On holding grudges and personal freedom

just_sayin

Forgiveness has a lot of personal benefits.  First, it takes a lot of emotional energy to hate someone.  The amount of time you waist on thinking about that person and whatever event happened, letting them live rent free in your mind, it can be all consuming.  It is my observation that most people are just not worthy of my hate.  I have limited emotional energy and I just can't afford to waste it.  

Forgiveness frees you from resentment and bitterness.  I've seen this over and over.  Someone offends someone else, and then the one offended seethes with secret bitterness at whatever sleight occurred.  The other person goes on with their life and doesn't even remember the incident, while the one who holds the grudge is miserable.   

MayCaesar

@just_sayin

Your last sentence is absolutely on point: often the one holding the grudge assumes that the target of the grudge has the same feelings towards them, while the exact opposite is true - they have moved on, or even have been beating themselves up over what they did to them.

I made this mistake in high school. There was a girl who I thought had a nasty character: she was constantly messing with me and humiliating me in front of others. As a pretty soft guy, I did not particularly resist, and the idea of applying violence of any kind to a girl was extremely revolting to me. Naturally, I thought very poorly of her and sincerely hoped that she would suffer for what she did to me.
A year later, when we were both at university, both unhappy with our programs and wanting to switch to something else, she reached out to me for support. I was quite surprised when her reaction to my cold response was warm and friendly. Later I met her in person and she treated me very well. I eventually learned that she actually liked me in high school and tried to convey it somehow, but as her girl friends were highly judgmental, she only had the strength to pick on me hoping to draw my attention.
Not an excuse for her behavior, but definitely puts it in a different light. Moreover, if I had been a little more open-minded, I could definitely have seen a lot of cues such as her taking my hand and laughing it off, but clearly not wanting to let go of the hand.

We often let our feelings and emotions override logic, and when feelings and emotions are negative, they lead us to more negative conclusions than warranted by reality. There is almost always a more realistic and a more benevolent explanation of something than what our hurt egos encourage us to develop.

Dee

That's an admirable way to live and can only enrich your life.

I had a business partner.many years ago who left me with nothing as he looked after accounting in what was a young but very profitable business.

I fumed and raged about the injustice of it all and the emotions seemed to have a life of their own I was bent on revenge until I  calmed down and realised if revenge was going to define me it would actually do more damage than good to me not him.

I ended up meeting him to clear the air and he broke down and admitted he got into deep financial trouble through his wife's overspending and failure to pay the mortgage,  the anger in me disappeared almost instantly as he was a sad broken man,we had a handshake and went our separate ways with no ill feeling.

It actually thought me a valuable lesson as in why did I have a business partner in the first place when I was capable by myself?

From this came growth and now I work solely for myself.

A woman years ago asked me " Do you know yourself or your family ,like really know" before I could reply she said " Wait till the reading of your parents will and let me know then" 

My parents duly passed and the reading of the will took place I was the executor to say all Hell broke loose would be an understatement and the stress and damage wreaked was appalling, this was all the more astonishing considering we all recieved equal shares from a large estate.

I thankfully did not get involved in the daily infighting over trivial trifles as it would have dishonoured cherished memories of my parents.

After several months of my sister and a brother constantly asking when they were getting their cut and why was I not hurrying the solicitor into releasing funds I finally snapped and told my sister " to go f-ck off" my brother recieved the same message and it was a pretty amazing feeling as the stress of months of  petty arguing instantly washed away.

I remember reading a short story by Chekov ( I think) it was about a man who when he died god asked him would he have picked if given a choice any of his siblings as family or friends the man replied "no: got to feel the same way myself after my experience.

I get what you're saying and agree but think sometimes a differnt.approach can bring about agreeable results for one's mental health.

Thanks for posting up a very interesting topic.

Barnardot

@just_sayin ;The other person goes on with their life and doesn't even remember the incident, while the one who holds the grudge is miserable.   

Actually you make an awful lot of sents there and I must congratulate you for presenting a very good argument for once. 

Because for example. Say some one maliciously says that Hamas chopped off kids heads then that person is going to be miserable unless he asks for forgiveness from those he offended.

And another example would be if say a person liers about people being cured by prayer and cites bogus and false evidence that person is going to be miserable unless he asks for forgiveness from those he offended.

And say were talking about the same person who also maliciciously and falsely states that some one elses work mates are illegal immigrants and ex prisoners that person is going to be miserable unless he asks for forgiveness from those he offended.

So I reckon that person would be so miserable he would want to jump off the nearest overpass. 

Unless he asks forgiveness from those he offended and actually writes a written apology over social media I might add.

MayCaesar

@Dee

I see what you are getting at here. We can probably agree on a more general idea: that it is always better to move on than be stuck in the loop of negative emotions. Sometimes it means parting with someone on good terms or reaching out later, other times it may mean telling them to their face how much they suck... What is important is that an action is taken and you mentally and emotionally have moved on, whatever said action is.

I had a friend with whom I did a 2 month long trip overseas; we were very close. But he got under the influence of some... questionable political groups. In Russia there is a strange part of the political spectrum that is widely represented, that is a cross of communism and fascism - one could call it "National Communism". He became involved with them and started routinely making some disgusting statements with respect to immigrants, foreigners, human right advocates... I made it clear to him on more than one occasion that he is free to believe whatever he wants, but I am not interested in discussing this stuff and it utterly disgusts me - but he kept pressing on it. Eventually I just told him, "Look, if you bring this subject up again, that will be our last conversation". He got upset and started calling me all kinds of names: "Brainwashed sheeple"... I did not even respond; just turned around and walked away. He kept trying to reach out afterwards, and I ignored most of his attempts, responding curtly to only a couple of them: "I do not want to talk to you any more; good day".

I probably did not handle that situation with as much class as I should have, but once I made the decision that he was not going to be a part of my life any more, I instantly moved on. I never harbored any resentment for him, and it was just a purely logical thought sitting in my mind: "He is not the kind of person I want to associate with". I have no clue where he is now (last time I said anything to him was well over 10 years ago), and I do not really care.

There have only been 3 people who I willingly removed from my life this way, and in each case I was extremely happy with my decision: only after not interacting with a particularly frustrating person for a while do you start truly appreciating just how much toxicity they used to bring in your life.

Dee

@MayCaesar

I'm on the same page. Some  people never let go and will repeat the same old stories about how they were wronged by others and the injustice of it all the only person being damaged is them and its all self inflicted.

It's no surprise really as groups and nations also will hold grudges and repeatedly bring them up in some cases for centuries

That's pretty tragic way your friend ended up,  I often think people that join up to these political groups / religions etc  etc are fulfilling some deep want in themselves, maybe they feel valued protected and wanted by the group, what do you think?

MayCaesar

@Dee

I think that people living in a society have to take countless factors into account, and sometimes they employ simple heuristics that seem to generally give acceptable results, but significantly limit their potential in the long run. Joining an organized political movement allows one to both feel accepted on a deep level by a large number of people, and outsource a lot of thinking and decision-making to the group - but those benefits come at the cost of losing one's individuality as one becomes entangled in the group and adopts some of its characteristics. And in particular if the group in question is based not around building something constructive, but around opposing someone, then that opposition will naturally push one towards conflict with those who are not on board with the group's agenda.

There are political and religious groups that do not operate on the premise of opposing someone/something. I certainly have been to Christian churches in the US which were all about volunteering, kindness, mutual support and the like, and not at all about any adversarial action against anyone - those are incredible places with incredible people, and even though I strongly disagree with their epistemology, it is the "Let's agree to disagree and move on to the fun stuff" kind of disagreement, not "I cannot stand to be near you when you believe in something like that" kind of disagreement.
But those groups do not give as strong benefits as the more oppositional ones. Furthermore, since their focus is self-improvement and self-fulfillment, they naturally urge their members to dig deep within themselves and work on fixing their own flaws - and that is a hard and unpleasant work. Looking around your neighborhood and seeing that it is rundown, it is much harder to think, "What did I do wrong to end up in this place, and how can I fix it in the future?", than, "Who can I blame for this in order to not feel responsible for this state of affairs?"

My friend decided that the ills of his life and, by extension, of Russia could be blamed on immigrants and foreign politicians, and that if only those were taken under control, everything would be peachy. And thinking back, I realize that this was a general pattern in his thinking. He also complained on numerous occasions how hard it was for men to date women in the modern world, because of how unrealistic women's standards were and so on - instead of thinking about how he could improve himself and his approach to become more appealing to the opposite sex, he looked for an excuse to not do anything. This, unfortunately, is a very common mindset, and once one has adopted it, it is very hard to get rid of it.

Dee

@MayCaesar

Joining an organized political movement allows one to both feel accepted on a deep level by a large number of people, and outsource a lot of thinking and decision-making to the group - but those benefits come at the cost of losing one's individuality as one becomes entangled in the group and adopts some of its characteristics


Yes , I think the acceptance part can be  very appealing especially for those who are seeking some kind of acceptance,  but yes you're right  as its rare individuality is greatly valued in groups with their own hierarchies,  rules , and codes of conduct.


There are political and religious groups that do not operate on the premise of opposing someone/something. I certainly have been to Christian churches in the US which were all about volunteering, kindness, mutual support and the like, and not at all about any adversarial action against anyone - those are incredible places with incredible people, and even though I strongly disagree with their epistemology, it is the "Let's agree to disagree and move on to the fun stuff" kind of disagreement, not "I cannot stand to be near you when you believe in something like that" kind of disagreement.

Groups like that are wonderful as the goals are truly positive and a positive common goal  is the aim of all , no time for raging egos and personality clashes , very admirable indeed.

Looking around your neighborhood and seeing that it is rundown, it is much harder to think, "What did I do wrong to end up in this place, and how can I fix it in the future?", than, "Who can I blame for this in order to not feel responsible for this state of affairs?"


Yes, the blame game  can become an addiction for some for every woe that befalls them , it's never the one complaining that's to blame but " those cottupt " politicians/ clergy / bosses etc ,etc , people become addicted to such behavior because its the easy way out and an exxcuse for inaction.

My friend decided that the ills of his life and, by extension, of Russia could be blamed on immigrants and foreign politicians, and that if only those were taken under control, everything would be peachy. And thinking back, I realize that this was a general pattern in his thinking. He also complained on numerous occasions how hard it was for men to date women in the modern world, because of how unrealistic women's standards were and so on - instead of thinking about how he could improve himself and his approach to become more appealing to the opposite sex, he looked for an excuse to not do anything. This, unfortunately, is a very common mindset, and once one has adopted it, it is very hard to get rid of it.
.
Your friend it seems was playing the age old game of blaming immigrants and foreign politicians ,it as old as the hills  .In  a famous brilliant book The ragged trousered philanthropist by Robert Tressel working class life in England is portrayed through the daily struggle of tradesmen mainly house painters  whose  lives were one of toil and suffering , the foreman a truly obnoxious individual blames " those bloody foreigners"  for low wages never looking to the real reason,  he blames Italian organ grinders as being a prime example of those foreigners taking bread from an  Englishmans family

Yes , men who are dreadful at communicating with women are their own worst enemies as they lump,every in one pot where they share only certain negative traits , if you  treat women like aliens it's no wonder they flee , I suspect men like this suffered a negative experience or two with women and f8nd communication with then terrifying.

I've always found women ( mostly) brilliant conversationalist,  interesting and not in the least competitive ( mostly) , I'd sooner share a long journey with a woman's company to a mans.

MayCaesar

@Dee

Agreed. And that, I think, is where many people go wrong: they seek acceptance as in "you are a member of your group and that is why we support you", rather than "I accept you for what you are as a person". I personally would rather be accepted by 10 outstanding individuals for exhibiting certain traits, than by a crowd of 2 billion religious followers for agreeing with the postulates of their book.
I think that true acceptance, rather than this superficial "you are one of us", comes from being exposed to serious challenges routinely, overcoming them and demonstrating that you stand on a solid ground - regardless of what that ground is. And if it means contradicting virtually every organized group out there, then so be it.
I heard this saying once, paraphrasing: "It is better to be the fool on the island of geniuses, than the genius on the island of fools". It is not hard to look acceptable in the eyes of a few billion people by conforming with their expectations, but it is hardly worth it. On the other hand, developing an independent world view may put you in the situation where the vast majority of people do not accept you - but that minority that does accept you is the people acceptance of which is the only one worth earning.

Regarding blaming, it also serves to distance you from other people, which is extremely detrimental to your personal development and social advancement. People always act to the best of their ability at the moment, pretty much by definition, and changing that is impossible - and putting responsibility on someone else, someone you cannot control, makes you powerless, and prompts you to resent others. Perhaps this is why people often seek to control and dominate others: since the others are responsible for everything, you have to be able to direct their actions in order to have control over your own life. This creates an adversarial environment in which positive and productive connection with other people becomes challenging.
I had another friend who, admittedly, had good reasons to believe what she did as she was a member of a highly discriminated minority - yet she made sure that her life would forever be a living hell by focusing on said discrimination and seeing it as the factor stopping her from succeeding in life. She had a good head on her shoulders and could get very far if her mindset was different... Ah well.
I think that even when grievance can be reasonably justified, giving in to it is a mistake.

Curious, I did not know that this topic was big in England as well! I suppose immigrants are the easiest to blame in general, as it is easy to view them as a destabilizing factor in an otherwise nearly perfect society. Luckily, I have not seen that towards me in the US at all from common people, and it is only politicians that seem to play this tune, catering to the people who must live in some remote areas where I have never been. Large cities such as Washington DC or New York City have so many immigrants from all over the world, that any kind of anti-immigrant rhetoric here would be like a hyena in Africa seeing a bunch of antelopes and telling them, "Go away, this is not your land!"

I totally agree with you regarding women. There are a lot of stereotypes people hold of how a particular gender views the opposite gender, and even when they are aware that this might not be true, they believe that they must act as if it was true because everyone else believes it to be true... It is a huge logical mess.
In my experience, women, just like men, will treat you well if you approach them with good intent and treat them as worthwhile human beings. Some people in the US will say that you cannot compliment a woman because she will immediately accuse you of sexual harassment - yet that is demonstrably not true, and I have given compliments to thousands of women (I like just complimenting strangers randomly: makes both my and their day) and not a single time did any of them react negatively. Sure, some weird women may be under the influence of certain extreme ideologies - but, first, they appear to be very rare and concentrated in a few specific environments, and second, if you treat them well, they will be very unlikely to unleash their ideological rage on you.

Just yesterday I was going to the mailroom to pick up some papers after teaching a few classes. On the way down I noticed a girl studying at a table in the hall: I saw her several times before when taking a walk between classes, and she clearly had been studying there for hours. In the mailroom I saw a large box of snacks left from the Friday party. I took a plate, put a few sweets on it, then brought it to her, had a little small talk, complimented her dedication to her studies and left. Little kind gesture that made both me and her feel good. No overthinking, no weird mating rituals.
People who think that such things are outside of the realm of possibility are nuts... I do not know what articles they read and who they hang out with, but they clearly have a very twisted image of the opposite sex. And, chances are, if they did try to do this, all the images that sit in their heads would make them act extremely awkwardly, the girl would feel very uncomfortable and not show them as much kindness, and they would see it as evidence of their views being correct. It is a vicious cycle.

Barnardot

@MayCaesar ;Perhaps this is why people often seek to control and dominate others:

I know what you mean there.

For example there was this other forum I was on and this real selfish ignorant dufis kept on saying things like

I am still waiting patiently for you to explain the apparent contradiction between your theory and the observation I made. I will not relent.

And you think well thats a bit dum and pushy but so what. But wait. What he also said every day is

Like I said, I am not going to relent, buddy. You have a choice:

And

I will keep repeating it until you address it.

And

Explain this one. I am waiting with bated breath.

And

I will keep drilling you 

And

No, you have yet to explain 

And

I am still patiently waiting for you to explain this

And

That is lame and hardly warrants any respect.

And

and the reasons of you defending it are beyond me.

And

the best way for you to earn massive respect

And

you could just admit a very obvious fact

And

Sorry, but this is not a counter-argument; please try again.

And

 but you have failed to address the fact 

And

I am still patiently waiting for you to explain this

And

 I enjoy interacting with people like you: it is like playing with a cute puppy.

And

perhaps, your mother's care was worth nothing to you

And

You still have yet to point out

And

you seem to be one of those people to whom admitting that their statement was inaccurate is scarier than death, so probably will not happen...

And

So I ask again: how does your lesson align with this piece of evidence

And

Would be curious to hear how your lesson aligns with this piece of evidence.

And

I think the reading comprehension here is a bit lacking

And

I fail to see why it should matter what is inside of it.

And

 I am a weird guy, and multiple incompatible perspectives co-inhabit my mind

So you answer him each time and then he asks the same question again. I counted 7 times he asked the same thing and I replied 5 times. And you give all the evidence and he just keeps getting worse and then started making threats.

So I thought wow this guy really needs some therapy and you just wouldn't want to let an ignorant mean control freak like that going out side and getting any where near other people. 

Any way where I work we knock off thousands of chickens and we all ways have these chicken jokes like. Why did the ignorant chicken not cross the road? A Because it didnt want to see the other side

Dee

@MayCaesar

"It is better to be the fool on the island of geniuses, than the genius on the island of fools", that's a wonderful saying.

More than ever the world needs people who are not afraid to express themselves without the fear of  censorship from others.

I find sheeple mentality to br truly horrifying ,it's remarkable to me that nowadays a lot of people are too  terrified to express themselves honestly.as one can be   " outed" or publicly shamed for expressing honestly held views.

I've seen careers ended , people shamed and destroyed by PC bullies who find fault in almost any public utterance , worse still this minority have changed Universities,  workplaces and social settings with their ever increasing list of things they find offensive.

There seems to be an increase in these tiresome busybodies who enjoy shaming those who don't agree with their over the top PC nonsense.



Some people in the US will say that you cannot compliment a woman because she will immediately accuse you of sexual harassment - yet that is demonstrably not true, and I have given compliments to thousands of women (I like just complimenting strangers randomly: makes both my and their day) and not a single time did any of them react negatively. Sure, some weird women may be under the influence of certain extreme ideologies - but, first, they appear to be very rare and concentrated in a few specific environments, and second, if you treat them well, they will be very unlikely to unleash their ideological rage on you.

I agree, and I've never once been admonished  for giving a woman a compliment in fact al my l working  life I've given them.

I think I mentioned before I worked full time as a mentalist / magician and  used to make a lot of my income doing Tarot reading/ Palm readings using a fascinating technique called cold reading,  women were always rhe clients and a steady line in compliments worked wonders it also left them leaving feeling happy and appreciated.

I'm now a full  time Artist and deal  face to face with the public again a compliment placed tactfully into a conversation works wonders.

Just yesterday I was going to the mailroom to pick up some papers after teaching a few classes. On the way down I noticed a girl studying at a table in the hall: I saw her several times before when taking a walk between classes, and she clearly had been studying there for hours. In the mailroom I saw a large box of snacks left from the Friday party. I took a plate, put a few sweets on it, then brought it to her, had a little small talk, complimented her dedication to her studies and left. Little kind gesture that made both me and her feel good. No overthinking, no weird mating rituals.

Thats a truly thoughtful and wonderful thing to do and words of praise for her efforts will stay with her for life as kindness like that especially from someone in a postion like yours demonstrates the positive effects of hard work.

I have a weekend open air gallery at weekends over here in Dublin , Art students and various  people ofen show me their Art work and i will always compliment them on the work and encourage them  because they were brave enough to open themselves up to my opinion , I've seen people involved in the Arts  destroyed by the cruel  sledgehammer  like opinions of others 

People who think that such things are outside of the realm of possibility are nuts... I do not know what articles they read and who they hang out with, but they clearly have a very twisted image of the opposite sex. And, chances are, if they did try to do this, all the images that sit in their heads would make them act extremely awkwardly, the girl would feel very uncomfortable and not show them as much kindness, and they would see it as evidence of their views being correct. It is a vicious cycle.

Yes you're right , i think a lot of men are terrified of  approaching women and your spot on they  come across as extremly akward which leaves them at a disadvantage straight off.

I wonder do men like that ever realise that a different  approach is needed as a simple attitude change could bring dramatic changes.

GiantMan

Barnardot

@Dee ;I wonder do men like that ever realise that a different  approach is needed as a simple attitude change could bring dramatic changes.

Your got to try this one because where I come from we used to go up to a chick and say. Hay are you from Tennesee and then you pause right. And then you say. Because your the only ten I see. 

Or you say Hay excuse me can you give me directions? Then she says. Directions to where? Then you say. Directions to your heart.

But the thing is that here at all the colleges all you need to do is come out with a crummy line like that and they give you there number. Every body swaps numbers here.