Guilty schmilty....

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Trump is an anormal president.

I'm going to take this somewhat off topic if you don't mind. I don't think everyone understands that the 2016 election wasn't normal. That the liberals were telling the truth when they talked about how bad Trump was and how upset they were. 

This is not just another political slam to drum up votes. A lot of people would have been politically neutral if were not for Trump causing them to vote Hilary then Biden. Trump really could win the 2024 election.

I've tried to breach this subject before on a previous thread. Though I felt I was somewhat new to the subject and could have been more convincing. Sometimes a person can't tell the difference between sarcasm and a poorly worded rough draft. This is frustrating for me that I am having so much trouble articulating this point. Try try again is all I can do. Got any advice excon?

• Trump lies a lot way more than previous presidents and other politicians.
  

• Trump has fired people who disagree with him.
  
• Republicans have resigned because of Trump.
  

Number two and three make the Republican party more monolithic.

Sources:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/12/16/president-trump-has-made-false-or-misleading-claims-over-days/

https://www.thedailybeast.com/fox-business-host-stuart-varney-tells-joe-walsh-trump-has-never-lied

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/25/trump-administration-climate-crisis-denying-scientist

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Trump_administration_dismissals_and_resignations

jack

Dreamer said:

Try try again is all I can do. Got any advice excon?

Hello Dreamer:

Just keep speaking your truth.  Here's a little more of mine.

The North won the Civil War, but the South won the peace, at least regionally.  Slavery ended formally only to be replaced by a system that rendered the South’s once-enslaved persons free in name only. What persisted was one nation with two systems deeply divided by culture.   The trauma of electing the country’s first black president in this century reopened the wounds to white pride that never fully healed after Appomattox.  

I say, let's finish it.  After all, WE have the tanks.

excon

Dreamer

Argument Topic: I agree that we shouldn't underestimate Trump and Trumpism and quit when work is unfinished.

@jack

Rather than violence I would rather de-platform the haters from social media and a blue wave. When Biden won some had their faith shaken and left Qanon. Anyways I need a break, I feel like I am cleaning up other people's messes here. This website is a swamp of disinformation and hate.

Bogan

@Dreamer ;    Rather than violence I would rather de-platform the haters from social media and a blue wave.

Some "liberal" you are.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Trump is a demagogue.

Trump is a demagogue.

From Mistakes were made but not by me:

"Demagogues, by definition, need adoring crowds, and they create them using the timeless method of arousing fear. At his nomination speech at the Republican National Convention, Trump offered a litany of things to fear: violent crime, lawless migrants, "men, women, and children viciously mowed down" by terrorists, the rising crime rate (a lie; nationwide, crime has been declining for decades), and the damage and destruction" plaguing our cities."

I skipped a few lines

"Demagogues typically thrive by sowing division among citizens and inciting scapegoating and violence, and no American president before Trump fomented us-versus-them thinking to such as extreme degree, much less tacitly endorsed violence by "us" against "them." He refers to the free press, the very bedrock of a democracy as as "enemy of the people."

Voting season is coming up. I'm already requesting my mail in ballot. The time for debating is over. Organizing meetings, phone banking, and the ballot box. Blue wave, get as many democrats into office to punish republicans for voting Trump. Oust Trump who is already gaining voters due to indictments against him.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Trump lying demagogue.

 page 335-336 Mistakes book

"By the time of the presidential election in 2016, American citizens had plenty of information about Donald Trump: his promise to control the alleged hordes of Mexican rapists and other criminals who were illegally flooding the country; his insults directed at ethnic minorities, disabled people, and woman; his falsely claiming to have foot problems in order to avoid being drafted during the Vietnam War; his long history of refusing to pay his contractors for their work; his bankruptcies and refusal to release his tax returns (lying that he couldn't because he was being audited, which the IRS says in nonsense); his decades-long history of discrimination against African Americans who worked for him or tried to rent apartments in his buildings; the extramarital affairs that ended his marriages; the accusations of sexual misconduct by numerous woman; and his vulgar comment to Access Hollywood host Billy Bush that "when you're a star, you can do anything [with woman] -- grab 'em by the ." Any one of these facts would once doomed a candidate's chances,""

Over 30k lies in four years.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/24/trumps-false-or-misleading-claims-total-30573-over-four-years/

The fact checkers can't keep up with him. He might look somewhat normal on some fact checkers because they basically gave up because Trump used a firehose of falsehoods. This a communist technique.

Oh yes @Bogan let's let hate and disinformation spread and spread amplified by bots and troll farms. Spam is a form of censorship. If somebody makes a really good post, you can make 10 or more super verbose posts afterwords and the person with the great post will get little to no visibility. De-platform the haters, hold big tech accountable including Ebon Musk, blue wave.

Bogan

@Dreamer

I know how to debate, Dreamer, something you have yet to accomplish.        The fact remains that despite being persecuted by the Democrats at every opportunity, Trump was a great president who accomplished much.     Biden is a corrupt politician who has been corrupt since God knows when?   He is also senile and he is an embarrassment to the USA on the world stage.     Both Putin and Ji Jinpeng have become aggressive because they know that the US was now run by a corrupt and senile id-iot that they had in their pockets.     The USA is going backwards by every economic and social standard.     Trump is going to win the next Presidential election because too many former Democrat voters now realise that they made a huge mistake in voting for Biden and his corrupt administration.   Why haven't you figure it out yet?      

Dreamer

Argument Topic: What did Trump accomplish?

@Bogan

Trump's protectionism cost households money.  Trump intimidating Ukraine.

"He is accused of withholding nearly $400m (£327m) in congressionally approved military aid in order to pressure Ukraine's new president into launching an inquiry into his 2020 Democratic rival Joe Biden and Mr Biden's son."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50323605

Trump's rampant spread of misinformation?

"When I asked public health experts how the United States had reached 200,000 coronavirus deaths, several of them cited the misinformation coming from the White House and President Donald Trump himself. The president has questioned the efficacy of masks, hyped unproven treatments, and continues to promise a vaccine before experts and the drug companies themselves believe it will actually be ready"

https://www.vox.com/coronavirus-covid19/21497221/donald-trump-covid-19-coronavirus-news-misinformation-study

Maybe it was abandoning our allies in the middle east with the Afghanistan retreat he started before Biden became president? I mean it is possible that he did a few things correct to be fair, I am listening.

As for Biden, it barely matters whether your statements are true or not as long as Trump is much much worse than his opponent I will vote for any presidential candidate that can beat Trump.

Bogan

It is entirely appropriate for the President of the United States to withhold money from a client state in order to pressure that state into launching a valid investigation into a political rivals corruption within that client state.       I am flabbergasted that you somehow think that investigating an obviously corrupt US politician's shenanigans in another country is somehow insidious.

How you come to think that Donald Trump cost households money is beyond me?      Trump correctly put import controls on China because China was not living up to it's free trade commitments.    it was cheating, and making no bones about doing so.     Trump also wants all of those filthy rich multinational CEO's who live in the USA to stop exporting US jobs to foreign countries.     That is one reason why working class Americans love the guy.     Trump kept oil prices low which kept inflation low.    Higher energy costs causes everything to rise.     Biden is one of the climate cultists who hates electricity, coal, and oil.    That is way the US inflation rate is skyrocketing which is affecting the household budgets of even those foolish enough to vote for Biden.     

I have no idea of what you claim is Trump's misinformation.?    If you have some evidence, then submit it as an argument.    I will not read links.  This is a debate site, not a link exchange site.      The primary misinformation is coming from the oligarch owned media which interfered in the last election by claiming that Hunter's laptop, which detailed his and his fathers corruption, was "Russian disinformation."      Even today, the oligarch owned media is insisting that there is no evidence that Biden is corrupt, when the US Congress Oversight Committee has found an avalanche of it, and they keep discovering more and more.     Biden is going to be impeached.   And this time it will not be a farcical show trial like Trump had to endure twice.     This time it is for real with real evidence and real witnesses.  

As a lefty, I would have thought that you would have supported the idea of the USA withdrawing it's overseas troops, especially in an unwinnable war?      One reason why some hawkish Republicans hate Trump is because Trump wants to do just that.     I support him, although I hope he does not cut off support for Ukraine.       For too long, the USA has been the world's policeman and all it has got them is condemnation from people like yourself.     Trump is correct in  re establishing a more neutral foreign policy, and let the wimpy Eurotrash. who never stop sneering at the USA, fend for themselves.     Japan, Europe, and South Korea are big enough and rich enough to defend themselves.   

Trump is going to be the next President of the USA, berceuse the Dems have made such a mess of things that even dedicated Democrats realise that they have lost the plot.    In addition, the official corruption surrounding the Trump and Biden investigations is plain to anyone with two neurons to rub together.  I guess you don't qualify for that  advantage?   

Dreamer

Argument Topic: I agree that we should continue support for Ukraine.

@Bogan

You keep resurrecting these climate change arguments, didn't ZuesAres42 make an open debate challenge? Climate change exists and humans are the cause there is a 97% scientific consensus on this. Renewables are often the cheapest form of energy now that we can build them to scale.

That is an abuse of presidential power what Trump did in the Trump Ukraine scandal. 

"The complaint raised concerns about Trump using presidential powers to solicit foreign electoral intervention in the 2020 U.S. presidential election."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump–Ukraine_scandal

As for Biden being corrupt just check Snopes.

"The Bottom Line There is no evidence to suggest that Joe Biden, or the Biden family, received money in exchange for political actions."

https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/06/22/biden-bribe-claims/

You can put your tin foil hat on and be in denial but Snopes does a great job. Biden seems innocent.

China is losing jobs due to outsourcing and using protectionism. There is Africa and the Philippines. Free trade lowers costs, which increases buying power and free up capital to create new jobs. The United States overpays for sugar.

As for the false accusations of media oligarchy you are deep in conspiracy theory territory. The way we withdrew we mistreated our allies. We need to cultivate relationships with other countries.

Bogan

Dreamer quote  You keep resurrecting these climate change arguments, didn't ZuesAres42 make an open debate challenge?

He did, but I am unable to contribute to that topic for reasons unknown to me.     I tried to contribute but the program will not let me.     It is probably the CIA and the Fibbies blocking me.   

Dreamer quote   Climate change exists and humans are the cause there is a 97% scientific consensus on this.

But you can't tell us who conducted this poll, or how it was conducted?    Was there a secret ballot, or were the scientists expected to make public declarations?     If they made their views public and it did not conform the the Party line,  they could not only lose their jobs, but their entire careers as well.   Here is direct evidence for that premise from the Climategate emails.  



Dreamer quote     Renewables are often the cheapest form of energy now that we can build them to scale.   

Then why does every bodies electricity bills keep rising?     What you just wrote is not just a lie, it is a silly lie.     Everybody who pays electricity bills knows that it is a lie.   If you make blatant lies like that, you will lose all credibility with your audience.     My advice to you, is to only lie when you know that you can get away with it.     You dropped a clangor with that lie.   People are laughing at you.    

Dreamer quote     That is an abuse of presidential power what Trump did in the Trump Ukraine scandal. 

No it is not.     The President of the USA is quite within his rights to investigate whether US politicians are enriching themselves by using their official positions to commit acts of corruption in other countries.    

Dreamer quote      As for Biden being corrupt just check Snopes. 

If you or Mr Snopes think that Biden is not hopelessly corrupt, to the point of treason, then the two of you must have been living in a cave together for the last 12 months with no access to the media.

Dreamer quote     You can put your tin foil hat on and be in denial but Snopes does a great job. Biden seems innocent.

He only seems innocent if you are completely ignorant of the facts.      Last I heard, the Congressional Oversight Committee now has the emails between Joe (the Big Guy) and Hunter and can now start linking which payments were made for what, and by who.   

Dreamer quote    China is losing jobs due to outsourcing and using protectionism. There is Africa and the Philippines. Free trade lowers costs, which increases buying power and free up capital to create new jobs. The United States overpays for sugar.

China is losing jobs because they have upset their foreign business partners with their technology thefts, counterfeiting of foreign goods, and their biased legal system.    Foreign companies are fleeing China to other countries which have governments who appreciate their business, and don't try and cheat them.      China resembles Democrat run cities in this respect.     I have always wondered why the loony left is so intent on destroying the taxpayer base they rely upon to buy the votes of the unproductive and criminal classes, as well as the public service?     I guess it is because they are just stu-pid?   

Bogan

No evidence at all for Joe Biden's corruption, eh Dreamer?     This was released this morning from the US Congress.

BREAKING NEWS: House Ways & Means Committee Releases 700 Pages Of New Evidence Against Hunter Biden

jack

Bogan said:

No evidence at all for Joe Biden's corruption, eh Dreamer?     This was released this morning from the US Congress.

BREAKING NEWS: House Ways & Means Committee Releases 700 Pages Of New Evidence Against Hunter Biden

Hello B:

In the liberal circles I run in, Hunter is spelled differently than Joe.

excon

PS>  Yeah, it's a smarmy one liner, but it utterly DESTROYS you.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Here's a person that think your statement is incorrect about Biden.

@Bogan

Jim Leff
·
"The greatest propaganda coup of all time was the successful framing of Joe Biden - Joe freaking Biden of all people - as a corrupt criminal mastermind tyrant villain. The ultimate triumph of "I know you are but what am I?"
It not only succeeded (for nearly half the country), but it happened fast. Even before his kid’s laptop revelations rocked the galaxy, Republican friends of mine were moaning about this egregiously malevolent within a week of his inauguration.
If this could be sold, then propaganda can sell anything (gulp). I don't love Joe Biden (I don't fall in love with politicians), but the guy defines decency.
(And Dems failing to rally around this bulwark of democracy because he's not their most favorite flavor - and perhaps you've heard he's old? - represent the converse. The evil of fecklessness. Of sour vapidity.)"

I don't have the time nor ability to know everything. Yet, what I've read about Biden is he is innocent. How much effort can I spend on this? This is the communist technique of the firehose of misinformation make so many lies it is impossible to debunk them all. Maybe the are correct this one time, but who is going to believe them after they lie over and over and over. Like the Boy who cried Wolf. 

Bogan

@Dreamer

Dreamer quote   I don't have the time nor ability to know everything.

 Yet you can instantly find a link which you think will substitute for a debating position, whenever it suits you.         You are completely one eyed and don’t know much at all.   That is why it is so easy to beat you.      

 

 Dreamer quote       Yet, what I've read about Biden is he is innocent.

 If you bother to read anything, you are reading the wrong people.     I am sure that you just look for links where some nitwit tries to explain away every inconvenient reality to your receptive mind.        Letting other people think for you will not improve your own ability to think.  

 

Dreamer quote     How much effort can I spend on this?

 At the moment, you are spending no time at all on investigating whether your political opponents are correct.      One reason why I am all over you like a rash, is because I try to understand why my political opponents think the way they do.     I read leftist articles and I watch leftist programs, if only to shake my head and laugh at them.         

 

Dreamer quote        This is the communist technique of the firehose of misinformation make so many lies it is impossible to debunk them all.

 Another way of saying that is, that there is a firehose of real information clearly displaying that Joe Biden is a crook, and always has been a crook.       But like Pamela Johnson who genuinely thinks that the world is flat, you have this uncanny ability to ignore a firehose of facts which are extremely plentiful, and which cross connect into a believable picture.    And all because prefer to stick your fingers in your ears and say “nananana”, because you fear to look at what you don’t want to know.    

 

Dreamer quote     Maybe they are correct this one time, but who is going to believe them after they lie over and over and over. Like the Boy who cried Wolf. 

 Oh?   Is the firehose of real facts beginning to worry you?    It seems like you are starting to cross the Rubicon?    If your brain is just beginning to figure out that your political opponents are correct over Joe Biden’s obvious corruption, and your leftist buddies keep claiming that this is not true, then which side is lying?      And which side is lying about the other side’s supposed “lying.”

 A person with real intellect would be interested in finding out which side is correct, especially since they base their entire worldview upon the ideology of one of those sides.