Does Praying Work?

just_sayin

Marilyn Schlitz, Ph.D., and lecturer at Harvard, says, “It's clear from the correlational studies within the epidemiology data that positive relationships exist between religious and spiritual practice and health outcomes on a variety of different conditions.” Moreover, she says that in a study and confirmation study on intercessory prayer, “the prayer groups had statistically significant improvements in outcome, suggesting that the intervention has clinical relevance.” - Fox News

There are scientifically documented accounts of healing after prayer.  Here is but one example: 

Case Report of gastroparesis healing: 16 years of a chronic syndrome resolved after proximal intercessory prayer

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Nope - Your Case Is Just Coincidence

There is no scientific evidence to suggest that proximal-intercessory-prayer (PIP) can cure a case of gastroparesis. Gastroparesis is a chronic condition that affects the stomach's ability to empty food. It is caused by damage to the nerves that control the stomach.

A study published in the journal "BMJ" in 2006 found that PIP did not have any effect on the symptoms of gastroparesis. The study looked at 120 people with gastroparesis who were randomly assigned to either a group that received PIP or a group that did not receive PIP. The study found that there was no difference in the symptoms of gastroparesis between the two groups.

Another study, published in the journal "The Lancet" in 2000, found that PIP did not have any effect on the length of time it took for people with gastroparesis to empty their stomachs. The study looked at 60 people with gastroparesis who were randomly assigned to either a group that received PIP or a group that did not receive PIP. The study found that there was no difference in the time it took for people to empty their stomachs between the two groups.

MayCaesar

You have to clarify what you mean by "work". Does praying for something to happen change something in reality that pushes it towards that something happening directly - say, does praying for the health of your kid improve your kid's fitness? No. However, an honest prayer is an intense mental and emotional activity that puts you into a particular state of mind and, similar to a guided (self-guided in this case) meditation, primes you for working towards the goal you are praying for. So when you are honestly praying for your son's health, you are essentially programming your brain and body to take your son's health seriously on one hand, and to be optimistic about it on the other, decreasing your level of stress when thinking about your son and urging you to take better care of his diet, exercise and medications. You probably also generally improve your state of mind, decreasing your general stress levels and hence improving your health, ability to mentally focus and so on - same benefits as what meditation offers.

All of this, of course, is contingent upon you genuinely believing in the power of the prayer. It cannot work for an atheist like me who does not believe in any deities. We still can derive a lot of benefits from meditation-like activities approaching them rationally (Sam Harris talks a lot about practical approaches to this), but we cannot trick our brains by feeding them with fiction. Furthermore, it appears that the more analytical the person is, the less such activities work on them. My mind is that of a stereotypical mathematician, always analyzing (over-analyzing?) everything and unable to relax and let go; physically, too, I have incredible amounts of uncontainable energy - and I have tried meditation, yoga, etc. and had virtually zero success. For me to derive similar benefits many people derive from those activities, I have to go on an hour long run, or on a 5-hour hike: as my body is working hard and my mind is busy listening to instrumental music or intellectual podcast, I get into that state of contentment and unexplainable serenity. Standing on my knees and praying to a statue would probably cause me to either fall asleep, or get up and start smashing things around me.

I do not know enough about how religious people's minds work, but I suspect that not every religious person who prays to their god does so honestly: many probably only do it because they are told to do it, hoping for some miracle, but not really putting their mind there. Such prayers probably have no effect at all, aside from the general placebo effect where a person becomes more optimistic about their future because they have been told that the god is on their side. Such a placebo effect can be obtained in many other ways not requiring one to follow a religion or other ideology, and a conversation with a decent psychologist can do much more than 100 prayer sessions.

just_sayin

@JulesKorngold

There is no scientific evidence to suggest that proximal-intercessory-prayer (PIP) can cure a case of gastroparesis. Gastroparesis is a chronic condition that affects the stomach's ability to empty food. It is caused by damage to the nerves that control the stomach.

You get that I provided you a peer review study in science direct, no less, that says just that.  You are engaged in special pleading now.

Since I'm in a good mood, I'll provide more studies that show that prayer works.

From Pub Med:

Effects of intercessory prayer on patients with rheumatoid arthritis

Results: Patients receiving in-person intercessory prayer showed significant overall improvement during 1-year follow-up. ..
Conclusions: In-person intercessory prayer may be a useful adjunct to standard medical care for certain patients with rheumatoid arthritis. 

From Sage Journals:

A Randomized Trial of the Effect of Prayer on Depression and Anxiety

Results:

At the completion of the trial, participants receiving the prayer intervention showed significant improvement of depression and anxiety, as well as increases of daily spiritual experiences and optimism compared to controls (p < 0.01 in all cases). Subjects in the prayer group maintained these significant improvements (p < 0.01 in all cases) for a duration of at least 1 month after the final prayer session. Participants in the control group did not show significant changes during the study. Cortisol levels did not differ significantly between intervention and control groups, or between pre- and post-prayer conditions.

Conclusions:

Direct contact person-to-person prayer may be useful as an adjunct to standard medical care for patients with depression and anxiety. Further research in this area is indicated.

The Effect of Prayer on Depression and Anxiety: Maintenance of Positive Influence One Year after Prayer Intervention

Results:

Evaluations post-prayer at 1 month and 1 year showed significantly less depression and anxiety, more optimism, and greater levels of spiritual experience than did the baseline (pre-prayer) measures (p < 0.01 in all cases).

Conclusions:

Subjects maintained significant improvements for a duration of at least 1 year after the final prayer session. Direct person-to-person prayer may be useful as an adjunct to standard medical care for patients with depression and anxiety. Further research in this area is indicated.

From JAMA

A Randomized, Controlled Trial of the Effects of Remote, Intercessory Prayer on Outcomes in Patients Admitted to the Coronary Care Unit

Results  Compared with the usual care group (n=524), the prayer group (n=466) had lower mean±SEM weighted (6.35±0.26 vs 7.13±0.27; P=.04) and unweighted (2.7±0.1 vs 3.0±0.1; P=.04) CCU course scores. Lengths of CCU and hospital stays were not different.

Conclusions  Remote, intercessory prayer was associated with lower CCU course scores. This result suggests that prayer may be an effective adjunct to standard medical care.

I could literally do this all day, and the next day, and the next day.  I've provided peer review studies from some of the most respected journals.  I noticed you didn't provide any links.  Just an observation.

jack

Argument Topic: Does Praying Work?

Hello Jules:

Of course it does..  It makes church's and their leaders VERY, VERY, FKN rich.

excon

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Prayer Doesn't Cure Cancer, Heart Failure, Or Strokes

• A study published in the journal "Heart" in 2005 found that PIP did not have any effect on the survival rate of people with heart failure.
• A study published in the journal "Critical Care Medicine" in 2006 found that PIP did not have any effect on the length of time it took for people to recover from a stroke.
• A study published in the journal "Annals of Internal Medicine" in 2007 found that PIP did not have any effect on the risk of death or hospitalization in people with cancer.

These studies show that PIP does not have any effect on the outcomes of people with a variety of medical conditions. 

just_sayin

@JulesKorngol

These studies show that PIP does not have any effect on the outcomes of people with a variety of medical conditions. 

Rather than go back and forth with you, where I cite a study affirming healing or the benefits of prayer from a top quality peer reviewed journal or site such as Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) and then you rebut with a vague study without a link from Critical Care Medicine, whatever that is, I thought it would be more beneficial to see where the bulk of studies on this topic come down.  In

A SYSTEMATIC REVIEW OF THE QUALITY OF RESEARCH ON HANDS-ON AND DISTANCE HEALING: CLINICAL AND LABORATORY STUDIES,

examined the quality of studies of hands-on healing and distance healing that were published between 1955 and 2001. There were 90 identified studies of which 45 had been conducted in clinical settings and 45 in laboratory settings. they reported that 71% of the clinical studies and 62% of the laboratory studies reported positive outcomes; and that the overall internal validity for the studies on distance healing was 75% for the clinical investigations and 81% for the laboratory investigations. So the bulk of studies shows prayer works.

in a Pub Med systematic review of distance prayer 

The Efficacy of “Distant Healing A Systematic Review of Randomized Trials

" Of these studies, 13 (57%) yielded statistically significant treatment effects favoring distant healing, nine showed no superiority of distant healing over control interventions and one showed a negative effect for distant healing. "

So the bulk of studies shows that prayer does work.  Further, this can generally be seen in hospitals and medical programs around the world as most have over the last 20 years incorporated spiritual aspects into their treatment programs and academic studies.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Nope

As I mentioned earlier, the evidence of the efficacy of prayer is negligible. A few studies have shown positive effects, while many others have shown no effect or even a negative effect. 

I'm praying you see the truth.

just_sayin

@JulesKorngold

As I mentioned earlier, the evidence of the efficacy of prayer is negligible. 

As I mentioned before - the majority of the evidence says prayer work.  Again, here is the quote:

There were 90 identified studies of which 45 had been conducted in clinical settings and 45 in laboratory settings. they reported that 71% of the clinical studies and 62% of the laboratory studies reported positive outcomes; and that the overall internal validity for the studies on distance healing was 75% for the clinical investigations and 81% for the laboratory investigations. So the bulk of studies shows prayer works.

JulesKorngold

@just_sayin
Distance healing is part of energy medicine practices such as Reiki, Healing Touch, Reconnective Healing, and Pranic Healing.

It is not prayer. 

Stick to the subject. 

Barnardot

@JulesKorngold ;Distance healing is part of energy medicine practices such as Reiki, Healing Touch, Reconnective Healing, and Pranic Healing. It is not prayer. 

I reckon that youll find that it is all the same thing as prayer because they are all spiritual baloney and the people who practice all that stuff make all there dum patients believe that there going to be better just like prayer.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: No, read Richard Sloan's Blind Faith.

Prayer for health benefits is pure faith healing nonsense.

https://www.skepdoc.info/christianity-can-be-hazardous-to-your-health/

just_sayin

@Dreamer


You are quoting "skepdoc" to refute peer reviewed studies in JAMA, the National Library of Medicine, and Pub-Med?  Then I accept my victory humbly and graciously now.

Again, what does the bulk of research on the topic say?  From 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12776468/'

A systematic review of the quality of research on hands-on and distance healing: clinical and laboratory studies

Results: A total of 45 laboratory and 45 clinical studies published between 1956 and 2001 met the inclusion criteria. Of the clinical studies, 31 (70.5%) reported positive outcomes as did 28 (62%) of the laboratory studies; 4 (9%) of the clinical studies reported negative outcomes as did 15 (33%) of the laboratory studies. The mean percent overall internal validity for clinical studies was 69% (65% for hands-on healing and 75% for distance healing) and for laboratory studies 82% (82% for hands-on healing and 81% for distance healing). 

90 studies from reputable journals have shown that prayer works.  That seems more convincing than whoever "skepdoc" is.  

John_C_87

Argument Topic: Does Praying work?

Yes, praying works.
Though how praying works is misunderstood. Things I do not understand about prayer, you might. Is it secure, that is when I pray will religion and / or GOD be the only one who hears my request? Will those who hear the request answer the request? Do those powers who possibly hear the request enter in competition with others to fulfill the request to reach a goal of becoming some group or some one’s religious deliverance? Direction of a prayer matters like human movements. How we direct our prayer can matter, condition of the mind as it seeks the location and cost of tranquility. Be it our own or that of others. The last thing I do not know about praying may be the most embarrassing thing to acknowledge about prayer. A person may cheat at praying and how does that relate to working outcomes of prayer.

just_sayin

@JulesKorngold

Distance healing is part of energy medicine practices such as Reiki, Healing Touch, Reconnective Healing, and Pranic Healing.

The 90 studies, that are part of the systematic review of prayers efficacy, show prayer works.  They reflect a lot of different types of prayer (link provided below for you to see).  I get that you may have your favorite type of prayer, and discount other types, but the purpose of systematic reviews is to see what the majority of research shows on the issue.  Both clinical and laboratory studies showed a strong majority of studies found positive evidence that prayer works.  And whether it is hands-on prayer or various types of prayer from a distance, the results overwhelmingly show that prayer works.  

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12776468/'

Results: A total of 45 laboratory and 45 clinical studies published between 1956 and 2001 met the inclusion criteria. Of the clinical studies, 31 (70.5%) reported positive outcomes as did 28 (62%) of the laboratory studies; 4 (9%) of the clinical studies reported negative outcomes as did 15 (33%) of the laboratory studies. The mean percent overall internal validity for clinical studies was 69% (65% for hands-on healing and 75% for distance healing) and for laboratory studies 82% (82% for hands-on healing and 81% for distance healing). 

JulesKorngold

@just_sayin

The study you cited only looked at studies that were published between 1956 and 2001. Since then, there have been a number of other studies on the efficacy of prayer in healing people. Some of these studies have found positive effects, while others have found no effect or even a negative effect.

The placebo effect is a phenomenon in which people experience a beneficial effect from a treatment that is actually ineffective. This effect is often attributed to the power of suggestion. Some people believe that prayer can have a placebo effect and that this is why some studies have shown positive effects.

just_sayin

@JulesKorngold
Wow.  While you may not believe in prayer, you certainly believe in special pleading.  Rather than show evidence that most research finds prayer unhelpful, you make the empty claim and hope nobody notices that it is a faith claim without any actual evidence.  Well, I've cited several studies (see above), and several systematic reviews of prayer studies (again see above) that show that the vast majority of studies demonstrate prayer has a positive effect on health outcomes.  

You don't have a prayer of winning this argument.  The evidence is overwhelming.  That's why most medical degree programs now encourage students to consider and incorporate spiritual dimensions in their treatment of patients.  

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Not all peer reviewed articles are high quality.

@just_sayin

SkepDoc is a great website. Part of the problem is that pseudo-science does make its way into peer reviewed journals. This is seems more common when it comes to intercessory prayer. Take a small sample size with lots of end points and via coincidence you can find a correlation that supports any view you want.

Take a bunch of low quality studies and combine them into a systematic review and suddenly you have credibility when you should not. I'd have to look at the articles in detail to be sure that is what happened. I don't have time right now.

just_sayin

@Dreamer, @JulesKorngold

SkepDoc is a great website. Part of the problem is that pseudo-science does make its way into peer reviewed journals. This is seems more common when it comes to intercessory prayer. Take a small sample size with lots of end points and via coincidence you can find a correlation that supports any view you want.
Take a bunch of low quality studies and combine them into a systematic review and suddenly you have credibility when you should not. I'd have to look at the articles in detail to be sure that is what happened. I don't have time right now.

I know it can be confusing, but there is a difference between prayer and special pleading.  They can look the same though (see image).  Creating strawmen and claiming that research that has been peer reviewed and posted in Journals such as JAMA, Springer, and Pub-Med are low quality doesn't negate that the research, both clinical and in the laboratory, has found that a strong majority of research in hands-on prayer and distance prayer works.  Now, I'm sure you can find some individual studies that found no effect for prayer, but these are in the minority.  Maybe the two of you should try to turn your special pleading into a prayer to God, if you hope to win this debate.  Just sayin.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Did you understand what I said about multiple end points and small sample size?

@just_sayin

"When a study has that many endpoints, one can expect to find a few positive correlations just by chance. That study has never been replicated." Hall

https://www.skepdoc.info/christianity-can-be-hazardous-to-your-health/

Harriett Hall is a well respected skeptic on sciencebasedmedicine with lots and lots of credible articles.

JulesKorngold

Placebo effects as in plural, there are more than one. For example changing your diet can product multiple placebo effects. Just for starters monitoring your diet more closely will tend to make a person eat healthier. As well as expected beneficial effects, feeling of well-being.

just_sayin

@Dreamer

"When a study has that many endpoints, one can expect to find a few positive correlations just by chance. That study has never been replicated." Hall
https://www.skepdoc.info/christianity-can-be-hazardous-to-your-health/
Harriett Hall is a well respected skeptic on sciencebasedmedicine with lots and lots of credible articles.

You are claiming that the vast majority of prayer studies show prayer works do so because of bad standards and placebo effects, but you haven't provided any information from any of the studies to prove that point.  If you had taken a cursory look at the systematic reviews of prayer studies (see links above that I've provided), you would have seen that they did filter the studies used.  Some were triple blind studies where not even the researcher knew who was in what group.  The results were:

Results: A total of 45 laboratory and 45 clinical studies published between 1956 and 2001 met the inclusion criteria. Of the clinical studies, 31 (70.5%) reported positive outcomes as did 28 (62%) of the laboratory studies; 4 (9%) of the clinical studies reported negative outcomes as did 15 (33%) of the laboratory studies. The mean percent overall internal validity for clinical studies was 69% (65% for hands-on healing and 75% for distance healing) and for laboratory studies 82% (82% for hands-on healing and 81% for distance healing). 

You know what the biggest difference in special pleading and prayer is ... prayer works.

21CenturyIconoclast

@just_sayin


You remain an absolute pseudo-christian where you do not know your primitive Bronze and Iron Age bible relative to the comical concept of prayer!

Individual prayer was the topic, remember? Barring the fact that the last time you actually followed the teachings of Jesus regarding prayer was probably ZERO, whereas the fact remains that the serial killer Hebrew-Christian God named Jesus already knows what you need in prayer BEFORE you ask Him! “Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” (Matthew 6:8)

You two continue to embarrass yourselves within this Religion Forum!  LOL

NEXT?

just_sayin

@21CenturyIconoclast

You remain an absolute pseudo-christian blah blah blah blah blah blah

The debate isn't about my Christian status.  I could be genuine, fake, or something in between.  The fact remains that most studies, both clinically and in the laboratory, return positive results that prayer had a measurable impact on health outcomes.  These studies have been peer reviewed and appear in trusted journals such as JAMA, Springer, and Pub-Med to name a few.  

Individual prayer was the topic, remember? blah blah blah blah

I don't see where the OP limited the type of prayer.  Are you saying that group prayer or prayer for someone else works while individual prayer doesn't?  Doesn't seem like a convincing argument to me.

You two continue to embarrass yourselves within this Religion Forum!  LOL

Two?  I'm not sure who else you are referring to.  I can have a big ego, but I've never had anyone call me 2 people before.

NEXT?

Well, typically after I mention that the majority of studies on prayer show it has positive effects that are measurable in health treatments, someone like JulesKorngold will engage in special pleading and suggest we shouldn't consider the mountain of evidence in favor of prayer, and instead should take their view instead.  Or maybe you will make some personal attack while evading the issue of the mountain of evidence that prayer works.  It really depends on who responds next.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Lies By Truncation

just_sayin said:

Results: A total of 45 laboratory and 45 clinical studies published between 1956 and 2001 met the inclusion criteria. Of the clinical studies, 31 (70.5%) reported positive outcomes as did 28 (62%) of the laboratory studies; 4 (9%) of the clinical studies reported negative outcomes as did 15 (33%) of the laboratory studies. The mean percent overall internal validity for clinical studies was 69% (65% for hands-on healing and 75% for distance healing) and for laboratory studies 82% (82% for hands-on healing and 81% for distance healing). 

What you left out from your source:  "Major methodological problems of these studies included adequacy of blinding, dropped data in laboratory studies, reliability of outcome measures, rare use of power estimations and confidence intervals, and lack of independent replication."

Try not to truncate your quotes in the interest of spreading lies.

just_sayin

@JulesKorngold

What you left out from your source:  "Major methodological problems of these studies included adequacy of blinding, dropped data in laboratory studies, reliability of outcome measures, rare use of power estimations and confidence intervals, and lack of independent replication."
Try not to truncate your quotes in the interest of spreading lies.

From the study:

Assessment of Methodological Quality

The evaluation of study quality in systematic reviews has

been extensively developed in clinical medicine, but is rarely

used in laboratory research. We were primarily interested in

determining to what extent belief and other biases were con-

trolled for in studies on healing. We therefore used a scale that

focused on internal validity called the Likelihood of Validity

Evaluation (LOVE) scale.

4

The LOVE scale was designed specifi-

cally to analyze complementary and alternative medicine (CAM)

research. Its scoring sheet for evaluating the quality of clinical

studies consists of 26 items (Checklist 1). Because of the differ-

ences between clinical and laboratory settings, the criteria

scored for the laboratory studies consisted of a modified LOVE

scale  5 of 22 items (Checklist 2).
Scores for each study were established by evaluating how

likely it was that the effects were due to the treatment. Quality

criteria included the presence of controls, randomization, com-

parability, blinding, loss of data, outcomes measurements, sta-

tistical analysis, and reproducibility. We considered the

percentage of affirmative answers as the raw score for internal

validity. To assure interrater reliability, 2 reviewers indepen-

dently evaluated a subset of studies, and their scores were com-

pared using the Kappa statistic.

SPSS 10.0 statistical software (SPSS, Chicago, Ill) was used

to analyze all data. Descriptive statistics were reported for each

interval validity criterion for all studies and compared accord-

ing to the category in which each study was placed.

RESULTS

Study Descriptions

We found 45 laboratory studies that met our inclusion cri-

teria published in 12 journals between 1956 and 2001; of these,

6 focused specifically on parapsychology. A search for random-

ized controlled clinical trials recovered a total of 45 studies pub-

lished in 35 different journals between 1965 and 2001. These 45

trials included a total of 8,455 study participants.

Study Quality

Laboratory

Quality scores for laboratory studies ranged from 73% to

95% out of a maximum of 22 quality variables, with a mean

score of 18/22 (82%). The mean quality score for hands-on-

healing in laboratory studies was 82% in a total of 25 studies,

while the mean quality score for distance-healing studies was

81% in a total of 20 studies. These 2 interventions scored sim-

ilarly according to overall internal validity quality.

...This review has a number of limitations. We restricted our

review to randomized controlled group studies. This made the

overall quality of these studies high and perhaps not reflective of

the overall wide range of the literature. A

...Conclusion

Healing techniques have been practiced worldwide since

the origin of human culture. Research on these practices is still

in the beginning stages and needs to be expanded. Standard

definitions of the healing techniques are needed, and quality

should be improved. The current body of research on healing

shows that studies of distance healing have higher quality than

hands-on healing, and laboratory studies are better conducted

than clinical studies in terms of comparability, blinding, relia-

bility, sensitivity, confidence intervals, outcome measures, and

replication.

It seems to me, you didn't want to read beyond the one quote.  You tried to dismiss a whole body of research out of hand.  There is a break down of each studies ascribed strengths and weaknesses in the report.  I'll note just a few points.  1) The study excluded any study that did not meet its threshold of quality to begin with.  2) While the individual quality of reports varied, with laboratory studies doing better than clinical studies,  the author said "this made the overall quality of these studies high".  So again, I restate my point, the vast majority of the best studies on prayer shows it works.  

@JulesKorngold :  Lord, please help me to win this debate about prayer not working. Amen.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Flawed Studies

@just_sayin
Blah, blah, blah.  Your own source says the studies were seriously flawed.  I pray you come to your senses and accept that fact.

21CenturyIconoclast

@just_sayin

Why do you keep RUNNING AWAY from the biblical axiom that your serial killer Jesus, as God, already knows what you want or need, therefore prayer is moot, GET IT?!
Are you that SCARED to address this biblical FACT? Huh?

"Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” (Matthew 6:8)

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Nice catch about the dropped data and other major flaws.

@JulesKorngold

"Major methodological problems of these studies included adequacy of blinding, dropped data in laboratory studies, reliability of outcome measures, rare use of power estimations and confidence intervals, and lack of independent replication."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12776468/

Lack of independent replication has me convinced that intercessory prayer is quackery.

For more info on the subject I recommend the highly credible quackwatch.

"Intercessory prayer studies accomplish nothing. “Believers” won’t change their view if further studies are negative, and nonbelievers won’t change theirs if additional studies appear positive. Prayer may help some people feel reassured when they are worried, but to me it makes more sense to spend one’s time and energy on more constructive health-promoting activities. Although luck is still a significant factor, I think it is more sensible to believe that health is more likely to be influenced by prudent living than by magical thinking. Also, if praying for people worked, would strangers praying against them cause them to become sicker? Or, as one of my religious friends put it, “Is God is so that he or she would respond to popularity contests?”"

https://quackwatch.org/related/faith/

Watch the video religion can be hazardous to your health.

In fact, I find this entire line of reasoning to be dangerous.

"Christian Scientists believe that sickness and death are illusions caused by mistaken beliefs, that prayer can correct those wrong beliefs, and that the entire material world is an illusion. Many Christian Science adults and children have died of treatable illnesses, leading to more than 50 prosecutions for manslaughter or murder. There have been several outbreaks of vaccine-preventable deaths in Christian Science schools and camps. Several studies have shown that Christian Scientists have a shorter than average life expectancy."

https://www.skepdoc.info/does-religion-make-people-healthier/

just_sayin

@21CenturyIconoclast

Why do you keep RUNNING AWAY from the biblical axiom that your serial killer Jesus, as God, already knows what you want or need, therefore prayer is moot, GET IT?!
Are you that SCARED to address this biblical FACT? Huh?
"Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” (Matthew 6:8)

You really aren't familiar with the Bible are you?  If you did you would know that the very next chapter tells us that God gives good gifts to those who ask Him:

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! = Matthew 7:7-11

The passage you reference, Matthew 6:8, deals with not making a show of your spirituality as if you are better than others.  Here is the passage:

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9 “This, then, is how you should pray:
“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
    on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
    as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
    but deliver us from the evil one.
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. - Matthew 6:5-14

just_sayin

@Dreamer

Lack of independent replication has me convinced that intercessory prayer is quackery.

Wow, once again you have taken the anti-science position.  You have rejected the fact that the vast majority of prayer studies shows it works.  Further, you have rejected the fact that the studies with the best methods, have shown overwhelmingly that prayer works.  

I do want to contend with you on something that should be obvious.  Prayer is a supernatural event, not a natural one.  It doesn't follow the laws of nature..  Why would you expect to get independent replication?  I'm the religious one, but I don't think God has to answer every prayer with the answer the requester wants, and I'm quite glad that he doesn't.  I'm sure many a hate filled leftist has prayed for the deaths of conservatives.  I'm glad God didn't answer their prayers the way they wanted.

The fact that the vast majority of studies show that prayer has a positive outcome on health results is only disputed by those whose personal bias allows them to overlook the lopsided results of prayer studies.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: What do the studies with the best methods say?

" Further, you have rejected the fact that the studies with the best methods, have shown overwhelmingly that prayer works.  " JustSayin

Is this true?

just_sayin

@Dreamer
As I keep pointing out the bulk of scientific research on prayer suggests it has positive benefits to health outcomes.  See Fox News: 

Marilyn Schlitz, Ph.D., and lecturer at Harvard, says, “It's clear from the correlational studies within the epidemiology data that positive relationships exist between religious and spiritual practice and health outcomes on a variety of different conditions.” Moreover, she says that in a study and confirmation study on intercessory prayer, “the prayer groups had statistically significant improvements in outcome, suggesting that the intervention has clinical relevance.”

Researchers at the Heritage Foundation said, “We have a logical reason why religion might influence physical health through mental health, through enhancing social support, through influencing health behaviors, all affecting physical health outcomes.” So, at the very least, prayer is beneficial. It works. In fact, “Today, 101 medical schools incorporate patient spirituality in their curriculum, up from 17 in 1995. This fact suggests that these principles are being incorporated into medical education…”

While some of the 1,200 studies done on the effects of prayer on health have found no benefit, the majority have.  Since prayer is a very subjective and supernatural thing, it is hard to quantify or replicate some studies - I freely admit that.  But the bulk of evidence shows that prayer works.  Here's what else those 1200 health studies show:

• Hospitalized people who never attended church have an average stay that is three times longer than people who attended regularly.
• Heart patients were 14 times more likely to die following surgery if they did not participate in a religion.
• Elderly people who never or rarely attended church had a stroke rate double that of people who attended regularly.
• In Israel, religious people had a 40% lower death rate from cardiovascular disease and cancer.

(Above statistics from Just say Om in Time Magazine, August 4, 2003 Vol. 162 No. 5.;  Is Religion Good for  Your Health, Harold Koenig, 1997.; Can Prayer Heal? Jeanie Lerche Davis on WebMD.com; Observations on Prayer as a Viable Treatment Intervention: A Brief Review for Healthcare Providers by Matthew R. Kutz, PhD, M.Ed., ATC. Palm Beach Atlantic University, West Palm Beach, FL)

21CenturyIconoclast

@just_sayin

just-sayin your bible dumb,

YOUR QUOTE SHOWING THE BIBLE CONTRADICTS ITSELF: "You really aren't familiar with the Bible are you?  If you did you would know that the very next chapter tells us that God gives good gifts to those who ask Him:"

Your admittance quote above shows that it blatantly contradicts with my passage in question herewith: "Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” (Matthew 6:8).  .......  HELLO, anybody home today, NOT!

.
Then you have the audacity to present Matthew 6:5-14 to make you the greater Bible fool, whereas, when was the last time you actually followed the brutal serial killer Jesus' words and ONLY prayed in your room after closing the door?  Huh?  Furthermore, Matthew 6:5:14 is a complete CONTRADICTION because it says in part "Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." and at the same time, it says: "Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.”  GET IT BIBLE DUMMY?

Then, when praying, Jesus ONLY wants you to say the "Lord's Prayer" in this direct passage: "This, then, is how you should pray (Matthew 6:9):" Question, when was the last time you actually followed this biblical edict?  NOT!

AGAIN, are you to SCARED to address this post that you are still running away from? https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/166344/#Comment_166344


Your outright Bible stupidity is noted once again at your continued embarrassment in front of the membership! 


NEXT?

just_sayin

@21CenturyIconoclast
Your admittance quote above shows that it blatantly contradicts with my passage in question herewith: "Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” (Matthew 6:8).  .......  HELLO, anybody home today, NOT!

Then you have the audacity to present Matthew 6:5-14 to make you the greater Bible fool, whereas, when was the last time you actually followed the brutal serial killer Jesus' words and ONLY prayed in your room after closing the door?  Huh?  Furthermore, Matthew 6:5:14 is a complete CONTRADICTION because it says in part "Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." and at the same time, it says: "Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.”  GET IT BIBLE DUMMY?

Well, it is possible you could be right.  However, since Jesus teaches people how to pray right after that a prayer that is 'plural' suggesting it is done with other people, and then Matthew identifies other situations where the disciples prayed with Jesus, such as the garden, it is possible that Matthew, Jesus, and the other disciples are right about prayer and you are wrong in your interpretation.  Ocam's razor suggests the simplest explanation is preferable to one that is more complex.  That would suggest your view, which nobody but you believes is more likely wrong.  

21CenturyIconoclast

@just_sayin

YOUR QUOTE IN ADMITTING THAT I AM CORRECT RELATIVE TO THE TOPICS OF PRAYER: "Well, it is possible you could be right."

You can throw away your occums razor bit of simplicity that you have to follow because your bible ineptness will not let you dig deeper, of which you obviously cannot do, that explicitly proves my point.

You are nothing but a bible ignorant and laughable pseudo-christian that does not know their behind from a wild grape when it comes to the direct biblical axioms of your primitive Bronze and Iron Age Bible!  


NEXT BIBLE IGNORANT FOOL LIKE "JUST_SAYIN" THAT RUNS AWAY FROM BIBLICAL AXIOMS WILL BE ...?


.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Using Fox News as a source seriously?

@just_sayin

At this point you are acting like a caricature. I am sorry I should probably be more respectful. 

"So many people who love the Lord, who give their time and money to the poor and the mourning and the persecuted, have been reduced to a caricature. But I understand why. Evangelicals—including my own father—became compulsively political, allowing specific ethical arguments to snowball into full-blown partisan advocacy, often in ways that distracted from their mission of evangelizing for Christ." Tim Alberta May 2022

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/06/evangelical-church-pastors-political-radicalization/629631/

Yet, when a person uses Fox News as a source I have to draw the line somewhere. Using Fox News in 2016 was understandable, but now days it is common knowledge that Fox News is a questionable source.

"Questionable Reasoning: Conspiracy Theories, Pseudoscience, Propaganda, Poor Sources, Numerous Failed Fact Checks"

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/fox-news-bias/

I am done giving you the benefit of the doubt. My patience has ended. I now see you as a troll and will treat you accordingly.

Take the last statement for example, religious people had 40% less, how is that even quantified? By how often they attend services? This ignores private readings. People who never attended church may have mobility disabilities that prevent them from entering church.

I'll give a testimonial. I used to go to church and the parking lot was in disrepair. This made it more difficult for people with disabilities to attend church. It is reasonable that people with disabilities live shorter lives regardless of church attendance. 

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency

So are you from Russia or is your church a tent with armed people?

just_sayin

@Dreamer

At this point you are acting like a caricature. I am sorry I should probably be more respectful. 
"So many people who love the Lord, who give their time and money to the poor and the mourning and the persecuted, have been reduced to a caricature. But I understand why. Evangelicals—including my own father—became compulsively political, allowing specific ethical arguments to snowball into full-blown partisan advocacy, often in ways that distracted from their mission of evangelizing for Christ." Tim Alberta May 2022
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/06/evangelical-church-pastors-political-radicalization/629631/
Yet, when a person uses Fox News as a source I have to draw the line somewhere. Using Fox News in 2016 was understandable, but now days it is common knowledge that Fox News is a questionable source.
"Questionable Reasoning: Conspiracy Theories, Pseudoscience, Propaganda, Poor Sources, Numerous Failed Fact Checks"
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/fox-news-bias/
I am done giving you the benefit of the doubt. My patience has ended. I now see you as a troll and will treat you accordingly.

I assume you are suggesting that Fox News made up the quote from Marilyn Schlitz regarding the efficacy of prayer.  From the National Library of Medicine's website:

In the recent National Center of Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) survey study I mentioned, a significantly high percentage of the population makes use of prayer for other people. Many people believe that if I pray for you, you will become better, or if you pray for me I'll become better, and yet we know very little of the mechanism to explain how this might happen. So this is a frontier area for research. To date, more than 180 studies have been done in this area, with more than half of them producing significant results. In these experiments, one person through their intention tries to influence the physiology or the physical condition of a target system, such as cell cultures, animal models, and there are human studies. As of March 2004, there have been nine controlled clinical trials looking at intercessory prayer (compassionate intention at a distance). Six of these have produced statistically significant positive results. For a complete list of these studies, one can visit the distant healing research site at the Institute of Noetic Sciences Web site (www.noetic.org). - Marilyn Schlitz, Meditation, Prayer and Spiritual Healing: The Evidence

So you think the Stanford and Harvard professor isn't qualified to make these kinds of statements?  I'm confused.  Did you engage in confirmation bias and dismiss the Fox News quote out of hand because it came from Fox?  Should I have taken a quote of hers from CNN, where she is sometimes a guest correspondent, and used that instead?  You focused on the quote appearing in Fox News rather than the validity of the quote.  While I provided you more evidence of prayer working by one of the most respected researchers in the field.  

I am done giving you the benefit of the doubt. My patience has ended. I now see you as a troll and will treat you accordingly.

Really??  I am the one providing evidence of prayer working.  Instead of addressing the evidence that I put forth you attacked Fox News.  Which of us is more trollish?  I don't think its me.

21CenturyIconoclast

@Dreamer

As you are aware by now, "just_sayin" is one of the most Bible and ignorant of any pseudo-christian upon this Religion Forum.  If prayer really worked, "just_sayin" could pray to her serial killer god Jesus to make us outright christians post haste to prove that prayer works, where we would have to tell her we've been enlightened now to the christian faith because of her prayers!

But, guess what?  "just_sayin" will not take the chance for any type of prayer like described above, because "just_sayin" is to SCARED to initiate such a prayer because of the protocols of said prayer as shown below:

Jesus stated; “And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.” (Matthew 21:22) 

Key word: “believing,” which triggers the prayer in a direct and absolute manner in receiving your prayer request. Therefore, the unfortunate position is that if "just_sayins" prayer in making us Christians doesn't work, then they didn't believe enough, and that will hang over "just_sayin" for the rest of their life!  A Catch-22 to say the least.  

.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Great point about Mathew 21:22

@21CenturyIconoclast

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 21:22&amp;version=KJV

I guess Christians just don't believe in God enough to convert all the atheists, agnostics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc.

21CenturyIconoclast

@Dreamer

Dreamer,

YOUR QUOTE REGARDING MATTHEW 21:22: "I guess Christians just don't believe in God enough to convert all the atheists, agnostics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. "

Yes, dumbfounded pseudo-christians like "just_sayin and the ever so Bible ignorant ProudtobeCatholic" turn themselves into pretzels in trying so hard  to reinterpret the embarrassing and direct words of their serial killer god named Jesus!


Lest we forget when Jesus' direct words, and without any REINTERPRETATION, said the following:

JESUS AS GOD SAID: “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?  For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.  (Matthew 15: 3-4). When was the last time a bible inept pseudo-christian parent actually followed this godly edict if it happened to them?  LOL!

We will continue to easily own their primitive Bronze and Iron Age faith at their continued expense!

.

just_sayin

@Dreamer
Happy is the one who seizes your infants
    and dashes them against the rocks. - Psalms 137:9 

Remind me,  who did you accuse of trolling?  

How does this Bible verse advance the argument that prayer does or does not work?  More on that in a moment.  Let me speak but a brief moment on the verse in question.  It is part of an imprecatory psalm after Babylon has invaded and taken over the nation of Israel.  It is a cry to God for revenge against Israel's enemies who have killed them, destroyed their cities, and taken their families captive.  The verse in question is part of a request for God to bring about revenge on all of their enemies, or bring justice depending on your perspective.  It is not meant to be considered literal, it is a song after all and similar to the vernacular of many cultures of the day that were not meant to be understood literally..  If this debate were about that, I'd provide you half a dozen examples from both Jewish literature of the day, and a dozen from the surrounding nations/tribes that make similar calls but aren't really calling for children to be dashed on rocks.

But this debate is about how prayer works.  I think it is very telling that so many of the posts made have avoided dealing with the evidence of scientific journals acknowledging that prayer works.  Here are a few more examples of miraculous prayers being answered and verified by scientific review I'd like to add to the discussion such as this miracle of healing from blindness by prayer, in Science Direct:

Case report of instantaneous resolution of juvenile macular degeneration blindness after proximal intercessory prayer

Or a case of miraculous stomach healing after prayer, printed in Science Direct:

Case Report of gastroparesis healing: 16 years of a chronic syndrome resolved after proximal intercessory prayer

There is evidence of healings of eyesight and hearing following prayer (see Southern Medical Journal):

Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Proximal Intercessory Prayer (STEPP) on Auditory and Visual Impairments in Rural Mozambiqu

Now science denying atheists will claim we should deny science and instead have faith that God doesn't answer prayer.  But if even 1 case of a miracle is documented, then the debate about prayer is over and God wins.

just_sayin

Argument Topic: 200 million witnesses to healings and Miracles


I came across this and thought it provided evidence of prayer working.  Pew Research center did a survey of 10 nations - specifically of Pentecostal and Charismatic believers and asked how many had personally seen someone healed or a miracle occur.  If you do the math on just these 10 countries and the respondents answers - that equates to 200 million eye witnesses to healings or miracles just among Pentecostal/Charismatic believers in these 10 countries.

While I am sure that some of the accounts are inaccurate, it would be hard for anyone to dismiss out of hand all 200 million eye witnesses to answered prayer.

Spirit and Power – A 10-Country Survey of Pentecostals - Pew Research Center

So to recap - there are hundreds of millions of eye witnesses of answered prayer and miracles.  There are document examples of miracles.  The bulk of prayer studies shows that prayer works.  If this were a MMA fight, it would be stopped because those denying prayer works are being pummeled so badly. 

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Irrelevant, anecdotal and testimonial evidence are useful for forming hypothesis only.

@just_sayin

Could be two billion and it wouldn't matter. Humans are full of many many biases one of which is Pareidolia that better explain these miracles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia

"Stephen Barrett, M.D.
October 18, 2000

If you hear that an “alternative” method has produced “miraculous” recoveries from cancer, you should be skeptical. There are at least five reasons why such a report may be erroneous:

• The patient never had cancer
• The cancer was cured or put into remission by proven therapy, but questionable therapy was also used and erroneously credited for the beneficial result.
• The cancer is progressing but is erroneously represented as slowed or cured.
• The patient represented as cured may have died as a result of the cancer or been lost to follow-up.
• The patient had a spontaneous remission (very rare) or slow-growing cancer that was publicized as a cure."

https://quackwatch.org/related/Cancer/miracles/

"After nearly twenty years of work I have yet to find one ‘miracle cure’; and without that (or, alternatively, massive statistics which others must provide) I cannot be convinced of the efficacy of what is commonly termed faith healing.” [1]"

https://quackwatch.org/related/faith/

There are many grifters who will use miracles for profit. Be-careful, I am concerned for you.

just_sayin

@Dreamer
Could be two billion and it wouldn't matter. 

The comment indicates someone who is not only closed minded but intellectually dishonest.  To dismiss 200 million accounts out of hand seems like a lot of eye witnesses to just assume must be lying because they don't share your view.  Now, its OK to be skeptical, but to dismiss eye witnesses without hearing them at all, doesn't seem like you really support scientific inquiry, but have retreated to a defensive position.  

To the overwhelming pile of evidence I have presented, and which you have fled running and screaming from, I would like to add this one account:

Delia Knox was paralyzed from the waist down with no feeling or function in her legs in 1987 when a drunk driver hit the car she was in and flipped it.  The car crash was reported on the news the following day on the local tv news channel.  For 22 1/2 years she was confined to a wheel chair and could not walk (There are lots of video of her at her wedding and of her singing in her church for those 22 years while in the wheel chair).  The doctors told her she would never walk again, and confirmed that she was paralyzed from the waist down.  

She went to the Bay of the Holy Sprit Revival service in 2010.  She was prayed for and felt her hands touch her legs for the first time in 22 1/2 years.  With help, she began to walk around the church.  She moved her legs by her own power. Her legs were atrophied and she needed assistance to remain upright that night.  A few weeks later she returned to the same church revival and lead the church in worship while walking back and forth across the stage under her own power without assistance.  And just so you will know the story is true there are several youtube clips of it (feel free to go and look up her story for yourself)  But here is one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNg7GWnXV_c

The first part is the altar service where she was prayed for and starts walking with help, you can then fast forward and watch her walk on stage at the same church a few weeks later under her own power and lead in worship.

And how will you dismiss what your eyes have seen?

Dreamer

Argument Topic: I will watch the video if it is not too long. Your last video was over 2hrs with Sam Harris.

@just_sayin

"Another woman with cancer of the spine had discarded her brace and followed Ms. Kuhlman’s enthusiastic command to run across the stage. The following day her backbone collapsed, and four months later she died." Quackwatch

"“Healers” who use trickery to raise large sums of money should be prosecuted for grand larceny." Quackwatch

https://quackwatch.org/related/faith/

Did you watch the Marjoe Gortner? There are more videos.

Your ad hominem on me being supposedly closed minded and intellectual dishonest is a distraction try addressing my arguments instead.

just_sayin

@Dreamer
Your ad hominem on me being supposedly closed minded and intellectual dishonest is a distraction try addressing my arguments instead.

You are the one who claimed it wouldn't matter to you if 2 billion people were eyewitnesses to healings and miracles, you would not believe them.  That does not sound like an open minded person.

Now I am sure that some healings and miracles are not what they purport to be.  However, their fakeness does not mean that real healings and miracles are fake.  Again, I'll point out that there is a lot of mounting evidence that prayer works - eye witnesses (hundreds of millions of them), documented healings and miracles, and the bulk of prayer studies - all are evidence for prayer working.  

By the way, you don't need to watch the whole video link I sent, start with her confined to her wheel chair and being prayed for and then jump to over half way through where you walks out on stage and leads worship at the revival.  

Dreamer

Argument Topic: How would you tell real from fake miracles?

@just_sayin

After-all, there are mental disorders where people fake disease.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factitious_disorder_imposed_on_self

 This is far more likely that God existing the ultimate Boeing 747.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Boeing_747_gambit

22 and a half years is a long time to fake being crippled, but it is possible. Religious extremists have done more absurd actions like stave their own children to death because the child refused to pray to God. Religious terror attacks including anti-choice activists.

"November 27, 2015: A shooting at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, Colorado, left three dead and several injured, and a suspect Robert L. Dear was apprehended."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

There is also the power of suggestion, placebo effects. Maybe the body really did heal after all those years and she was finally ready to walk and just needed a nudge. There is Breathariasm also know as Inedia and people don't watch the person who has claimed to fasted for decades. The simply answer is the person simply lied, ate, and drank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inedia

Dee

@just_sayin

Post up her medical records? Bet you cannot , why do you think that is?

Dee

@just_sayin

** The doctors told her she would never walk again, and confirmed that she was paralyzed from the waist down.**

Post up the doctors names and their medical reports, bet you cannot.

just_sayin

@Dee
Post up her medical records? Bet you cannot , why do you think that is?

For the record, her doctor's have corroborated her testimony - see Miracles Today, by Craig Keener.  No doubt this game would continue on if her medical records were posted all over the internet.  You would then find another desperate and pathetic excuse to cling to your faith belief that she wasn't healed. I say that because you already have done that.   I have provided multiple examples of medical journals where the specific details from medical records are provided and you clung to your faith claim that there are no miracles (proving my point).  See:

Case report of instantaneous resolution of juvenile macular degeneration blindness after proximal intercessory prayer

and

Case Report of gastroparesis healing: 16 years of a chronic syndrome resolved after proximal intercessory prayer

as examples.

Go ahead tell me why I should deny the doctor's testimony, numerous eye witnesses, video, pictures, news reports, etc and instead accept your faith claim which has no evidence, but lots of accusations?  Let the spin class begin.


Come join Atheist Spin Class - Where we are always Spinning Overwhelming Evidence of Miracles so We Can Pretend They Don't Exist.  New Class opening soon!