Are vaccines a human right?

theinfectedmaster

Argument Topic: Yes they most certainly are.

People have the right to protect their health, which vaccines do just that, so making vaccines illegal only just violates human rights because it violates the right for people to be able to protect their health.

just_sayin

People do not have a 'right' to someone else's labor or time.  Since vaccines are a product, it is unethical to say that a pharmaceutical company must make it for you.  You can argue you have the right to buy a vaccine, but you do not have a right to force someone to make it and give it to you.  

Dee

@just_sayin

You can argue you have the right to buy a vaccine, but you do not have a right to force someone to make it and give it to you.  

It's free over here and no one forced anyone. I have free healthcare and I'm also tax free on my earnings.

It's truly incredible you insist even the poorest should pay for vaccines , are you sure you're a christian?  If you say " yes" you're not exactly keen on helping or caring or the poor are you?

jack

theinfectedmaster said:

Are vaccines a human right?

Hello again, the: 

Vaccines are inanimate and are not capable of being a right.  "Having" the right to access vaccines is another question..  Rights are a human construct.  As such, we can allocate them as we please, and I see no great push to make them available to the entire world at no cost.  So, I'd have to say no, vaccines are not a human right.

excon

MichaelElpers

@theinfectedmaster @Dee

You still seem to be confused about what a right is.
A right to protect your health or right to life refers personal freedom to access not something someone else must supply.
If you think its a right than both of you are obligated to supply these to everyone in the world.  It would be illegal for you not to supply it this to a requesting individual.

Just because a government may supply vaccines to for free doesnt equate to a right.
For example, I have access to 911 or police, roads, ect that government supplies but it is not a right. 

I want a vaccine for all disease as is my right.  You are violating my rights if you cant supply that.

Dee

@MichaelElpers

You still seem to be confused about what a right is.

Rights are legal, social, or ethical principles of freedom or entitlement; that is, rights are the fundamental normative rules about what is allowed of people or owed to people according to some legal system, social convention, or ethical theory.




A right to protect your health or right to life refers personal freedom to access not something someone else must supply.

But people do supply it as its seen as part of a progressive inclusive society where I live anyway 

If you think its a right than both of you are obligated to supply these to everyone in the world.

I'm obligated to no one actually only by my choice. 

  It would be illegal for you not to supply it this to a requesting individual.

Nonsense.

Just because a government may supply vaccines to for free doesnt equate to a right.

It does where I live as does free healthcare which I wouldn't pay for anyway 


For example, I have access to 911 or police, roads, ect that government supplies but it is not a right. 

You need to move country.

I want a vaccine for all disease as is my right.  You are violating my rights if you cant supply that.

Well you go and fight for that and change your stingy government that cares more about spending trillions on the military instead of citizens health 

MichaelElpers

@Dee

"Rights are legal, social, or ethical principles of freedom or entitlement; that is, rights are the fundamental normative rules about what is allowed of people or owed to people"

What does entitled or owed mean to you?
What happens if you cannot supply what you have stated is entitled to someone in a legal system?

Dee

@MichaelElpers

***What does entitled or owed mean to you?***

It means that I've been promised something by goverment in this case that's my right.

***What happens if you cannot supply what you have stated is entitled to someone in a legal system?***

What happens? What do you think?
It's happening in the US where women are being refused the right to bodily autonomy 

Barnardot

@theinfectedmaster ;so making vaccines illegal only just violates

Are you for reel making up the most ridiculous straw man arguments. Since when has any one in the universe ever considered that vaccines should be made illegal.

And what about all the other totally meaningless shallow topics you are littering the site with.

What I'm saying is that this looks like your swan song like every other luny who comes on here plastering the site with irrelevant dum crap and escalating like a population of amebas in a petry dish. And just like the rest of them including the last one I will give you 2 weeks before you either burn out or get kicked off this site.

MichaelElpers

@Dee

It promised in a way that must be delivered.  And when a right cant be delivered or is taken away there are legal consequences.

Who are you throwing in jail or putting into slavery when this so called vaccine right cannot be delivered.

Dee

MichaelElpers

It promised in a way that must be delivered. And when a right cant be delivered or is taken away there are legal consequences.Who are you throwing in jail or putting into slavery when this so called vaccine right cannot be delivered.

But it's always been delivered since the 1863,  I don't worry about things that haven't happened what a  strange way to life 

MichaelElpers

@Dee

No they havent.  First off their is not a vaccine for every disease.  So you are already setting an odd standard...vaccines are a right, well only if theyve been invented for a specific disease.
For any disease not yet cured youve now made everyone culpable for not creating one.

Next when they have been invented you have potential supply demand issue.  For example, when covid hit not every single person had a chance to receive the vaccine right away. 
So whose rights are you going to take away?  Who gets the initial batch?

MayCaesar

theinfectedmaster said:

People have the right to protect their health, which vaccines do just that, so making vaccines illegal only just violates human rights because it violates the right for people to be able to protect their health.

Would you also agree that making murder of sick people illegal violates human rights because people have the right to protect their health and murdering sick people does just that?

Dee

@MichaelElpers


No they havent

Yes they have ever hear of smallpox.

.  First off their is not a vaccine for every disease. 

Why who said there was?

 So you are already setting an odd standard...

I've set no standard , I've quoted a fact regarding my experiences.

vaccines are a right, well only if theyve been invented for a specific disease.

What are you on about?


For any disease not yet cured youve now made everyone culpable for not creating one.

Strange assertion and simply not true..

Next when they have been invented you have potential supply demand issue.

And?

  For example, when covid hit not every single person had a chance to receive the vaccine right away. 

And?

So whose rights are you going to take away?  Who gets the initial batch?

That's on the government not me , I prefer not to get it first so I can gauge possible side effects in others.

MichaelElpers

@Dee

"That's on the government not me , I prefer not to get it first so I can gauge possible side effects in others."

Thats dodging the question.  The government would have to be violating someones rights.
So now you are making a right, protected by the government, that the government themselves are going to have to violate?

The whole point of rights are that they are equally applied to everyone.  No one has priority over another and they dont require something from someone else or an entity like a company or government.

True rights like freedom of speech, right to own a firearm, right to life are equal to everyone and requires no money, time, or labor from anyone.

Dee

@MichaelElpers


Thats dodging the question. The government would have to be violating someones rights.

No it's not.How are your rights violated if your down for the vaccine and you get it?

So now you are making a right, protected by the government, that the government themselves are going to have to violate?

How are they violating it?

The whole point of rights are that they are equally applied to everyone

No , it depends on the right in my case anyway.

. No one has priority over another and they dont require something from someone else or an entity like a company or government.

Priority goes on age , health , vulnerability etc,etc. Actually I've a right to tax free earnings which I do require and get directly from government. 

True rights like freedom of speech, right to own a firearm, right to life are equal to everyone and requires no money, time, or labor from anyone.

Nonsense , that's a typically Amercan slant on things and all the more remarkable seeing as women are denied bodily autonomy in the US.

MichaelElpers

@Dee

They are violating it because the vaccine cannot be equally distributed to everyone.

What rights change base on a persons age, gender, race ect? Any that do would be racist, sexist, ageist.

You seem to think a right is anything provided by the government (tax free).  Rights are protected by government not provided by them.  Again police would protect my right to free speech, i have no right to a personal police office.

You keep bringing up bodily autonomy which has nothing to with this thread but based on your opinion the government has the ability to have priority characteristics on peoples rights so really any priority determination should not be a problem.
You have a very authoritarian viewpoint especially considering you deflect to "government will decide" who gets priority rights

Dee

@MichaelElpers

They are violating it because the vaccine cannot be equally distributed to everyone.

Not at all , the vaccine was readily available to all over here

What rights change base on a persons age, gender, race ect? Any that do would be racist, sexist, ageist.

Well I would consider the elderly and vulnerable receiving a vaccine before a healthy citizen but that's just me not being selfish.

You seem to think a right is anything provided by the government (tax free).  Rights are protected by government not provided by them.  Again police would protect my right to free speech, i have no right to a personal police office.

Yes that is one type of right there's also human rights which can be  done out of empathy. My right to be tax free was provided by my government.

You keep bringing up bodily autonomy which has nothing to with this thread but based on your opinion the government has the ability to have priority characteristics on peoples rights so really any priority determination should not be a problem.

I don't keep bringing it up , I mentioned it once.. You mean your government uses its abilty to dictate to women their preferences regards their bodily autonomy.

You have a very authoritarian viewpoint especially considering you deflect to "government will decide" who gets priority rights

I dont actually but I get how you might  feel that way especially since I've a right to free healthcare/ housing ,  I'm tax free also , sounds like the green eyed monster has gotten to you , I would no doubt feel the same way in your shoes

theinfectedmaster

@MayCaesar Yes. I don't think anyone should have the right to take someone else's life without their permission.

theinfectedmaster

@MichaelElpers The right to have a vaccine is a true human right, too.

MayCaesar

theinfectedmaster said:

@MayCaesar Yes. I don't think anyone should have the right to take someone else's life without their permission.

I believe you misread my question. Let me repeat it again:

"Would you also agree that making murder of sick people illegal violates human rights because people have the right to protect their health and murdering sick people does just that?"

MichaelElpers

@theinfectedmaster

Ok.  Give me my vaccine to cancer. Its my right.

Also you just provided a statement not actual argument to why it could be considered a right.
I get it, you like unicorns and fairies and want everyone to live in utopia.  You just dont realize your statements make you culpable in not supplying these so called rights.

Let me show you an easy distinction.

Lets take the poorest countries on earth.

Can they provide a right to life, free speech, freedom of religion?
Of course, that tskes no provision because it is a true right.

Now try telling them there is a right to housing and vaccines?

Impossible...not a right.

MichaelElpers

@Dee

The vaccine was not available to all in its immediacy.

"Well I would consider the elderly and vulnerable receiving a vaccine before a healthy citizen but that's just me not being selfish."

...so its not applied equally to everyone.  Ergo not a right.

Your tax free status is not a right.  Please show me where your governing documents provides that as a right?

What happens if your country had a severe economic downturn? Whose providing your right to housing. Lol
I guess you can just go into anyones home and beat them up.  Its my right to housing.
Also what is considered housing and is all housing provided the exact same?

And youve brought up bodily autonomy twice just a smear campaign.

How do the poorest countries on Earth supply these so called rights to people? Housing and vaccines?

Dee

@MichaelElpers

The vaccine was not available to all in its immediacy.

Nothing is available to everyone immediately,  what a strange notion you have on rights.

...so its not applied equally to everyone. Ergo not a right.

Age and vulnerability first for a humanist anyway. I don't know the rigid US definition of a right but its certainly not mine.

Your tax free status is not a right. Please show me where your governing documents provides that as a right?

It's guaranteed by government that makes it a right to me. Please define your usage of " a right" ?

What happens if your country had a severe economic downturn? Whose providing your right to housing. Lol


The government as its a right

I guess you can just go into anyones home and beat them up. Its my right to housing.

That's breaking the law over here , you eem to have very strange laws in the US 

Also what is considered housing and is all housing provided the exact same?

Housing is acceptable accommodation there's guidelines for it

And youve brought up bodily autonomy twice just a smear campaign.

That's not a smear campaign it demonstrates clearly your draconian view of rights where the denial, of rights to women is justified by religiously motivated people like you 

How do the poorest countries on Earth supply these so called rights to people? Housing and vaccines?

I don't know do tell?

MichaelElpers

@Dee

"Nothing is available to everyone immediately, what a strange notion you have on rights."

Freespeech, right to life, freedom of religion all are.

Rights are the fundamental rules that are protected and made equally available to all people under a certain societal or governing body.
A right cannot be legally denied.

"That's not a smear campaign it demonstrates clearly your draconian view of rights where the denial, of rights to women is justified by religiously motivated people like you "

No it doesnt because ive made no position on the right to bodily autonomy. Your attacking a particular government.  Btw very few countries allow unregulated abortion up to 9 months, so your country is most likely violating based on your opinion.

I dont know either how vaccines or housing are provided in poor countries. 
Proving my point under your definition all their rights are being violated and there is no way to provide them...so they cant be right.

Dee

@MichaelElpers

"Nothing is available to everyone immediately, what a strange notion you have on rights."

Freespeech, right to life, freedom of religion all are.

There is no such thing as free speech,  all speech is limited. Right to life? Yet women in America are denied a right to the  life they choose because of religiously motivated moralists.

Again it's limited freedom of  religion.

Rights are the fundamental rules that are protected and made equally available to all people under a certain societal or governing body.
A right cannot be legally denied.

But rights are legally denied depending on  who is governing.

No it doesnt because ive made no position on the right to bodily autonomy. Your attacking a particular government.  Btw very few countries allow unregulated abortion up to 9 months, so your country is most likely violating based on your opinion.

Seriously? . My country most certainly is and so what's your point?

Proving my point under your definition all their rights are being violated and there is no way to provide them...so they cant be right.

Nonsense. They can be a right but one that's denied like in the US yet consistently violate human rights all the time claiming to be defenders of human rights.

MichaelElpers

@Dee

Dont pull a strawman, we all know what free speech means and that there are slight limitations to it.
Its s strawman because I was responding to what rights are available to everyone not what rights have 0 limitations.
What people consoder free speech is equally available to everyone.

A right determined by a government cannot be legally denied.  Certainly there are tyrannical governments that would infringe on what most western civilizations would consider individual rights but again a strawman.  The government cannot deny me a right inside constitutional law that I reside.

If a vaccine is a right, unless equally available to everyone, the government would be denying individual rights. Additionally which vaccines, any potentially available on the planet?  I could argue undiscovered ones should be provided as it is my right to a vaccine.

Youd have to identify the countrybyou are referring because very few have 0 restrictions on abortion.  Additionally i could argue your violating the fetus right to bodily autonomy or right to life hence my abortion is such a sticky topic.

No the government cannot deny rights inside of their constitutional law.  If they did it would go to the courts and if violated legal action would be taken.  
Youd have to show me what constitutional law the U.S. is currently breaking. Im would imagine anything you bring up has already been decided by our judicial system.

ZeusAres42

Dee said:

@just_sayin

You can argue you have the right to buy a vaccine, but you do not have a right to force someone to make it and give it to you.  

It's free over here and no one forced anyone. I have free healthcare and I'm also tax free on my earnings.

It's truly incredible you insist even the poorest should pay for vaccines , are you sure you're a christian?  If you say " yes" you're not exactly keen on helping or caring or the poor are you?

It appears there might be a misunderstanding. @just_saying did not mention or imply in any previous posts that the least fortunate should bear the financial burden for vaccines.

Additionally, the notion that vaccines or healthcare are 'free' in countries like the UK or Ireland is a misperception. The costs are often covered through national health contributions, religious organizations, and other charitable funds. It's not as simple as stating a human right and expecting immediate service without understanding the infrastructure that supports these systems.

If you're receiving benefits, @Dee, I genuinely hope it's for valid reasons. Everyone should contribute positively to society in whatever capacity they can.

just_sayin

theinfectedmaster said:

@MayCaesar Yes. I don't think anyone should have the right to take someone else's life without their permission.

Abortion kills an innocent human life.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Yes, vaccines should be a human right especially for infants.

@theinfectedmaster

Infants are some of the most vulnerable to disease and can really benefit from vaccination. To deny lifesaving treatment is highly unethical and negligent. In other areas of medicine refusing to let someone go to the doctors and they die is manslaughter or even murder. Why not vaccines?

MichaelElpers

@Dreamer

I think like many people on this thread you are misintepreting what a right is.

Merely preventing someone from denying medical treatment doesnt make something right.
A right is something that cannot only be denied bust must be supplied/protected to everyone or their is legal consequence.

How are you going to supply vaccines to everyone in poor countries?  If you cant you are denying a right.

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

@theinfectedmaster

Infants are some of the most vulnerable to disease and can really benefit from vaccination. To deny lifesaving treatment is highly unethical and negligent. In other areas of medicine refusing to let someone go to the doctors and they die is manslaughter or even murder. Why not vaccines?

It is primarily the elderly that have died from COVID.  The numbers are low for young children.  Very low.  See Cambridge study:

How have Covid-19 fatalities compared with other causes of death?

I mentioned in the other vaccine thread that some people can not take vaccines because it causes them to have seizures.  Are you OK with knowingly force them to take something against their will that will cause them to have a seizure that will result in serious health problems for them, even death?

COVID-19 Vaccination and Neurological Manifestations: A Review of Case Reports and Case Series

Shouldn't people be allowed to decide for themselves if a vaccine is right for them?  The idea that you know what is best for everyone is incredibly authoritarian.

MayCaesar

I am not sure how the concept of "right to receive something" can be defined without any contradictions arising. Political "rights" historically have referred to people's ability to take a certain action without legally sanctioned violent repercussions - for instance, right to free speech implies my ability to express my opinion without being shot for it with no legal repercussions for the shooter.

What would "right to get vaccinated" imply? The right to obtain a vaccine and not be violently punished for it. Certainly not the right to demand that someone else administers you vaccine: demands of this kind exactly violate rights of those they are made of. If I go to a hospital and demand a free vaccine, and the hospital staff says that I have to pay for it, then me forcing the hospital to still administer it to me would be an act of extortion, of racket. How is that an exercise of my rights and not a violation of their rights? It is like me robbing a bank at a gunpoint and then saying, "But I really need the money, folks: my daughter's wedding is tomorrow and I have nothing to pay for it" - there has been no legal system in the history of mankind that would treat this argument as freeing me from facing legal consequences of my actions.

I am not sure at what point exactly it started to go wrong, but it seems that the popular interpretation of the concept of "rights" has shifted from something like "ability to perform a free action without legal repercussions", to something like "ability to get something from others upon request". Where in the past you had the right to express your opinion, now you have the right to not hear criticism of your opinion that might offend you. Where you could start your own business, now you can demand a share of someone else's business.

This seems quite twisted to me. Reminds me of the old line: "You will love me... or else."

Dee

@ZeusAres42

It appears there might be a misunderstanding.

It certainly appears that way.

*@just_saying did not mention or imply in any previous posts that the least fortunate should bear the financial burden for vaccines.***

Just sayin if memory serves me is an anti vaxxer and all that implies.

He mentioned quiet clearly  that anyone who suggests that a vaccine should be available to all citizens is somehow " forcing" these individuals when the benifits of vaccines far outweighs costs to government,  maybe you could argue the reverse.

This would be in keeping with just sayins attitude towards the lowest paid and most vulnerable in society who are denied and now  protected by law a wage that covers the basic necessities of life.

Additionally, the notion that vaccines or healthcare are 'free' in countries like the UK or Ireland is a misperception.

If I'm not taking money from my account I'm not paying in any meaningful understanding of cost to me.

The costs are often covered through national health contributions, religious organizations, and other charitable funds. It's not as simple as stating a human right and expecting immediate service without understanding the infrastructure that supports these systems.

I think most would perfectly understand what a cost to me means.

If you're receiving benefits, @Dee, I genuinely hope it's for valid reasons. Everyone should contribute positively to society in whatever capacity they can. ***

I don't recieve benefits and the implication that if I did I would be doing so dishonestly is pretty low but not unexpected.

The smiley face made me laugh, I know someone who when in company makes remarks designed to get the knife in and when called on it say :" just joking", the smiley reminds me of this person

Incidentally I'm self employed and I don't call my occupation work I call it play, I choose my own hours and use my time my way dictated by no one,I'm living this way for 17 years now

I contribute positively to society in a more meaningful.way than the majority of citizens and the evidence of that statement is borne out by the fact that the government decided to.reward me by  granting me tax free status going on my positive contribution to society.

I don't know any scientists , doctors , teachers ,philosophers ,ceo's etc,etc who are granted tax free status over here, yet I am.

Dee

Dont pull a strawman, we all know what free speech means and that there are slight limitations to it.

So all rights are accoding to you limited ,on this I agree.

The limits on free speech are not nor ever were " slight" , to use the term " free speech" is pretty meaningless as its virtually non existent as speech is controlled not just by governments but by people themselves so how is it " free" in any meanigful way?

its s strawman because I was responding to what rights are available to everyone not what rights have 0 limitations.

What people consoder free speech is equally available to everyone.

Is it indeed? Tell me how that fared out for the blacks in the US right up to the.1960's, free speech indeed.

A right determined by a government cannot be legally denied.

Nonsense , I have an entitlement / right determined by the government but denied  to others and I believe others should not be entitled to it  their work/occupation is not in the same class as mine.

It can and it is denied as my example above clearly demonstrates , would you like a further list of denied rights in the US?

  Certainly there are tyrannical governments that would infringe on what most western civilizations would consider individual rights but again a strawman.

So you consuder the US goverment tyrannical?

Its not a strawman at all as usual you hold inconsistent views on rights.

  The government cannot deny me a right inside constitutional law that I reside.

The goverment can do as they will.which is one of the main reasons Americans cite for owing a gun as its a fear most Americans share.

if a vaccine is a right, unless equally available to everyone, the government would be denying individual rights. 

No one was denied the vaccine here i cannot speak for the US or anywhere else for that matter.

Additionally which vaccines, any potentially available on the planet? I could argue undiscovered ones should be provided as it is my right to a vaccine.

A vaccine becomes available if a virus is consudered a considerable threat to the population, youre embravcing absurdities now in an effort to say what exactly?

youd have to identify the countrybyou are referring because very few have 0 restrictions on abortion. Additionally i could argue your violating the fetus right to bodily autonomy or right to life hence my abortion is such a sticky topic.

My position on abortion remains ,a woman is denied a basic right to bodily autonomy in favour of the unborn who's supposed rights somehow trump a born citizens.

No the government cannot deny rights inside of their constitutional law. 

So is your contention now is  going to be that blacks were not denied guaranteed rights in the US?

Be intersted in hearing  how you spin that one out.

 If they did it would go to the courts and if violated legal action would be taken.

How's that working for challenges to draconian abortion laws in the US?

Youd have to show me what constitutional law the U.S. is currently breaking. Im would imagine anything you bring up has already been decided by our judicial system

"Being decided by our judicial syatem" 

Which basically means any constitutional law can be broken as they are all open to challenges depending on the presiding governments interprations of the law which varies .

Back to Abortion ,look at this.......

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws........

Thats Utter nonsense and a clear demonstration of how your constitution is open to constant reinterpretation.

For the first time in history, the U.S. Supreme Court has taken away a right that it had recognized as fundamental to personal liberty: the right to abortion. The Supreme Court, in its ruling in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization, overruled Roe v. Wade and nearly 50 years of constitutional precedent and held that there is no constitutional right to abortion.@MichaelElpers

Dreamer

Argument Topic: People receiving vaccines should be given a cash incentive to be vaccinated.

@MichaelElpers

"How are you going to supply vaccines to everyone in poor countries?  If you cant you are denying a right. "

Many children in 1st world countries have food insecurity and stop growing which I think is failure to thrive from lack of food. We can't even feed people enough in the United States let alone feed people in poor countries or give them all vaccines. What's your point?

 Vaccines are so important to human life and happiness they should be right up there as a basic need like shelter and clothing. Furthermore, vaccines are designed to protect others from the person being given the vaccine. If anything people receiving vaccines should be given a cash incentive to be vaccinated.

MichaelElpers

@Dee

Your point on how black people were historically treated is mute, I would and since law has agreed their rights were being violated... I.e. the right was not being legally applied.
Again rights can be violated by their governments, that doesnt redefine what a right is.  

My point on a vaccine "right"  is you are creating a right that cannot actually be guaranteed by a government.  Your government didnt make the vaccine immediately available to everyone and doesnt have a vaccine available for disease.  By its very nature it will be in constant violation.
Lets say a new virus comes out dumbdeeitis, everyone has a right to a vaccine but there is none.  Thats a violation of your supposed right.  Now vaccine is produced but only 1000 initially available.  Anyone who cannot get one of those vaccines have had their right violated.

Your definition of a right seems to be anything provided by government.  Its a problem when you think authority is providing you human rights instead of just protecting them. 
As May said:
What would "right to get vaccinated" imply? The right to obtain a vaccine and not be violently punished for it. Certainly not the right to demand that someone else administers you vaccine: demands of this kind exactly violate rights of those they are made of. If I go to a hospital and demand a free vaccine, and the hospital staff says that I have to pay for it, then me forcing the hospital to still administer it to me would be an act of extortion, of racket. How is that an exercise of my rights and not a violation of their rights


Again i dont care about your stance on abortion.  The initial "right to abortion" was pulled from a supposed right to privacy.  The overuling didnt create any sort of federal law on abortion just delivered back to the states.

Dee

Your point on how black people were historically treated is mute

It's actually quiet pertinent to be fair. 


, I would and since law has agreed their rights were being violated... I.e. the right was not being legally applied.

Again rights can be violated by their governments, that doesnt redefine what a right is.  

Yet you seem to have a very unusual position on rights.

My point on a vaccine "right" is you are creating a right that cannot actually be guaranteed by a government

Yet it was.

. Your government didnt make the vaccine immediately available to everyone and doesnt have a vaccine available for disease. By its very nature it will be in constant violation.

Nonsense  being " instantaneous " doesn't suddenly  make something a right.

Lets say a new virus comes out dumbdeeitis, everyone has a right to a vaccine but there is none

Right.

. Thats a violation of your supposed right.

No its not because when a vaccine becomes available then I will have it exactly like what happened with the Covid one 

 Now vaccine is produced but only 1000 initially available. Anyone who cannot get one of those vaccines have had their right violated.

Well I don't know anyone that challenged the government on that over here but don't you just know you probably do.

Your definition of a right seems to be anything provided by government

I don't know of anyone else giving me rights do you?

. Its a problem when you think authority is providing you human rights instead of just protecting them. 

Oh so human rights exist regardless either way , do tell? 

As May said:

What would "right to get vaccinated" imply? The right to obtain a vaccine and not be violently punished for it.

A right to get what was offered, its self explanatory really.

 Certainly not the right to demand that someone else administers you vaccine: demands of this kind exactly violate rights of those they are made of

If the government couldn't have supplied it I would have paid for it , I don't hold anyone to the rigid type of authoritarian thinking you seem to imply

. If I go to a hospital and demand a free vaccine, and the hospital staff says that I have to pay for it, then me forcing the hospital to still administer it to me would be an act of extortion

I agree.

, of racket

I agree

. How is that an exercise of my rights and not a violation of their rights

That's acting the bully boy, if the government cannot supply it then its a right denied for practial reasons so what?

Again i dont care about your stance on abortion. The initial "right to abortion" was pulled from a supposed right to privacy. The overuling didnt create any sort of federal law on abortion just delivered back to the states.@MichaelElpers

It clearly demonstrates that rights are in no  way guaranteed under your interpretation of such maybe its time you stopped having this irrational cherry pie and iceccream view of the supposed set in concrete view of your American constitution and rights 

just_sayin

@Dee
I don't think most of your post is for me, so I'll not address those issues.

Just sayin if memory serves me is an anti vaxxer and all that implies.

I've been shot 4 times and about to get the 5th of the COVID vaccine.  I'm not anti-vax, I'm pro-freedom.  Allow others a little bodily autonomy and try not to control what others do with their body.  I'm always amazed at how pro-baby killing supporters are so hypocritical when it comes to their stances on abortion and vaccines.  They will mandate a vaccine on everyone even if there is a very small chance that anyone they come in contact with will die, but they cry 'bodily autonomy' when someone chooses to kill an innocent child who isn't their body and has her own distinct body.  Just sickening how you are willing to harm or kill other people's body and not give them a choice in the matter.

Dee

@just_sayin

I've been shot 4 times and about to get the 5th of the COVID vaccine.  I'm not anti-vax, I'm pro-freedom. 

OK  sorry about that I wasn't sure , thanks for letting me know.

 Allow others a little bodily autonomy and try not to control what others do with their body

I've no problem Alliowing others hiding autonomy.

.  I'm always amazed at how pro-baby killing supporters are so hypocritical when it comes to their stances on abortion and vaccines.

Why who's pro baby killing?  I'm not hypocritical at all , during Covid my stance was if you don't vax well then you take the consequences of your actions.

They will mandate a vaccine on everyone even if there is a very small chance that anyone they come in contact with will die,

Whio are they? 

 but they cry 'bodily autonomy' when someone chooses to kill an innocent child who isn't their body and has her own distinct body

Well I suggest you go get them 

.  Just sickening how you are willing to harm or kill other people's body and not give them a choice in the matter.

How am I willing to harm a other people's bodies?

 

MichaelElpers

@Dreamer

"We can't even feed people enough in the United States let alone feed people in poor countries or give them all vaccines. What's your point?"

Correct which is why there is no right to food because it is not intrinsically available to everyone.  If there is a right to food that means i could steal yours if i needed it. Same for vaccines.

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

@MichaelElpers

"How are you going to supply vaccines to everyone in poor countries?  If you cant you are denying a right. "

Many children in 1st world countries have food insecurity and stop growing which I think is failure to thrive from lack of food. We can't even feed people enough in the United States let alone feed people in poor countries or give them all vaccines. What's your point?

 Vaccines are so important to human life and happiness they should be right up there as a basic need like shelter and clothing. Furthermore, vaccines are designed to protect others from the person being given the vaccine. If anything people receiving vaccines should be given a cash incentive to be vaccinated.

One of the biggest predictors of one's happiness is presence of a love partner. Given how important it is to human life and happiness, do you believe that the government should be involved in finding husbands/wives for single people? Should I be able to go to a governmental office, say that I want to find a wife, and have her delivered to me within a few days?

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Vaccinating everyone has great economic benefits and improves the economy meaning there is more to go around.

@MichaelElpers

Ironically, we would have more food to give to people if everyone was vaccinated. Vaccines are cost effective, way more than going to the hospital. That's why anti-vaxxers are Big Pharm shills.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/big-pharma/

MichaelElpers

@Dreamer
 
Showing benefits of something doesnt mean it should be a right.  It can be something provided by government and not be a right.

Your last statement is odd.  Im not sure what Big Pharma would be doing making vaccines and marketing them like crazy if they werent a huge money maker.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Vaccines are low profit only about $20 a dose. Compared to $20,000 per hospitalization.

@MichaelElpers

In contrast cancer drugs are the most profitable. I don't see vaccines as being marketed like crazy as you said.

https://bigthink.com/health/cancer-drugs-most-profitable/

MichaelElpers

@Dreamer

You dont see all the commercials with professional athletes hyping them?  
Big pharma isnt getting all the money from a 20000 hospitalization.

Aak yourself why would they market to me getting the vaccine if they make mpre from me not taking it?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/01/31/the-covid-pandemic-drives-pfizers-2022-revenue-to-a-record-100-billion.html&ved=2ahUKEwic6Yjbt4eCAxVtGjQIHVEbDNcQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3yDlbm-YzlOMXVzSVm6k4P

MayCaesar

Dreamer said:

@MichaelElpers

In contrast cancer drugs are the most profitable. I don't see vaccines as being marketed like crazy as you said.

https://bigthink.com/health/cancer-drugs-most-profitable/

I cannot think of a single other product throughout my life that would have random people on the streets wear t-shirts saying, "I got X", all over the country. Yet Pfizer and Moderna were advertised probably by millions of people. If there is another product that has been marketed as crazy as that, please mention it.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Some was from the anti-viral pill that if we had herd immunity we could have ended the pandemic.

@MichaelElpers

I don't watch mainstream TV I wouldn't know if professionals were. This could be a public service announcement. After-all the gains of vaccines are awesome, see other thread.

"Of all the preventative treatments ever developed through science- and evidence-based medicine, vaccines have arguably saved more lives, prevented more illness and disability, and in general alleviated more suffering than any single class of treatments or preventative measures throughout history." David Gorski

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/antivaccine-activists-attack-vaccine-mandates/

https://bigthink.com/health/future-vaccine-technology/

MichaelElpers

@Dreamer

They can be true.  What can also be true is that not all vaccines are created equal. Covid was not even close to total prevention of disease or transmission.

Also this has nothing to do with the thread.  Should it be a right?  Whether or not it should be a right has nothing to do with how effective or inneffective a vaccine is.

Dreamer

Argument Topic: Well ineffective vaccines shouldn't be a right like Hepatis C that failed testing.

@MichaelElpers

Did you know about the association between anti-vaxxers and Proud Boys? That many anti-vaxxers are highly anti-Semitic.

https://twitter.com/stopvaccinating/status/1659005216350674945

https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2022/01/28/why-is-there-now-such-an-affinity-between-antivaxxers-and-fascism/