Is A Two Party System Truly A Democracy?

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Duh

@Nomenclature
There are currently over 200 active political parties in the United States.  Two dominate.  And don't pretend you were not referring to the United States.

Do some research before babbling.

Nomenclature

@JulesKorngold

There are currently over 200 active political parties in the United States.  Two dominate.

You appear to have missed out the part where you explain that "two dominate" because they are the only two with adequate funding to win an election campaign. Both the Republican Party and the Democrats collect millions of dollars each year, and minor parties cannot possibly compete with the financial resources of either. See:-

The financial disadvantage of minor parties impedes their ability to amass resources that are vital to mounting a serious challenge to the two major parties. They lack funds to establish and equip permanent headquarters. They cannot hire staff and experienced consultants to conduct polls, gather political intelligence, court the press, generate new media outreach, or manage campaigns. (Rosenstone, Behr, & Lazarus, 2000).

And don't pretend you were not referring to the United States.

Why would I pretend I was not referring to the United States? I was clearly referring to the United States.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Much Whining About Nothing

@Nomenclature
Minor parties ARE minor because they represent the interests and concerns of only a small number of people... Democracy at work.

In recent presidential elections, the voter turnout has been only around 55-60% of eligible voters (most voting Republican or Democrat, obviously).  It tells me minor parties have a great opportunity to recruit followers.  What does it tell you?

Some minor parties that need more outreach to really make an impact:

1. Libertarian Party
2. Green Party
3. Constitution Party
4. Alaskan Independence Party
   
5. American Independent Party
   
6. Peace and Freedom Party 
   
7. Unity Party
   
8. Independent Party
   
9. Working Families Party
   
10. Liberal Party
    
11. Ecology Party 
    
12. People's Party
    
13. Reform Party
    
14. Bread and Roses Party
    
15. Working Class Party 
    
16. Natural Law Party
    
17. U.S. Taxpayers Party 
    
18. Grassroots-Legalize Cannabis Party
    
19. Alliance Party

Nomenclature

@JulesKorngold

Minor parties ARE minor because they represent the interests and concerns of only a small number of people

Don't make me laugh. You're brazenly trying to put the cart before the horse. Without adequate funding, a minor political party can't spend money on advertising or on marketing itself to a larger audience, but you're flipping that upside down and arguing that minor parties can't obtain funding because the audience they'd need funding to reach, isn't giving them funding. This is more of your typical sophistry.

I know a local burger bar which makes some of the tastiest, freshest burgers I've ever eaten. The quality of their food puts McDonalds and Burger King both to shame. The idea that their customer base is small because they don't represent the "interests and concerns" of many people is equally as ridiculous as your proposal that minor political parties don't represent the interests and concerns of voters. They don't have the funding to compete and it's that simple.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Let's Focus On One Case

@Nomenclature said:  a minor political party can't spend money on advertising or on marketing itself to a larger audience

The People's Party has a comprehensive website https://peoplesparty.org/ .  Can you find them reaching out on Facebook?  I can't.  Maybe you can.

They should at least advertise for free on social media.  Are they really trying to expand?

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: How A Small Burger Place Can Increase Its Customer Base

@Nomenclature

1. Offer discounts and promotions.
2. Improve menu offerings with unique or specialty burgers.
3. Enhance customer experience through friendly service and a clean environment.
4. Utilize social media and online ordering.
5. Partner with delivery services for expanded reach.
6. Host events or sponsorships in the local community.
7. Collaborate with local businesses for cross-promotion.
8. Collect customer feedback and continuously improve offerings.

Show me where this online advice mentions ADVERTISING.

Nomenclature

Argument Topic: Are You Even For Real? Lmfao.

It's difficult to even fathom that you're actually sitting there arguing that my local snack bar can compete with the multi-million dollar McDonalds empire. McDonalds makes over 13 billion dollars a year in gross profit and their advertising campaigns have ensured that the brand is recognised almost everywhere on Earth. 

Christ, you are extremely thick, aren't you? You're a bit like an out of date yoghurt: nauseating, thick and corrupt.

Nomenclature

@JulesKorngold

Show me where this online advice mentions ADVERTISING.

If advertising isn't beneficial, THEN WHY DO PEOPLE DO IT? You absolute halfwit.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: How A Small Burger Place Can Increase Its Customer Base

Nomenclature said:

It's difficult to even fathom that you're actually sitting there arguing that my local snack bar can compete with the multi-million dollar McDonalds empire. 

Read my title again.  Did I mention "compete" with a mega-business?

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Like You

Nomenclature said:

@JulesKorngold

If advertising isn't beneficial, THEN WHY DO PEOPLE DO IT? You absolute halfwit.

People do lots of silly and useless things.

Nomenclature

@JulesKorngold

Did I mention "compete" with a mega-business?

Yes, you ignorant piece of Islamophobic trash. You claimed minor political parties are minor because they don't represent the interests of many people, but the actual truth is that they don't have the funding to compete with the major parties. 

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Your Confusion

Nomenclature said:

@JulesKorngold

Did I mention "compete" with a mega-business?

Yes, you ignorant piece of Islamophobic trash. You claimed minor political parties are minor because they don't represent the interests of many people, but the actual truth is that they don't have the funding to compete with the major parties. 

You're confusing eating a burger with voting.  Not the same thing, numbnut.

Dee

@JulesKorngold

You really ought to dry up Cornfed , your st-pidity is almost as annoying as your poor picked upon Jew man act 

Nomenclature

@JulesKorngold

You're confusing eating a burger with voting.

Don't make me explain analogies to you. It's early and I haven't the energy to fix your disingenuous ignorance about the way campaign finance works.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: The Solution

@Nomenclature said:  I haven't the energy 
Eat a burger from your "perfect" burger place.  And choke on it.

Nomenclature

@JulesKorngold

Eat a burger from your "perfect" burger place.  And choke on it.

Come on now buddy.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: You're Boring Me

@Nomenclature
I'm gonna watch Israel bomb Gaza on the news.  Bye.

Dee

@JulesKorngold

jack

JulesKorngold said:

You're confusing eating a burger with voting.  Not the same thing, numbnut.

Hello Jules:

The discussion you're having with this guy makes more sense when put in the proper context:

1.  He's a hateful antisemite

2.  He's a committed anti-capitalist

3.  He's a prolific name caller

excon

JulesKorngold

@jack
I already muted Dee.  I Nomenclature for blatant antisemitism.  Hopefully, aarong will ban him like RickeyD.

Dee

Argument topic .....hypocrisy of American Jew Korngold

Imagine that  @JulesKorngold an American Jew takes pleasure in innocents being blown apart as he said earlier " I'm gonna watch Israel bomb Gaza on the news" .......says it all haters gotta hate .......

Luigi7255

@JulesKorngold

The idea that the 200 parties even compare with the two that dominate is absolutely hilarious, last presidential election, parties deviating from the two got a COMBINED total of 1.85%, which is 2.9 million people compared to 155.5 million people who voted either Democrat or Republican. Third parties also do not have a single seat in the U.S. Senate and the House, and have a grand total of 23 seats in all state legislatures combined; in fact, there are more vacant seats than third-party seats (44 vacant seats). Third parties are essentially non-existent, no matter how hard you spin it.

Seats of state legislatures:
https://ballotpedia.org/Partisan_composition_of_state_legislatures

Nomenclature

@jack

He's a hateful antisemite

Hi hater.

Just like you to jump in during an argument to get a free kick in. As you know full well I'm not an anti-Semite. You falsely accuse me of being an anti-Semite because you lie about being Jewish all day for clout and hate me pointing out that you're not even remotely Jewish. You're a despicable charlatan and a coward. In fact, as you well know you were forced to leave Create Debate in disgrace for making false claims about being Jewish.

The other two accusations are true. 

Nomenclature

@Luigi7255

The idea that the 200 parties even compare with the two that dominate is absolutely hilarious

Yup. Korngold seems to have a very loose relationship with truth.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: So?

@Luigi7255
What do you recommend?  Require people to vote?

John_C_87

@Luigi7255
The idea that the 200 parties even compare with the two that dominate is absolutely hilarious, last presidential election, parties deviating from the two got a COMBINED total of 1.85%, which is 2.9 million people compared to 155.5 million people who voted either Democrat or Republican. Third parties also do not have a single seat in the U.S. Senate and the House, and have a grand total of 23 seats in all state legislatures combined; in fact, there are more vacant seats than third-party seats (44 vacant seats). Third parties are essentially non-existent, no matter how hard you spin it.

Same can be said about the two party system there is only one political party we are all republicans. There are two types of American republicans those who admit being republican and those who deny being republican…Of the two types of republican there are those among the know and those among the know not.

John_C_87

Nomenclature said:

@Luigi7255

The idea that the 200 parties even compare with the two that dominate is absolutely hilarious

Yup. Korngold seems to have a very loose relationship with truth.

Don't we all?

John_C_87

Article IV

Section 4

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

U.S. Constitution | Constitution Annotated | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

Luigi7255

@JulesKorngold

You missed the entire point of my comment. My point is that third parties are non-existent when you say they all compare with the two main ones. I said nothing about possible solutions to that problem, so don't put words in my mouth.

Luigi7255

@Nomenclature

It's funny how I show how tiny third parties are compared to the Dem and Repub parties, but then he thinks I made the comment as a proposal for "solutions" to said issue.

MayCaesar

@Luigi7255

The fact that these parties do not feature many direct public representatives does not imply that they are "non-existent". They can still significantly influence public policy by altering the platforms of the two primary parties: for instance, the Libertarian Party is responsible for some of the elements of the Republican economical platform, and the Green Party influences the Democratic platform on the environmental front.

The binarity of democratic political spaces is a very old phenomenon and is a simple consequence of several basic game-theoretical laws. The "median voter theorem" guarantees that major parties' platforms are going to intersect on a large number of issues, while the binarity of relationship between any two actors (for each other or against each other) translates to binarity if political representation. There is not a single democratic country in the world where this binarity is not observed: in most countries two major coalitions - the ruling coalition and the opposition - play the same role as the Republican and Democratic party play in the US. If the US featured more relatively dominant parties, they would still form two major coalitions at the end of every election cycle.

Such is the nature of competition for coercive power. The free market may feature multiple viable competitors in a given field because they target different subgroups of the population, while in politics the competition is for the ability to make policies affecting the entire population.

Nomenclature

@Luigi7255

It's funny how I show how tiny third parties are compared to the Dem and Repub parties, but then he thinks I made the comment as a proposal for "solutions" to said issue.

Yes, he was deflecting your point by attacking a straw man. He does that a lot.

Nomenclature

@MayCaesar

The binarity of democratic political spaces is a very old phenomenon and is a simple consequence of several basic game-theoretical laws.

It has nothing to do with game theory and everything to do with democracy being a myth. It's a means by which the unelected economic powers that rule America employ a matched betting strategy to ensure they always remain in power.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Stop

Luigi7255 said:

@JulesKorngold

You missed the entire point of my comment. My point is that third parties are non-existent when you say they all compare with the two main ones. I said nothing about possible solutions to that problem, so don't put words in my mouth.

If you can't even imagine a solution, then stop WHINING about it.

maxx

ok@Nomenclature

Nomenclature

@maxx

Republicans and Democrats are two factions of the exact same party: the business party. 

John_C_87

@Nomenclature

Republicans and Democrats are two factions of the exact same party: the business party. 
So, the two party system is made up of the two groups business and consumer? 

Barnardot

@Nomenclature Well your right for once because we should just have the Nazi party like all those dum koff Germans were sucked into And I bet that Adolf didn't even say one thing in all those speeches. He just copied and pasted all the words of Goballs and quoted that baloney but never said he believd it And then he got Himler and Goring to take care of all the Jew boys so that he would always look innocent and proper and not an extremist girlie boy And of course he never answered any questions because he asked all zee questions.

piloteer

@Nomenclature

The "two party system" is not derived from the original text of the US Constitution. The vast majority of the delegates at the convention for the Constitution purposely rejected any affiliation with political parties. They viewed political parties as an evil, outdated European system derived from the Monarchy. They would have considered supporters of any political party as an evil foreign entity. They are still correct!!!!!       

John_C_87

@piloteer
The "two party system" is not derived from the original text of the US Constitution. The vast majority of the delegates at the convention for the Constitution purposely rejected any affiliation with political parties. They viewed political parties as an evil, outdated European system derived from the Monarchy. They would have considered supporters of any political party as an evil foreign entity. They are still correct!!!!! 

America is not a two-party system nor will it ever be because of the United States Constitution, ignoring the American consitution does not mean it has been ratifed making the unratifed document a threat to some people. America never will be a democratic nation without a revolution, something to keep in mind is America had a War of Independence (War of Legal Independence) and a Civil War. The idea of a two-party system is a form of political elitism as it is using a political idea to support a change made to the voting system that is tested by its state of the union, or for those who are against united states which are not held on the grounds of social approval. Rather a societies ability to openly compete with eachother for the design of the best legal outcome of witten laws.

The argument before the American courts is in whole truth about the link that changes have made with established justice in the voting for Presdient / Presadera. Specifically, taxation without reprentation and is the process in replaciing it now the most perfect state of the union that can be made, or not? The process of change however is still a ratification which means the people will need to place the right to vote on the table of possible events which have lead to state and federal imperfections. This also means other complication added to the ratification process is like National Debt and the interantional resolution of it ownership will be added as well.

John_C_87

Republicans and Democrats are two factions of the exact same party: the business party. 

People who can't understand what the read say this to hide the fact they had ignored the American Constitution believing a United States of law can be created by creator to be so large it can spread cross nations. So  they foolishly do not apply possibilities to their laws in their own political arenas as being connected to the world. America Republicans and Democrats are held as republican because they are bound in united state constitutional right as a state of republic law.

The system is not to blame the voter is to blame and the question is how is the voter best protected form their own mistakes, how do we best protect ourselves from our own mistakes, can we roll back the process to the principle of no taxation without representation and what influences will it have on taxation itself? 

piloteer

@John_C_87

The "business party"?!?! If we view both parties as a single apparatus (which I do), then the policies of that single party would be indistinguishable from a normal functioning communist party. 

John_C_87

@piloteer

Your are making an excuse to have people write a law which is ineffective.....this is why.....

If we view both parties as a single apparatus (which I do), We are at liberty to question the best connection to justice that does not lie on a ballot or publicly about said connection...The view is clear...a republic that acts by vote sharing all legal burdens of truth does not make it a democracy. I think we might be confused about why a lawyer or person may / might be protected from perjury in a court, or publicly but not always as immunity under a united state held in the 1st Amendment right not directly in the American Constitution as a Preamble. Which by the way is a starting argument as an introduction of both self-evident truth and fact.

Everyone who votes in America is republican there is no choice.... America is a republic and the power to voter is held as part of the republic by the United States constitution.... There is not a two party system there has been only a ratification to the voting process and that is all...nothing was ever changed in ratification concerning Article IV Section IV. At this point we are to add a set ground work on expansion of Section to the 22nd Amendment or continue to State wasted efforts fumbling with inferior acts of law.

U.S. Constitution - Twenty-Second Amendment | Resources | Constitution Annotated | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

piloteer

John_C_87 said:

@piloteer

Your are making an excuse to have people write a law which is ineffective.....this is why.....

 Of course it is ineffective. If it were effective, it would be absolutely antithetical to the ideals espoused in the US constitution, particularly our freedom of peaceful assembly. The hope was that non-partisan politics would become US political custom, not law, but they also knew any attempt to squash the formation of political parties while still holding true to the values of liberty would be fleeting and there would probably be nothing they could actually do to stop it. But that doesn't mean they didn't try, and we cannot now, does it?   

The legal political set up of the US government may certainly be a form of Republicanism, but that is just a form of government not, in and of itself a political party, and nothing in the original text of US constitution gives mention of, or lends allegiance to any political party!!!    

https://www.history.com/news/founding-fathers-political-parties-opinion

Not only did many of our founding fathers reject political party allegiance, they also considered it an evil European influence. I never mentioned any law to squash political parties, or change to the Constitution in any manner. I am calling on all US citizens to heed the call of our civic duty as was envisioned by our founding fathers and willfully reject party affiliation and the foreign influence of political parties!!!!  

jack

Nomenclature said:

@jack

In fact, as you well know you were forced to leave Create Debate in disgrace for making false claims about being Jewish.

Hello hater:

Huh?

excon, Jewish Prince STILL on CD.