the grand design

JulesKorngold

The question of the origin of the universe may be beyond the scope of what science can answer. It's possible that the ultimate origin of the universe lies outside of the realm of scientific inquiry, and may be more appropriately explored through philosophy or theology.

maxx

perhaps; however both philosophy and theology are humans first attempt at actual science.We can think but only think at certain answers. For instance" was the singularity nothing more than a seed planted and the big bang just the growth spurt? Perhaps it was just a single neuron firing in some vast brain? We may never know what the universe actually is for we can only see it from our point of view, much in the same way that a single cell in a huge oak tree can only "see" so much of the interior of the tree.  @JulesKorngold

John_C_87

I am sure I am missing something in the readings but i fail to see what, so can some one elaborate? 
 
 I am missing something? Not in the reading...........
 I am missing something? Not in the understanding of what is written either..........Hawkins was wrong about time. He simply did not see the mistake of many people who are treating natural numbers as rational numbers in algebra. You are asking the wrong question. The right question to ask is. How does someone in algebra use like terms or switch the signed foot of a sum when we cannot change the sum placed in motion is moved from right to left or left to right of the equal sign as it does not exist. No zero. Remember.

jack

Argument Topic: I LOVE debates like this

maxx said:

However, since there was no time, therfore no space, since the two are intertwined, how is this miniscule black hole anywhere at all,

Hello m:

Excellent question..  If the big bang created time and space, just where was this pesky thing called a singularity?  In someones head?  That's an interesting hypothesis, but that's someplace, right?  We just don't have answers YET.  I say yet, because I believe, someday we will..  Hopefully in my lifetime too. 

It's possible..  When I was a kid, we thought the continents were static and the Milky Way was the only galaxy there was..  We've come a long way from that.  The question is, is everything knowable.  I say YES. 

excon

John_C_87

@jack
  If the big bang created time and space,

The big bang couldn't create time and space they time & space  are different mathematical models of the same object, "area."

maxx

the question was, if space and time are basically one of the same, where or rather how was the singularity anywhere at all, considering there was no space or time as of yet. never mind the math, for I done said i am not a physicist, so explain it in laymans terms.@John_C_87

Barnardot

@maxx I think the bit about time is a bit off since you would have to ask that how long before time was there no time if you get what I mean. And any way people forget that time is just a measurement of events and in the end were just measuring things that happen and trying to make sents out of them by putting them in order.

John_C_87

@maxx
there was no space or time as of yet. never mind the math, for I done said i am not a physicist, so explain it in laymans terms.

It isn't a physics question. It is a math question. We are asking if volume / area did not exist. singularity is the absence of volume / area for a unknown reason, not time and space. To answer this mathematical question all we need to do is look at natural numbers as they do not have a zero which describes the mathematically singularity as clearly possible, why? It does not exist in natural numbers. The singularity does however exist in a series of other sum, rational numbers, integer numbers, whole numbers.

In the idea of a big bag. What I gather when reading Steven Hawkins work is there is one of two possibilities, a compression from a very substantial accumulation of vacuum, or a compression from a substantial loss of vacuum. From what I read of Hawkins I always get the idea time travel was the explanation to how it occurred and how it was triggered to expand rapidly.

By loss of vacuum we mathematically describe that it is vacuum which dictates mass stability and not gravity. That is what I got out of the reading….hope it helps.... 

maxx

Let me try againand forget the math as well. At the singularity,  and since all tine and space are enclosed with in it, how can area or volumn, or anything at all exist outside of it, when everything is in the pin point of the black hole. Are you suggesting that the singularity createsits own area?@John_C_87

John_C_87

@maxx

Let me try againand forget the math as well.
Then don't ask for aswers that require a gedneral understanding you are bring up math as part of your question. By simply asking how at singularity, the singularity of volume( space) and area ( space and area) are enclosed in the creation of singularity. Again, both Hawkin's and Einstine suggest time travles is the cause of singularity. First Einstien when it is sugested by gedneral reltivity that if an objext move at faster then the speed of light(energy)

"The person traveling at the speed of light would experience a slowing of time. For that person, time would move slower than for someone who is not moving. Also, their field of vision would change drastically. The world would appear through a tunnel-shaped window in front of the aircraft in which they are traveling."

What Would Happen If You Traveled At The Speed Of Light? » Science ABC
Einstien's words not mine.

At the singularity, and since all time and space are enclosed with in it, how can area or volume, or anything at all exist outside of it, when everything is in the pinpoint of the black hole. Are you suggesting that the singularity creates its own area?

 I told you "They" both Einstein and Hawking blame time travel as the cause of singularity. Not me! The suggestion is made repeatedly by Einstein and Hawking that it is time travel moving from where time exists, to where time does not exist which creates singularity. Though Hawking openly suggests human time travel will be possible the notion is sugested in early ideas written in other books, which is by mathematics simply just the wrong words to use as a description to a physics event. As time travel is now possible and is simple misrepresented mathematically by people. The minds of movie and television hype does not accurately depict what time travel ever was.

Just to be clear, I pinpointed an issue and prove this is wrong simple by stating a dangerous fact natural number do not have a "zero." A compass, a clock, both had used a list of natural numbers, and it has been corrupted to create ease of overall use by public ignorance for lack of better word. This one practice brings into question the digital clock as it arbitrary states for record zeroes are now in the principle of natural numbers. Tell me how anyone set a scientific method to create fix equation to resolve the issue of math error within algebra, that natural numbers really never having a zero value? How other than field of site and triangulation does scientific method set that a compass and clock do not need to use natural numbers for accuracy?

John_C_87

@maxx

I will leave only Hawking, Einstein’s, and math theory in the discussion...Another way to answer is Hawking suggests time travel causes singularity.

Nomenclature

@maxx

Let me try againand forget the math as well. At the singularity,  and since all tine and space are enclosed with in it, how can area or volumn, or anything at all exist outside of it, when everything is in the pin point of the black hole. Are you suggesting that the singularity createsits own area?@John_C_87

Firstly, you're asking for a scientific explanation of something the laws of science -- which are confined to time and space -- aren't relevant to. 

Secondly, nothing else has to exist outside the singularity. The singularity contained all of time and space and it expanded. 

Or, an alternative hypothesis gaining some popularity in physics, is that this universe might be a black hole born from another universe. 

John_C_87

@Nomenclature

1. Time does is not synchronized outside of earth......so where the volume of time is among the universe it is scientifically unknown.

2. He is asking about a point raised from a Steven Hawking book...keep up ..... Hawking shared Einstein’s idea time travel created singularity. Ask me where this sugestion came from? Like I didn't already tell you..

maxx

can uyou explain how time can escape from the singularity@John_C_87

Nomenclature

@John_C_87

He is asking about a point raised from a Steven Hawking book...keep up

No he isn't. He's asking the answer to something which wasn't brought up. And I've read all of Hawking's books. Keep up.

John_C_87

No he isn't. He's asking the answer to something which wasn't brought up. And I've read all of Hawking's books. Keep up. 

You would........I hope you understood them better then the Wikipedia page you linked in debate about Pi. That was funny as all get-up!

Maxx said:  However, after re-reading steven hawkings book; "the grand design" I am struck to what appears to be an inconsistency.

I am compelled to ask do you see the words after re-reading steven hawking’s book Grand design?

Can you read your own words in response to Maxx’s words No he isn't asking a question about a Professor Hawking book. 

Keep up.

 As for these words "Polly want a cracker"?

maxx

sir john; if i am not mistaken. hawking states that the singularity was in essence a black hole; and according to what I understand, nothing can escape a black hole, including time and space; so I ask how the singularity produced the space it was in. never mind inflation, for that is just a model and a theory.   @John_C_87

John_C_87

@Maxx
Can you explain how time can escape from the singularity@John_C_87

Yes.....Not to be insulating but do you really want to try and understand?

First: Time is multi-dimensional simply because it has round rings held in scale and not lines. Time only uses rings proportional so Natural numbers and the numbers used hold like a compass no zero. The value zero's ahd been replaced with synchronization which set a key, the key is then used in the determination of a start to the precise proportion of each round ring of time. The Key is a pure mathematics event vewing a overall natural event of time as a second compass that is literally what it was discovered for to be compass to in navigating the world.I have always had a hard time explaining this to you. Time exists in nature but is not pure it is made pure by use of synchronizing.

These singularities don't represent something physical. Rather, when they appear in mathematics, they are telling us that our theories of physics are breaking down, and we need to replace them with a better understanding. 

What is a singularity? | Live Science

Singularity describes the issue calculating in mathmatics set only in linear algabra when Natural numbers having no zero are mixed without priorities and are used in calculation that are performed with expectation of a accurate sum. Rights Reserved.

Nomenclature

@John_C_87

I hope you understood them better then the Wikipedia page you linked in debate about Pi

Pi? Would that be the mathematical constant you keep claiming is an "abbreviation"?

I am compelled to ask do you see the words after re-reading steven hawking’s book Grand design?

Do you understand that Maxx and Steven Hawking are not the same person John, or would you perhaps like a diagram? If Hawking had brought up what Maxx is asking about, Maxx wouldn't have to ask about it, would he? You see how logic works John? Or would you like a diagram of that also?

Nomenclature

@maxx

if i am not mistaken. hawking states that the singularity was in essence a black hole

You are mistaken. Singularities and black holes aren't the same thing. Singularities are speculated to exist inside black holes. 

MayCaesar

If Hawking really wrote that, then he made an inaccurate statement: as you pointed, talking about what happened "before" the Big Bang does not make logical sense. A more accurate statement is that at the beginning of the Big Bang the Universe had the infinite matter density - or, even better, that the limit of the density as time goes to the zero point is infinity.

As for the "where question", as an analogy, imagine a balloon with an ant sitting on its surface: you can pinpoint the location on the surface of that ant and describe it, say, in polar coordinates. Now the balloon starts letting out air. The ant's polar coordinates do not change, yet its physical location does change. Assuming the balloon eventually shrinks into a point, it will no longer make sense to talk about the ant's polar coordinates. Similarly, it makes no sense to talk about the location of the initial black hole as it was the size of the whole Universe, but we can absolutely talk about the position of any of its individual points relative to it as a whole.

Nomenclature

@MayCaesar

If Hawking really wrote that, then he made an inaccurate statement: as you pointed, talking about what happened "before" the Big Bang does not make logical sense.

Hawking didn't write that. Maxx is misinterpreting what he's read. 

You're right that talking about what happened before the BB doesn't make sense, which is much closer to what Hawking actually wrote.

John_C_87

@Nomenclature

Pi? Would that be the mathematical constant you keep claiming is an "abbreviation"?

No Pi is the constant that as approximation approximately equal to 3.14159 unfit for solution of equation (mah problems that expect aswers) involving sums, products, powers, and intergers..

Solution: an action or process of solving a problem
Solution Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

At maxx: You are mistaken. Singularities and black holes aren't the same thing. Singularities are speculated to exist inside black holes. 

No, they singularities are predicted to be inside a black whole from mathematics however the prediction is really made from the difference between Natural numbers and other types of numbers. The difference being Natural numbers do not have a zero. 

Nomenclature

@John_C_87

No, they singularities are predicted to be inside a black whole

What you meant to write was:-

Yes, singularities and black holes are not the same thing.

Nevermind John. Get back to your pi denial.

John_C_87

@MayCaesar
 or, even better, that the limit of the density as time goes to the zero point is infinity.

Time does not real have a zero as a unit measurement. The zero had been adopted later as a marketing ploy as most if not all people find it is too hard to understand the reasons why the use of natural numbers took place in the first place. When the first clock makers synchronized time in a way that was multi-dimensional other than sun dial or Hourglass all tools for navigation the idea of precision was much higher as there was no GPS. 

The lack of zero gave minutes and seconds a start indication at the value of what is really 60 and not 0. The reason a clock never had a zero was a magnetic compass also did not have a zero either when time had been discovered. They had been expected to mathmatically work together so both needed to be based on natural numbers. A compass is the device which discovered magnetic field then representing degree the vertical lines latitude. Where Time became the discovery of scale oblivious to almost all people it production multi-demssions as rings not magnetic degree set as North / 360 degrees, East / 90 degrees, West / 270 degree, South/ 90 degrees to magnetic compass readings.

: angular distance measured on a great circle of reference from the intersection of the "adopted zero" meridian with this reference circle to the similar intersection of the meridian passing through the object
Longitude Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

John_C_87

What you meant to write was:-Yes, singularities and black holes are not the same thing.

The singularity is a mistake mathematically created in algebra and is not related to the black hole or the approximation of pi. It is predicted to be, or the approximated location is inside the black Hole.I know what I have proven as fact....I know the correction and how it is to work in an equation expecting sums, Bla...bla.....Bla.bla............bla, bla.......Bla ( Some real Gibberish) so you don't  parrot lies as much. It is painful and depressing to listen to.

John_C_87

@maxx

sir john; if i am not mistaken. hawking states that the singularity was in essence a black hole; and according to what I understand, nothing can escape a black hole, including time and space; so I ask how the singularity produced the space it was in. never mind inflation, for that is just a model and a theory.   @John_C_87

Yea, I kind of got that idea when I read his book as well, but~ understand the sugestion of a black hole suproting an event of singularity comes from mathmatics not Hawking himself. how the singularity produced the space it was in........said in the most basic way motion and a suden stop. When using numbers how we write the numbers matters the same goes with words. How I would understand mathmartically the question is how does a singularity produce the space it will be in? There is a choice that needs to be made created by "our" humanities use of numbers. Do we continue to call Time Travle though clearly something else that sciencfiction comunity has created as a means to attract attention and money in a story.

Mathematics describes an event of Mass, Matter, Energy, Recurrence as a Irrational value or sum in motion.