Should there be a minimum wage?

theinfectedmaster

Argument Topic: Personally no.

I don't think that there should be a minimum wage because I just think money should be abolished altogether.

jack

theinfectedmaster said:

Should there be a minimum wage?

Hello again, the:

In a "free" market, there "should" be no need for a minimum wage..  But, our economy is skewed toward the moneyed class, and without help, the working poor would starve to death.  So, yeah.  There should be a minimum wage.

excon

anarchist100

theinfectedmaster said:

I don't think that there should be a minimum wage because I just think money should be abolished altogether.

Then how do you suppose civilization should run?

just_sayin

Argument Topic: Minimum wage hikes hurt minimum wage earners

One might ask how in the world can a minimum wage hike HURT low wage earners?  Surely, it should benefit them.  They are getting more per hour, right?  Well, if you never took Economics 101 you might think that.  I'm sure that for those who continue working for 40 hours a week and see no cuts to their benefits a minimum wage hike is a good thing.  The problem is that is not the reality that most low income earners face.
What happens is basic economics.  If an employer's costs go up, but his revenue doesn't then what must he do to continue make the same level of profits - he must find some way to cut his costs - specifically labor costs.  And how does he do it?  He either cuts workers hours, worker's benefits, or reduces the number of people he is employing.  The net result is that low income earners are making less.

Is there evidence to back that up you may ask.  Yes, in fact the majority of minimum wage impact studies say just that.  For example, the National Bureau of Economic Research's systematic review of minimum wage studies looked at 70 of the most well known minimum wage studies since 1992.  Here is the summary of their findings:

Summarizing the research literature this way, our key conclusions are as follows:
 • There is a clear preponderance of negative estimates in the literature. In our data, 79.2% of the estimated employment elasticities are negative, 53.8% are negative and significant at the 10% level or better, and 46.2% are negative and significant at the 5% level or better.
• This evidence of negative employment effects is stronger for teens and young adults, and more so for the less-educated.
• The evidence from studies of directly-affected workers points even more strongly to negative employment effects.
 • The evidence from studies of low-wage industries is less one-sided, with 64.5% of the estimated employment elasticities negative, but only 32.3% negative and significant at the 10% level or better, and the same percent negative and significant at the 5% level or better. 4

We suggest, however, that the evidence from low-wage industries is less informative about the effects of minimum wages on the employment of low-skill, low-wage workers. Overall, we conclude that the preferred estimates of authors of studies evaluating the employment effects of minimum wages in the United States, since the advent of the New Minimum Wage Research in 1992, paint a clear picture that is at odds with how this research is often summarized. In its totality, this body of evidence and its conclusions point strongly toward negative effects of minimum wages on employment of less-skilled workers, especially for the types of studies that would be expected to reveal these negative employment effects most clearly. One might argue about the validity of individual studies – a question we do not address in this paper. But our findings indicate that concluding that the body of research evidence fails to find disemployment effects of minimum wages requires discarding or ignoring most of the evidence. 

But how can that be true you ask?  Well, let's look at a few specific minimum wage studies and see what they found.  First, the Seattle Study used a very definitive way of doing its study, it literally tracked individuals making minimum wage before the minimum wage increase went into effect and then went back to those exact same people later and tracked what they were making.  The result showed that AFTER the minimum wage study that they were making $125 LESS a month in income, or $1,500 LESS a year.  Some had their hours cut, others lost benefits, and others lost their jobs as a result of the minimum wage increase.  It was so bad that the lead researcher commented that in the new market reality that some low skilled employees were now "unemployable".  That study conducted by University of Washington researchers concluded simply, “Seattle’s minimum wage ordinance appears to have delivered higher pay to experienced workers at the cost of reduced opportunity for the inexperienced.”  

Harvard Business Law reported on a minimum wage study it did a few years ago in California.  Here are their findings:

However, our data suggests that the way in which those hours were allocated among workers did change. For every $1 increase in the minimum wage, we found that the total number of workers scheduled to work each week increased by 27.7%, while the average number of hours each worker worked per week decrease by 20.8%. For an average store in California, these changes translated into four extra workers per week and five fewer hours per worker per week — which meant that the total wage compensation of an average minimum wage worker in a California store actually fell by 13.6%.

So what happened is that, in California, to offset the higher minimum wage, they hired more part-time workers without benefits, and then cut hours for everyone.  Minimum wage workers salary fell by 13.6%.

In New York, for example, the minimum wage has nearly doubled over a short seven-year period. The result has been significant job loss — nearly 6,000 restaurant jobs in 2018 alone — as well as small business closure. This is occurring when jobs in other industries where minimum wage workers are not as prevalent continue to grow.

A DC minimum wage hike a few years ago resulted in the loss of 700 restaurant jobs within a 3 month period:

So instead of adding 2,000 or more jobs per year, restaurants, hotels and the rest of the leisure and hospitality sector have lost about 700 jobs.

The first minimum wage in the US was done by union workers to ensure that Black workers, who worked more cheaply, would be shut out of their job market.  The minimum wage is still used today to hurt poor Black workers, specifically low skilled Black male workers.  The minimum wage has an adverse effect on the lowest skilled workers and those with a prison record, (pay attention @Jack).  It removes the lowest rungs on the ladder to success and makes it harder for them to get a job.  Why would an employer take a risk on an ex-con for a $15-$20 an hour minimum wage job when there are candidates without prison records who will work for that?  The answer is there is no logical reason he would.  Same goes for low skilled workers and teens.  Why make the investment in them, when there are people more likely to stay at your business longer than them for the same money?  

Barnardot

@just_sayin ;Why make the investment in them, when there are people more likely to stay at your business longer than them for the same money?  

Basically the basic thing is that thats where you get business owners who take advantage of people because the immigrants for example will take half pay which is double what they get in there home land then they realize it costs more to live here and next thing you know there out on there airs on the street. Where I work we knock off thousands of chickens and it is real skilled work but the problem is that the problem is that there is like a revolting door at the entrance of the factory and it is hard to find enough skilled workers to fill the gape. So then we get un skilled workers but they get paid at least a minimum wage because thats the law. I could be certain that knowing our boss who is a womans genitals would only pay those Spiks half pay if they were lucky so your got to have the rules to stick to.

just_sayin

@Barnardot
You are right that illegal labor hurts low wage workers.  Obama's Civil Rights Commission for Illegal Immigration claimed that illegal labor cost the average Black worker between $1,000 to $2,000 a year in reduced wages.  You can't have much negotiating power, if someone is able to work under the table.  So you are right about illegal labor hurting low skilled people's wages.

The thing is though, there is no reason why an employer would hire someone with a prison record, if he can hire someone who is working illegally off the books, or if he can hire a legal worker at minimum wage who doesn't have the baggage of an excon, shout out to ya @Jack.  The excon needs a chance to prove himself.  If policies have made it impossible for him to get a job, how will he do that?

Barnardot

@just_sayin ; You can't have much negotiating power, if someone is able to work under the table.  So you are right about illegal labor hurting low skilled people's wages.

See there you go again making some thing completely different out of some thing that never was even intimidated in the first place like all those bogus web sites you went on that make you make up the dimmest conclusions so that they can make heaps of money out of nits. 

So in essents the question is did I say illegal labor. I know your not going to answer that so Ill answer it for you. No I didn't any where at all. Did I say any thing remotely like illegal labor hurting low skilled people's wages. The answer is no I didn't any where at all. 

Does some one with a prison record have any thing at all to do with what I said. No it doesnt.

Did you say So you are right about illegal labor hurting low skilled people's wages. Yes you did.

So is it appropriate for people to label you as a lier a cheat and deceiver. Yes it is.

Dee

Well in the US which identifies as a "christian nation" the mostly " christian" population firmly believe that low paid workers are not deserving of a wage that covers the basic necessities of life as in decent housing , healthcare and education.

What's truly hilarious is they believe Jesus would have supported such a stance.

just_sayin

@Dee
I love how reliable you are.  I can always count on you to say something completely and factually wrong.  Jesus told a parable where a business man has a field that needs to be harvested and hires workers at different times of the day to harvest the crops.  At the end of the day the people who had worked the longest thought they should get more money than the guys who worked earlier.  But the parable stresses that he owner had a right to negotiate wages with the workers as he saw fit.  So it appears Jesus was more of a capitalist than you realized. 

Dee

@just_sayin

I know your knowledge of the bible is pretty atrocious and your ridiculous assertions that Jesus was an American style Republican  capitalist are hilarious, your version of the American Jesus is really silly..

You actually believe Jesus was in favour of the wealthy and would support a system that exploits the poorest....wow

You're actually saying that Jesus was in favour of denying workers decent housing , healthcare and education.

Here is a bible verse you're most likely unaware of from Paul ....Then to employers, Paul commanded, “Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair because you know that you also have a Master in heaven” (Colossians 4:1). Paul gave this command to employers because, just as their employees report to them, they have someone to report to—their Master in heaven

MayCaesar

Here is an analogy. Suppose the following proposition was made: "The minimum duration of sex between two individuals should be 1 hour". What would effects be? Would every instance of sex that would have otherwise taken less than 1 hour now be extended - or would instead the number of sex acts people engage in to begin with shrink dramatically?

If you (and I hope you) have picked the latter option, then I would like to hear from you why you believe that a minimum wage policy would have a different effect.

Barnardot

@just_sayin ;I can always count on you to say something completely and factually wrong.

Thats a bit rich coming from some one who makes a habit of doing just that big time and doesn't even have the guts to respond when hes been court out. Such is the nature of liers and cheats and deceivers who make a habit of saying offensive things to sick people and now offensive things to hard working people.

just_sayin

Dee said:

Here is a bible verse you're most likely unaware of from Paul ....Then to employers, Paul commanded, “Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair because you know that you also have a Master in heaven” (Colossians 4:1). Paul gave this command to employers because, just as their employees report to them, they have someone to report to—their Master in heaven

I'm so proud of you Dee.  You not only quoted a source, you appealed to the Bible.  Well done.  It would be intellectually dishonest and hypocritical to appeal to a source that your don't think is credible, so I'm glad you've decided the Bible is an authoritative source.  I do think you have engaged in eisegesis though.  Sorry, eisegesis - reading into something that is not there.  First, quick observation, Jews weren't allowed to have chattel slaves - it was forbidden.  Servanthood was voluntary.  It was by mutual agreement for a set period of time, no more than 6 years, and generally resulted in someone not just getting a 'salary' but land, and/or learning a trade.  Indeed the 'employer' should keep those agreements.  However, an employer can't afford to pay someone more than the job is worth.  It appears that is what you are saying.  Employers are not obligated to go into debt to hire someone.  It sounds like you have mistaken the meaning of the passage you quoted.

A basic course in economics would help you here.  You can't have costs greater than your revenue.  You can't even have costs equal to your revenue, because if you aren't making a profit, what's the point of wasting your time and resources.  Let's take a real world example.  California is now requiring a $20 an hour minimum wage for fast food workers.  The average had been $16.60 (BLS) an hour in CA.  McDonald's warned this would cost people their jobs.  And it will.  The harsh reality is that over the last decade McDonald's has cut its number of employees worldwide in half.  Yep, I said that right - McDonald's response to minimum wage increases is just to cut its employees, or to reduce their hours.  Now, if you go to McDonald's there are kiosks.  McDonald's is currently experimenting with automated line cooks.  And it is obvious why.  Kiosks are cheaper than human employees, and while there may be an initial start up cost for automation, over the long haul its cheaper for them. So the number of entry level jobs are disappearing.  Which makes it harder for low skilled workers and those with a record to find a job.

A little cited fact is that most of the new jobs that Biden has bragged about creating are part-time jobs.  That's becoming more and more, the norm for low paying jobs, such as you find in food service or hospitality industries  So, what is happening nationally is that as the minimum wage has increased, more people have had to get 2 or more jobs to make ends meet, because their employer cut their hours and then because businesses raised prices, inflation has made what the person was making have even less value.  Thank you liberals for making everyone more miserable.   

Dee

@just_sayin


I'm so proud of you Dee.  You not only quoted a source, you appealed to the Bible.

I quote sources all the time , you should try it some time. I'm not " appealing " to the bible I'm correcting you on the bible.


  Well done.  It would be intellectually dishonest and hypocritical to appeal to a source that your don't think is credible,

What a ridiculous notion, correcting one on the contents of a book of contradictory nonsense is to clearly demonstrate that the book is contradictory nonsense.

so I'm glad you've decided the Bible is an authoritative source. 

No , I never decided that at all.

I do think you have engaged in eisegesis though.  Sorry, eisegesis - reading into something that is not there

As I just said yet again clearly demonstrating the bible is mostly contradictory nonsense.


.  First, quick observation, Jews weren't allowed to have chattel slaves - it was forbidden

You forgot to mention Jews were allowed slaves but had to treat their Hebrew slaves better than others

.  Servanthood was voluntary. 

Ah you' re trying to say slaves were " voluntary servants " now , how utterly hilarious. Would you like a few verses on how "you may buy your slaves from the nations around you"?

 It was by mutual agreement for a set period of time, no more than 6 years, and generally resulted in someone not just getting a 'salary' but land, and/or learning a trade.  Indeed the 'employer' should keep those agreements.

More lies , would you like the verse where it says " slaves are your property for life" ?


  However, an employer can't afford to pay someone more than the job is worth

An employer has a duty to pay a basic wage that covers the necessities of life,  you believe Jesus would abhor such , do explain?

.  It appears that is what you are saying.  Employers are not obligated to go into debt to hire someone.  It sounds like you have mistaken the meaning of the passage you quoted.

Your  re - interpretation of the verse was anticipated.

A basic course in economics would help you here.  You can't have costs greater than your revenue.  You can't even have costs equal to your revenue, because if you aren't making a profit, what's the point of wasting your time and resources.  Let's take a real world example.  California is now requiring a $20 an hour minimum wage for fast food workers.  The average had been $16.60 (BLS) an hour in CA.  McDonald's warned this would cost people their jobs.  And it will.  The harsh reality is that over the last decade McDonald's has cut its number of employees worldwide in half.  Yep, I said that right - McDonald's response to minimum wage increases is just to cut its employees, or to reduce their hours.  Now, if you go to McDonald's there are kiosks.  McDonald's is currently experimenting with automated line cooks.  And it is obvious why.  Kiosks are cheaper than human employees, and while there may be an initial start up cost for automation, over the long haul its cheaper for them. So the number of entry level jobs are disappearing.  Which makes it harder for low skilled workers and those with a record to find a job.

A basic course in Republican style economics is hardly convincing, it's a bit like American revisionist history . Minimun wage laws have worked throughout the world.

You're making the ridiculous argument that minimun wage laws are why technology as in automation is a thing,  that's pretty hilarious.

A little cited fact is that most of the new jobs that Biden has bragged about creating are part-time jobs.

I'm not American I couldn't care less about Biden or your ridiculous 2 party political system , I know you're unaware of this but there's a whole world out there that couldny give a f- ck about the US 

  That's becoming more and more, the norm for low paying jobs, such as you find in food service or hospitality industries  So, what is happening nationally is that as the minimum wage has increased, more people have had to get 2 or more jobs to make ends meet, because their employer cut their hours and then because businesses raised prices, inflation has made what the person was making have even less value.  Thank you liberals for making everyone more miserable.   

Minimun wage laws work over here , but thankfully   Amercian christians don't have any  influence ,you know the type , those who think only certain working  Americans are entitled to the necessities of life as in decent healthcare, education and housing.

That's the question you refuse to address as in how does one pay rent, gain healthcare and higher education on minimun wage?

Barnardot

@just_sayin ;Thank you liberals for making everyone more miserable.   

And thank you to liers and cheats who deliberately miss quote what others say to push there miserable agenda. For example a real low down gutter crawler might deliberately interpret immigrants to mean illegal immigrants and ex convicts just so they can deceive others to believe there utter liers. And like all liers and cheats they are sissy girlie boys and not man enough to fess up when there been outed. Such is the nature of diss honest lying people. 

Dreamer

Argument Topic: We need to at least the federal $7.25 min wage.

Abolishing the min wage is an extreme point of view. People who cannot read English need some protections.

Deebs

Argument Topic: Minimum wage has its advantages and disadvantages

In theory, having a minimum wage is a good idea. It means that workers actually get money and can go home at the end of the day to eat. In practice, however, this is not the case.

The minimum wage is so low right now that it really doesn't do much good, especially with the way the economy is going. Why even bother having a minimum wage if workers can't afford to eat from that amount? It's an uphill battle, and it seems that the only way to make a difference is to increase the minimum wage. But if that happens, employers will start laying off people and employees become stuck in this never ending poverty loop.

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

Abolishing the min wage is an extreme point of view. People who cannot read English need some protections.

Something being "extreme" is hardly an argument in favor or against anything. The position that unicorns do not exist is very extreme; a more moderate position would be "there are some unicorns out there, but not too many" - does not in any way make the latter position more sensible.

just_sayin

@Dee
Rather than be bothered by your attack on people of faith, I will once again point to the evidence that minimum wage laws harm many minimum wage workers:

For example, the National Bureau of Economic Research's systematic review of minimum wage studies looked at 70 of the most well known minimum wage studies since 1992.  Here is the summary of their findings:

Summarizing the research literature this way, our key conclusions are as follows:
 • There is a clear preponderance of negative estimates in the literature. In our data, 79.2% of the estimated employment elasticities are negative, 53.8% are negative and significant at the 10% level or better, and 46.2% are negative and significant at the 5% level or better.
• This evidence of negative employment effects is stronger for teens and young adults, and more so for the less-educated.
• The evidence from studies of directly-affected workers points even more strongly to negative employment effects.
 • The evidence from studies of low-wage industries is less one-sided, with 64.5% of the estimated employment elasticities negative, but only 32.3% negative and significant at the 10% level or better, and the same percent negative and significant at the 5% level or better. 4

The 2019 study of a $15 minimum national wage by the CBO said the following:

•  1.3 million other workers would become jobless, according to CBO’s median estimate.  With a  possible decrease of 3.7 million workers.
• would reduce total real (inflation-adjusted) family income in 2025 by $9 billion, or 0.1 percent.  So for the average family real incomes would DECREASE.  

Now, for those making minimum wage who don't have their hours cut, their benefits cut, nor lose their jobs, will definitely benefit.  I don't deny that.  However, those who focus only on the benefits and ignore that the overall impact of such policies harms low wage workers are just picking and choosing their data while ignoring the harm their policies cause.  

I've pointed out that most minimum wage studies shows it harms low skilled workers, teens, and Black workers.  I've specifically mentioned at least half a dozen studies already that say this. Such as this one from Harvard Business Law on a California minimum wage hike a few years ago.  Here are their findings:

However, our data suggests that the way in which those hours were allocated among workers did change. For every $1 increase in the minimum wage, we found that the total number of workers scheduled to work each week increased by 27.7%, while the average number of hours each worker worked per week decrease by 20.8%. For an average store in California, these changes translated into four extra workers per week and five fewer hours per worker per week — which meant that the total wage compensation of an average minimum wage worker in a California store actually fell by 13.6%.

I noticed you ignored those facts.  Maybe attacking someone's faith is more important to you than addressing factual data that proves you wrong.  But your failure to address the facts presented to you, doesn't disprove them.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Hi, welcome to debate island, waves. :)

@Deebs

I agree. The problem with increasing minimum wage is it can accelerate current trends that harm workers. For example the local Whole Foods and Target increased their hourly wages of their own accord, no law forced them. 

People celebrated until they realized their hours were cut to part time and they lost benefits. Their total compensation per hour ironically decreased due to loss of benefits.

A min wage increase can encourage companies to automate, contract work, and outsource the jobs. Similar to how methods to stop outsourcing can backfire and the entire company goes overseas.

"I was paid 10 cents an hour to do menial work that taught no skills or life lessons." Dyjuan Tatro

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/sep/22/us-prison-labor-is-cruel-and-pointless-legalized-slavery-i-know-first-hand

 I'd be more worried about minimum wage loop holes for example tipped workers, people with disabilities the Goodwill sheltered workshops scandal, unpaid internships, and prison labor can all be far below the federal min wage. A person getting paid minimum wage of $7.25 is making 72.5 times per hour as someone making 10 cents an hour.

"Workers With Disabilities Can Earn Just $3.34 An Hour" Alina Selyukh

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/17/912840482/u-s-agency-urges-end-to-below-minimum-wage-for-workers-with-disabilities

Dee

@just_sayin


Rather than be bothered by your attack on people of faith, I will once again point to the evidence that minimum wage laws harm many minimum wage workers:

That's not an "attack" it's an opinion supported by fact which is why you refuse to answer why you think only the majority middle class ( mostly christian) Americans are entitled to a
living wage?

A living wage BTW is one that covers the basic necessities of life. As usual despite being asked to address this 3 times now you refuse, whys that?

•  1.3 million other workers would become jobless, according to CBO’s median estimate.  With a  possible decrease of 3.7 million workers.
• would reduce total real (inflation-adjusted) family income in 2025 by $9 billion, or 0.1 percent.  So for the average family real incomes would DECREASE.  

Now, for those making minimum wage who don't have their hours cut, their benefits cut, nor lose their jobs, will definitely benefit.  I don't deny that.  However, those who focus only on the benefits and ignore that the overall impact of such policies harms low wage workers are just picking and choosing their data while ignoring the harm their policies cause.  

I've pointed out that most minimum wage studies shows it harms low skilled workers, teens, and Black workers.  I've specifically mentioned at least half a dozen studies already that say this. Such as this one from Harvard Business Law on a California minimum wage hike a few years ago.  Here are their findings:


I'm not remotely interested in a Republican party political speech on economics,  The Republican party are 80 per cent agreed that 7: 86  dollars is a terrific wage for a sizable amount of fellow Americans as only certain Americans are entitled to lifes necessities.

So again American " christian" economics which believes the poor should remain poor doesn't apply in most civilised societies.


I noticed you ignored those facts. 

" Facts" LOL ..... from a man who believes resurrected Zombies walk on water.......sure 

Maybe attacking someone's faith is more important to you than addressing factual data that proves you wrong.

Maybe you addressing the fact that you claim to follow Jesus and yet you firmly  believe only white middle class Americans are entitled to a living wage yet refuse to explain why.

  But your failure to address the facts presented to you, doesn't disprove them.

You didn't present facts you presented and preached  regurgitated Republican clap trap.

Barnardot

@just_sayin ; our data suggests......we found......these changes translated.....which meant 

Yep lier boy certainly knows how to find a load crap disguised as evidence and hopes no body notices the non committal and total invalidness of it. In the real word we call that deception. no end to being dis honest is there.

just_sayin

Barnardot said:

@just_sayin ; our data suggests......we found......these changes translated.....which meant 

Yep lier boy certainly knows how to find a load crap disguised as evidence and hopes no body notices the non committal and total invalidness of it. In the real word we call that deception. no end to being dis honest is there.

I've cited sources that have been quite specific.  They have identified the exact dollar amount that minimum wage workers lost as a result of the minimum wage hike in Seattle.  One source I cited identified the specific number of restaurant jobs lost in the 3 months after DC implemented its minimum wage hike - 700.  I cited the CBO's report on the impacts of a $15 minimum wage.  It said that family incomes would go down by $9 billion or 0.1 percent.  I cited a California minimum wage study that said which meant that the total wage compensation of an average minimum wage worker in a California store actually fell by 13.6%.  That's some pretty specific numbers there.

Barnardot

@just_sayin ;I've cited sources that have been quite specific.

Hear we go again. No you didn't. It is the opposite. They are quite deliberately vague and I showed you why and you deliberately diverted to your non sense crap about figures and deliberately refusing to respond to the vague quotes that were clearly pointed out to you. Just like the lieing about the illegal immigrants and prisoners that you still refuse to respond to.

Once again lier boy shows every one what hes made of and how dishonest and deceiving he is. He just cant stop him self can he.

just_sayin

Barnardot said:

@just_sayin ;I've cited sources that have been quite specific.

Hear we go again. No you didn't. It is the opposite. They are quite deliberately vague and I showed you why and you deliberately diverted to your non sense crap about figures and deliberately refusing to respond to the vague quotes that were clearly pointed out to you. Just like the lieing about the illegal immigrants and prisoners that you still refuse to respond to.

Once again lier boy shows every one what hes made of and how dishonest and deceiving he is. He just cant stop him self can he.

The reason that I 'diverted' to the 'figures' is because the 'figures' show the specific impacts that a minimum wage increase had or win the CBO case the projected impacts.  I focused on the 'figures' because they obliterated your misleading comment about them being 'vague'.  The studies I cited showed specific numbers of people who lost jobs (700 - DC), the Seattle study cited a specific amount that the average minimum wage worker's wages went down ($125 a month), and the California study cited the specific percentage a minimum wage earners compensation fell -   "which meant that the total wage compensation of an average minimum wage worker in a California store actually fell by 13.6%".  

You were just being dishonest.

I've already cited the Obama Administration's Civil Rights Commission on Illegal Immigration as showing that illegal labor costs the average Black worker between $1000 - $2,000 a year in reduced wages.   I'm not sure what you want to know about excons, but it is harder for them to get jobs, and studies have shown, see the Seattle study, that when minimum wage laws go into effect it becomes harder for them to find work.

Barnardot

@just_sayin

our data suggests

does not at all 

show the specific impacts 

It is speculation and opinion and does not say a single assertion at all. Does it. No it doesn't.

Now stop making up cheap excuses as to why you diverted the topic.

just_sayin

McDonalds and Chipotle both announced that prices would go up in California to compensate for the $20 minimum wage.  McDonalds said the law will wipe out smaller restaurants and help them eliminate some of their competition.  Both Walmart and Target have responded by cutting people's hours and benefits.