What do we do with MAGA?

ZeusAres42

Argument Topic: Finding Common Ground with MAGA Supporters: Our Route to Unity

America's political scene is like a bustling, noisy family dinner, with every voice clamoring to be heard. One voice that's been particularly loud and clear in recent times belongs to the MAGA movement. So, how do we make sense of this? How do we come together, even if we're sitting at opposite ends of the table? Perhaps the answer is simpler than we think: just talk.

Imagine this: instead of switching channels or closing browsers when MAGA views appear, we pause and listen. Not because we'll always agree – far from it. But because listening is the first step to understanding. Real conversations aren’t about changing someone’s mind on the spot. They’re about acknowledging that every perspective has a story behind it. And often, when we take a moment to hear that story, we see beyond the political slogans and catch a glimpse of real fears, hopes, and dreams.

A lot of MAGA supporters are worried about their jobs, their communities, and the world they're handing down to their kids. If we start our conversations there, on shared concerns, then we're no longer talking at each other, but with each other. And guess what? Change often starts with a simple chat over a backyard fence or at a local cafe.

Of course, it's not all smooth sailing. We live in an age where information (and misinformation) is just a click away. This means we all need to be a bit more savvy about where we get our news and facts from. It's easy to get trapped in our own echo chambers, only hearing what we want to. But, if we genuinely want to understand each other, we’ve got to be ready to challenge our own beliefs and biases every once in a while.

The MAGA movement, like any other, isn’t just one giant monolithic entity. It's a diverse group with many voices. Yes, navigating through these voices can be messy and sometimes frustrating. But finding common ground, even if it’s just a tiny patch, can make all the difference.

So, where does this leave us? If we truly want a united America, we can't just hope for it. We've got to work for it. By reaching out, listening, and finding those patches of common ground, we can weave a story that includes all of us. After all, America has always been about coming together, even when it seems impossible. Why should now be any different?

Dreamer

Argument Topic: MAGA is not diverse anymore.

@ZeusAres42

MAGA started out diverse but something about Trump and cognitive dissonance theory made them monolithic according to Mistakes were Made but not by me. I think your ideas would have worked great in summer of 2016. Yet, once a person cast a ballot, cognitive dissonance kicks in and they become monolithic.

You can see this in horse-track racing, before a decision is made the soon to be betters are open minded. Yet, as soon as that non-refundable bet is made self-justification kicks in and everything changes.

ZeusAres42

@Dreamer

Thanks for your viewpoint. 

I recognize the relevance of cognitive dissonance and its effects on our decision-making processes. However, I'd argue that it's too broad a brush to paint the entire MAGA movement as monolithic based on this single psychological framework.

Firstly, every political or social movement, MAGA included, consists of a rich tapestry of individuals with varied opinions, backgrounds, and motivations. To suggest that everyone affiliated with MAGA shares uniform beliefs reduces the varied and diverse perspectives that exist within. Some supporters might align with the movement for economic reasons, others due to societal concerns, and still others for entirely different motivations.

Your comparison with horse-track betting is intriguing. But political choices differ significantly from placing a bet on a race, especially something as impactful as voting. Voting decisions draw from a well of personal experiences, historical influences, and policy perspectives. Placing the two in the same category might not do justice to the depth of consideration behind electoral choices.

Furthermore, the emphasis on seeking unity and understanding, as presented in the previous excerpt, underscores the importance of dialogue. Even if certain MAGA supporters have strengthened their stances, it doesn't diminish the importance or potential impact of open conversations. Finding common ground and fostering mutual respect can result from these interactions, regardless of their timing in relation to significant decisions.

Moreover, it's worth noting that individuals grow and adapt, shifting their views based on new insights, personal experiences, or changing circumstances. To label an entire group based on a perceived uniformity in belief does not account for this fluidity and adaptability.

In sum, while the concept of cognitive dissonance offers a valuable perspective on decision-making, it might not provide a comprehensive picture of the varied and evolving views within the MAGA movement.

just_sayin

@ZeusAres42, @Dreamer

I think that tribalism is rampant among MAGA.  I think it is equally rampant among leftists.  It drives me crazy that MAGA will excuse some of Trump's conduct because he's on their side.  It irritates me just as much to watch Biden supporters excuse his lies and unethical conduct also.  Just yesterday he told his 20th documented lie about his house fire story.  That's 20 documented lies over just that one event since 2020.  The media is mostly silent.  Biden lied about his involvement with Hunter's business dealings, yet the media have been mostly silent.  They have aligned with 'their guy'.  You and I both know that if the situation were reversed and were about Trump the coverage would be much different.  

Both parties have demanded unconditional loyalty to their party.  McCain, Romney and Cheney were very prominent in the Republican party, with 2 of them being the presidential nominees for the party.  Now their legacy is tarnished among Republicans because they spoke out against Trump.  As bad as that is, the left has been worse.  Joe Lieberman, the vice-presidential candidate for the Democrat party was essentially voted out of the party for being 'too moderate' and to 'pro-Israel'.   Joe Manchin is on the verge of leaving the Democrat party because his party spends more time attacking him than the Republican party does.  

Recently a state Democrat had to switch parties and become a Republican because she supported school choice.  68% of Democrats support school choice.  85% of Black parents support school choice, but you can't take that position and expect Democratic party support.  The power of teacher's unions and of tribalism is too great to differ on that issue.  Did you know that pro-life Democrats have not been allowed to speak at the past 3 Democrat party national conventions?  Prominent pro-abortion Republicans such as Rudy Giuliani and Christine Todd Whitman have had prominent speeches at the RNC conventions.  So, the extremism does seem to be tilted more toward the Democrats.

You can see that tribalism in the recent Supreme Court decisions.  When the racist policy of Affirmative Action in college admissions was struct down, there was not repentence from Democrats over the students that these policies had harmed.  Instead, we saw Democrats double down on their support of racism.  The focus seemed to be how they could continue to discriminate but be more covert about it.  There have been numerous fearmongering stories about how ending discriminatory Affirmative Action policies in hiring and promotions will harm America.  Democrats have truly doubled down on their racism, and you don't hear voices who oppose this form of racism speaking out in that party.

I do hear people speaking out against Trump from the Republican party.  That's not to say they have the influence to keep him from winning the nomination.  But I do think that it is interesting that more Republicans have spoken out against Trump and his actions than Democrats have spoken out against either Biden's unethical business dealings or their support of racist Affirmative Action policies.

jack

just_sayin said:

It irritates me just as much to watch Biden supporters excuse his lies and unethical conduct also. 

Hello j:

Like MAGA loves Trump, Biden supporters love Biden.  But, there's plenty of libs like me, who don't..  

excon

just_sayin

@jack

Hello j:

Like MAGA loves Trump, Biden supporters love Biden.  But, there's plenty of libs like me, who don't..  

excon

To me, Trump is the Republican candidate I least support.  For many, he is their favorite because he is combative.  I think Trump is the least Republican of the candidates, and that includes Christie.  

I don't think the media necessarily 'like' Joe Biden, but they will protect him, as their actions have shown when they lied and said that Hunter Biden's laptop was a Russian hoax.

ZeusAres42

@just_sayin

Your observations provide an interesting lens on the state of American politics, emphasizing the evident tribalism in both major parties. Let's delve into some key components of your argument.

Regarding the claims of documented lies for both Trump and Biden, it's essential to question the origin of this documentation. Are these allegations stemming from unbiased sources? Fact-checking has been paramount in the assessment of both leaders, and while there is evident bias in some media outlets, taking a comprehensive view of multiple sources can offer a more rounded perspective. Moreover, the gravity and implications of each lie might differ, affecting public perception differently.

Likewise, when discussing party figures like McCain, Romney, Cheney, Lieberman, and Manchin, who have been criticized for differing from their party's dominant views, it's crucial to highlight that the root of their criticism varies. In the context of the Democrats you mentioned, it appears they're chastised for leaning too conservative, contrasting with the GOP's criticism often rooted in loyalty to an individual rather than policy beliefs.

Regarding the topic of school choice, undeniably divisive within the Democratic Party, brings forth another dimension. Suggesting a state Democrat's shift to the Republican Party was solely due to this issue might overlook other political undercurrents, including local dynamics and broader policy concerns.

Beyond that, affirmative Action's portrayal as inherently racist raises eyebrows. It's vital to remember that this policy emerged as a countermeasure to historic racial and ethnic discrimination. The debates over its effectiveness and ethical implications are legitimate. However, labeling it simply as "racist" sidesteps the deeper discussion about systemic disparities and potential remedies.

Finally, the nature of dissent within the parties varies. While the Republican Party has seen criticism of Trump, the Democratic side is not without its internal debates. However, the Republican dissenters often encounter significant pushback, despite their long-standing affiliations. On the other hand, debates within the Democratic Party tend to be more policy-oriented than loyalty-driven.

In wrapping up, tribalism's presence in both major U.S. parties is undeniable. However, the reasons, implications, and dynamics of this tribalism might not be as straightforward as they appear at first glance. It's vital to delve deeper into these dynamics to understand the broader contexts and underlying motivations.

just_sayin

@ZeusAres42
Beyond that, affirmative Action's portrayal as inherently racist raises eyebrows. It's vital to remember that this policy emerged as a countermeasure to historic racial and ethnic discrimination. The debates over its effectiveness and ethical implications are legitimate. However, labeling it simply as "racist" sidesteps the deeper discussion about systemic disparities and potential remedies.

I don't want to derail the overall debate because I do believe there are a lot of issues with MAGA Republicans.  I do want to touch on the issue of Affirmative Action and DEI because I see it as a blind spot where Democrats have openly embraced racism, yet again in their long history of racism.

Now I am sure that those who support Affirmative Action polices are well-intentioned and want to see higher numbers of minorities succeed at all levels, whether it be in colleges admissions, employment opportunities, promotions, etc.  However, the fundamental problem with well-intentioned racism is that it is still racism.  And we need to be honest about that, these AA type policies indeed favor certain races based on their ethnicity, while penalizing other races based on their ethnicity. 

Someone with this mindset would argue "but there have been many injustices done to these groups in the past, so it is necessary to do this to fix these injustices."  I think we need to help others succeed, but I think the means that some what to employ is racist and unjust.  I see that mindset as fundamentally immoral because it has a perverted view of justice.  In that framework, which is similar to what many CRT advocates like Ibram X. Kendi  preach, racism against individuals is rationalized and justified because they dehumanize the individuals they mistreat, failing to see them as individuals, and instead reducing them merely to part of a racial group.  To them it is OK to discriminate against an Asian student because 'too many of them Asians are getting into school anyway'.  Because they have a corrupted view of justice that stops at the group level, and doesn't go down to individual level, they think it is OK to harm an individual of a race they don't favor if it helps someone of a race they do favor.  This is a corrupt view of justice, as true justice seeks justice for each and every individual.  

In this racist framework, it is OK to discriminate against someone because they have 'whiteness'.  As Thomas Sowell explains,  "whiteness" is this timeless spaceless amalgamation of all white people over time smashed together.  That way you can blame a white child today for the actual or perceived sins of a  white person who lived hundreds of years ago.  It is a racist and immoral framework that treats someone based on their group identity rather than as an individual as real justice does.

Affirmative Action polices for college admissions are not victimless.  According to Harvard's own records, 50% of all Asian students rejected had higher GPAs and SAT scores than the average Black student accepted.  Asians students had to have almost 180 points higher scores than other minority groups to be accepted.  That is definitely unfair to an Asian student to penalize them for being Asian.

Affirmative Action also hurts the very minorities it says it is trying to help.  Part of the reason why Black students drop out of school at twice the rate of white students is because they were put into college programs that they were not prepared for the academic rigor.  Only 40% of Black students complete college. This has especially been observed in STEM programs, where the percentage of Black students who enter the program is initially greater than the percentage of white students who enter these programs, but Black students are over twice as likely to drop out or move to lesser paying degrees. For perspective,  61% of Black students who took the  ACT in the 2015 high school graduating class met none of the four ACT college readiness benchmarks, nearly twice the 31% rate for all students. 

 Because these schools want to virtue signal about how diverse they are, they have allowed Black students to enter programs where they told white and Asian students, with the same credentials, that they weren't qualified for the program.  The mismatch issue has especially been seen in studies on passing the bar exam to become a lawyer.  80% of Blacks are in the bottom quintile of law students and are many times more likely NOT to pass the bar, even after 5 tries.  Contrast that to HBCUs which don't employ Affirmative Action polices.  They are 3% of the colleges in the US, make up 10% of Black students in the US, graduate 20% of Black students.  They graduate 40% of all Black engineers in the country, and 50% of all the lawyers in the country.  When a student is in a school where the other students are on his academic level, it dramatically increases his chances of graduating.

The solution is not racism.  When only 16% of Black High School students are proficient in math and English, you aren't going to get lots of STEM students from them.  Only 57% of Black students have access to the full range of math and science courses necessary for college readiness , compared to 81% of Asian American students and 71% of white students.  Many schools are not even trying to ensure Black kids get the classes needed to succeed in STEM fields.  In Baltimore, 1/2 of all high schools have 0 students who are proficient in math.  Let's start there.

Secondly, only 43 percent of Black students felt safe at their schools.  If you don't feel safe and there are many disruptions then you are less likely to learn.  This is a harder cultural issue to challenge, but it is necessary to deal with.  Further, some have said that in a classroom of 30 Black children, if there is one Black child that disrupts the classroom continually, to suspend that Black child is racist.  I would argue, to harm the educational outcomes of the other 29 Black students in the room by leaving someone their who will not permit learning to happen, is the real racist action.   

Since so many urban schools are so bad, it is essential to support school choice and charter schools so the kids who want to learn have options.  To me this is the civil rights issue of our generation, and just like always, the Democrat party is on the wrong side of it.  Just like when Democrats stood on public school steps in the 50's and 60's to keep Black children out of good schools, they are now standing on the steps of good private schools demanding that Black students be kept out.  A child needs a good education NOW, and many of these public schools simply can not do that for them.  Educational freedom is essential for many Black kids to succeed.

So in my opinion, the proper response to racism is to repent of it, not double down on it, as the Democrat party has done.  It was wrong of Democrats to get into bed with the KKK, under their white sheets.  It was wrong for the Democrats to push Jim Crow laws, appoint a KKK member to the Supreme Court, place Asian people in concentration camps, prevent Black kids from going to good public schools, and it is just as wrong today to discriminate against Asian and white students because of their color.  Which races are being targeted may have changed somewhat in the Democrat party, but the racism remains.  Its time to end racist Affirmative Action policies.

Bogan

The problem for the USA is, not that 77% of Americans believe that the 91 indictments against Donald Trump are politically motivated, but that there are actually 23% of Americans who think that they are not.      

Corruption has been a cottage industry in Washington for a very long time, and as the Abscam scandal clearly displayed, it was the Democrat side of the US government which appears to be the primary offenders.      What we are seeing in the USA today, and in other western countries as well, is an alliance between power groups who would normally be hostile to one another, but who today are united in their aim to destroy democracy and create a new society where the elites like themselves carve up their country like a cake.       

Multinational companies now have no allegiance to the countries in which the management chooses to live.    All they care about is their quarterly balance sheets and their next skiing trip to Saint Tropez or Aspen.       Then there are the left wing ideologues who think that they can create a new utopia if only the public service is in charge of everything.       This has resulted in a new alliance where very rich company heads know that they can buy influence in Washington from mainly Democrat politicians, as well as departmental department heads of both republican and Democrat stripe.

It is as if the educated elites of every western society have decided that they are the new aristocracy who can control the plebs through their giant multimedia mates and payoffs to those elected and unelected officials in power.        With an imperiousness not seen since the days of kings and Divine Right, they see nothing wrong with using the immense powers that they have through friends, family, and class loyal government officials, to use the law to imprison political opponents.      Censoring free speech is also top of their agenda when it comes to seizing absolute control of the world’s greatest democracy.

The next election is crucial to US democracy, and to the continued existence in democracy around the world.    Because the USA has always been the bastion of democracy, and if it falls to the new aristocracy, then the rest of the western world will probably fall with it.

Two factors are working against the new aristocrats.         Firstly, the USA has the First and Second Amendments which guarantee both freedom of speech and the right to bear arms.        No people on earth are better armed to revolt against their oppressors than the people of the USA.      Second, there are some very intelligent and extremely capable Republican politicians who are working to root out the corruption in the Democratic party through legal means, like the Congressional Oversight Committee. 

 But if the corrupt aristocrats succeed in putting Donald Trump in prison, you could very well be looking at another US civil war.        All of those brain deads who rejoice at the idea think that putting Donald Trump in jail had better think twice.      Once The People realise that the new aristocracy is bold enough to prevent The People from electing a leader of their own choosing, then armed rebellion is not far away.      This would be a rebellion that the Left would lose.      Armed Forces and police demographics have always been decidedly right wing people.    Add to that, war veterans, the working class whites, and the lower middle class whites, and you have the most productive people in the USA on one side, and the corrupt public servants and their welfare dependent minorities on the other.

MayCaesar

I believe that Trump has been the second or third worst Republican president in the US history and would loathe to see him come back to power - but even to me it is clear that the indictments are absolutely politically motivated. Many of the accusations he is facing are applicable to the majority of high-ranked officials, yet he is the one facing the music.

I think that the first thing you should do is to start speaking honestly and acknowledge that there are serious systematic issues in the government and in the culture, issues that prompted people to vote for a contrarian like Trump in the first place. The idea that, in order to prevent an undesirable outcome from happening, all dirty tricks are acceptable - unconstitutional lockdowns, political witch hunts, selective information delivery, et cetera - is precisely what causes tens of millions of people to look for someone outside of the perceived system; the more unconventional, the better. Many people in the Western world, and particularly in the US, are not comfortable with the idea of existence of a ruling elite that "knows better than the people" what the people need, and the more detached from the voters that elite becomes, the higher the probability of wackos gaining popularity gets.

ZeusAres42

@just_sayin

Regarding Affirmative Action, I believe it's more of an attempt to address longstanding inequalities rather than being another form of racism. We know there's a dark history of discrimination in the U.S., and AA was born out of a need to level the playing field.

On the topic of Asian American admissions, I understand the concerns many have, especially concerning institutions like Harvard. While it's evident that many Asian Americans excel academically, admissions teams often try to see the bigger picture of an applicant's life and experiences. It's worth noting that courts have found that this comprehensive approach isn't biased against Asian Americans.

Furthermore, when discussing Ibram X. Kendi, it's crucial to delve deeper into his work. Summarizing his ideas can lead to misunderstandings, so a more in-depth engagement might give a clearer representation. 

In relation to the “mismatch theory”, it’s a topic that’s divided experts. While there's some belief that minority students may struggle if they're not ready for certain colleges, others counter this, saying that these students often thrive thanks to new experiences and improved resources.

Shifting to HBCUs, I completely agree on their importance. However, saying they don’t use AA seems a little off. Historically, their mission has focused on educating Black Americans, which in its essence, provides targeted support.

Historically speaking, the Democratic Party has indeed had some moments they might not be proud of today. But it's essential to recognize that they've undergone significant changes in their values and policies over the decades.

Concerning urban schools, they certainly face unique challenges. Still, many do a commendable job, and when it comes to safety, I think it's vital to look beyond the numbers and into the broader context.

Moreover, the matter of school choice is close to many people's hearts. While I agree that every child deserves top-notch education, it's also important to note the evolutions in the Democratic Party’s stance on education throughout the years.

In any case, though we might approach these issues from different perspectives, our end goal appears to be the same: a better, more inclusive educational system for the United States. I genuinely hope common ground can be found and the country working to achieve those goals.  

ZeusAres42

Bogan said:

The problem for the USA is, not that 77% of Americans believe that the 91 indictments against Donald Trump are politically motivated, but that there are actually 23% of Americans who think that they are not.      

Corruption has been a cottage industry in Washington for a very long time, and as the Abscam scandal clearly displayed, it was the Democrat side of the US government which appears to be the primary offenders.      What we are seeing in the USA today, and in other western countries as well, is an alliance between power groups who would normally be hostile to one another, but who today are united in their aim to destroy democracy and create a new society where the elites like themselves carve up their country like a cake.       

Multinational companies now have no allegiance to the countries in which the management chooses to live.    All they care about is their quarterly balance sheets and their next skiing trip to Saint Tropez or Aspen.       Then there are the left wing ideologues who think that they can create a new utopia if only the public service is in charge of everything.       This has resulted in a new alliance where very rich company heads know that they can buy influence in Washington from mainly Democrat politicians, as well as departmental department heads of both republican and Democrat stripe.

It is as if the educated elites of every western society have decided that they are the new aristocracy who can control the plebs through their giant multimedia mates and payoffs to those elected and unelected officials in power.        With an imperiousness not seen since the days of kings and Divine Right, they see nothing wrong with using the immense powers that they have through friends, family, and class loyal government officials, to use the law to imprison political opponents.      Censoring free speech is also top of their agenda when it comes to seizing absolute control of the world’s greatest democracy.

The next election is crucial to US democracy, and to the continued existence in democracy around the world.    Because the USA has always been the bastion of democracy, and if it falls to the new aristocracy, then the rest of the western world will probably fall with it.

Two factors are working against the new aristocrats.         Firstly, the USA has the First and Second Amendments which guarantee both freedom of speech and the right to bear arms.        No people on earth are better armed to revolt against their oppressors than the people of the USA.      Second, there are some very intelligent and extremely capable Republican politicians who are working to root out the corruption in the Democratic party through legal means, like the Congressional Oversight Committee. 

 But if the corrupt aristocrats succeed in putting Donald Trump in prison, you could very well be looking at another US civil war.        All of those brain deads who rejoice at the idea think that putting Donald Trump in jail had better think twice.      Once The People realise that the new aristocracy is bold enough to prevent The People from electing a leader of their own choosing, then armed rebellion is not far away.      This would be a rebellion that the Left would lose.      Armed Forces and police demographics have always been decidedly right wing people.    Add to that, war veterans, the working class whites, and the lower middle class whites, and you have the most productive people in the USA on one side, and the corrupt public servants and their welfare dependent minorities on the other.

@Bogan

To begin with, tossing out percentages like 77% of Americans believing in a certain perspective demands scrutiny. Where is this data coming from? The reliability and context of such a claim should be rigorously examined before accepting it as truth.

In addressing the claim that corruption is a staple in Washington, and particularly pinning it on the Democrats, is an overly generalized view. Yes, the Abscam scandal implicated several politicians, some of whom were Democrats. But let's be clear, both political parties have faced their respective controversies through the years.

On the point of a supposed unified alliance intending to topple democracy, I'd be cautious. Political alliances are often shaped by momentary needs and specific goals. Saying that multinational companies and political ideologues are hand-in-glove working against democratic values sounds more like a dramatic plot than reality.

Speaking of multinational companies, it's a broad stroke to paint them all with the same brush of disloyalty and profit-chasing. Many have initiatives centered around community development, sustainability, and corporate responsibility.

Additionally, saying that everyone on the political left wishes for a society controlled solely by the public sector narrows down a vast and varied range of views present within leftist politics.

The narrative about a new aristocracy of educated elites seeking global domination is a bold claim. While power and wealth concentration concerns are real, it's quite a leap to argue there's a worldwide plot being orchestrated.

Moreover, while the U.S. has indeed championed democratic ideals globally, it's a bit dramatic to assume its faltering would spell doom for democracies everywhere.

Regarding the First and Second Amendments, they undoubtedly provide certain rights to Americans. Yet, to assert that no other populace is as primed for revolt minimizes the spirit and resilience of populations across the world.

Turning our attention to the role of Republican politicians, while many work to ensure transparency and fairness, it's not entirely accurate to say their only goal is to unmask Democratic corruption. Both parties have had their moments under the scanner.

Lastly, suggesting that a single event, such as a legal judgment concerning Donald Trump, might plunge the nation into civil war is alarmingly speculative. Civil conflicts are borne out of a mix of deep-seated issues, and it's a broad stroke to say one incident could set off such chaos. And the idea of pitting certain demographics as more productive or valuable based on political beliefs is a divisive notion.

Bogan

@ZeusAres42

Hi Zues.    I thought you weren’t talking to me anymore?     Did you get sick and tired of crossing swords with Barnadot, Jack, Piloteer, and all of the rest of the characters on this site who are not overly burdened with intelligence? 

  

Zeus quote.     To begin with, tossing out percentages like 77% of Americans believing in a certain perspective demands scrutiny. Where is this data coming from? The reliability and context of such a claim should be rigorously examined before accepting it as truth.

You obviously did not bother to read the lead in article to this topic, or you would have realised that they are the figures of the person who started this topic.

Zeus quote.   In addressing the claim that corruption is a staple in Washington, and particularly pinning it on the Democrats, is an overly generalized view.      Yes, the Abscam scandal implicated several politicians, some of whom were Democrats. But let's be clear, both political parties have faced their respective controversies through the years.

 No, it appears to be a reasonable view.   I am certainty that there are plenty of RINO’s (Republicans In Name Only) who hate Trump as much as the Democrats, because they are just as involved in influence peddling as the Dems.     But ABSCAM prosecuted (from memory) 22 Democrat politicians and no Republican politicians.      And today, it is the Dems who have weaponised the Justice Department, the FBI, the CIA, and the IRS.     If I was Trump, I would keep well away from the Texas Schoolbook Repository.

 

Zeus quote      On the point of a supposed unified alliance intending to topple democracy, I'd be cautious. Political alliances are often shaped by momentary needs and specific goals.

Agreed.    And given that the Left has an ideological split between those who are super rich, and those who claim to champion the poor, then such an alliance is unstable.     But the fact remains that it exists at the moment and it may yet win because people like yourself are walking around with your eyes wired shut.     

 

Zeus quote     Saying that multinational companies and political ideologues are hand-in-glove working against democratic values sounds more like a dramatic plot than reality.

Then why was Sam Bankmann Fried arrested in Jamaica one day before he was to testify before Congress?    If you don’t know, I will tell you.     The Dems did not want him to reveal that his bank’s “election contributions” to mainly Democrats politicians were simply payoffs from companies needing to buy influence.      The Dems needed to hide the fact that Bankmann’s bank was laundering money by presenting the slush money as simply the banks own campaign contributions.   This was used by powerful organisations that needed to buy influence to conceal their self interest.     Biden even bragged on camera that he used US Aid to have a Ukrainian prosecutor sacked who was investigating a company they the Biden family had interests in.    That itself is a mea culpa.   Have you been asleep for the past 6 months?

 

 Zeus quote     Speaking of multinational companies, it's a broad stroke to paint them all with the same brush of disloyalty and profit-chasing. Many have initiatives cantered around community development, sustainability, and corporate responsibility.

“Community development’?      Meaning lining up with the transexual movement, which is hardly a right wing cause?       The list of woke companies just goes on and on.   But Disney, Gillette, Anheuser-Busch, Target, and Starbucks are some of the better known ones who support the USA’s new Cultural Revolution.

 

Zeus quote.       Additionally, saying that everyone on the political left wishes for a society controlled solely by the public sector narrows down a vast and varied range of views present within leftist politics.

 Then why aren’t the ordinary members of the Democratic Party not screaming their heads off at the rampant corruption, the weaponization of the US unelected public institutions, the two tiered justice system, and the political persecution of the USA’s leading Presidential candidate?      If they are not part of the solution, then they are part of the problem. 

Zeus quote      The narrative about a new aristocracy of educated elites seeking global domination is a bold claim.

Rubbish, the EU got so big and corrupt that first Britain left, Ireland tried to leave but the elites somehow managed to block that.    Italy tried to do the same but the elites blocked Italy.     The EU is a left wing organisation manned by overly well paid elites, at a time when Europe itself is becoming more right wing.     And the reason for that, is exactly because of the same phenomena in the USA.     The left could not run a chook raffle at the local school fete.   Everything they do turns to sheet.    

Zeus quote        While power and wealth concentration concerns are real, it's quite a leap to argue there's a worldwide plot being orchestrated.

 It is not a plot.   Like climatologists and climate change, it was the simultaneous  realisation by the elites around the world that they all had common goals, common interests, and a sincere belief that they are special and born to rule. 

 

Zeus quote.   Moreover, while the U.S. has indeed championed democratic ideals globally, it's a bit dramatic to assume its faltering would spell doom for democracies everywhere.

 It used to.   It constantly told totalitarian government all over the world that they should not persecute their political opponents.  Now the Dems are doing it themselves, and everybody on planet earth can see it, except you, Jack, and just-sayin.

Zeus quote   Regarding the First and Second Amendments, they undoubtedly provide certain rights to Americans. Yet, to assert that no other populace is as primed for revolt minimizes the spirit and resilience of populations across the world.

 The Americans are not primed for revolt, but they are armed for revolt.     Totalitarians always try to disarm the population to get total control.     The USA is the only country on earth that gives it’s citizens the right to own firearms.   And the reason for that, is because their founding father’s knew that arming the people was the best way to prevent totalitarianism in the USA. 

 

Zues quote.     Turning our attention to the role of Republican politicians, while many work to ensure transparency and fairness, it's not entirely accurate to say their only goal is to unmask Democratic corruption. Both parties have had their moments under the scanner.

 The only politicians attempting to hold Merick Garland, Christopher Wray, Dr Fauci, and the FBI to account are Republicans.     Although some Democrats have resigned from their corrupt party because they can no longer stomach how far left the Dems have gone.       The corruption of once noble organisations is as immutable as the Law of Gravity.     The activists and the self seeking charlatans always rise to the top, while the people of virtue resign in disgust, and the organisation decays until new reformers arrive.     

 

Zeus quote     Lastly, suggesting that a single event, such as a legal judgment concerning Donald Trump, might plunge the nation into civil war is alarmingly speculative.

My opinion is, that if the Dems succeed in jailing Donald Trump, then that will be another shot heard around the world.    The decent people of the USA will realise that the present administration are totalitarians who are doing whatever is necessary to prevent the majority of US electors from electing a President of their choice.    At that point, the decent people of America will conclude that the present government is illegitimate, and force must be used to prevent the usurpation of the Constitution.     Trump is already becoming a folk hero, a man who is fighting for America against the forces of privilege and self interest.

       

Zeus quote      Civil conflicts are borne out of a mix of deep-seated issues, and it's a broad stroke to say one incident could set off such chaos.

Ever heard of The Boston Tea party?     How about when  bunch of "right wing gunmen" prevented what they considered the forces of an illegitimate government from advancing beyond Lexington Green?   

Zeus quote.    And the idea of pitting certain demographics as more productive or valuable based on political beliefs is a divisive notion.

 Yet Democrat run cities are in decline and republic controlled ones are booming.  People are voting with their feet.      California has been losing 100,000 productive people a year, now it is 200,000.     They are taking their brains and their taxes with them, to Republican states who value them.  They wish to escape Democrat controlled states and cities, where they are squeezed like lemons to provide ever more public service jobs, and their businesses smothered in public service red tape.  

just_sayin

@ZeusAres42

Regarding Affirmative Action, I believe it's more of an attempt to address longstanding inequalities rather than being another form of racism. We know there's a dark history of discrimination in the U.S., and AA was born out of a need to level the playing field.

On the topic of Asian American admissions, I understand the concerns many have, especially concerning institutions like Harvard. While it's evident that many Asian Americans excel academically, admissions teams often try to see the bigger picture of an applicant's life and experiences. It's worth noting that courts have found that this comprehensive approach isn't biased against Asian Americans.

Furthermore, when discussing Ibram X. Kendi, it's crucial to delve deeper into his work. Summarizing his ideas can lead to misunderstandings, so a more in-depth engagement might give a clearer representation. 

Just a few more words on racism.  I understand that some support Affirmative Action because they want to address past injustices and I'm sure they are well-intentioned.  Its still racism though.  You are proving my point.  The reason people believe it is OK to discriminate against an Asian student for being an Asian is because they have dehumanized her, and see her only as an automaton of her racial group.  When your policy only sees groups and not the individual, it is a racist policy.  How is it not racist to treat an Asian person less favorably than you would a Black candidate?  Accepting less qualified Black students while rejecting better qualified Asian students because of their race is the very definition of racism.  

An obvious problem with the the notion that you can 'see the bigger picture of an applicant's life and experiences' is clearly seen in what happened at Harvard.  Harvard used 'soft criteria' to disqualify Asian students.  A common one was that Asians always seemed to score much lower on 'shows leadership potential'.  It didn't matter if the Asian student had lead multiple groups and the Black student hadn't lead anything, the Asian student consistently was graded lower.  This subtle racism is no different than when people would not rent to Blacks.  It should concern us that these universities have not truly repented of their racism, and are now just looking for more covert ways to discriminate.  Sneaky racism is just as much racism as overt racism.

Kendi has a stock reply when people point out the unethical and unjust implications of his racist beliefs - 'you just don't understand me'.  No, we really do, that's why we can identify specific points where his belief system is unjust and illogical.  Kendi has embraced racist ideology where he sees people not as individuals, but only according to their group affiliations.  He minimizes individuality and personal responsibility.  As he will tell you himself 'all inequities come from racism, nothing else'.   As a result he has a perverted view of justice where he rationalizes it is just to harm an individual of one race, if it helps a group he favors.  He is comfortable labeling an individual as an oppressor or victim, solely based on their race, without any knowledge of their beliefs, actions, or circumstances.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Source for the quote Kendi please.

@just_sayin

"As he will tell you himself 'all inequities come from racism, nothing else'."

jack

A new CBS poll says that 61% of Republican primary voters believe that Trump would definitely beat Biden, which the pollsters suggest is likely due to their belief that since he won the last election, he has some sort of incumbency advantage.  Furthermore, they believe the Trump presidency was the most successful of all time and they want more of it.

77% believe the indictments against Trump are politically motivated and 62% say they plan to vote for him in the primary.

Hello Bogan:

The article is cloudy, but if you can read, you'll see the 77% refers to Republican primary voters..  Even if you CAN'T read you'd instinctively KNOW that number is wacky..   But, you ain't particularly instinctive..

excon

just_sayin

@Dreamer

My "quote" is not a literal quote of his.  The idea is communicated throughout his books.  For example:

“One either believes problems are rooted in groups of people, as a racist, or located the roots of problems in power and policies, as an antiracist.” - How to Be an Antiracist, Page 9

“An antiracist idea is any idea that suggests the racial groups are equals in all their apparent differences—that there is nothing right or wrong with any racial group. Antiracist ideas argue that racist policies are the cause of racial inequities.” p. 20

“Americans have long been trained to see the deficiencies of people rather than policy. It’s a pretty easy mistake to make: People are in our faces. Policies are distant. We are particularly poor at seeing the policies lurking behind the struggles of people.” p. 28

“Some White people do not identify as White for the same reason they identify as not-racist: to avoid reckoning with the ways that Whiteness—even as a construction and mirage—has informed their notions of America and identity and offered them privilege, the primary one being the privilege of being inherently normal, standard, and legal.” p. 38

 “Admit racial inequity is a problem of bad policy, not bad people." - p 231

Kendi is every bit the racist that the Grand Wizard of the KKK is or that Black Supremacist Louis Farrakhan is.

When you fail to believe that individual actions have any bearing on outcomes and that inequities are always the fault of racism, then you close your racist mind to real solutions - this applies to all facets of life including education, health, employment, wealth, etc.  

ZeusAres42

Bogan said:

@ZeusAres42

  

Zeus quote.     To begin with, tossing out percentages like 77% of Americans believing in a certain perspective demands scrutiny. Where is this data coming from? The reliability and context of such a claim should be rigorously examined before accepting it as truth.

You obviously did not bother to read the lead in article to this topic, or you would have realised that they are the figures of the person who started this topic.

I did see the lead-in article and the figures presented. My point is about the broader practice of scrutinizing data sources. It's a habit we should cultivate, especially given events like the misinformation spread during the 2016 U.S. election. I've offered a broader perspective on this, while it seems you've taken the lead article's figures without much skepticism.

Zeus quote.   In addressing the claim that corruption is a staple in Washington, and particularly pinning it on the Democrats, is an overly generalized view.      Yes, the Abscam scandal implicated several politicians, some of whom were Democrats. But let's be clear, both political parties have faced their respective controversies through the years.

 No, it appears to be a reasonable view.   I am certainty that there are plenty of RINO’s (Republicans In Name Only) who hate Trump as much as the Democrats, because they are just as involved in influence peddling as the Dems.     But ABSCAM prosecuted (from memory) 22 Democrat politicians and no Republican politicians.      And today, it is the Dems who have weaponised the Justice Department, the FBI, the CIA, and the IRS.     If I was Trump, I would keep well away from the Texas Schoolbook Repository.

Look, politics in the U.S. has always been a messy business, no matter which side you're looking at. Remember the Watergate mess in the 70s? That was a tough spot for the Republicans, leading to the President resigning. Then there was Abscam a bit later, with a bunch of Democrats getting caught in a bribery mess. Sure, Abscam mainly pointed fingers at Democrats, but the point is, no party's hands are entirely clean. And about the talk of certain departments being 'weaponized' nowadays? Well, we've got to stay sharp, question things, and hold everyone in power to the same standard, regardless of the party label they wear.

Zeus quote      On the point of a supposed unified alliance intending to topple democracy, I'd be cautious. Political alliances are often shaped by momentary needs and specific goals.

Agreed.    And given that the Left has an ideological split between those who are super rich, and those who claim to champion the poor, then such an alliance is unstable.     But the fact remains that it exists at the moment and it may yet win because people like yourself are walking around with your eyes wired shut.     

When we talk about alliances, it's not always about having the exact same beliefs. It's often more about shared goals. Like, when you mention the mix of super-rich folks and those standing up for the poor in the Left—it kind of reminds me of how the U.S. and the USSR, despite their huge differences, teamed up in WWII. They both really wanted to beat Nazi Germany. So, while these alliances might seem a bit weird on the surface, they've got their reasons. And, hey, it's not about having our eyes shut—it's about understanding that politics can be a lot more complicated and layered than we sometimes think."

 Zeus quote     Saying that multinational companies and political ideologues are hand-in-glove working against democratic values sounds more like a dramatic plot than reality.

Then why was Sam Bankmann Fried arrested in Jamaica one day before he was to testify before Congress?    If you don’t know, I will tell you.     The Dems did not want him to reveal that his bank’s “election contributions” to mainly Democrats politicians were simply payoffs from companies needing to buy influence.      The Dems needed to hide the fact that Bankmann’s bank was laundering money by presenting the slush money as simply the banks own campaign contributions.   This was used by powerful organisations that needed to buy influence to conceal their self interest.     Biden even bragged on camera that he used US Aid to have a Ukrainian prosecutor sacked who was investigating a company they the Biden family had interests in.    That itself is a mea culpa.   Have you been asleep for the past 6 months?

I get where you're coming from with the whole Sam Bankmann Fried situation. It's worrying, no doubt. But let's not paint every political donation or every Democrat with the same brush because of one incident. Remember Enron? It was a mess, but not every energy company behaved like them. As for the Biden-Ukraine thing, there's a lot of talk and context to sift through. Politics isn't black and white, and sometimes, what we see is just the tip of the iceberg.

 Zeus quote     Speaking of multinational companies, it's a broad stroke to paint them all with the same brush of disloyalty and profit-chasing. Many have initiatives centered around community development, sustainability, and corporate responsibility.

“Community development’?      Meaning lining up with the transexual movement, which is hardly a right wing cause?       The list of woke companies just goes on and on.   But Disney, Gillette, Anheuser-Busch, Target, and Starbucks are some of the better known ones who support the USA’s new Cultural Revolution.

Companies, big or small, often align with societal values that resonate with their audiences. When Nike supported Colin Kaepernick, it wasn't just a marketing strategy; it was a nod to larger conversations about racial justice. Now, when you mention 'Community development' and connect it to brands like Disney, Gillette, or Starbucks, it's essential to see that they're not just chasing after 'woke' trends. They're trying to reflect the diverse values and voices of their customers. This isn't about supporting a 'Cultural Revolution'; it's about staying relevant in a rapidly changing world.

Zeus quote.       Additionally, saying that everyone on the political left wishes for a society controlled solely by the public sector narrows down a vast and varied range of views present within leftist politics.

 Then why aren’t the ordinary members of the Democratic Party not screaming their heads off at the rampant corruption, the weaponization of the US unelected public institutions, the two tiered justice system, and the political persecution of the USA’s leading Presidential candidate?      If they are not part of the solution, then they are part of the problem. 

Understandably, it might seem that every member of the Democratic Party should voice their concerns loudly about certain issues. But, like any large group, there are many voices and perspectives. Not everyone sees things the same way, or they might prioritize issues differently. Remember, just because not everyone is shouting about an issue doesn't mean they're not concerned or working behind the scenes. Plus, assuming that silence means complicity is a bit of a stretch. There are many ways to be part of a solution without being the loudest voice in the room.

Zeus quote      The narrative about a new aristocracy of educated elites seeking global domination is a bold claim.

Rubbish, the EU got so big and corrupt that first Britain left, Ireland tried to leave but the elites somehow managed to block that.    Italy tried to do the same but the elites blocked Italy.     The EU is a left wing organisation manned by overly well paid elites, at a time when Europe itself is becoming more right wing.     And the reason for that, is exactly because of the same phenomena in the USA.     The left could not run a chook raffle at the local school fete.   Everything they do turns to sheet.    

Look, Bogan, the EU isn’t just some left-leaning monster. It's a complicated mix of countries with their own issues. Take Brexit - it wasn’t just about 'corruption'; there were a bunch of reasons. And lumping Ireland and Italy's situations together? That's painting with a really broad brush. Yes, the EU has a mix of political views, but it's not all 'left-wing'. Europe's shifting politics isn't black and white, and it's not fair to just blame one side. Every group has its challenges, but let's try to see the bigger picture here.

Zeus quote        While power and wealth concentration concerns are real, it's quite a leap to argue there's a worldwide plot being orchestrated.

 It is not a plot.   Like climatologists and climate change, it was the simultaneous  realisation by the elites around the world that they all had common goals, common interests, and a sincere belief that they are special and born to rule. 

While it's true that elites in various societies might find shared interests, democracies globally have roots that go deeper than just elite ambitions. They're shaped by their unique histories, cultures, and the aspirations of their people. The U.S., for instance, has always promoted democratic ideals. But other nations have forged their paths, sometimes in spite of elite interests. It's crucial not to underestimate the power and will of the people in shaping their own democratic destinies.

Zeus quote.   Moreover, while the U.S. has indeed championed democratic ideals globally, it's a bit dramatic to assume its faltering would spell doom for democracies everywhere.

 It used to.   It constantly told totalitarian government all over the world that they should not persecute their political opponents.  Now the Dems are doing it themselves, and everybody on planet earth can see it, except you, Jack, and just-sayin.

I understand your perspective, Bogan. The U.S. has indeed historically advocated for democratic values and principles around the world. But remember, democracies, including the U.S., are complex entities with checks and balances. While it's concerning to see any signs of division or internal struggles, it doesn't mean the entirety of democratic ideals are at stake. Moreover, many other nations uphold these values based on their own histories and beliefs, not just because of U.S. influence. We should all strive for understanding and unity instead of painting broad strokes based on select events or perceptions.

Zeus quote   Regarding the First and Second Amendments, they undoubtedly provide certain rights to Americans. Yet, to assert that no other populace is as primed for revolt minimizes the spirit and resilience of populations across the world.

 The Americans are not primed for revolt, but they are armed for revolt.     Totalitarians always try to disarm the population to get total control.     The USA is the only country on earth that gives it’s citizens the right to own firearms.   And the reason for that, is because their founding father’s knew that arming the people was the best way to prevent totalitarianism in the USA. 

Yes, it's true; the U.S. has a distinct approach to firearm ownership, rooted in its history and the intent of its Founding Fathers to prevent potential tyranny. However, while Americans are indeed armed, it's important to recognize that the spirit of resistance against oppression isn't solely defined by the possession of firearms. Many nations have demonstrated resilience and courage in the face of adversity, even without widespread gun ownership. The essence of fighting against totalitarianism exists in various forms globally.

Zeus quote.     Turning our attention to the role of Republican politicians, while many work to ensure transparency and fairness, it's not entirely accurate to say their only goal is to unmask Democratic corruption. Both parties have had their moments under the scanner.

 The only politicians attempting to hold Merick Garland, Christopher Wray, Dr Fauci, and the FBI to account are Republicans.     Although some Democrats have resigned from their corrupt party because they can no longer stomach how far left the Dems have gone.       The corruption of once noble organisations is as immutable as the Law of Gravity.     The activists and the self seeking charlatans always rise to the top, while the people of virtue resign in disgust, and the organisation decays until new reformers arrive.     

I mean, it's undeniable that many Republicans are actively raising concerns about certain figures and institutions. But it's bit of a stretch to say that only one party is fighting corruption or that every Democrat supports certain actions or ideologies. Throughout history, members from both parties have taken stands against wrongdoing. Moreover, the natural ebb and flow of power within any political party or organization often leads to periods of introspection and reform.

Zeus quote     Lastly, suggesting that a single event, such as a legal judgment concerning Donald Trump, might plunge the nation into civil war is alarmingly speculative.

My opinion is, that if the Dems succeed in jailing Donald Trump, then that will be another shot heard around the world.    The decent people of the USA will realise that the present administration are totalitarians who are doing whatever is necessary to prevent the majority of US electors from electing a President of their choice.    At that point, the decent people of America will conclude that the present government is illegitimate, and force must be used to prevent the usurpation of the Constitution.     Trump is already becoming a folk hero, a man who is fighting for America against the forces of privilege and self interest.

I think it's a powerful sentiment to suggest that jailing a former President could have such far-reaching consequences. However, it's crucial to remember that any legal action taken against Donald Trump, like anyone else, would be based on evidence and conducted within the bounds of the U.S. legal system. History has shown us the importance of due process. And while Trump undoubtedly has a strong following, it's a leap to say that the majority would view government actions as totalitarian just based on this hypothetical situation. US democracy has faced many challenges and has always thrived on diverse opinions, but it's essential to ensure that debates remain grounded in the tenets of the USA's Constitution and not veer into potentially harmful speculations.

Zeus quote      Civil conflicts are borne out of a mix of deep-seated issues, and it's a broad stroke to say one incident could set off such chaos.

Ever heard of The Boston Tea party?     How about when  bunch of "right wing gunmen" prevented what they considered the forces of an illegitimate government from advancing beyond Lexington Green?   

You bring up some classic examples with the Boston Tea Party and Lexington Green. No doubt, single moments can ignite bigger changes. But remember, these moments were just the tip of the iceberg – they had a lot of build-up and tension behind them. It's easy to draw straight lines between past and present, but today's world is a different ballgame with its own set of rules. Let's not oversimplify things; history has its nuances, and so does today."

Zeus quote.    And the idea of pitting certain demographics as more productive or valuable based on political beliefs is a divisive notion.

 Yet Democrat run cities are in decline and republic controlled ones are booming.  People are voting with their feet.      California has been losing 100,000 productive people a year, now it is 200,000.     They are taking their brains and their taxes with them, to Republican states who value them.  They wish to escape Democrat controlled states and cities, where they are squeezed like lemons to provide ever more public service jobs, and their businesses smothered in public service red tape.  

I get that there's been a noticeable shift of people moving between states, but saying it's all about politics might be missing some layers. There's a lot going on – folks might be chasing cheaper living costs, better job opportunities, or even just a change of scenery. Take California: it's not just politics pushing people out. Those sky-high rents and natural disasters like wildfires definitely play a part. Governance is a factor, sure, but there's a bigger picture to consider when we talk about why people move."

ZeusAres42

just_sayin said:

@ZeusAres42

Regarding Affirmative Action, I believe it's more of an attempt to address longstanding inequalities rather than being another form of racism. We know there's a dark history of discrimination in the U.S., and AA was born out of a need to level the playing field.

On the topic of Asian American admissions, I understand the concerns many have, especially concerning institutions like Harvard. While it's evident that many Asian Americans excel academically, admissions teams often try to see the bigger picture of an applicant's life and experiences. It's worth noting that courts have found that this comprehensive approach isn't biased against Asian Americans.

Furthermore, when discussing Ibram X. Kendi, it's crucial to delve deeper into his work. Summarizing his ideas can lead to misunderstandings, so a more in-depth engagement might give a clearer representation. 

Just a few more words on racism.  I understand that some support Affirmative Action because they want to address past injustices and I'm sure they are well-intentioned.  Its still racism though.  You are proving my point.  The reason people believe it is OK to discriminate against an Asian student for being an Asian is because they have dehumanized her, and see her only as an automaton of her racial group.  When your policy only sees groups and not the individual, it is a racist policy.  How is it not racist to treat an Asian person less favorably than you would a Black candidate?  Accepting less qualified Black students while rejecting better qualified Asian students because of their race is the very definition of racism.  

An obvious problem with the the notion that you can 'see the bigger picture of an applicant's life and experiences' is clearly seen in what happened at Harvard.  Harvard used 'soft criteria' to disqualify Asian students.  A common one was that Asians always seemed to score much lower on 'shows leadership potential'.  It didn't matter if the Asian student had lead multiple groups and the Black student hadn't lead anything, the Asian student consistently was graded lower.  This subtle racism is no different than when people would not rent to Blacks.  It should concern us that these universities have not truly repented of their racism, and are now just looking for more covert ways to discriminate.  Sneaky racism is just as much racism as overt racism.

Kendi has a stock reply when people point out the unethical and unjust implications of his racist beliefs - 'you just don't understand me'.  No, we really do, that's why we can identify specific points where his belief system is unjust and illogical.  Kendi has embraced racist ideology where he sees people not as individuals, but only according to their group affiliations.  He minimizes individuality and personal responsibility.  As he will tell you himself 'all inequities come from racism, nothing else'.   As a result he has a perverted view of justice where he rationalizes it is just to harm an individual of one race, if it helps a group he favors.  He is comfortable labeling an individual as an oppressor or victim, solely based on their race, without any knowledge of their beliefs, actions, or circumstances.

just_sayin

Affirmative action has always been about righting some of history's wrongs. I get why you might see it as another form of racism, but it's more about trying to balance a playing field that’s been tilted for a very long time. The goal isn't to label or box people into racial categories but to acknowledge that there have been persistent disparities that still affect certain groups today. Imagine affirmative action as a tool to fix a lopsided table. If one leg is shorter than the other three because it's been chipped away over time, you'd put something under that leg to stabilize the table. That's how affirmative action functions – it's not about making one leg longer than the others, but about ensuring the table stands firm and serves its purpose for everyone.

Now, about the whole Asian American admissions issue at Harvard: When we talk about college admissions, it isn't just about grades and test scores; it's about the whole picture of a student. But, I get your points about the "soft criteria." Even though the court backed Harvard, institutions should still be held accountable where necessary.

As for Dr. Ibram X. Kendi, I think there's a lot to unpack with his work. He challenges us to rethink our understanding of racism, and it's okay if we don't always agree with him. But saying his entire ideology is racist might not do justice to his broader arguments about how deep-rooted racism affects our society.

Bogan

@ZeusAres42 ;    Zeus quote   I did see the lead-in article and the figures presented. My point is about the broader practice of scrutinizing data sources. It's a habit we should cultivate, especially given events like the misinformation spread during the 2016 U.S. election. I've offered a broader perspective on this, while it seems you've taken the lead article's figures without much skepticism.

 I can’t win, can I?     Even if I use the very same statistics submitted by another contributor who supports your own peculiar worldview, I still get slammed.

 

Zeus quote    Look, politics in the U.S. has always been a messy business, no matter which side you're looking at.

 It has.    But what we are looking at today is the here and now.    Corruption has grown so much that even Democrat voters can see the double standards and outright hypocrisy of the party that they voted for.    

 

Zeus quote    Remember the Watergate mess in the 70s? That was a tough spot for the Republicans, leading to the President resigning.

 And the Attorney general of the USA being jailed for obstructing justice.      This happened because the USA at that time had a free press.      Today, the corruption and election interference of the Democratic party is orders of magnitude greater than the Republican Party's dirty tricks department at the time of Watergate.    But the mainstream press is whistling and looking the other way in regards to Biden and Clinton family corruption, while simultaneously being the unofficial anti Trump propaganda arm of the Dems.     In addition, the FBI at the time of Watergate were not so politicised that they openly interfered in Presidential elections.

 

Zeus quote      Then there was Abscam a bit later, with a bunch of Democrats getting caught in a bribery mess. Sure, Abscam mainly pointed fingers at Democrats, but the point is, no party's hands are entirely clean. And about the talk of certain departments being 'weaponized' nowadays? Well, we've got to stay sharp, question things, and hold everyone in power to the same standard, regardless of the party label they wear.

 The fact remains that the leader of the Democratic Party is self evidently corrupt, and the Democrats will do anything to cling to power, including obstructing justice, using their contacts in the various government departments to hide evidence, suppress investigations, suppress free speech, and persecute their main political rival, because they know Trump is going to become the next President of the USA.    Unless they can think of something, anything, to stop him.    That should be a concern to you.     Instead, you make excuses for the people who are trashing your constitution, and doing their utmost to prevent the electors of the USA from electing a leader of their choosing.    Why are you doing that? 

 

Zeus quote     When we talk about alliances, it's not always about having the exact same beliefs. It's often more about shared goals. Like, when you mention the mix of super-rich folks and those standing up for the poor in the Left—it kind of reminds me of how the U.S. and the USSR, despite their huge differences, teamed up in WWII. They both really wanted to beat Nazi Germany. So, while these alliances might seem a bit weird on the surface, they've got their reasons. And, hey, it's not about having our eyes shut—it's about understanding that politics can be a lot more complicated and layered than we sometimes think."

 That is a very good example of how two groups of people with diametrically opposed views can form an alliance to attain a common goal.      Yet you refuse to see it happening in US society, right now?       The Democratic Party today represents the corrupt politicians, civil servants, and big business leaders who are all scratching each others backs.     But they can hardly sell that image to US electors.     They need a constituency, so they are doing a deal with the extreme left to pretend that they are all the protectors of the poor, non white, and minority citizens from the oppression of the white, straight oppressors.     Divide and conquer.    It worked on you.      But there is a fly in their ointment.   No matter how much they pretend it is not there, there is a fundamental difference between leftism and what the rich elites want.    So, if totalitarianism occurs, the side which wins will purge the other.     Putin is good at that.    Have a political rival?     Just shoot his plane down with a SAM missile.      Americans totalitarians are more subtle.  They use creative thanking to dream up an incredible 91 charges to frame their main political rival, as election time approaches, in the sure knowledge that too many people in the USA think like you do.   .   

 

Zeus quote  I get where you're coming from with the whole Sam Bankmann Fried situation. It's worrying, no doubt. But let's not paint every political donation or every Democrat with the same brush because of one incident. Remember Enron? It was a mess, but not every energy company behaved like them. As for the Biden-Ukraine thing, there's a lot of talk and context to sift through. Politics isn't black and white, and sometimes, what we see is just the tip of the iceberg.

 Amazing.    Confronted by self evident corruption, to the extent that Joe Biden publicly bragged on camera at how he used US taxpayer funds to bribe Ukraine, to shut down an investigation of a company his family had interests in, and you just want to find excuses to let him off the hook?    If companies, including foreign companies, which includes companies linked to the Chinese Communist Party, are secretly giving “donations” to US politicians to influence political decisions, I would have thought that you would have condemned that most strenuously?        Instead, you come up with lame excuses. 

 

Zeus quote      Companies, big or small, often align with societal values that resonate with their audiences.     Now, when you mention 'Community development' and connect it to brands like Disney, Gillette, or Starbucks, it's essential to see that they're not just chasing after 'woke' trends. They're trying to reflect the diverse values and voices of their customers.

 That statement is so wrong I can hardly know where to start in refuting it.       The financial catastrophes surrounding woke companies like Disney, Netflix, and Anheuser-Busch completely reject your idea that their woke culture appeals to their customers.     The opposite is the real factor as to why they are going broke.  

 

Zeus quote      When Nike supported Colin Kaepernick, it wasn't just a marketing strategy; it was a nod to larger conversations about racial justice.

 “Racial Justice” is just another euphemism for CRT.     And CRT is racism.    It is left wing socialism which blames whites for the failings of blacks.    So, you get a multinational company, run by a bunch of super rich elitist socialist socialites, who own homes all over the world, and who have no allegiance to the land that they were born in, who’s products are manufactured by slave labour, pretending that they are a pillar of moral rectitude.    And you bought it, and can’t see the hypocrisy?     

 

Zeus quote       This isn't about supporting a 'Cultural Revolution'; it's about staying relevant in a rapidly changing world.

 If you know your history, you know that things can change for the better, or for the worst.      Democracies have worked better than totalitarian societies because it is hoped that most people in democracies have a reasonable degree of intelligence, and so when proposals for change are instigated, the people can decide for themselves whether change is warranted, or not.   And even if they select wrong, they can always change their minds at the next election.   

 Today, things are going the other way around.    Elitists in every country are attempting to impose what they see as their own, usually self serving  moral values on the rest of society.    By subterfuge and disinformation in their tame media when possible, and by force if necessary.     The only recourse that free people have to prevent this is the ballot box.       In the USA, an obviously corrupt government that fears being exposed and prosecuted if elected out of office, is attempting to muzzle free speech through manipulation of the media by their media mates, outright election interference, and the legal persecution of their main political rival.    And you can’t see a problem with that?   Ama-a-a-azing.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: As time goes on MAGA supporters will become more monolithic, crazed, and dangerous.

@ZeusAres42

" To suggest that everyone affiliated with MAGA shares uniform beliefs reduces the varied and diverse perspectives that exist within."

Mistakes were Made using the example of pyramid and stepping downwards. At the top in July 2016 Biden and Trump supporters were similar only inches from each other. Yet, Trump supporters as time went by went further and further down the pyramid until Biden and Trump supporters were very very different. Yes, some did step off the pyramid and abandon Trump. But, the MAGA people that are left are really far down the pyramid and really monolithic in beliefs.

In other words as more and more dis-confirming evidence was presented Trump supporter base shrank at the same time those that remained became more and more zealous in their beliefs. Effectively, the remaining Trump supporters quintupled down when presented with contradictory evidence. I think you may be missing that Trump is far from a normal president.

Trump supporters that remain are beyond normal measures of help and are dangerous. Just as the climate change deniers that remain are lunatics and beyond help. We are from out of the woods, Trump supporters are at their most dangerous and crazed right now and the general trend according to cognitive dissonance theory is they will only become more dangerous and more crazed in the future.

https://skepticalscience.com/cult-activists-anti-rural-renewables.html

jack

Argument Topic: The words in a CBS poll SHOULDN'T need correcting.. But, sadly, they do.

jack said:

A new CBS poll says that 61% of Republican primary voters believe that Trump would definitely beat Biden, which the pollsters suggest is likely due to their belief that since he won the last election, he has some sort of incumbency advantage.  Furthermore, they believe the Trump presidency was the most successful of all time and they want more of it.

77% believe the indictments against Trump are politically motivated and 62% say they plan to vote for him in the primary.

  Bogan said:

I can’t win, can I?     Even if I use the very same statistics submitted by another contributor who supports your own peculiar worldview, I still get slammed.

Hello Bogan:

The problem is, you DIDN'T use my numbers.  If you thought the CBS poll sited above reported the views  of 77% of ALL AMERICANS..... you can't read.  But, it's worse than that..  Even after being corrected, you used 'em again..  I guess because you can't win a debate with facts.

You're pitiful.

excon

Bogan

@Dreamer ;   Trump supporters that remain are beyond normal measures of help and are dangerous. Just as the climate change deniers that remain are lunatics and beyond help. We are from out of the woods, Trump supporters are at their most dangerous and crazed right now and the general trend according to cognitive dissonance theory is they will only become more dangerous and more crazed in the future.

Well done, Dreamer!      With this statement you have proven to everyone reading these posts that everybody stereotypes, and everybody negatively prejudges groups of people that they don't like.     So, the next time some brain dead lefty tells you that stereotyping and prejudging is utterly wrong, you will know that they are speaking a load of crap.    Now, all you need do is to realise that they are speaking crap about climate change and Donald Trump, as well.

ZeusAres42

@Dreamer

So, the pyramid analogy – it's a catchy image, right; MAGA supporters all moving downwards together! But life's rarely that straightforward. Picture a crowd at a concert. Everyone's there for the music, but each person has a unique story for why they love the band. That's how I try see MAGA supporters: united by a cause but diverse in their motivations and beliefs.

Now, onto this idea of confirmation bias. Honestly, who among us hasn't favored info that backs up what we already think? It's human nature! So, pointing fingers at MAGA supporters for this is like calling out someone in a rainstorm for getting wet. We all do it.

And drawing a line between MAGA supporters and climate change deniers? It's like saying all vegetarians hate fast food. Not true! Just because someone supports MAGA doesn't mean they toss science out the window.

Let's also chat about labeling. Think about your group of friends. Would it be fair if someone judged all of you by the quirkiest person in the group? Trump supporters are no different. Using the actions of a few to judge many? It's just not a fair game.

And lastly, about the cognitive dissonance theory – sure, when our beliefs are challenged, we can get a bit defensive. But hey, that's everyone, not just MAGA fans. Whether it's your favorite sports team or a beloved movie, we all double down on our favorites now and then. That's just how it is. 

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Trump is not a normal president.

@ZeusAres42

19% mostly false, 37% false with a whooping 364 checks, and 18% pants on fire.

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2017/02/16/trump-falsely-claims-biggest-electoral-win-since-reagan/98002648/

All these little lies play into cognitive dissonance theory. To stand by Trump with all the actions he has performed that would have ended the campaign of normal president requires a lot of dissonance reduction, thus further down the pyramid. The sex scandals alone should have been enough. Just look at the reaction to Bill Clinton's sex scandal versus Trump. Trump is a highly abnormal president.

Bogan

@ZeusAres42 ;     

So, the group think – it's a catchy image, right; anti MAGA supporters all moving downwards together! But life's rarely that straightforward. Picture a crowd at a concert. Everyone's there for the music, but each person has a unique story for why they love the band. That's how I try see anti MAGA supporters: united by a cause but diverse in their motivations and beliefs.

Now, onto this idea of confirmation bias. Honestly, who among us hasn't favored info that backs up what we already think? It's human nature! So, pointing fingers at anti MAGA supporters for this is like calling out someone in a rainstorm for getting wet. We all do it.

And drawing a line between anti MAGA supporters and climate change alarmists? It's like saying all vegetarians hate fast food. Not true! Just because someone hates MAGA, doesn't mean they toss science out the window.

Let's also chat about labeling. Think about your group of friends. Would it be fair if someone judged all of you by the quirkiest person in the group? Anti Trump supporters are no different. Using the actions of a few to judge many? It's just not a fair game.

And lastly, about the cognitive dissonance theory – sure, when our beliefs are challenged, we can get a bit defensive. But hey, that's everyone, not just anti MAGA fans. Whether it's your favorite sports team or a beloved movie, we all double down on our favorites now and then. That's just how it is. 

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: MAGA

MAGA = My A$$ Got Arrested

Dreamer

Argument Topic: They are plenty of liberals that are conspiracy theorists or extremists. Trump is highly abnormal.

@ZeusAres42

Yes, I've been guilty of confirmation bias, I am an ex-anti vaxxer driven by guilt. The flu kills, who knows how many if any people died because I didn't get my flu shot for years.

I agree, that there are liberals who believe in conspiracy theories for example Nomenclature. I've also had the misfortune to run into woke extremists where anything I said was racist. Ironically even anti-racist work I did was considered a token effort and therefore racist, sigh.

There is also the violent left.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/the-rise-of-the-violent-left/534192/

Yet, even the violent left and woke extremists are proof that Trump is not a normal president. Trump has an odd ability to rile up liberals myself included.

"Dean famously testified about Nixon’s obstruction of justice. Nobody claims Dean lied about Nixon. The sin in Trump’s eyes is that he flipped, violating the omerta. Trump even uses Mafia lingo, “rat,” to describe Dean’s cooperation with law enforcement." By Jonathan Chait

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/08/almost-literal-mob-boss-donald-trump-wants-to-ban-flipping.html

I remember you saying you were in a country in Europe and therefore have more distance from Trump. I am sorry to have to tell you this, but I don't think you are seeing just how bad a president Trump was.

Bogan

 I don't think you are seeing just how bad a president Trump was.

President Donald Trump    1.    Reduced unemployment
                                           2.    Lowered inflation
                                           3.    Had the USA withdraw from the UN climate change nonsense, which is killing European economies.
                                           4.     Negotiated a peace deal between Israel and the Gulf States, which if has that been anyone but Donald Trump, would have won him a Nobel Prize.
                                           5.     Told the Europeans to stop relying on Russian gas and oil, and he was right.
                                           6.     Told the Germans to increase their defense spending, and he was right. 
                                           7.      Ordered the US Navy to bomb Syria with cruise missiles when the Assad regime used poisoned gas on civilians.
                                           8.       Stared down that nuclear armed fruitcake in North Korea and told him that it was no use threatening the USA with nuclear weapons, as the US had "a bigger red button and it works."
                                           9.       Offered Democrat mayors and Democrat governors the use of the Notional Guard, to control the Democrat inspired anarchy in Democrat cities.
                                          10.      Correctly identified the Wuhan lab in China as the source of the COVID-19
                                           11.   Told Vladimir Putin that if Putin invaded Ukraine, he would bomb Moscow.
                                           12.     Often took part in media briefings where he answered every question, even from hostile activist "journalists".  

And all this with one hand tied behind his back through endless fraudulent impeachments and fraudulent criminal charges leveled at him by his political opponents.

President Joe Biden.          1.    Increased unemployment
                                           2.   Sent inflation to historical highs
                                           3.  Completely mishandled the withdrawal from Afghanistan.
                                           4.   Is partly responsible for starting the Ukraine war, when Putin realised that the President of the USA was a complete id-iot.  
                                          .5.   Falls over all the time, and is so incoherent that the USA has become the laughing stock of the world
                                           6.     Has been so corrupt for decades, with bribery, racketeering, money laundering, and very serious tax evasion, that he even bragged about it on camera.  
                                           7.  Is so frightened of media questioning that he rarely appears at media briefings, and he runs away when asked difficult questions.  
                                           8.     Heads a corrupt government of incompetents and people guilty of perverting the course of justice, who think that the best way to stop the Us electorate from electing the President of their  choice is to jail their main political opponent.
                                           

And Dreamer thinks that President Trump was a bad President?    Ama-a-a-a-zing.    

ZeusAres42

Bogan said:

 I don't think you are seeing just how bad a president Trump was.

President Donald Trump    1.    Reduced unemployment
                                           2.    Lowered inflation
                                           3.    Had the USA withdraw from the UN climate change nonsense, which is killing European economies.
                                           4.     Negotiated a peace deal between Israel and the Gulf States, which if has that been anyone but Donald Trump, would have won him a Nobel Prize.
                                           5.     Told the Europeans to stop relying on Russian gas and oil, and he was right.
                                           6.     Told the Germans to increase their defense spending, and he was right. 
                                           7.      Ordered the US Navy to bomb Syria with cruise missiles when the Assad regime used poisoned gas on civilians.
                                           8.       Stared down that nuclear armed fruitcake in North Korea and told him that it was no use threatening the USA with nuclear weapons, as the US had "a bigger red button and it works."
                                           9.       Offered Democrat mayors and Democrat governors the use of the Notional Guard, to control the Democrat inspired anarchy in Democrat cities.
                                          10.      Correctly identified the Wuhan lab in China as the source of the COVID-19
                                           11.   Told Vladimir Putin that if Putin invaded Ukraine, he would bomb Moscow.
                                           12.     Often took part in media briefings where he answered every question, even from hostile activist "journalists".  

And all this with one hand tied behind his back through endless fraudulent impeachments and fraudulent criminal charges leveled at him by his political opponents.

President Joe Biden.          1.    Increased unemployment
                                           2.   Sent inflation to historical highs
                                           3.  Completely mishandled the withdrawal from Afghanistan.
                                           4.   Is partly responsible for starting the Ukraine war, when Putin realised that the President of the USA was a complete id-iot.  
                                          .5.   Falls over all the time, and is so incoherent that the USA has become the laughing stock of the world
                                           6.     Has been so corrupt for decades, with bribery, racketeering, money laundering, and very serious tax evasion, that he even bragged about it on camera.  
                                           7.  Is so frightened of media questioning that he rarely appears at media briefings, and he runs away when asked difficult questions.  
                                           8.     Heads a corrupt government of incompetents and people guilty of perverting the course of justice, who think that the best way to stop the Us electorate from electing the President of their  choice is to jail their main political opponent.
                                           

And Dreamer thinks that President Trump was a bad President?    Ama-a-a-a-zing.    

Critizims of Trump include but are no means limited to the following:

1. Response to the COVID-19 pandemic: Critics argue that the Trump administration was slow to respond to the pandemic and failed to develop a coordinated national strategy, which they believe may have contributed to the U.S.'s high number of cases and deaths.

2. Immigration policy: Trump's "zero tolerance" policy led to the separation of thousands of migrant children from their parents at the U.S.-Mexico border. Critics argue that this was inhumane.

3. Travel Ban: Trump's executive order barring individuals from several Muslim-majority countries from entering the U.S. was criticized for being discriminatory and was challenged in court multiple times.

4. Withdrawal from international agreements: Trump pulled the U.S. out of the Paris Climate Agreement and the Iran nuclear deal (JCPOA), decisions that were criticized by many in the international community and within the U.S.

5. Relationship with NATO: Trump frequently criticized NATO, leading many to believe that he was undermining the military alliance which has been a cornerstone of Western defense policy since the Second World War.

6. Handling of racial issues: Trump was criticized for his response to the violent events in Charlottesville in 2017 when a white nationalist rally led to the death of a counter-protester. Critics argue that he failed to adequately condemn white supremacists.

7. Impeachments: Trump was impeached twice by the House of Representatives: first for his solicitation of Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden, and second for his role in inciting an insurrection at the Capitol on January 6, 2021.

8. Environmental deregulation: The Trump administration rolled back numerous environmental protections and regulations which critics argue could have negative long-term impacts on the environment.

9. Relationship with the media: Trump frequently criticized and belittled the media, calling them "the enemy of the people," leading to concerns about freedom of the press.

10. Personal business interests: Concerns were raised about the potential for conflicts of interest given Trump's vast business empire, especially as he didn't divest from his businesses.

11. Communication style: Trump's use of Twitter and his communication style in general were considered by many to be unorthodox and at times inflammatory.

12. Relationship with authoritarian leaders: Trump's seemingly friendly disposition towards leaders like Vladimir Putin of Russia, Kim Jong-un of North Korea, and Rodrigo Duterte of the Philippines raised eyebrows and concerns.

13. Dismissal of intelligence findings: Trump occasionally disputed or downplayed findings from his own intelligence agencies, particularly concerning Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. elections.

14. Defunding the World Health Organization (WHO): Trump announced in 2020 that the U.S. would terminate its relationship with the WHO, citing disagreements over its handling of the COVID-19 pandemic. Critics argued that this was a misguided move during a global health crisis.

15. Repeal of the Affordable Care Act (ACA): Though Trump and the GOP Congress made multiple attempts to repeal the ACA ("Obamacare"), they were unsuccessful. However, they did manage to repeal the individual mandate. Critics argue that the administration's actions undermined health coverage for millions.

16. Tax Cuts and Jobs Act: While the act provided tax cuts for many Americans, critics argue that it disproportionately benefited the wealthy and corporations and added significantly to the national debt.

17. Transgender military ban: Trump announced a ban on transgender individuals from serving in the U.S. military. It was heavily criticized as discriminatory and was eventually reversed by the Biden administration.

18. Handling of Jamal Khashoggi's murder: The Trump administration was criticized for its response to the murder of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, particularly for not holding Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman accountable despite intelligence pointing to his involvement.

19. Pardons and commutations: Trump granted clemency to several of his allies and controversial figures, leading to allegations of misuse of this presidential power.

20. Erosion of institutions: Critics argue that Trump undermined various institutions, including the Department of Justice and the FBI, by alleging bias without concrete evidence and attempting to use them for personal or political gains.

21. Handling of North Korea: While Trump held historic meetings with North Korean leader Kim Jong-un, critics argue that these summits lacked substantive progress on denuclearization.

22. Use of emergency powers to fund border wall: After Congress didn't allocate the funds Trump requested for a border wall, he declared a national emergency to divert military funding for its construction. This move was controversial and faced legal challenges.

23. Allegations of sexism and misogyny: Over the years, multiple allegations of sexual misconduct were made against Trump. He denied all of them. Moreover, his comments about women on various occasions were criticized as sexist.

24. Withholding military aid to Ukraine: This led to his first impeachment. Trump temporarily withheld military aid while simultaneously asking the Ukrainian president to investigate Joe Biden and his son. Critics saw this as an abuse of power.

25. Withdrawal from the Open Skies Treaty: This treaty allowed nations to conduct unarmed surveillance flights over each other's territories. Trump's decision to withdraw was seen by critics as another step away from international cooperation and arms control.

26. Attitude towards climate change: Trump expressed skepticism about climate change and its human-made causes, leading to criticism from environmentalists and the global community. Here, even admitted on T.V that while he understood these concerns it would not be best because of his fans. 

27. Education Policy: His Secretary of Education, Betsy DeVos, faced criticism for her approach to public schools, her support for charter schools, and her handling of Title IX regulations related to sexual assault on campuses.

28. The handling of Puerto Rico post-Hurricane Maria: Many criticized Trump for what they saw as an inadequate and insensitive response to the hurricane's devastation in Puerto Rico.

29. Tariffs and Trade Wars: Trump's aggressive use of tariffs, especially against China, led to concerns about economic repercussions and the potential for prolonged trade wars.

30. Controversial Appointments: Several of Trump's appointees for high-level positions faced criticism and controversy, leading to rapid turnovers in certain positions.

31. Rollback on LGBTQ+ protections: The Trump administration was criticized for rolling back certain protections for LGBTQ+ individuals, especially in healthcare and employment.

32. Tensions with traditional allies: Trump had disagreements and confrontations with leaders of traditionally allied nations, which some critics argue weakened U.S. global alliances.

33. Undermining the Postal Service: In the run-up to the 2020 election, Trump was accused of undermining the U.S. Postal Service at a time when many Americans were relying on mail-in voting due to the pandemic.

34. Comments on the 2020 Election: Trump made repeated claims that the 2020 election would be "rigged" against him, and after the election, he did not concede defeat and made unfounded allegations of widespread voter fraud.

35. Relocation of the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem: While some applauded the move as recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital, others saw it as detrimental to peace efforts between Israel and Palestine.

36. Budget Deficit: Despite promises to reduce the deficit, the U.S. budget deficit grew during Trump's presidency, partly due to his tax cuts and increased spending.

37. Refusal to release tax returns: Breaking with decades of precedent, Trump refused to release his tax returns, leading to speculation and criticism about what they might contain.

38. Use of unsecured phones: There were reports that Trump used unsecured phones for communication, leading to concerns about potential security breaches.

39. Endorsement of candidates with questionable backgrounds: Trump endorsed, and campaigned for, several candidates who faced serious allegations or had controversial pasts.

40. Engagement with conspiracy theories: Trump sometimes retweeted or commented on unverified conspiracy theories, leading to concerns about misinformation.

41. Rollback of wildlife protections: The Trump administration made changes to the Endangered Species Act, which critics argue could endanger many species and habitats.

42. Disbanding of pandemic response team: Prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, the Trump administration disbanded the National Security Council's global health security and biodefense unit, a decision which faced scrutiny during the pandemic.

43. Handling of protests: Trump's responses to the Black Lives Matter protests, particularly in cities like Portland, were seen by some as heavy-handed.

And @Bogan thinks Trump was a great President? Amazing! 

ZeusAres42

Dreamer said:

@ZeusAres42

Yes, I've been guilty of confirmation bias, I am an ex-anti vaxxer driven by guilt. The flu kills, who knows how many if any people died because I didn't get my flu shot for years.

@Dreamer

I guess you are being sarcastic here. And also possibly a bit of a strawman.I argued that you can not paint  a whole load of people with the same brush (AKA hasty generalization falacy). In your case, it appeared you are arguing that all Maga supporters are such because of some kind of cognitive dissonance and/or confirmation bias. However, this is black and white thinking, and negates the fact that political beliefs rest on a spectrum with billions of people all over the globe sharing both liberal and conservative views. 

I agree, that there are liberals who believe in conspiracy theories for example Nomenclature. I've also had the misfortune to run into woke extremists where anything I said was racist. Ironically even anti-racist work I did was considered a token effort and therefore racist, sigh.

There is also the violent left.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/the-rise-of-the-violent-left/534192/

Yet, even the violent left and woke extremists are proof that Trump is not a normal president. Trump has an odd ability to rile up liberals myself included.

"Dean famously testified about Nixon’s obstruction of justice. Nobody claims Dean lied about Nixon. The sin in Trump’s eyes is that he flipped, violating the omerta. Trump even uses Mafia lingo, “rat,” to describe Dean’s cooperation with law enforcement." By Jonathan Chait

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/08/almost-literal-mob-boss-donald-trump-wants-to-ban-flipping.html

Sorry, but how is this relevant to anything I have said? Also, on another when engaging in debates with me can you not mention !d!ots such as Nom or dee? These two misfits are of no interest to me and have no relevance to this debate. 

There is also the violent left.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/the-rise-of-the-violent-left/534192/

Yet, even the violent left and woke extremists are proof that Trump is not a normal president. Trump has an odd ability to rile up liberals myself included.

So, despite the fact that there has been an extreme left in the USA for decades well before the Trump administration they are the way they are because of Trump? To use that logic then we would have to conclude that the Extreme right is the way they are because of Biden. 

I remember you saying you were in a country in Europe and therefore have more distance from Trump. I am sorry to have to tell you this, but I don't think you are seeing just how bad a president Trump was.

I'm not as deeply engrossed in U.S. politics as I once was, nor do I follow it as closely as the political climate in my own country. Yet, my focus hasn't been predominantly on Trump. If you're seeking my opinion on the ideal presidential candidate, I'm not convinced either Trump or Biden fits the bill. Both are well beyond the conventional retirement age. Instead of holding the highest office, perhaps a more leisurely, retired life would suit them. While some view Trump as lacking seriousness, concerns about Biden's mental acuity have arisen. Ultimately, their age might not position them best to make such impactful decisions. In my view, Barack Obama was the last commendable president. But not just because he was much younger but for a whole multitude of other reasons in addition. 

Dreamer

Argument Topic: No, I wasn't being sarcastic.

@ZeusAres42

I was responding to this. 

"Now, onto this idea of confirmation bias. Honestly, who among us hasn't favored info that backs up what we already think? It's human nature! So, pointing fingers at MAGA supporters for this is like calling out someone in a rainstorm for getting wet. We all do it." ZuesAres42

I was agreeing with you that we all are guilty of confirmation bias. 

"In your case, it appeared you are arguing that all Maga supporters are such because of some kind of cognitive dissonance and/or confirmation bias. However, this is black and white thinking, and negates the fact that political beliefs rest on a spectrum with billions of people all over the globe sharing both liberal and conservative views. " ZuesAres42

False spectrum fallacy, there are plenty of never Trump conservatives. I am focusing on Trump supporters only. Even the Ron DeSantis seem much more sane than Trump supporters.

 As for false spectrum, anti-vaxxers use this oh well we all make mistakes there is no clear demarcation point between pseudo-science and science. The wielder of this fallacy seeks to blur the lines when there is clear differences between the two. For example pseudo-science tends to rely upon low sample size with many endpoints. Science retracts or apologizes when mistakes are made.

"Sorry, but how is this relevant to anything I have said?" ZuesAres42

I was responding to this:

"Let's also chat about labeling. Think about your group of friends. Would it be fair if someone judged all of you by the quirkiest person in the group? Trump supporters are no different. Using the actions of a few to judge many? It's just not a fair game.'" ZuesAres42

I was agreeing that there are liberals who are clearly incorrect. What is different is that liberals argue amongst their-selves. Trump supporters scarily don't seem to. I will respect your wishes and not mention the two users anymore.

The extreme left existed but not like 2017 before Trump got elected. All the sudden the system seemed totally broken and the extreme left was almost legitimate. Anarchist mob justice seemed less crazy. 

 No, of course the extreme left is wrong. That's why I argue against them. Two wrongs don't make a right.

You seem to presenting some sort of false balance. There is something off about your logic on the subject, though I may have gotten the incorrect logical fallacy. I don't care much for Biden, but he is way better than Trump. The lesser of two evils. Most liberals I know feel the same way. This is in sharp contrast to Trump supporters who sickeningly sound like they are in love with Trump, yuck.

You don't see Hillary/Biden supporters nor never Trump conservatives rioting on capital hill.

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

You don't see Hillary/Biden supporters nor never Trump conservatives rioting on capital hill.

Funny you have to say that, since a few months before the January 6th, in June of 2020, "Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone" in Seattle was raging. Unlike the January 6th protests confined to a small area around one building for a few hours, CHAZ encompassed multiple intersections and public roads and lasted for over 3 weeks, disrupting life in the entire megacity. CHAZ was organized by the Black Lives Matter movement and its sympathizers who spoke heavily in favor of Biden and against Trump.

I have a lot of negative things to say about Trump supporters, but one thing I cannot say about them is that they are somehow violent or disruptive. The January 6th incident was literally the only case in which a significant number of Trump supporters at a political event did something highly illegal. Compare it to the number of incidents that members of the Black Lives Matter movement were involved in just after the George Floyd's murder: endless acts of mass vandalism and riots all around the country, to the point where owners of many stores in large cities had to hire private security forces to protect their property.

In the city I lived in at the time, I once went to the downtown to do some DMV paperwork - and a bunch of protesters threw rocks at my car, and the DMV was blockaded by thugs with baseball bats. Have you ever had the experience of walking through / driving by a crowd of Trump supporters and fearing for your life? No? I thought so.

jack

MayCaesar said:

Funny you have to say that, since a few months before the January 6th, in June of 2020, "Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone" in Seattle was raging. Unlike the January 6th protests confined to a small area around one building for a few hours, CHAZ encompassed multiple intersections and public roads and lasted for over 3 weeks,

Hello May:

So, they held it for 3 weeks..  Was our democracy in peril?  No.  Was our democracy in peril on January 6?  It was.

How did you  miss that?

excon

MayCaesar

@jack

I was responding to particular Dreamer's point, which I quoted directly. Nobody talked about "your democracy", and, as usual, you do not have anything to say interesting enough to warrant crashing into someone else's conversation. Go away, the drinks are over there.

jack

MayCaesar said:

@jack

... as usual, you do not have anything to say interesting enough to warrant crashing into someone else's conversation.

Hello again, May:

Crashing in?????  Isn't that what we DO in debates??

Bwa, ha ha ha ha ha.

excon

ZeusAres42

@Dreamer

Regarding confirmation bias, I guess then we're in agreement. We all have the propensity to favor information that aligns with our pre-existing beliefs. The challenge is recognizing this tendency and ensuring it doesn’t skew our understanding.

Moreover, when I touched upon the range of political beliefs, my aim was to emphasize that people can have a variety of reasons for supporting a given leader or party. It's important to appreciate this and to avoid making blanket assumptions about large groups. Hence why I previously stated this is remisncent of black and white thinking. 

Your point about liberals frequently challenging one another offers a unique perspective into the dynamism of the political left. However, we should also recognize that disagreements and debates exist within all major groups, including Trump supporters. Suggesting they lack internal debates may not provide a comprehensive view of their community. That said, my focus ranged on MAGA supporters that are not necessarily Trump supporerters, as well as other groups.  

As for the rising visibility of the extreme left post-2016, while Trump's presence was a significant factor in the political landscape, it might not be the only one influencing these shifts.

Concerning the idea of "false balance," my intention was to highlight the complexity of the political landscape, with multiple variables in play. While I understand the sentiment of choosing the "lesser of two evils" between Biden and Trump, it's also useful to consider each leader's distinct actions and merits.

Lastly, the unsettling events at Capitol Hill are hard to overlook. While it’s evident that several Trump supporters played a part, it's essential to remember that they don’t represent the entire base. Again, judging a broad group by the actions of a few can be misleading.

Bogan

@ZeusAres42

 1.         Response to the COVID-19 pandemic: Critics argue that the Trump administration was slow to respond to the pandemic and failed to develop a coordinated national strategy, which they believe may have contributed to the U.S.'s high number of cases and deaths.  

  Of course, left wing neo Marxist “critics” accuse Trump of everything, including burning down the Reichstag.    Such “criticisms” I dismissed in the same way as I dismissed every other bullsheet charge levelled at Trump, one of which (Russia collision) turned out to be a provable hoax.     President Trump correctly declared that the Wuhan virus originated in China, and was slammed by the mainstream press for attacking their beloved Chinese Communist Party, who’s political system they so admire, and wish the USA would emulate.    

      

2.       Immigration policy: Trump's "zero tolerance" policy led to the separation of thousands of migrant children from their parents at the U.S.-Mexico border. Critics argue that this was inhumane.

 The policies regarding the separation of children from their families was instituted by the Obama regime.      This is yet another touchy feely issue which ignores facts.     Many families desperate to give their children a new life in a functioning white western society, deliberately push their children over the border and flee, knowing that the US authorities will do their utmost to protect children.     This issue was deliberately misrepresented by Marxist AOC, which depicted a false video of AOC at the border, supposedly crying at the sight of illegal immigrant children in custody.      This image was found to be fraudulent.

 3.        Travel Ban: Trump's executive order barring individuals from several Muslim-majority countries from entering the U.S. was criticized for being discriminatory and was challenged in court multiple times.

 The whole idea of a border is to discriminate as to who and who not may enter.     The idea that Muslims can just sashay into white western societies has seen a lot of white westerners murdered and raped, as well as 9/11.       Muslims should stay in their own nests which has been fouled by Islam, not come to western countries and try and turn our white western communities into what they fled from.     The importation of Muslims into Europe is tearing Europe apart, with France being the most glaring example of that.    You have just given me reason to praise Trump, not criticise him.    TRUMP WAS RIGHT AGAIN.  

 

 4.          Withdrawal from international agreements: Trump pulled the U.S. out of the Paris Climate Agreement and the Iran nuclear deal (JCPOA), decisions that were criticized by many in the international community and within the U.S.

 Once again, you are giving me reasons to praise Trump, not criticise him.     Neo Marxists want to destroy the sovereignty of every country in order to fulfill their dreamy one world government ideal, led by left wing socialists like themselves.       Here in Australia, our diplomatic corps is famous for it’s paedophiles who are regularly tossed out of foreign countries for engaging in sex with children.     When they are not screwing kids, these diplomats do everything they can to divest Australia of our rights and responsibilities, by signing away our sovereignty on a range of matters, to politically appointed, left wing UN committees.     TRUMP WAS RIGHT AGAIN. 

 

5.            Relationship with NATO: Trump frequently criticized NATO, leading many to believe that he was undermining the military alliance which has been a cornerstone of Western defense policy since the Second World War.

 Hahahaha!     Like are you kidding?     I will bet that you did not dream up this list yourself?   I would say that you cut and pasted it from somewhere, and did not even bother reading it?   Donald Trump realised that the rest of the world was budging off the USA as to their defiance commitments.     Here in Australia, our defiance policy is, and always has been, to fight to the last American.      But at least Australia commits 2% of our GDP to defense, in line with most western countries.     Germany, however, only committed 1% of it’s GDP, which meant that Germany’s armed forces were in complete crisis.       When Trump told the Europeans to increase their defense budgets at the European parliament, the image of young German EU diplomats openly laughing at him was shown on TV.     They are not laughing anymore.    With the invasion of Ukraine by Russia, Europeans are now scrambling to increase their defense spending. TRUMP WAS RIGHT AGAIN.

 

6.       Handling of racial issues: Trump was criticized for his response to the violent events in Charlottesville in 2017 when a white nationalist rally led to the death of a counter-protester. Critics argue that he failed to adequately condemn white supremacists.

 Of course the neo Marxists will use race as a weapon against Trump.     The whole idea is to divide and conquer, so using multiculturalism to divide white western society was their plan all along.   They could then pretend that they are the defenders of “non white” minorities from the supposedly evil white oppressors.      If you have white skin, you had better start thinking straight on this issue, or you are complicit in the neo Marxist destruction of the very society you choose to live in. 

 

7.        Impeachments: Trump was impeached twice by the House of Representatives: first for his solicitation of Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden, and second for his role in inciting an insurrection at the Capitol on January 6, 2021.

 Hahahaha!    Yes, his attempts run the USA efficiently  was hamstrung by politically motivated impeachments which were all bullsheet, and which went nowhere.    It was all theatre.     The first was all about the Biden family corruption, which you have adopted the three monkey approach to investigating.     TRUMP WAS RIGHT AGAIN.

 

8.      Environmental deregulation: The Trump administration rolled back numerous environmental protections and regulations which critics argue could have negative long-term impacts on the environment.

 Like drilling for oil and building pipelines which kept oil prices low in the USA and also kept inflation low?       Biden fixed that.    Which is why US oil prices are at historical highs, which in turn has caused it’s historically high inflation.      TRUMP WAS RIGHT AGAIN. 

 

 9.   Relationship with the media: Trump frequently criticized and belittled the media, calling them "the enemy of the people," leading to concerns about freedom of the press.

 With good reason.   The mainstream press is the enemy of the people and the protectors of power and privilege.      The press used to be the “fourth estate” which oversaw government and pointed out government corruption, and over reach.      Today, the mainstream press owned by filthy rich oligarchs, panders to a left wing Democratic party, which is trying to jail their main political opponent, while simultaneously whistling “Dixie” and pretending that the glaring and ever more obvious corruption by the Biden family and their administration, does not exist.       TRUMP WAS RIGHT AGAIN. 

 

10.        Personal business interests: Concerns were raised about the potential for conflicts of interest given Trump's vast business empire, especially as he didn't divest from his businesses.

 “Concerns” mean nothing.       On the other hand, where is the “concern” for the obvious bribe taking, and the 20 shell companies set up by the Biden’s to launder money?     Where is the “concern” about the use of pseudonyms by Joe to hide his involvement in official decisions which benefitted his family?     And where is the “concern” about Joe bragging on camera about how he used $1 billion in US aid money to have a Ukrainian prosecutor fired, who was investigating a Ukrainian company that his family had interests in?          Where is the “concern” for the two tiered US justice system, which goes after Trump using creative thinking, but which runs interference for the Biden family corruption?     Where is the "concern" over the fact that the former Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, was married to an investment advisor (who apparently likes screwing male illegal immigrants when Nancy is away from home.)

 

 11.   Communication style: Trump's use of Twitter and his communication style in general were considered by many to be unorthodox and at times inflammatory.

 Those “many” are just western hating Neo Marxists, and who cares what they think?      That Trump talks directly to the people through his media accounts is something original that horrifies Neo Marxists, who prefer to keep their political opinions concealed from the public that they consider to be proles and cretins.     You haven’t figured it out yet, but that includes you.    

 

 12.    Relationship with authoritarian leaders: Trump's seemingly friendly disposition towards leaders like Vladimir Putin of Russia, Kim Jong-un of North Korea, and Rodrigo Duterte of the Philippines raised eyebrows and concerns.

 Trying to be friendly with hostile overseas regimes, and trying to show the west as not being a threat to them, looks really intelligent to me.     Especially if they are armed with nuclear weapons.       This is just another case of finding any excuse to criticise Donald Trump.

 13.               Dismissal of intelligence findings: Trump occasionally disputed or downplayed findings from his own intelligence agencies, particularly concerning Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. elections.

 US intelligence agencies are part of the “Deep State” problem.   The people who run these agencies think that they are the real government  and they have their own agendas.     It was perfectly correct for Trump to look at the ”intelligence” from these agencies with suspicion and deep mistrust.       Historically, western Left wingers have never stopped complaining that US intelligence agencies are out of control, but now they are staffed with left leaning aristocrats, and who are house trained to leftism, the Left suddenly sees no wrongdoing by them.

 

14. Defunding the World Health Organization (WHO): Trump announced in 2020 that the U.S. would terminate its relationship with the WHO, citing disagreements over its handling of the COVID-19 pandemic. Critics argued that this was a misguided move during a global health crisis.

 Once again, you are giving me grounds to congratulate Donald Trump.   It is ironic that so much of the UN agencies are financed by the west, while they are doing their utmost to destroy the west.     Covid was a glaring example of that.    With the USA giving WHO ten times the money that China gave to WHO, WHO became the main detractor of the idea that covid-19 originated in a Chinese bio weapons lab in Wuhan.        WHO refused to heed the warnings of Taiwan, that Covid was infectious to humans, because China hates Taiwan.    So, nothing Taiwan says can be taken seriously by WHO.    TRUMP WAS RIGHT AGAIN.

 

 15.  Repeal of the Affordable Care Act (ACA): Though Trump and the GOP Congress made multiple attempts to repeal the ACA ("Obamacare"), they were unsuccessful. However, they did manage to repeal the individual mandate. Critics argue that the administration's actions undermined health coverage for millions.

 Left wing organisations always champion welfare to dependent people as a way to buy votes, regardless of whether the economy can afford it, or not.    With the US government now tens of trillions in dept, US taxpayers have to consider cutting back on anything which keeps increasing US dept.    As Maggie Thatcher so famously said. “Socialism never works, because sooner or later, the Socialists run out of other people’s money to spend.”

 

16.     Tax Cuts and Jobs Act: While the act provided tax cuts for many Americans, critics argue that it disproportionately benefited the wealthy and corporations and added significantly to the national debt.

 Another cheap shot.     Neo Marxist believe that money either grows on trees or falls from the sky like manna.    Which is why left wing socialism has failed in every one of the 46 nations who were stu-pid enough to implement it.     The main cash cow for Neo-Marxists is the middle class, who are usually their ideological enemies.     So always increasing taxes on “the rich” to buy the votes of “the poor” has always been popular with them.    The problem is, that if you keep raising taxes on “the rich”, sooner or later they will bail out of your utopian jurisdiction, and they will take their brains, their money, and their businesses elsewhere.     This happened in Detroit, and it is now happening in every “blue:” state, especially California.     Republican states know that keeping middle class taxes relatively low increases economic success, which is why Republican states are booming.        This is something that people like Zeus finds impossible to understand.       TRUMP WAS RIGHT AGAIN. 

 

17.    Transgender military ban: Trump announced a ban on transgender individuals from serving in the U.S. military. It was heavily criticized as discriminatory and was eventually reversed by the Biden administration.

 People with mental problems have no business being in an armed forces.     TRUMP WAS RIGHT AGAIN. 

 

 18. Handling of Jamal Khashoggi's murder: The Trump administration was criticized for its response to the murder of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, particularly for not holding Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman accountable despite intelligence pointing to his involvement.

 Most governments in the world today are despotic and they murder their political rivals.   (Just look at the USA and the Deep States assassination of JFK).         Unfortunately, the west needs to do business with them, so constantly attacking them will do nothing except drive these regimes into the arms of China and Russia.   That is called Realpolitic.

 

 18.   Pardons and commutations: Trump granted clemency to several of his allies and controversial figures, leading to allegations of misuse of this presidential power.

 US Presidents have the power to grant clemency.    It is not an “abuse” of their power if they use the power they have.   

 

19.   Erosion of institutions: Critics argue that Trump undermined various institutions, including the Department of Justice and the FBI, by alleging bias without concrete evidence and attempting to use them for personal or political gains.

 Oh wow!   I could write a 5000 word essay on this subject.  

 Throughout the western world, the public service has gotten too big for it’s boots.     Western public servants no longer think of themselves as the paid servants of whichever government is elected by the people, it considers itself as the legitimate government.     It is now populated at the upper level by highly paid pseudo aristocrats who think that they know better than the lowly proles they rule over, with an imperiousness not seen since the days of Divine Right.    In Britain, it is even common for senior public servants to be knighted into the real aristocracy.  

 Democracy is a serious impediment to the sort of rule these aristocrats wish to impose on the public.      One way that they get around democracy, is to support any elected government that will do it’s bidding.     In return, the aristocrats will turn a blind eye to any corruption by the elected officials (or their family members) and their oligarch mates, who live in mansions even the aristocrats admire, while simultaneously using the might and majesty of the law to persecute their political opponents.    

 Another way, is to do what every dictator in history does, and that is, to control the media.     With big media now controlled by super rich oligarchs, this is not a problem.    The new aristocracy can do a deal with their oligarch friends to censor information on the sly, or to fabricate stories inimical to the politician’s hostile to their insidious plans.         

 This is the situation in the USA and in other western countries today.     And why you can not see it is beyond me?   The two tiered US Justice system is a glaring example of the validity of my opinion. 

 

 20. Handling of North Korea: While Trump held historic meetings with North Korean leader Kim Jong-un, critics argue that these summits lacked substantive progress on denuclearization.

 This is yet another bullsheet charge.     There is nothing wrong with easing tensions by talking to crazy, nuclear armed despots.      Trump offered Kim a deal, get rid of your nuclear weapons and we will help you.     But nutcases like Kim know that their nuclear weapons are their only bargaining chip, although little good it does them.    f Kim had any brains, he would have taken Trump's deal.   

 

 21.     Use of emergency powers to fund border wall: After Congress didn't allocate the funds Trump requested for a border wall, he declared a national emergency to divert military funding for its construction. This move was controversial and faced legal challenges.

 The border wall is the smartest thing that Trump did.     The Dems did not want it because they thought that opposing it would buy them lot of Hispanic votes.   And the more low IQ, poverty stricken Hispanics in the USA, dependent upon the US government for food, shelter, and welfare services, the more likely they will vote Democrat when they become US citizens.    It is just another way of corrupting democracy using identity politics.      

 Virtue signaling about illegal immigrants has been popular with Democrat minded people since forever.      But with 7 million people crossing the border in three years and camping on the sidewalks outside of Gucci’s in Democrat cities, criticising the wall is making democrat supporters feel like Christian Scientists with appendicitis. 

 

 22.   Allegations of sexism and misogyny: Over the years, multiple allegations of sexual misconduct were made against Trump. He denied all of them. Moreover, his comments about women on various occasions were criticized as sexist.

 Leftards see nothing wrong with sexist behaviour by their own politicians, yet they screech like banshees when their opponents do naughty things.     Powerful men attract women, and Trump was correct in saying that many women will do anything to attract the attentions of a powerful man.     TRUMP WAS RIGHT AGAIN. 

 

 23.   Withholding military aid to Ukraine: This led to his first impeachment. Trump temporarily withheld military aid while simultaneously asking the Ukrainian president to investigate Joe Biden and his son. Critics saw this as an abuse of power.

 It is entirely appropriate for A US president to withhold US aid to a country which will not co operate with him in investigating self evident corruption, involving his main political opponent.   TRUMP WAS RIGHT AGAIN. 

 

24. Withdrawal from the Open Skies Treaty: This treaty allowed nations to conduct unarmed surveillance flights over each other's territories. Trump's decision to withdraw was seen by critics as another step away from international cooperation and arms control.

 I have never head of that one.     But whatever reason Trump had for doing it, I am sure was correct.

 

25.   Attitude towards climate change: Trump expressed skepticism about climate change and its human-made causes, leading to criticism from environmentalists and the global community. Here, even admitted on T.V that while he understood these concerns it would not be best because of his fans. 

  I know it is hard for leftists like yourself to understand, but there are two sides to this anthropomorphic climate change debate.      Trump supports the sceptic side.     Which is one reason why I support Trump.      I see HIGW as just another attempt by the new aristocrats to control the public, as well as making them accept ever increasing taxes and charges. 

 

27.    Education Policy: His Secretary of Education, Betsy DeVos, faced criticism for her approach to public schools, her support for charter schools, and her handling of Title IX regulations related to sexual assault on campuses.

 Throughout most of the western world, education standards have been slipping in regards to our competitors and enemies.      The main reason for this, is that public schools are now infested with Neo Marxist, pseudo aristocrat  teachers, who think that air brushing history with “revisionist” themes, teaching white children to be ashamed of their race, and teaching children that gender is fluid, is the best way to program children to accept Marxist beliefs. 

 

28.  The handling of Puerto Rico post-Hurricane Maria: Many criticized Trump for what they saw as an inadequate and insensitive response to the hurricane's devastation in Puerto Rico.

 Just another cheap shot.   No matter what Trump does, Leftards will say that it is wrong. 

 

 29. Tariffs and Trade Wars: Trump's aggressive use of tariffs, especially against China, led to concerns about economic repercussions and the potential for prolonged trade wars.

 Once again, you are giving a great reason for people to support Trump.     Who wrote this rubbish?   The PRC?     China uses trade to strengthen it’s own economy and weaken the economies of the west.   Central to that aim is the idea to demand free trade deals for itself while using nefarious methods to control trade into China.     Trump recognised what China was doing and countered it.     TRUMP WAS RIGHT AGAIN.    

 

 30.  Controversial Appointments: Several of Trump's appointees for high-level positions faced criticism and controversy, leading to rapid turnovers in certain positions.

 US Presidents have the right to appoint people they trust to important high level positions.    There is nothing wrong with that.   Whoever wrote this bullsheet is really scraping the bottom of the barrel now. 

 

31.  Rollback on LGBTQ+ protections: The Trump administration was criticized for rolling back certain protections for LGBTQ+ individuals, especially in healthcare and employment.

 I do not know the details of this and so can not comment.  Other than to say it is probably just another barrel scraping exercise. 

 

 32.   Tensions with traditional allies: Trump had disagreements and confrontations with leaders of traditionally allied nations, which some critics argue weakened U.S. global alliances.

 Like telling them to spend more on their defense instead of relying on the US taxpayer to pay for it?      Sounds like TRUMP WAS RIGHT AGAIN.

 

 33.  Undermining the Postal Service: In the run-up to the 2020 election, Trump was accused of undermining the U.S. Postal Service at a time when many Americans were relying on mail-in voting due to the pandemic.

 I have no idea what this was about, other than to point out that mail-in voting was wide open to fraud, and is probably the reason why Trump lost the election. 

 

 34. Comments on the 2020 Election: Trump made repeated claims that the 2020 election would be "rigged" against him, and after the election, he did not concede defeat and made unfounded allegations of widespread voter fraud.

 Which was probably right.       It is funny how you Leftards se nothing wrong with Hillary Clinton questioning voter fraud, yet run around in apoplectic fury when trump does the same thing.   

 

35.   Relocation of the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem: While some applauded the move as recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital, others saw it as detrimental to peace efforts between Israel and Palestine.

 Get it through your impervious skull that Islam is the self declared enemy of western civilisation, and Israel is a part of western civilisation.   Anything which pissses off the Muslims is okay by me.     The only thing that will satisfy “Palestinians” is the complete destruction of Israel.   TRUMP WAS RIGHT AGAIN.

 

37. Budget Deficit: Despite promises to reduce the deficit, the U.S. budget deficit grew during Trump's presidency, partly due to his tax cuts and increased spending.

 He might have been a lot more effective in reducing the deficit, if the Democrat politicians had supported him in closing down overseas US bases, which costs the US taxpayers squillions, so that countries like Australia can bludge on the US taxpayers for our defense.   To give you the idea, Britain has been criticised for only sending 31 Challenger tanks to Ukraine, which, military pundits tell us, “will not make much difference.”      Australia only has 50 tanks in our entire fu-cking army, and they are the first generation (cheap model) second hand M1A1 Abrahms, with the 105 mm gun.     But the Australian public does not worry.  We know that if WW3 eventuates, you yanks will save us from invasion again.   So we spend more on alcohol, cigarettes, horse racing, and our pets combined, than we do on defense.   TRUMP WAS RIGHT AGAIN.  

 

 38. Refusal to release tax returns: Breaking with decades of precedent, Trump refused to release his tax returns, leading to speculation and criticism about what they might contain.

 Or it might have been to stop his yapping critics to use his tax returns to find something, anything, to charge him with yet another bullsheet charge.  

 

 40.Use of unsecured phones: There were reports that Trump used unsecured phones for communication, leading to concerns about potential security breaches.

 “Reports” without attribution are just gossip.. 

 

 41.Endorsement of candidates with questionable backgrounds: Trump endorsed, and campaigned for, several candidates who faced serious allegations or had controversial pasts.

 "Controversial"?   Like supporting free speech?    Supporting the US Constitution?      Supporting the idea of a border?     All you are doing is once again displaying that TRUMP WAS RIGHT AGAIN.   

 

 40. 42.Engagement with conspiracy theories: Trump sometimes retweeted or commented on unverified conspiracy theories, leading to concerns about misinformation.

When his critics sneered that Trump’s assertion that covid-19 came from the Wuhan lab was a conspiracy theory, they ended up with egg all over their faces when Trump was PROVEN RIGHT AGAIN.   

 

 41. Rollback of wildlife protections: The Trump administration made changes to the Endangered Species Act, which critics argue could endanger many species and habitats.

 The left constantly uses the excuse of environmental protection to prevent the construction of projects vital to the continued prosperity of their economies.       Why neo-Marxists seem to utterly hate the very means of economic success which ensures a continued tax cash flow, which allows the Left to buy the votes of the dysfunctional and welfare dependent class, has always been a fascinating subject for me.   Especially since Marxist government have never cared a fig for the environment themselves.    Socialist countries are littered with the world’s most appalling environmental catastrophes.    Chernobyl is a prime example of what happens when government bureaucrats refuse to listen to people who know better. 

 

 Disbanding of pandemic response team: Prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, the Trump administration disbanded the National Security Council's global health security and biodefense unit, a decision which faced scrutiny during the pandemic.

 I do not know the details of this, but just like “Russia Collusion” hoax, I suspect that this is either  fabrication, or a there is a lot more to this than meets the eye. 

 

 42. Handling of protests: Trump's responses to the Black Lives Matter protests, particularly in cities like Portland, were seen by some as heavy-handed.

 And they were seen by others as not being heavy handed enough.      Last I heard, all of the productive, tax paying people are fleeing Portland, which like other Democrat controlled cities like Detroit, is now a failed and decaying city.    Black Lives Matter’s acronym BLM is short for “Buying Large Mansions.”      As per usual, the activist thugs who promote the destruction of western civilisation often get into positions of power where they can indulge in a little graft themselves.    Claiming the sincerest altruism while engaging in self aggrandizement is the many leftists crooks operate.    Obviously, you have never watched “Elmer Gantry.”?   TRUMP WAS RIGHT AGAIN.

Barnardot

@Bogan ;TRUMP WAS RIGHT AGAIN.

I have a lot of respect for Trump but I think a lot of people over play him being right. Sure hes right but hes not exstream right hes just moderate right and what all the rednecks do is say that because he is right it means that he is right as they are. And they give him a bad name because they identify with him. He all ways said that he doesn't hate the rag heads its just that were got to control all the criminal rag heads and criminal spicks coming in to the country. 

So I thinks that red necks should stop putting him up on a pedistool and showing up to be some sort of Nazi nationalistic guy who goes a round in a mat black Ram firing off rounds from a semi auto all day and drinking beer. Hes got more class than that.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Jesus quotes are considered liberal talking points now.

@ZeusAres42

"Most un-Christian person ever’: the white evangelical love affair with Donald Trump gets worse"

https://www.yahoo.com/news/most-un-christian-person-ever-202738863.html

Hmmm, I haven't considered that not all MAGA (Make America Great Again) are Trump supporters. I've found Ron DeSantis MAGA to be slightly more sane than Trump supporters.

Bogan

@Dreamer ;      I've found Ron DeSantis MAGA to be slightly more sane than Trump supporters.

Throughout human history, non tribal societies had demographics which were pyramid shaped and formed three classes.        The aristocracy was at the top, the priestly caste below them (scratching their backs) , and everybody else composed the rest of the pyramid.      This, the guys at the top opined, was the natural order of things, and one reason why Pharaohs built great pyramids as their tombs.     These stupendous  architectural marvels were meant to over awe the lowly plebs and keep them in their place.     Totalitarians today, of either the Left or the Right, think exactly the same way. 

Democracies are more egg shaped, with more people at the top because of the separation of powers mandated by democratic rule.     The lowest class is not the most numerous class, although the socialists in modern democracies today are doing their utmost to rectify that.      The mass of people are in the middle, who comprise the working class and the lower middle class.      These people are the backbone of democracy.   They are the workers who go to work or who run their small businesses, and keep the economy humming along.    They are also the ones who pick up arms and fight their nations enemies whenever foreign threats loom over the horizon.     They are also the demographic which supports Trump.

For people to claim that Trump supporters are insane is interesting.     It tends to reveal that the person who says that, obviously feels that he is of a class superior to the lowly plebs he looks down upon.

Left wing totalitarians once claimed to champion the working class and tried to create class warfare in order to gain absolute power for themselves, and climb to the top of a new pyramid.     Although they did have some success in instigating class hostility in the western world, they soon realised that the white working class in particular were just too smart and too aspirational to fall for the empty promises of left wing totalitarianism.      So, instead of continuing to champion the working class and small businesses, the Left turned on them and instead promoted the importation of as many welfare dependent, and crime and terrorism prone ethnicities into the democratic states as they could.    This also suited the guys at the top, who knew that dividing a nation was the best way to control it. 

That this was inimical to the interests of the working class and small businesses is an understatement.      To begin with, the importation of dysfunctional ethnic groups with their ever growing need for welfare would put a great strain upon the productive in society who’s taxes pay for it.      Secondly, it depressed wages, which is another thing that the guys at the top of the egg really wanted.    Thirdly, it caused crime waves which eventually forced small businesses and their workers to flee entire left wing-controlled cities and states.

So, I can understand why Dreamer would look down his nose at the working class and the lower middle class, because of his class affiliation and snobbery, but I can not understand why he would label his inferiors as “insane.”       Rejecting government policies meant to reestablish a pyramidal society, and which are inimical to your class interests, is not insane.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Not all Trump supporters are exactly the same. Yet, many believe in Qanon and all sorts of other conspiracy theories.

@Bogan

From young earth creationists which yes believe in conspiracies to Qanon, Sandy Hook, climate change denial, anti-vaxxers, election fraud, to many many more yes, Trump supporters come off as insane to me. Can even be as simple as believing in trickle down economics or misunderstanding Laffer curve.

In summary, Trump supporters go against obvious facts that are staring them in the face I view them as living in a hyper reality of lies like George Orwell's 1984 and lunatics. Yes, there are some that just simply think Trump is the lesser of two evils. That aren't deniers and those are ones I try to focus my conversations on. Though it could be a very long conversation before I figure out they aren't a denier of some sort since there are so many conspiracy theories in this post truth era.

Bogan

@Dreamer

The Democrats once represented the white working class, the unions, slavery, and the idea of keeping African people downtrodden.     Today, they have turned their backs on the white working class to the point that they are openly hostile to whites.    What colour skin do you have?     I find it strange that you condemn an entire class of people that your Democrat friends have not only abandoned, but openly sneer at, and then you wonder why they look for another champion?

The Democrats today consist of mutually hostile forces with diametrically opposed beliefs.    First here is the loony left, who just happen to be outright communists.     The idea that the USA could get a communist totalitarian government looks to be very real.    In my opinion, anyone who thinks that either right or left wing socialism is the way forward for the west needs their head examined.      So too, does anyone who thinks that all a male has to do to turn magically into a female is to declare himself a female and put on a dress.   That is loony tunes stuff to me.    I wonder where you stand on that issue?  

 The next Democrat demographic is the so called “underprivileged”.    That includes most Africans, Hispanics, Muslims, criminals, and other ethnicities.    They will vote Democrat because the Dems want to play Robin Hood and tax the rich to buy the votes of the dysfunctional class.     That is okay up to a point, but as Detroit, California, and other Democrat controlled suburbs, cities , and states are discovering, if you keep squeezing the Golden Goose, the goose will fly away and take their tax revenue and job creation skills with them.     That is sort of another Laffer Curve.

 Next comes indoctrinated young people, Hitler Youth and Komsomol types, in which demographic I would include you.    Then there is academia.    As part of the Public service, mainly funded by governments, they will support any government that will give them more money.      In addition, academics, and the public service in general, have always had this crazy idea that “intelligent” people like themselves can solve any societal problem provided that the government gives them the money to implement their crazy ideas.   Those ideas are simply communism cooked again.    What did Einstein say about insanity?    Of course, they always fail, but just like the 5 year plans in the Soviet Union, they really do think that just another 5 year plan and a bucketload of money will do the trick next time,comrade, for sure.    

   Public servants in cold war communist counties once thought they knew how to run an economy, but they always failed.    So today, totalitarian states allow the business class to get on with running the economy while they just keep political control.     This is how the system works in Russia, China, and a bunch of other totalitarian states.      The problem is, that such a system becomes completely corrupt.    It is also the system the Dems and their cronies are trying to create in the USA.       The USA under the Dems is attempting to create a Putinesque form of government where the politicians, top civil servants, top oligarchs, celebrities, and their media mates all scratch each others backs and keep the proles you despise, down.    And you can’t see past your ideological blinkers to figure out that they include you in that category?      

 Unsurprisingly, this is leading to a two tiered justice system, political corruption which is never addressed by the authorities who are paid to stop it, and the Putinesque persecution of political rivals.

 And all the Dems had to do to make you a True Believer is to have their media mates bombard you with the idea that “intelligent” young people think a certain way on a bunch of Liberal causes, and you fell for it, hook, line, and sinker.     Of course, if you do have any brains, then you must be feeling uncomfortable at how every Democrat controlled suburb, city, and state is going down the gurgler?    And with many Democrat cities beginning to look like the third world, with illegal immigrants and drugged out zombies camped out everywhere and sheeting all over the streets, it may have crossed your mind that Trump was absolutely correct to build a border wall?     And the people who supported him were not lunatics, they had simple common sense?    A quality you seem to be lacking?  

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Here's a list of conspiracy theories promoted by Trump.

@Bogan

Trump is a populist president and perhaps the most anti-science ever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conspiracy_theories_promoted_by_Donald_Trump

Bogan

@Dreamer

To Dreamer.     I was attempting to deprogram you by pointing out that by claiming that Trump supporters were all lunatics, you were in fact condemning almost the entire US working class, as well as the small business class.        I also showed you which demographics the Democrats represented, and why.     Instead of commenting upon what I have written, you simply post up some cut and paste article which claims that Trump is crazy because he supposedly believes in supposedly crazy conspiracy theories. 

 I am beginning to think that you are a complete waste of time.     You can’t think for yourself, and you can not formulate your own arguments.       Your response to anything directed at you is to simply post up some cut and paste from your impressive library of articles which reinforces your bizarre beliefs.     I can only assume that you are the product of an education system which told you what to think, not how to think.    No wonder the Dems found in you a fertile mind to accept their self aggrandising propaganda.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: You did bring up a point about how difficult it is to tax rich people.

@Bogan

"

The rich can also relocate to avoid paying higher taxes. Recently, Musk moved to Texas, a state that has no income tax.

France is another example of the limits of a wealth tax. After imposing higher taxes on the rich, more than 40,000 millionaires left the country."

https://www.npr.org/2021/11/13/1054711913/progressives-wealth-tax-super-rich-elon-musk-jeff-bezos

You used the analogy of the golden goose.

Maybe its me but I can't handle responding to long posts on many different topics as well as the other users.

Bogan

@Dreamer ;  Maybe its me but I can't handle responding to long posts on many different topics as well as the other users.

Since all you do is post up links I find that hard to believe.     Why don't you try debating?.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Well, who is the Trump base? White evangelical Christians approve of Trump 80%-85%. Yet are only 15% of the population.

"about 80 percent of white evangelicals consistently approved of President Trump's performance. While their numbers have dwindled from 21 to 15% of the U.S. population"

"That's right—15% of Americans account for around 25% of those who turn out to vote."

https://www.npr.org/2020/11/17/935910276/the-white-elephants-in-the-room

Anyways this is why I focus on white evangelical Christians. So who is the remaining of Trump's support base?

"But if you add in the other white Christian groups, it's about two thirds white and Christian."

Hmmm, targeting Christianity seems like a smart place to start weakening Trump's power base.

MayCaesar

I do not think Dreamer reads most of the things he responds to or reposts...

ZeusAres42

If Trump does end up in power do you think he will be harder on Russia?