Should vaccines be mandatory?

Dreamer

Argument Topic: False dichotomy and oversimplifcation fallacies.

@Phite

The quotes are being taken out of context 

"And, while the maximum number of thermal cycles a coronavirus PCR test will do is typically around 35-40, many positive samples will be detectable at much lower levels. "

https://fullfact.org/health/cycle-threshold-values/

Phite

@Dreamer

If my quote was taken out of context, please provide the proper context.

Dreamer

Phite

Facui was discussing contagiousness not infection.

"Sexton’s claim confused the PCR test’s ability to confirm a COVID-19 infection with the test’s ability to determine contagiousness - Fauci was discussing the latter"

"However, the experts said, PCR tests are the gold standard for detecting infection"

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-covid-hoax-idUSL1N2PA0JO/

Phite

@Dreamer

How can it be the gold standard when it has never been approved for the purpose? You do realize that it had to be given emergency authorization, don't you?  Do you really believe that a test that has not been approved for this kind of purpose has been used for that purpose anyway, and often enough that is has become the gold standard?

If you believe that, why don't you provide something to show a similar situation in which the PCR-test was the diagnostic tool of choice.  

How long do you believe the PCR-test has been the "gold standard" for this purpose? It was declared to be the gold standard in January of 2020.  Where else has it been used before it was used for covid?

Also, if I provide a video of an interview with fauci in which he clearly states that a cycle-threshold of anything over 35 is too high to give meaningful results, will you accept what he says as true?  That would be reasonable.  However, if you believe that I have taken his statement concerning an inappropriate cycle-threshold out of context, you're going to have to provide the proper context.

Here is the video:

And here is the FDA recommending that labs use a cycle-threshold of 40: https://www.fda.gov/media/134922/download

They can't both be right, now can they?

Dreamer

@Phite

The video is 36 minutes long. You seem to have buried deep on the subject, you take the time to find the timestamp when Fauci made the claim. There is always some small disagreement among experts. I think both answers are great answers based upon expert opinion.

Let's put this another way there is several competing theories for abiogensis. Only one is correct, but they are all great theories based upon science. All of them reinforce the abiogensis hypothesis and all would have to be falsified in order to disprove abiogensis. 

Deniers try to take advantage saying several theories makes for a weaker argument than one, but they are incorrect. That each cast doubt on the others, which is true, but they forget that each reinforce the hypothesis of abiogensis making a stronger case in total.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Earth

A second analogy is that the Earth is 4.54 billion years old. If you try to determine the exact age of the Earth there is more uncertainty. If we wanted to determine the age of the Earth to the exact day it would be much more difficult.

Phite

Dreamer said:

@Phite

The video is 36 minutes long.

I don't recall asking you how long the video lasts.   What I asked you was who you believe: the FDA or fauci.  You seem to believe that, though their views are diametrically opposed to each other, they somehow agree. So, in the interest of clarity before we continue, please tell me what you believe fauci is saying about a PCR-test cycle-threshold of anything over 35.  It begins at the 3:45 mark.

John_C_87

As an unratified United Sates Constitutional Right with California lethal injections are a form of legislated vaccine. It is one of those facts that sound funny until you understand it is true. Don’t worry California does not support laws of right they support only crimes of law. Again, funny until you think of how true it is sometimes as people, we simply do not understand the connections they create to established justice until we read them out loud. As a complete united state with the 1st amendment and not a broken 1st amendment state of the union.

ZeusAres42

@Dreamer

Argument Topic: I will try to answer your questions.

@ZeusAres42

"

• All vaccines? 
• Some vaccines
• Untested vaccines? 
• Vaccines currently in trial?
• Anything other to be more specific? 

Oh, And what grounds? What probabl cause, etc? "

• No, not all vaccines.
• Yes, some vaccines.
• No, Sputnik V vaccine was untested in Aug 2020 and shouldn't be used by anyone.
• No, but exceptions should be considered if late in trials, passed 2 out 3 trials and a deadly pandemic is raging. Egg and spoon race.
  
•  MMR, flu, and covid-19 vaccines school mandates with medical exemptions.  Rabies vaccine for cats and dogs.
  

Vaccines save lives. Not vaccinating is objectively immoral. See previous comment:

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/168516/#Comment_168516

Great, now we have a specific debate topic that can be eplored: "Should there be vaccine madates for MMR, flu, and covid-19 in schools with medical exemptions, as well as mandated vaccines regarding  Rabies for cats and dogs?"

Ok, I appreciate your specific recommendations regarding vaccine mandates, especially the inclusion of medical exemptions. This approach demonstrates a balance between public health needs and individual medical circumstances. However, there are a few aspects worth considering.

Firstly, the rationale behind mandating vaccines for schools often hinges on the severity and contagiousness of the diseases they prevent. Measles, mumps, rubella, and COVID-19 are highly contagious and can have serious health consequences, supporting the case for mandating these vaccines in school settings. In contrast, while the flu is highly contagious, it generally has milder effects in the majority of the population, especially children. This raises the question of whether the flu vaccine should be mandated to the same extent, or if its mandate should be more flexible. That being said, it also seems like Covid-19 is going the same way as flu. 

Another important aspect is herd immunity and community health. Mandating vaccines in schools plays a crucial role in achieving herd immunity, which protects those who cannot be vaccinated due to medical reasons. It's important to discuss how these mandates contribute to wider community health and the threshold of vaccination coverage needed to achieve this.

The inclusion of medical exemptions is critical to ensure that mandates are fair and do not put individuals with specific health conditions at risk. However, the criteria for medical exemptions need to be clear and stringent to prevent misuse. We need to consider how we can ensure that these exemptions are granted appropriately.

The recommendation for rabies vaccines in pets is well-founded, given the severity of rabies and the risk it poses to both animals and humans. This also brings into focus the broader topic of zoonotic diseases and the importance of controlling these through pet vaccinations.

Furthermore, mandating vaccines can sometimes lead to public resistance, particularly if the mandates are perceived as overreaching. We should consider how public trust and compliance can be maximized in implementing these mandates. Would educational campaigns or incentives be effective?

In sum, the decision to mandate a vaccine involves a comprehensive analysis of the disease's severity, the vaccine's cost-effectiveness, safety, efficacy, and broader societal implications. The goal is to protect public health in the most efficient and equitable way possible while considering the diverse factors that impact health policy decisions.

ZeusAres42

@Phite

This debate is focused on policy prescriptions regarding vaccinations. The topic of PCR tests and their efficacy is not directly relevant to this discussion. If you wish to explore that subject, I suggest creating a separate debate for it.

Phite

ZeusAres42 said:

@Dreamer

Argument Topic: I will try to answer your questions.

@ZeusAres42

"

• All vaccines? 
• Some vaccines
• Untested vaccines? 
• Vaccines currently in trial?
• Anything other to be more specific? 

Oh, And what grounds? What probabl cause, etc? "

• No, not all vaccines.
• Yes, some vaccines.
• No, Sputnik V vaccine was untested in Aug 2020 and shouldn't be used by anyone.
• No, but exceptions should be considered if late in trials, passed 2 out 3 trials and a deadly pandemic is raging. Egg and spoon race.
  
•  MMR, flu, and covid-19 vaccines school mandates with medical exemptions.  Rabies vaccine for cats and dogs.
  

Vaccines save lives. Not vaccinating is objectively immoral. See previous comment:

https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/comment/168516/#Comment_168516

Another important aspect is herd immunity and community health. Mandating vaccines in schools plays a crucial role in achieving herd immunity,

Concerning the covid shot, how do you see it creating herd immunity when it does not prevent transmission?

If you'll recall, the manufacturers admitted that they did not test the experimental injection for transmission.  And then they said it will keep you out of the hospital, which makes it a treatment . . . for something I don't have.  That’s why, in September of 2021, the CDC changed its official definition of the term “vaccine” to exclude the term “immunity.” The deception is so transparent.

ZeusAres42

@Phite

Again, not relevant. If you wish start another debate and I would be more than happy in demonstrating how you are misinterpreting the science here.  

Phite

@ZeusAres42

Quite right.  Like you said, we can pick this up where we left off on a more appropriate thread where we will discuss the science: https://www.debateisland.com/discussion/7323/should-covid-19-vaccines-be-mandated/p5 ;

See you there.

ZeusAres42

@Phite

Again,  The topic of PCR tests and their efficacy is not relevant to this discussion. If you wish to explore that subject, I suggest creating a separate debate for it. I am done repeating myself. @Dreamer something tells me @Phite will just derail the debate here. Dont't get sucked into it. 

theinfectedmaster

@ZeusAres42 I don't think untested vaccines should be mandatory.

theinfectedmaster

@21CenturyIconoclast You can still get COVID even by praying. Praying doesn't always work.

theinfectedmaster

@ZeusAres42 I wouldn't say that that topic was irrelevant.