly violate the law."  If someone violates another's rights in a way they should have known was wrong, they are not protected.  Courts have said that officers can be sued and qualified immunity does not apply when the facts are “sufficiently clear" that a reasonable officer would understand that they are violating a constitutional or statutory right.  So an officer can't beat someone and claim qualified immunity.  They can't knowingly violate a constitutional right and claim qualified immunity.  They also can't plead ignorance, if it is reasonable they should have known better.

    Police make split second decisions and must be allowed to make a mistake, in good faith, in order to ensure innocent lives are protected.  Qualified immunity does not apply to them knowingly violating anyone's rights.  Without qualified immunity officers may second-guess split-second decisions, choosing not to make them, and thus putting even more lives at risk.  Removing qualified immunity would lead to unwarranted lawsuits, in which judges and juries could second-guess split-second decisions made to protect life and property and lead to significant costs for cities, and officers.  .
  • jackjack 135 Pts   -   edited January 2
    Yes, an officer can be sued.  An officer is protected if she does something in good faith, but as the Supreme Court has said, it  applies  to “all but the plainly incompetent or those who knowingly violate the law." 
    Hello j:

    Only in the most outrageous of situations does a judge rule against a cop.  In the main, cops have no accountability.  If a cop can't act correctly within a split second, he needs another line of work.  He should NOT be given a mulligan because things happened too quickly for him.

    excon
    just_sayinOakTownA
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 90 Pts   -   edited January 2
    @jack
    Police are held accountable in several ways: 1) Civil lawsuits - private litigants filed over 15,000 cases in federal district courts to enforce civil rights, and incarcerated individuals filed well over 30,000 civil rights claims in 2013 alone.  2) review by board - incidents are all reviewed by a board of people who know and understand the job.  3) DOJ review - either Civil Rights division on law enforcement division.  This is especially true for allegations of department wide racism or misconduct.  

    If you think it is easy to make split second decisions where a wrong choice will result in people being killed then I encourage you to go to the National Police Museum in Washington DC.  They have a training simulation that will allow you to go through a variety of situations where your actions dictate the reactions of others.  I'd suggest trying the active school shooter one where the officer has been called to a school where an active shooter is killing kids, while kids are trying to get away from the killer.  If you can avoid being murdered, and shooting any kids and be able to apprehend all the killers without killing them or letting them kill anyone - then you might have what it takes to be a police officer.  And know that the simulation is based on a combination of real life events and scenarios.

    Or you could try the simulation where the boy friend is choking his girlfriend to death.  If you make the wrong split-second decision, either the boyfriend will be dead, or the girlfriend, or... I don't want to spoil it for you.  In the few times that I've seen it, usually at least 2 people die, often the officer is one of the dead.  To think that an officer can be prepared for all sudden split-second decisions is just not realistic.  
  • jackjack 135 Pts   -   edited January 2



    If you think it is easy to make split second decisions where a wrong choice will result in people being killed then I encourage you to go to the National Police Museum in Washington DC.  T
    Hello again, just:

    Nahhh..  WHO pays the damages in those lawsuits??  That's right..  It's YOU and ME - the taxpayers - NOT the guilty cop!  Look..  If I knew that I could misbehave and somebody else would pay for it, I'd misbehave all the time..  And, the cops DO.

    I don't think it's easy being a cop..  I think it's hard - VERY hard..  Nonetheless, I don't think we should give a pass to those who don't live up to that standard..

    excon

    PS>  Any comment on the other things I suggested??
    just_sayinOakTownA
  • just_sayinjust_sayin 90 Pts   -  
    @jack
    It would be inaccurate to think police are given a pass when they make a mistake.  Again, qualified immunity is not the same as absolute immunity.  Officers who knowing violate a person's civil rights, or if the officer should have known they were violating someone's rights are not protected and can be prosecuted or sued for their behavior.  It is true that many localities will represent the officer in lawsuits where qualified immunity applies, however this is not universal, nor does it protect the officer from losing her job, or protect her from disciplinary action.  

    So you think it is just that a police officer has to go to court for a bogus lawsuit filed by a disgruntled person that he arrested.  Last year prisoners brought 28,000 lawsuits and lost about 99% of them.  Is it fair to a police officer to be barraged with frivolous lawsuits and have to pay for them out of pocket.  
  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 4891 Pts   -   edited January 2
    I think that the police training should be much more rigorous. Half a year for a job of such importance is laughable: typical university undergraduate programs are 4 years long, and no one is by any means a specialist by the end of such a program. Police officer training is much more important than training of someone wanting to do filmography and should be at least as long and hard, if not more so.

    Police officers should be trained in various martial arts, they should have to undertake regular psychological and physical tests, they should be forced to maintain a strict ethical code. In the US, I see regularly overweight police officers stopping at McDonalds for a burger, with a cigarette in their hands. They speed on highways, speak in profanities, forget the most basic laws that they are supposed to enforce... Many police officers resemble lazy Yakuza members more than anything. This is unacceptable.

    Look at a country like Japan, or, hell, even China. People there respect police officers and can rely on them, and for a good reason. In most countries, unfortunately, police officers are not your friends: they, like bears in the forest, may be fun to interact with sometimes, but you always have to keep your guard up.
    jack
  • BoganBogan 266 Pts   -  
    just_sayin
    x96.png 311.3K
  • BoganBogan 266 Pts   -  
    just_sayin
    x52.png 648.1K
  • PepsiguyPepsiguy 81 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: Not completely

    We only need to:

    * redirect tax money spent on healthcare to the police
    * Arm them with stronger weapons and armor
    * Make it easier to fire corrupt police officers
    * harshly punish officers who accept bribes and ally themselves with criminals
  • NomenclatureNomenclature 805 Pts   -  
    Argument Topic: It's More Complicated Than That

    The police service is there to protect the existing system. It's a component of the system and reflects that system. If the system is unfair and can't be rationally justified it always results in an authoritarian police service.
    OakTownA
  • The idea of if a policing force should be reformed is not whole truth. The constitutional argument is the police system had been reformed and failed. What now?

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