Americans in Jerusalem Are Helping Kick Out Palestinians. Thoughts?

Phite

When you get honest, you won't be so opposed to facts. 

And then you'll stop deleting them.

Bogan

@Phite

This is why I like coming onto debate sites.    You get completely misinformed and brain washed lefties such as yourself who think that they know everything, because they have memorised a few slogans and chants, and they start topics they know nothing about.   And they begin the topic with an arrogance born of the idea that people who agree with them are super brains and those that oppose them are cretins.     So they are completely unprepared for opponents who know how to think, know the facts, and can string a sentence, or a few paragraphs together.    It was not supposed to be that way, was it, Mr Phite?     You are so misinformed about Israel that to you, the entire situation is black and white, and you would have no trouble showing your cretinous opponents that they were dead wrong.        It never occurred to you that there were 50 different shades of grey that put a completely different perspective on it.

Instead of chanting the mantras that your eft wing professors have inculcated into your head, go to a place called "a library" and get hold of some books about the Six Day War, and the Yom Kippur war, and read them.     I know that this is probably asking too much.     Young people today have the attention spans of gnats and the idea of reading anything they regard with horror.    That is why they are so easily fooled by people in power who know how to manipulate near illiterates.

MineSubCraftStarved

@Bogan

Then you get the peculiar people like MSCS who seem to think that being anti everything displays how "smart" they are.     In a display of Olympic level st-upidity they go into bat for their sworn enemies over Israel because they think that this is what "intelligent" far seeing, liberal social progressives should do.     So they take the side of their Muslim enemies, who utterly despise their left wing ideology anyway, just to show how different they are from the "deplorable" herd of ordinary people they look down upon, while they preach equity. 

Wait wait wait... what now? From what I recall I took the side of Israel in this debate, not my "Muslim enemies". Also not entirely sure where the idea that I was a liberal social progressive is came from...

Just came back onto the site btw after an extended break, hoping to restart some debates.

Bogan

@MineSubCraftStarved

Okay, if you are a Good Guy, then I forgive you.

Phite

@Bogan

I'm afraid none of that addresses the issue of why you apparently side with a foreign power who attacked a U.S. military vessel and killed part of its crew in international waters.  Now, since the Israelis knowingly attacked an American vessel in international waters, what's your rationale for blaming the victims instead of seeing it as an act of war against the United States?  The Israelis said it was a case of mistaken identity.  However, the Liberty's flag was flying.  So, they were lying.  Weren't they?

And in case you're still in denial about that, here's something from the National Security Agency/Central Security Service:

 

EXHIBIT | Aug. 4, 2021

Cold War: U.S.S. Liberty

The Museum displays the flag that flew at the time of the attack of the U.S.S. Liberty, a U.S. Naval Ship, on June 8, 1967, when the ship found itself in the middle of the 1967 Arab-Israeli Six-Day War. Cruising 25 miles off the Gaza coast, it was attacked by Israeli fighters and torpedo boats at 2 o'clock on a clear and sunny day. There was no apparent provocation, and the reason for the attack has never been fully resolved, although Israel described it as an identification error and sent restitution for the damage and loss of life. The U.S. government accepted the explanation of the Israeli government concerning the identification error. The loss of 34 men was the largest loss of life in a single event in American cryptologic history. It occurred, ironically, during a war in which the United States was not a participant.

Cold War: U.S.S. Liberty > National Security Agency/Central Security Service > Exhibit View (nsa.gov)

Oliver Kirby, the NSA's deputy director for operations at the time of the Liberty attack, confirmed the existence of NSA transcripts.

Asked whether he had personally read such transcripts, Kirby replied, "I sure did. I certainly did."

"They said, 'We've got him in the zero,'" Kirby recalled, "whatever that meant -- I guess the sights or something. And then one of them said, 'Can you see the flag?' They said 'Yes, it's U.S, it's U.S.' They said it several times, so there wasn't any doubt in anybody's mind that they knew it."

Asked whether the NSA had in fact intercepted the communications of the Israeli pilots who were attacking the Liberty, Kirby, the retired senior NSA official, replied, "We sure did."

Kirby, now 86 and retired in Texas, said the transcripts were "something that's bothered me all my life. I'm willing to swear on a stack of Bibles that we knew they knew."

___________________________________

W. Patrick Lang, a retired Army colonel who spent eight years as chief of Middle East intelligence for the Defense Intelligence Agency, said the transcripts were used as "course material" in an advanced class for intelligence officers on the clandestine interception of voice transmissions.

"The flight leader spoke to his base to report that he had the ship in view, that it was the same ship that he had been briefed on and that it was clearly marked with the U.S. flag," Lang recalled in an e-mail.

"The flight commander was reluctant," Lang said in a subsequent interview. "That was very clear. He didn't want to do this. He asked them a couple of times, 'Do you really want me to do this?' I've remembered it ever since. It was very striking. I've been harboring this memory for all these years."

__________________________________

So, now that you understand that it was a deliberate attack on a U.S. military vessel and its crew (unless you actually believe that I've made up the names and quotes), why are you siding with the foreign power that knowingly attacked a U.S. military vessel and killed military personnel in international waters?  It obviously makes you mad to be called out on this, which is why you're doing your song and dance about me instead of what Israel did.  

What you need to do if you'd like to participate in an actual debate is to first explain your willing to ignore testimony from the crew of the USS Liberty--as well as all those from all of the people who listened in on the exchange between Israeli pilots and their ground-control.  And when you find yourself unable to make all the things I've posted, try not to take it out on the guy who filled you in.

So, was the crew of the USS Liberty lying?  Were all the people who said they heard the communications between Israeli ground-control and Israeli pilots lying?  Or are you still of the mind that everyone lies but Israel?    

Phite

What you need to do if you'd like to participate in an actual debate is to first explain your willingness to ignore testimony from the crew of the USS Liberty--as well as from all of the other people who listened in on the exchange between Israeli pilots and their ground-control.  And when you find yourself unable to make all the things I've posted go away, try not to take it out on the guy who filled you in.

So, was the crew of the USS Liberty lying?  Were all the people who said they heard the communications between Israeli ground-control and Israeli pilots lying?  In other words, are you still of the mind that no one was telling the truth except for Israel?

When I post all of the relevant quotes from all of the relevant sources which confirms my point about the deliberate Israeli attack on the USS Liberty, someone here would rather delete it than let the conversation continue to its proper conclusion.

So, if you can't show that the people who listened in on communications between Israeli ground-control and Israeli pilots were lying, then my point stands.  The attack on the Liberty was deliberate, and it was the first time in U.S. history that a foreign power knowingly attacked a U.S. vessel, killing crewmembers, and all in international waters.  And it was the only time in history that "loyal" Americans side with a foreign attacker instead of their own country's victims. 

Phite

If the moderation here is up to it, they should at least offer an explanation for why it isn't good to prove a point with provable facts.

When did accurate information become the enemy here?? 

Bogan

To Phite.    Stop whining and debate the real issue here or "debate" with yourself.

Phite

See what you did there?  You tried to turn this around by accusing me of not making an argument when you're the one not willing to state whether not you believe that Israel knowingly attacking a U.S. military vessel in international waters.  I started by making the point that what the Israelis did to the USS Liberty and her crew really spoke to their character.  Someone else alluded to the fact that the USS Liberty was a spy ship.  Apparently, they believe that that would justify the Israelis' act of war against the U.S.

So, do you believe that the Israelis should have been able to get away with knowingly attacking a U.S. military vessel in international waters and killing crewmembers?  And if so, why?

What you need to do if you'd like to participate in an actual debate is to first explain your willingness to ignore testimony from the crew of the USS Liberty--as well as from all of the other people who listened in on the exchange between Israeli pilots and their ground-control.

Bogan

Oh, rubbish!    I told you I did not know why the Israelis attacked a US Navy ship, but I provided a reasonable explanation which is probably accurate.  Now, where do you want to go with that information, now?

I suppose you want me to abase myself and say the the Israelis are just rotten because they killed over 30 US sailors?        This is just another "hate Israel" post by somebody who is either a Muslim, or a rich, spoiled western kid who has been brainwashed to think that the Muslims are the poor oppressed, and the Israelis the evil oppressors.      Sorry, I don't buy that.    The Israelis killed British servicemen in Palestine after WW2, and I suppose I should despise them for that.    But that was a long time ago.    The sins of the fathers are not visited upon the children.      I admire the Israelis and especially the IDF.     I consider the Muslims my self declared enemies, and anybody who is the enemy of my enemy is my friend.   I think if somebody has a holy book which instructs it's followers to kill me, then I think it would be bad manners if I did not believe them.

Qu'ran 8:39: “And fight them until there is no more disbelief in Islam and the religion will all be for Allâh alone...”

 Qu'ran 9:123: “O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allâh is with those who are the pious.”

Qur'an: 3.151    "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!"

Qur'an 8:12    Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."

Qur'an 9:5   "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

Qur'an 8.12      "Your Lord inspires the angels with the message, "I will terrorise the unbelievers.    Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them.     Strike off their heads and each of their fingers and toes."

Qur'an 8:39:    "And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere (in this earth of Allah)."

Qur'an 9:29    : "Fight those who believe neither in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth (Islam), even if they are of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "

Quran 2:216:    "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you" 

Quran 9:5:    "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem".

Quran 47:4:   "Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight),  strike off their heads;  at length; then when you have made wide Slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives": thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens."

Quran 9:123:     "Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you."

Maybe if the guy who made these statements was named "Adolph Hitler" and the book these quotes came from was called :Mien Kampf", maybe then the penny would drop and you, would begin to realise why I think that Muslims are dangerous?     I support the Israelis, and consider them my ally against this evil religion called "Islam."

 

Phite

You were hoping you could avoid addressing the facts I put in front of your face by going off on a tangent about Muslims.  But no, that's not going to work here.  Answer the challenge instead of characterizing the challenger.

Let's do a hard reset and get you back on track.

What you need to do if you'd like to participate in an actual debate is to first explain your willingness to ignore testimony from the crew of the USS Liberty--as well as from all of the other people who listened in on the exchange between Israeli pilots and their ground-control, proving that they knew they were attacking a U.S. military vessel and killing her crew.

So, was the crew of the USS Liberty lying?  Were all the people who said they heard the communications between Israeli ground-control and Israeli pilots lying?  Are you still of the mind that no one was telling the truth about the attack except Israel?

If you can't show that the people who listened in on communications between Israeli ground-control and Israeli pilots were lying, then my point stands.  The attack on the Liberty was deliberate, and it was the first time in U.S. history that a foreign power knowingly attacked a U.S. military vessel, killing crewmembers in international waters, and "loyal" Americans siding with the foreign attacker instead of their own country's victims.

So, was everyone lying about that day except for the Israelis?

Bogan

@Phite

I have already told you that I do not know why Israel attacked a US Navy intelligence ship during the Six Day War.  But I did give you my opinion of why it happened.      So, where do you want to go now?

Phite

I don't have to go anywhere now.  I've already shown you that the Israelis knowingly attacked a U.S. military vessel in international waters, killing crewmembers.  That was an act of war. So, unless you have something to prove otherwise, there's nowhere for you to go!  

I've also shown that some "loyal" Americans inexplicably have no problem with a foreign power knowingly attacking a U.S. military vessel in international waters and killing crewmembers.

Bogan

@Phite

I would opine that many "loyal" Americans had a very big problem with Israelis killing US servicemen.      Fifty years ago, there was quite a lot of anti semitism on the right side of politics, but today, it is concentrated on the left.      Take yourself for example.    You are obviously either a leftie of a Muzzie just looking for an issue to stoke the fires of anti Israeli sentiment.  

Phite

Bogan said:

@Phite

I would opine that many "loyal" Americans had a very big problem with Israelis killing US servicemen.      Fifty years ago, there was quite a lot of anti semitism on the right side of politics, but today, it is concentrated on the left.      Take yourself for example.    You are obviously either a leftie of a Muzzie just looking for an issue to stoke the fires of anti Israeli sentiment.  

Let's recap.  This thread concerns the dynamics involved in the relationship between Israel, the Palestinians, and America.

I said:  It would appear that the Israeli government is guilty of executing US soldiers and doing their utmost to sink their ship along with the survivors.  I believe that speaks to their character . . .

You've shown nothing to disprove anything I've posted.  That means that my point stands: Knowingly attacking a U.S. military vessel and killing her crewmembers in international waters is an act of war, and most certainly speaks to character.  Calling me an anti-semite for being pro-American really exposes the nature of the conflict going on in your head right now.  It really speaks to character . . .

Bogan

@Phite

So you claim that an incident that happened over 50 years ago indelibly marks the Israelis as reprehensible forever?    Okay, that is your opinion.     Seventy years ago started war without bothering to declare it first.     The Japanese acted with the greatest brutality in conducting that war.     Australian nurses and nuns were gang raped and executed.    Wounded POW's were bayonetted in their hospital beds.    Australian civilians, men, women, and chidden,  captured by the Japanese Navy from merchant ships were bayonetted and thrown overboard.    POW's were put out on rifle ranges and used as target practice.    pacific Island native people were used to "blood" new soldiers by making them hunt the natives down and bayonet them.   Australian POW's were used as slaves and worked to death.   

But do I hold a grudge against the Japanese people today?  Of course not.   The times have changed, and the sins of the fathers are not visited on the children.

Phite

Bogan said:

@Phite

So you claim that an incident that happened over 50 years ago indelibly marks the Israelis as reprehensible forever?

That they are guilty of a war crime has already been established.  That they lied about their reason for doing it has also been established. That there is no statute of limitations concerning murder or war crimes has also been established long ago.  That you prefer to ignore the fact that a war crime was committed against your own countrymen has also been established. Your position on that war crime reflects the anti-American sentiment of a shameless Israel-firster.

Where did you get the idea that there is a statute of limitations concerning war crimes committed against U.S. military ships and their crews?  You must have simply assumed that one exists.  It doesn't!    

Bogan

Okay, well your first misconception i that i am an American.    I am not, I am an Australian.    

The attack on a US warship by Israel was not just a war crime, it was an act of war.     That the USA itself hushed up the entire affair and swore the surviving crew to secrecy gives credence to my opinion that this incident was hushed up because there was a lot more at stake then just an attack on a US warship which killed over 30 US seamen.   

As for being a "shameless Israel firster", I refute that charge.    I am a shameless Australia firster, and a shameless Anglosphere firster, and a shameless white race firster"     I condemn Israel for the killing of hundreds of British soldiers in Palestine/Israel after WW2.     But it is in the nature of Big Power Politics that grudges can not be held forever.      Japanese soldiers committed unspeakable war crimes against POW's and Australian civilians during WW2, yet now Japanese soldiers train with Australian soldiers in Australia.

I look at Israel in the light of whether it is an ally or an adversary against Muslim aggression.     I see Muslims as an infinitely bigger threat than any from the Jews, who I personally admire for their brains and social cohesion.   

Phite

Bogan said:

Okay, well your first misconception i that i am an American.      

The attack on a US warship by Israel was not just a war crime, it was an act of war.  

I look at Israel in the light of whether it is an ally or an adversary . . . 

Your first misconception is that the Israelis attacked a U.S. warship; it was an intelligence gathering vessel, which means it was pretty much defenseless.  That was the target of Israel's unprovoked attack.  That you find something redeemable in that kind of cowardly act does not mean that it was not cowardly.  It just means that you choose to not recognize it as such, which can be explained by the first sentence in your last paragraph. 

Bottom line is that they did it, and they knew they were destroying a U.S. military vessel with crew aboard because they decided we were the enemy.  There's no do-overs in life, and certainly not when it comes to war crimes and stuff like that.  So, the big takeaway for you in all this is that there is no statute of limitations when it comes to murder and war crimes . . . no matter how much you admire the perpetrator.

JulesKorngold

Phite said:

Your first misconception is that the Israelis attacked a U.S. warship; it was an intelligence gathering vessel, which means it was pretty much defenseless.  

In other words, the USS Liberty was a spy ship.  And what was the primary mission?  @Phite

Phite

Now you're getting it!

Israel had obviously determined that it couldn't trust the U.S. and so it attacked a military vessel belonging to them.  And then they lied about it, claiming it was a case of mistaken identity.  It wasn't!  The Israelis, not wanting any witnesses to the atrocity they were committing, instructed their pilots to sink it.  Some pilots were reluctant to attack, reporting that it was a U.S. vessel.  That is proven by the intercepted communications between Israeli pilots and their ground control; they were instructed to disregard the fact that they were destroying a U.S. vessel, and to sink it.

And the odd thing about it all is that, when the facts are all laid out, the only thing that Israel-firsters have to say is, "Yeah, but . . . Israel." 

That's just really old hat . . .

Bogan

@Phite

Phite quote    Your first misconception is that the Israelis attacked a U.S. warship; it was an intelligence gathering vessel, which means it was pretty much defenseless. 

I do not know if it was defenseless.    It was a US Navy ship, so by definition it is a warship.

Phite quote     That was the target of Israel's unprovoked attack. 

Obviously, the Israelis thought that they were being provoked by having the yanks spy on their super secret military dispositions.     The Russians shot down a US Air force U2 spy plane over Russia, and it was unarmed.    Does that make it an :unprovoked" attack on a civilian aircraft, and not a military target?  

Phite quote     That you find something redeemable in that kind of cowardly act does not mean that it was not cowardly. 

Well, unlike yourself, I can see a bigger picture.     Maybe I am smarter than you?

Phite quote     It just means that you choose to not recognize it as such, which can be explained by the first sentence in your last paragraph. 

I recognise that Israel had it’s back to the wall.    It’s only hope to not lose the war, and have it’s new country exterminated, along with probably the entire Israeli population, was to strike first and keep their operations absolutely secret.    Knowing that if you do lose, your women and girls will be subjected to mass rape, and then made into sex slaves, while all adult males will be executed, and the children made into slaves, puts a very different perspective on why Israel acted the way it did.      Jews don’t walk resignedly into gas chambers any more.

Phite quote     Bottom line is that they did it, and they knew they were destroying a U.S. military vessel with crew aboard because they decided we were the enemy.  There's no do-overs in life, and certainly not when it comes to war crimes and stuff like that.  So, the big takeaway for you in all this is that there is no statute of limitations when it comes to murder and war crimes . . . no matter how much you admire the perpetrator.

 I asked you to tell me if you were either a US leftie or a just a foreign Muslim, and not unexpectedly, you dodged the question.    I think that you are a Middle Eastern Muslim who has been brain washed by your evil Mullahs and Imams to hate Israel.    Look ma-a-a-ate.    You religion stinks.    It was okay for several hundred years when it profited the Arabs by invading their neighbours lands, and stealing everything it could get it’s hands on from Non Muslims.    But those days are over now, despite ISIS’s attempts to go back to basics.

 Name one scientific advance, one medical advance, or one consumer product which you Muslims have contributed to world economic progress in the last 400 years?     You guys are just a bunch of losers who can not focus on what is important to make your civilisation great again.    All you obsess about is “destroy Israel, destroy Israel, destroy Israel”.    I bet that you think that if you destroy Israel, that Allah will make the Arab Muslims the pre eminent civilisation again?   Ain’t gonna happen ma-a-a-a-te.

Phite

Your only rebuttal to the war crime Israel committed against the U.S. is to call me a Muslim.  I'm not a Muslim; you just need for me to be one so that you can hang your failure on something other than the failure itself.  It's still a failure. 

Since you have nothing to refute the facts and obvious conclusions, I'll leave you to your cheerleading Israel's war crime against the United States and how they lied about not recognizing the American flag as they murdered the crew.  You are an Israel-apologist-- murdered U.S. personnel be damned.

You are a strange one indeed.  You admit that the Israelis decided to target the U.S. military vessel for spying on their . . . activities, but you refuse to grant the U.S. the right to respond to that act of war.  You need to remove the halo you've placed on the heads of war criminals.  We've heard all of the people who listened in on the communications between Israeli pilots and their ground-control, so we know that the Israelis committed a war crime.  Did you know that the Israelis opted to not communicate with the USS Liberty when they attempted to make contact?  Israel could have boarded the vessel and smashed all of the equipment on board.  That would have been humane.  But instead of doing that, they decided to kill communications and American soldiers and then sink the ship.  But sure, they had no choice, did they?

Israel-firsters always side with Israel, no matter what?  There's no virtue in that kind of blind support; just a bunch of self-satisfaction.

Bogan

Thank you for at least finally answering my question about whether or not you are a Muslim.    If you had bothered to answer that question several posts ago, there would have been no misunderstanding, and you would not now be looking like a fo-ol by standing on your dignity.

Israel attacked a warship owned by the USA and killed over 30 US Navy seamen.      According to youtube, the attacks took place over two hours and involved Mirage 111 jets, Super Mystere jets, and finally, an attack by Israeli torpedo boats, which torpedoed the USS Liberty and killed most of the seamen.     A US aircraft carrier was in the vicinity and it could, and almost did, intervene and prevented the last attack.     The F4 Phantoms were scrambled when the distress calls from the Liberty were picked up.     It was Robert McNamara himself who ordered the Phantoms, already in the air and on their way, back to the carrier.  .    Why?  I don't know, but it sure is an interesting fact.

The situation is, that the USA could have driven off the Israeli attack and destroyed all of the PT boats who killed almost all of the US servicemen.    But that would have meant war with Israel.     And that was a step too far,.    My guess is, that the Israelis told the yanks in no uncertain terms to not spy on them at this crucial time in their history, or Israel would attack any US asset that was spying on them.    My guess is that the yanks were arrogant, thought that they could do whatever they liked, refused to understand the parlous position that Israel was in, and spied on the Israelis anyway.      If my guess is correct, then at least the yanks learned a lesson.   When it comes to their national survival, take the Israelis very seriously.      The blood of those US serviceman is on the hands of Robert McNamara and the Joint chiefs of Staff.    They could have prevented the entire incident if they had minded their own business,  They could have prevented the final attack which killed most of the US sailors, but they thought twice about it.       It is all about Big Party Politics.      While a series of attacks on a clearly identified US warship should have sparked an immediate declaration of war, if that had happened, the US would have been in an impossible position in the Middle East.     So the yanks covered it up.   

I support the Israelis because they are smart, they won't let anybody bully them, they fight like Germans, and I utterly despise their enemies.     If the enemy of your enemy is your friend, then the Israelis are my friends.

Phite

Bogan said:

Thank you for at least finally answering my question about whether or not you are a Muslim.    If you had bothered to answer that question several posts ago, there would have been no misunderstanding, and you would not now be looking like a fo-ol by standing on your dignity.

Of course, the implication there is that, had you known whether or not I was a Muslim, you would have been able to turn a war crime against the U.S. into something that was actually their fault.  But no, that wouldn't have changed reality for you at all.  You'd still be left dutifully coming up with nothing but theoretical guesses/excuses for Israel.

Isn't it funny how you call everyone's dignity into question except for the ones who committed the war crime?  But thank you for at least resigning yourself to guesses as to why the Israelis refused to communicate with their victims before killing them.  Why they didn't board the vessel and smash every piece of equipment instead of killing crew members and trying to sink the ship is something you're not going to think about because it doesn't foster your affection for the Israelis; it puts your friends in a bad light.  You make guesses concerning their atrocious behavior.  And those guesses "coincidentally" always leave Israel on the high road while everyone else is on the shameful low road. 

I'm thinking that the fo-ol in this case is you.  You're forced to resort to guesses as to why they had a right to kill Americans.  That's foolish.

Bogan

So, what is your self interest in this case?       If you are not a muzzie, and you fear telling me what you are, then let's play guessing games?      You are probably a either an American or Eurotrash spoiled brat university student, living in some academic bubble, who has been brain washed by your peers into being anti everything.    If normal people support Israel, well, you just have to do the opposite to show how "different" you are from the deplorable proles, don't you?       And you also have a compulsive need to show how morally superior you are from the crass middle class. which includes your long suffering parents, who now regret paying for your indoctrination.     Sorry, I meant education? 

Instead of playing games, just tell me who or what you are?   I am an Australian electrician.    See? I have no trouble letting you know my group affiliations.     I presume that the reason why you hate Israel is something you prefer to keep to yourself, and so hiding your group affiliations is important to you.     You don't want to let the cat out of the bag.    C'mon, boy, tell me.    I really would like to understand why you hate the Israelis so much?   

Phite

Someone found a way to help you in your quest to be right.  They're just going to tie my hands.  That, too, is cowardice . . .

Let's try again:

Steve Forslund worked as an intelligence analyst for the 544th Air Reconnaissance Technical Wing, then the highest-level strategic planning office in the Air Force had this to say:

"The ground control station stated that the target was American and for the aircraft to confirm it," Forslund recalled. "The aircraft did confirm the identity of the target as American, by the American flag."

"The ground control station ordered the aircraft to attack and sink the target and ensure they left no survivors."

Forslund said he clearly recalled "the obvious frustration of the controller over the inability of the pilots to sink the target quickly and completely."

"He kept insisting the mission had to sink the target, and was frustrated with the pilots' responses that it didn't sink."

Nor, Forslund said, was he the only member of his unit to have read the transcripts. "Everybody saw these," said Forslund, now retired after 26 years in the military.

Forslund's recollections are supported by those of two other Air Force intelligence specialists, working in widely separate locations, who say they also saw the transcripts of the attacking Israeli pilots' communications.

One is James Gotcher, now an attorney in California, who was then serving with the Air Force Security Service's 6924th Security Squadron, an adjunct of the NSA, at Son Tra, Vietnam.

"It was clear that the Israeli aircraft were being vectored directly at USS Liberty," Gotcher recalled in an e-mail. "Later, around the time Liberty got off a distress call, the controllers seemed to panic and urged the aircraft to 'complete the job' and get out of there."

Six thousand miles from Omaha, on the Mediterranean island of Crete, Air Force Capt. Richard Block was commanding an intelligence wing of more than 100 analysts and cryptologists monitoring Middle Eastern communications.

The transcripts Block remembered seeing "were teletypes, way beyond Top Secret. Some of the pilots did not want to attack," Block said. "The pilots said, 'This is an American ship. Do you still want us to attack?'

"And ground control came back and said, 'Yes, follow orders.'"

Gotcher and Forslund agreed with Block that the Jerusalem Post transcript was not at all like what they remember reading.

"There is simply no way that [the Post transcript is] the same as what I saw," Gotcher said. "More to the point, for anyone familiar with air-to-ground [communications] procedures, that simply isn't the way pilots and controllers communicate."

Block, now a child protection caseworker in Florida, observed that "the fact that the Israeli pilots clearly identified the ship as American and asked for further instructions from ground control appears to be a missing part of that Jerusalem Post article."
___________________________________

Is it your opinion that these guys are lying?

Here's a statement from Steve that you might be interested in . . . or maybe not.

Statement of Stephen Forslund

Phite

Okay, I get it.  I can post provable facts, but not if those facts put Israel in a bad light.

If the facts point to something you are in denial about, why not just look away from them?  That would be waaay more honest than simply having them removed.  I suggest that if you have to resort to censoring the facts of the matter, you must prefer the lie.

Bogan

@Phite ;       Okay, I get it.  I can post provable facts, but not if those facts put Israel in a bad light.

Oh, I get it.      You have to "prove" that Israelis are utterly reprehensible and no reasonable argument to the contrary will be considered.     There are two main "hate Israel" demographics.  The first is, of course, the Muslims, who's evil and backward religion utterly hates Jews, because their prophet (peace be upon him) declared that Jews were the lowest of the low, because they would not convert to his evil religion.     The second is, the spoiled brat progeny of the middle class, who go to university and think that they are God's gift to the human race.     They just go against every mainstream value just to prove how "different", as well as how morally and intellectually superior they are.       I asked you if you were one of these, but as usual you dodged the question.     My considered opinion is that you are probably the latter.  

Phite

As to the reason for the attack:

Historian Gabby Bron wrote in the Yediot Ahronot in Israel that he witnessed Israeli troops executing Egyptian prisoners on the morning of June 8, 1967, in the Sinai town of El Arish.

Bron reported that he saw about 150 Egyptian POWs being held at the El Arish airport where they were sitting on the ground, densely crowded together with their hands held on the back of their necks. Every few minutes, Bron writes, Israeli soldiers would escort an Egyptian POW from the group to a hearing conducted by two men in Israeli army uniforms. Then the man would be taken away, given a spade, and forced to dig his own grave.

The following is from an article ("ISRAEL REPORTEDLY KILLED POWS IN '67 WAR: HISTORIANS SAY DEATHS OF HUNDREDS OF EGYPTIANS WAS COVERED UP") in The Washington Post on August 17, 1995:

"Israeli soldiers killed hundreds of Egyptian prisoners of war during the 1967 Middle East war - deaths that commanders who are now prominent leaders have known about for years, historians said today. The controversy involves some top politicians, including Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and legislator Rafael Eitan [who also gave us U.S. Navy spy Jonathan Pollard, and then lied about it], a former army chief. The allegations dominated news shows, shocking many Israelis who have long prized the notion that their army maintained high ethical standards throughout decades of warfare with the Arab world and military rule over Palestinians. The Army spokesman, Brig. Gen. Amos Gilad, refused to comment. Rabin, who was chief of staff when some of the 1967 killings allegedly were committed, walked away today when a reporter shouted a related question. His office later issued a statement denouncing the killings and calling them isolated incidents.

Did you take note that after Rabin walked away and refusing to answer the question, his office did not deny the killings, and in fact denounced them. And then attempted some damage control by calling the murders isolated incidents.

Bottom line: The Liberty was a state-of-the-art communications vessel. On the morning of the attack on the Liberty, Israelis had murdered captured POWs in the Sinai town of El Arish. Afterward, Israelis attacked the Liberty deliberately and unprovoked on that very same day despite the fact that the Liberty was clearly marked and flying the U.S. flag. Does your loyalty prohibit you from doing the math!

Bogan

@Phite

During WW2, Australian soldiers took part in war crimes against Japanese military personnel, where Japanese soldiers, many of them wounded and helpless, were executed, and I do not blame Australian soldiers for that at all.     There are wars, and then there are wars.     Imperial Japan started a war and it did not recognise any constraint upon it's soldiers behaviour at all.      Treating captured enemies with respect was completely contrary to their code of Bushido.     Treating captured enemy civilians with any sort of respect was similarly against their military code.     Therefore, Japanese soldiers and sailors were guilty of the most heinous war crimes against enemy civilians, including children and infants, as well as military personnel, and they kept that behaviour up from the beginning of the war that they started, until we, the allies,  finished it by wiping out a couple of their cities with nuclear weapons.

If people want to play dirty, they can't complain if the boot goes on the other foot and their enemies do to them, what they have been doing all along.    The Japanese did not like the Americans.   They did not like the Dutch.  They did not like the British or the French.     But they absolutely hated the Australians.    Why?   Because we were a white race which had established ourselves in "their" part of the world.    Had Japan invaded Australia, there is no doubt in my mind that they would have exterminated all 7 million of us.    Although, given their already well known and appreciated behaviour,, they probably would have kept the young girls as sex slaves.    My grandfather told my mother that when the Japs invaded Australia, he was going to shoot both her and her younger sister, because everybody knew what Japs did to captured women. 

I would not at all be surprised if Israeli forces executed captured Egyptian POW's during the Six Day War.      Given the already well known behaviour of Muslims towards captured populations, and given Israel's almost impossible chances of victory, and what happened to the Jews in WW2, then captured POW's of an utterly despicable enemy would not be allowed to slow up any military operations that the Israelis needed to perform so they would not as a people be exterminated, and their wives, daughters, and mothers gang raped.

The fact that you do not understand how the world works I would put down to a bad education, if you are a western spoiled brat.       You still won't tell me who or what you are so that I can get to the roots of why you hate Israel.       

 

 

Phite

@Bogan

Comparing the IDF's war crime against U.S. soldiers to the war crimes committed by others is not a defense to an Israeli war crime against the U.S.; not even if the war crime is committed by your friends. 
 

So far, your contribution here amounts to an effort to normalize atrocities by declaring that everyone does it, as if the morality of an act is determined by the number of States engaging in it.  And because you understand the weakness of that kind of reasoning, you found it necessary to chalk your failure up to me being a Muslim.  Even if I were Muslim, that doesn't change anything I've shown you.

Now, do you have anything to say about the unprovoked attack on the USS Liberty occurring at the same time that Egyptian POWs were being executed.  Think one had to do with the other? 

Bogan

Which demographic. cultural, religious, or ethic group do you belong to so that I can understand your pathological hatred of Israel?

Phite

@Bogan

Yeah, everybody gets it by now, Bogan.  If someone points out an Israeli war crime against the U.S. that went unpunished, and they defend that fact on a debate forum, they must hate Israel.

The truth is that anyone who would defend such a slaughter must hate the U.S.  Either that, or they're just in the bad habit of hating whoever Israel hates . . . in the moment.

Now, do you have anything to say about the unprovoked attack on the USS Liberty occurring at the same time that Egyptian POWs were being executed by Israelis just 13 miles from their position?  Do you think it's possible that one of those incidents had anything to do with the other?

Simple yes or no . . .

Bogan

@Phite ;    Phite quote      Yeah, everybody gets it by now, Bogan.  If someone points out an Israeli war crime against the U.S. that went unpunished, and they defend that fact on a debate forum, they must hate Israel.

 Yeah, that’s right.    Especially if that person refuses to discuss the situation in a reasonable way, and just continually implies that this incident proves that Jews are perfidious.     Which is a very Muslim way of thinking.    You are a muzzie, aren’t you?

Phite quote     The truth is that anyone who would defend such a slaughter must hate the U.S.  Either that, or they're just in the bad habit of hating whoever Israel hates . . . in the moment.

 Wrong on both counts.    I admire the USA, and I admire the Israelis.   I do not always think that the Israelis are my friends.    I have heard that they are selling military technology to both Russia and China, which if true, would diminish my respect for them.   But even in my own country, some people in power seem more interested in self-aggrandisement than in doing what is best for the whole.    I am sure that there are many Israelis who are horrified by such anti western behaviour, and they oppose it. 

 

Phite quote    Now, do you have anything to say about the unprovoked attack on the USS Liberty occurring at the same time that Egyptian POWs were being executed by Israelis just 13 miles from their position?  Do you think it's possible that one of those incidents had anything to do with the other?     Simple yes or no . . .

 Yes.    Both cases were a reflection of how desperate the Israelis were to win.    Losing to you Muslims was not an option.     The Jews knew that you Muslims would do to them, exactly what the Nazis did to them.    In WW2, the Russians executed every Waffen SS soldier they got their hands on.   Allied armies were more concerned with the Geneva Convention, but a lot of Waffen SS soldiers who surrendered to the yanks, Brits, and Canadians, neve made it back to a POW compound.   

Phite

Bogan said:

@Phite ;    Phite quote      Yeah, everybody gets it by now, Bogan.  If someone points out an Israeli war crime against the U.S. that went unpunished, and they defend that fact on a debate forum, they must hate Israel.

 Yeah, that’s right.

You don't even know when you've exposed yourself as an "anyone who points out an Israeli war crime against the U.S. hates Israel and is wrong by default" kind of guy.  Your only point here has been: If Israel did it, about it.

As far as discussing this in a reasonable way, I've absolutely proven my case that a war crime was committed against the U.S. by a foreign nation at the same time that that foreign nation's defense forces were executing Egyptian POWs 13 miles away.  In the interest of being reasonable, I also provided all necessary material and documentation to make that point in no uncertain terms.

You, on the other hand, when asked why the Israelis attacked their ally, said, "I really don't know."  That's good; that was honest.  You then suggested that the Israelis thought they couldn't trust their number-one ally and so engaged in an act of war against her.  That's good; that was honest.  But that's when your honesty takes a serious nosedive.  Despite what they did, and despite them lying about it, you react to mention of that unpunished war crime in a belligerent tone, putting forth an air of righteous indignation, hoping that that will take the focus off those who commit war crimes and onto those who debate the subject.

So yeah, it's over, Bogan.  I made my point.  We have the crime, the witnesses, and the motive.  And we have the hopeless apologists who pretend to not understand what any of that means.  

Phite

My posts to you are being deleted.  Let's try again.

You don't even know when you've exposed yourself as an "anyone who points out an Israeli war crime against the U.S. hates Israel and is wrong by default" kind of guy.  Your only point here has been: If Israel did it, don't mention it or I'll call you a Muslim.

As far as discussing this in a reasonable way, I've absolutely proven my case that a war crime was committed against the U.S. by a foreign nation at the same time that that foreign nation's defense forces were executing Egyptian POWs 13 miles away.  In the interest of being reasonable, I also provided all necessary material and documentation to make that point in no uncertain terms.

You, on the other hand, when asked why the Israelis attacked their ally, said, "I really don't know."  That's good; that was honest.  You then suggested that the Israelis thought they couldn't trust their number-one ally and so engaged in an act of war against her.  That's good; that was honest.  But that's when your honesty takes a serious nosedive.  Despite what they did, and despite them lying about it, you react to mention of that unpunished war crime in a belligerent tone, hoping that putting forth an air of righteous indignation will take the focus off those who commit war crimes and onto those who debate the subject.

Phite

You don't even know when you've exposed yourself as an "anyone who points out an Israeli war crime against the U.S. hates Israel and is wrong by default" kind of guy.  Your only point here has been: If Israel did it, forget about it or I'll call you a Muslim.

As far as discussing this in a reasonable way, I've absolutely proven my case that a war crime was committed against the U.S. by a foreign nation at the same time that that foreign nation's defense forces were executing Egyptian POWs 13 miles away.  In the interest of being reasonable, I also provided all necessary material and documentation to make that point in no uncertain terms.

You, on the other hand, when asked why the Israelis attacked their ally, said, "I really don't know."  That's good; that was honest.  You then suggested that the Israelis thought they couldn't trust their number-one ally and so engaged in an act of war against her.  That's good; that was honest.  But that's when your honesty takes a serious nosedive.  Despite what they did, and despite them lying about it, you react to mention of that unpunished war crime in a belligerent tone, hoping that putting forth an air of righteous indignation will take the focus off those who commit war crimes and onto those who debate the subject.

Bogan

@Phite

If anyone hates Israel for attacking a US warship and killing over 30 US seamen, it should be the USA itself.    Not only did the US administration not declare war, not only did they not prevent the last attack which killed most of the US servicemen, they covered it up.     As I have been trying to patiently tell you, like a teacher talking to a retarded child, this indicates to me that there was more to this incident than meets the eye.    Your "reasoning" is that of a person who can not think beyond his prejudices.    To you, this incident proves that Israel is utterly perfidious, and that is what you so desperately need to prove.     So you hang onto it like a dog with a bone and can not even comprehend that other people do not see the incident the same way that you do.

This indicates to me that you utterly despise Israel, which seems to indicate that you are brainwashed, which tends to indicate that, (despite your denials,) that you are Muslim.     You hate Israel because you have been conditioned since birth to hate Israel.      What other topics have you contributed to on this forum?    None.    This is your one and only topic and you are obsessed with it.      

  

Phite

Bogan said:

@Phite

What other topics have you contributed to on this forum?    None.

This truly is a teachable moment.  Consider what you've said there, and then consider how your research skills failed you yet again.

Back on topic:

If you have to make this about me, it means that you're mad because the facts speak for themselves, and because I won't accept your rationale as to why the Israelis should get away with their war crime against the U.S. 

In reality, my contribution to this thread is exactly proportional to your opposition to war criminals being brought to justice.  Ever wonder why I don't post unless you or someone else continues defending the war criminals?  Were you hoping that no one would rebut your ridiculous claim that the "big picture" would exonerate those who've deliberately slaughtered U.S. servicemen to keep what they did to Egyptian POWs a secret? Well someone did.  And your only answer to it all is that it's okay because . . . Israel!    

You're operating under the assumption that when you have no rebuttal to the truth that makes you angry, you can make the truth go away by accusing the guy who provided it of being obsessed.  That's called denial.  The only thing you've put on display here is your willingness to show how your misplaced affection for Israel prevents you from discussing the subject without attacking the one who provides you with the facts.  For your own reasons, you just refuse to put one and one together.  

Israelis knowingly executed U.S. military personnel after executing Egyptian POWs just 13 miles from where the USS Liberty was positioned on the same day. That the U.S. Administration did not seek justice and accepted Israel's lie about mistaken identity only indicates how dysfunctional the relationship between those two nations is.     

Bogan

@Phite

Puite quote   If you have to make this about me, it means that you're mad because the facts speak for themselves, and because I won't accept your rationale as to why the Israelis should get away with their war crime against the U.S. 

 I am an experienced debater ad I realised long ago, that particularly difficult debating opponents have no interest at all in debating a subject on it’s merits.    To them, the topic in question is just a Trojan Horse for their real intentions.    That is why it is important to glean which demographics they come from.   Debating gun control with a vegan is pointless.    Nothing you say will ever get them to concede a point, regardless of how screamingly obvious it is, because their only interest is in protecting animals.     Gun control is just an indirect way for them to achieve their goal. 

 The two main demographics today who hate Israel are Muslims, and young, spoiled brat university students.     To debate against one or the other demographic, you need different approaches.      That is why I asked you to identify your cultural, religious, or social group.    You claimed that you were not a Muslim, but refused to confirm that you were a socialist socialite.    But my experience in debating this topic previously with other opponents means that Muslims never give an inch and never concede their opponents point of view, while spoiled brats can be reasoned with.

 Your responses never gave an inch and never acknowledge the wider picture.    You are focused entirely upon these incidents, without understanding that there are other issues involved here.    That is why I think that you are a Muslim.

Phite quote     In reality, my contribution to this thread is exactly proportional to your opposition to war criminals being brought to justice. 

 Yeah, well, one man’s war criminal is another man’s freedom fighter.     I remember the Germans going apesh-it when the British put up a statue to Bomber Harris.    Who, or not is a war criminal, largely rests with who wins, or who loses.     As civilised people, western soldiers prefer to slaughter their enemies in a civilised way.    That is why we have rules of war.    But a lot depends upon circumstances, what is at stake, and who we are fighting.     If the other guy plays dirty, then if our warriors play dirty too, then we are not going to be too concerned about it.   Unless you are members of Australia's military hating and left wing ABC (Australian Broadcasting Commission).  

 

Phite quote.    You're operating under the assumption that when you have no rebuttal to the truth that makes you angry, you can make the truth go away by accusing the guy who provided it of being obsessed.  That's called denial.  The only thing you've put on display here is your willingness to show how your misplaced affection for Israel prevents you from discussing the subject without attacking the one who provides you with the facts.  For your own reasons, you just refuse to put one and one together. 

 I am not disputing the fact that Israel attacked a US warship and killed over 30 US seamen.     As to the charge of Israel killing Egyptian POW’s, I simply do not know whether that is a fact, or not?    But it may be true.    Either way, they are interesting subjects which can not be explained by using a black and white morality.    The Liberty incident was covered up by the US government and their military themselves, which makes one wonder what the yanks had to hide?     As for killing POW’s, that is normally considered reprehensible because it is counter productive.    But circumstances do arise where it can be considered a practical military necessity.    The war crimes committed by US and Australian troops in the Pacific were done because Japanese soldiers very rarely surrendered, and they routinely committed the most heinous war crimes because it was fun.     Take for example, the two Japanese officers in China, who had a competition as to who could behead 100 POW's first, with their samurai swords.     Even when badly wounded, Japanese soldiers would still try and kill you with their last breathe.   They were considered a particularly reprehensible enemy who normally would not honour the western way of war, which normally involved chivalry towards a brave but defeated enemy.

 

Phite quote

Israelis knowingly executed U.S. military personnel after executing Egyptian POWs just 13 miles from where the USS Liberty was positioned on the same day. That the U.S. Administration did not seek justice and accepted Israel's lie about mistaken identity only indicates how dysfunctional the relationship between those two nations is.     

 Which makes an intelligent person wonder, what were the yanks trying to hide?    Did the Yanks intend to sell out 2 million resource poor (except for brains) Israelis, by revealing their war dispositions to the Arabs, to curry favour with 500 million Arabs, who were sitting on most of the world’s proven oil reserves?

Phite

To recap your position, the Israelis decided that the USS Liberty's presence was inconvenient to what was going on just 13 miles away, and, figuring they could no longer trust the damn yanks to keep it quiet, went to war with them by committing an act of war against them--otherwise known as a war crime.

Where your cognitive dissonance kicks in is when it's time to call an act of war an act of war.  That's when you decide to not recognize a deliberate attack on a U.S. military vessel as an aggressive war crime, and then calling anyone who does recognize an act of war when they see one a Muslim.  When your position is shown for what it is, it's bad form to blame your failure on the nationality of the one who exposed it . . . even if they're not Muslim.

Bogan

@Phite

Phite quote     To recap your position, the Israelis decided that the USS Liberty's presence was inconvenient to what was going on just 13 miles away, and, figuring they could no longer trust the damn yanks to keep it quiet, went to war with them by committing an act of war against them--otherwise known as a war crime.

 Oh, I get it.    You are trying to link the alleged Israeli execution of Arab POW’s with the USS Liberty?     You are trying to say that the reason why the Liberty was attacked was because somehow, the Liberty might have discovered the alleged war crime?    Okay, nice theory, but I don’t know how you can prove it?    To begin with, spy ships like the Chinese spy ship now sailing up and down the Queensland coast spying on the Talisman-Sabre exercises with Australia, Japan, the US, and Germany, are almost exclusively concerned with SIGINT.     That is, signals intelligence.     Such ships want to discover the wave lengths, signal strengths, and characteristics of potential enemy radar emitters.   They also listen in on radio traffic to hoover up transmissions for analysis and code breaking.    It does not make sense that Israel would commit an act of war against the most powerful country on earth just to cover up an alleged war crime.  

 

Phite quote   Where your cognitive dissonance kicks in is when it's time to call an act of war an act of war. 

Wrong again.    The Israeli attack on the US Liberty which killed over 30 US Navy seaman was an act of war.    No doubt about it.    This is where it gets interesting.    The question then begs, why didn’t the USA automatically declare war on Israel?     Even more interesting, since the US could have, and very nearly did, prevent the final attack by Israelis PT boats which torpedoed the Liberty and killed most of the US servicemen, why did they call back the F-4 Phantoms which were on the way?

The only answer that I can think up, is that there is a lot more to this incident than meets the eye.     The yanks had something to hide, or another very good reason, to ignore an act of war which killed over 30 of their men.

Phite quote     That's when you decide to not recognize a deliberate attack on a U.S. military vessel as an aggressive war crime,…..

 You would be correct in claiming that committing an act of war without first declaring war, is a war crime.  

 

Phite quote   …..and then calling anyone who does recognize an act of war when they see one a Muslim. 

I asked you to identify your cultural, religious, or social group so that I can understand this obsession you have with hating Israel.     All you would say is that you are not a Muslim.    But your implacable hatred of Israel sure looks religious to me.    All you want to do is bang on about the Liberty, as if this proves that Israel is the font of all evil.    A brain washed spoiled brat university type would at least try and justify their hostility to Israel.    Ergo?    You are not a spoiled brat university leftist.    Ergo?   You are probably a Jew hating Muslim who does not want to admit that his hatred of Israel is just his religious instruction.

Phite quote    When your position is shown for what it is, it's bad form to blame your failure on the nationality of the one who exposed it . . . even if they're not Muslim.

 Then answer the question, who or what are you?    Because I would like to understand what causes your anti semitism?

Phite

Bogan said:

@Phite

 Oh, I get it.    You are trying to link the alleged Israeli execution of Arab POW’s with the USS Liberty?     You are trying to say that the reason why the Liberty was attacked was because somehow, the Liberty might have discovered the alleged war crime?    Okay, nice theory, but I don’t know how you can prove it?

Oh, I get it.  Because you refuse to accept the evidence that Israelis were executing Egyptian POWs on the same day they executed U.S. soldiers just 13 miles away.  Apparently, you're of the opinion that if the relationship between the U.S. and Israel is so dysfunctional that the U.S. will throw their own soldiers under the bus to protect Israel's image, then it somehow wasn't blatant murder.  That's some Israel-firster thinking there, buddy.  And that kind of thinking is based on your denial of the facts.  

Here's what that denial forces you to ignore;

This is a testimony by Mr. Gabby Bron, a famous military historian who fought in 1967. He wrote it down in the famous Israeli newspaper Yediot Ahronot in year 1995, and it caused a big reaction, as it was from the rare times the Israelis, especially those who worked in the IDF during 1967 admit that the IDF did war crimes against the Egyptian and the Arab POW. It came after the publications made by Dr. Aryeh Yitzhaki who exposed the terrible massacre done by the “Shaked Battalion” which was led by current minister Ben Eliezer.

By Gabby Bron

It was the publication of the claims, made by Dr. Aryeh Yitzhaki”1”, about what really occurred during the Six Day War [June 1967] that caused me to recall what had happened and what I and my comrades had seen during my reserve service.On the third day of that war we saw Egyptian POWs being executed after a “court martial”. The explanation given to us was that those killed were Palestinian “Fedayin” fighters from the Gaza Strip who had disguised themselves as soldiers in order to escape from our forces”. I witnessed their executions with my own eyes in the morning of June 8, 1967 in the airport area in al-Arish, Sinai. This was where the headquarters of the brigade commanded by General Israel Tal, in which I had served, were located.

On that morning we heard that hundreds of Egyptian POWs were being held in the headquarters and we had time to go to look at them. About 150 POW’s were held in an open building serving as a cover for airplanes, surrounded on three sides by high sand-bag embankments. They were densely crowded and sitting on the ground with their hands on the back of their necks.

Adjoining the prison compound, guarded by military police, there were two men sitting at a table. They wore Israeli army uniforms and steel helmets with faces almost entirely covered by sun glasses and khaki-colored handkerchiefs. Every few minutes, the military police took one of the POWs from the prison compound and escorted him to the table. A short conversation, which we were not able to hear, was then conducted. Following it, the POW was escorted by two military policemen to a place behind the building.

I followed the procedure. The POW was escorted to a distance of about 100 meters from the building and given a spade. I watched the POW digging a big pit which took about 15 minutes. Then the policemen ordered him to throw out the spade. When he did so one of them pointed his Uzi gun at the POW inside the pit and shot two short bullet bursts, consisting maybe of three four bullets each. The POW fell dead.

After few minutes another POW was escorted to the same pit, forced to go into it and was also shot dead. A third POW was brought to the same place and also shot dead. Since the process was repeated a number of times, the grave was filled up. I witnessed about ten such executions.

We were standing there, near the place where the POW’s were being held and we watched silently. The fact that a number of soldiers were watching the spectacle was apparently unwelcome because after a time Colonel Eshel, the commander of the communication battalion of the brigade, appeared and shouted at the soldiers, ordering them to leave. When we didn’t show any willingness to obey, Colonel Eshel pulled out his personal revolver and threatened us with it. Raising his voice even more, he was able to get the soldiers to obey, including me.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

To get to the bottom of your denial, let's first determine whether or not you're even willing to acknowledge the existence of the famous military historian, Gabby Bron who fought in 1967.  So, acknowledge his existence so that I know we can depend on you to be reasonable.

However, before answering, you should probably see this:

Israeli Terrorism - The USS Liberty And Executing Egyptian POWs

And here's some stuff that seems to corroborate that theory:

CNN- Mass grave may strain relations - Sept. 25, 1995

WRMEA | Telling the truth for more than 30 years - Did Israel's Armed Forces Commit One War Crime to Hide Another?

The foreign ministry is officially responsible of the POW Case in Egypt – Egyptian POWs 
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________ 

Phite

Bogan said:

@Phite

No, you don’t get it at all.    You have made an allegation that Israel committed a war crime by executing Egyptian POW’s.      So far, you have made no attempt to justify your allegation.      

You've already gone off the tracks . . . again. 

If you want a reasonable debate here, let's first establish whether or not you believe that Gabby Bron exists.  And if you do believe he exists, do you have any reason for doubting his word?  I mean, is there something you know about him that the rest of us don't?  What would you say Dr. Aryeh Yitzhaki's account--and the accounts of others--indicates about what happened to some Egyptian POWs?

Bogan

@Phite

Phite quote    Oh, I get it.  Because you refuse to accept the evidence that Israelis were executing Egyptian POWs on the same day they executed U.S. soldiers just 13 miles away. 

 No, you don’t get it at all.    You have made an allegation that Israel committed a war crime by executing Egyptian POW’s.      So far, you have made no attempt to justify your allegation.  

Phite quote   Apparently, you're of the opinion that if the relationship between the U.S. and Israel is so dysfunctional that the U.S. will throw their own soldiers under the bus to protect Israel's image, then it somehow wasn't blatant murder. 

 I am of the opinion that most of the elites who run every country could not care much about their own people, especially soldiers.    So, the elites in the US government, administration, and military, were prepared to throw their own dead seamen under a bus to either cover up their own wrongdoing or incompetence, or there were other issues involved in playing the Great Game. 

 

 Phite quote.   That's some Israel-firster thinking there, buddy.  And that kind of thinking is based on your denial of the facts.  

 What “facts” have I denied?      I have said that the Israeli military could have committed a war crime by shooting a bunch of Egyptian POW’s.    I have also explained to you that such crimes are not uncommon in front line warfare, where men really are trying to kill each other, however much armchair moralists sitting in comfortable rooms condemn it.

Phite quote.   Here's what that denial forces you to ignore;

 Okay, so several posts in from when you made your allegation that Israel executed I don’t know how many Arab men in Egyptian uniform, you have finally submitted some evidence as to your allegation.   Perhaps you should have submitted it first instead of making an allegation, then frothing at the mouth because I did not automatically believe it?

Okay, two things.    First, is that the Israelis claimed that the executed “soldiers” were in fact Palestinian insurgents who were hiding in Egyptian uniforms, which could be true.   Insurgents are not protected by the Geneva Convention.     And there may have been 150 captured men, but that does not mean that they were all executed.    The Israelis may have been sorting out the real POW’s from the terrorists.

 Second, I have previously stated something which you refuse to understand.    Chivalry towards a defeated enemy depends a lot on who that enemy is, and what their intentions are towards your people if you lose.    There was no doubt what would have happened to the Israeli population if they had lost the war.      In good old Muslim tradition, all of the Israeli males in the Israeli population would have been mass murdered, all of the women raped, with the older ones killed off and the younger ones turned into sex slaves, and all of the children forced to become Muslims.     So don’t play the cry baby with me over the Israelis shooting a bunch of Arabs, who stated intent was to completely exterminate them.     

Phite

@Bogan

See the post above your last one, Bogan.  Is there something about Gabby Bron that we should know about that would detract from anything he said?  You think Dr. Aryeh Yitzhaki didn't know that the Egyptian POWs were really Palestinians??

Bogan

@Phite ;   You've already gone off the tracks . . . again. 

I don't even know what or where your "tracks" are?      Could you please explain who and what you are so that I can understand your implacable anti semitism?    I have studied Psychology and you are an interesting case.   Did you hate your mother?  

Phite quote      If you want a reasonable debate here, let's first establish whether or not you believe that Gabby Bron exists? 

He probably does.  What has that to do with the price of potatoes?  

Phite quote     And if you do believe he exists, do you have any reason for doubting his word?

No, I would say that it sounds like a genuine first hand account.    What I take umbrage with, is with your interpretation of that account.       From what he wrote the Israelis had a large number of Egyptian army POW's but they had a separate compound for about 150 men who they suspected were Palestinian terrorists trying to escape Israeli retribution, by pretending that they were genuine POW's.     The Israelis questioned them and shot the ones they thought were terrorists.   Which I think is  great idea.    Since almost every Israeli soldier or airman who falls into the hands of Hezbollah, Black September, ISIS, or the PLO is never heard from again, then fighting fire with fire is just common sense.    As I stated previously, treating POW's decently is the norm because every soldier expects his enemy to not mistreat him if he is captured.    But when fighting an enemy who is going to kill you anyway if they capture you, then soldiers tend to do to their enemies, what they know their enemies will do to them if the tables were reversed.     Statesmen, politicians, and diplomats can moan about that all they like, but what happens on the front line the moralists will never know.  Because they will never get anywhere near the places where men kill each other in very large numbers.  

Your entire motive appears to be the compulsive need to portray Israelis as monsters who are persecuting the poor peace living Arabs.  Like, you re kidding right?    



 

MineSubCraftStarved

@Phite

 That's when you decide to not recognize a deliberate attack on a U.S. military vessel as an aggressive war crime

That's where you're wrong. It wasn't a deliberate attack, it was an accidental assault by Israeli air forces on the US Navy, mistaking it for an Egyptian ship. Both Israeli and US forces concluded that the attack was not a deliberate Israeli attack on Americans, but on a ship they thought was Egyptian:
"The CIA assessment drew heavily upon the Sigint reports referred to above. While these reports revealed some confusion on the part of the pilots concerning the nationality of the ship, they tended to rule out any thesis that the Israeli Navy and Air Force deliberately attacked a ship they knew to be American." - (Link, Pg. 72)

Bogan

@MineSubCraftStarved

Looks like we got him on the run, MSCS.