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Toxic Masculinity is not only insulting to all Men, it's not a real thing and makes no sense

Debate Information

I'm sure everyone's heard the term at least once, "Toxic Masculinity".
 
The term was birthed from the Mythopoetic movement, a body of authors and academics who claimed that the social pressures placed upon men to be violent, competitive, independent, and unfeeling are a "toxic" form of masculinity, in contrast to a "real" or "deep" masculinity.  The idea was to stereotype Men and then label what society expects of them as Toxic and therefor "Toxic Masculinity"

The problem with this idea that violence, competitive behavior and essentially stoicism are toxic expectations of Men is that these expectations are not only natural within the animal Kingdom but they are critical functions that are still needed in today's society. 

  1. The "Use of Force" is the most common example of violence. The vast majority of this type of violence is carried out by Men. Every law we have on the books today is backed by the threat of the use of force (Violence) and our society wouldn't function without the arm to enforce those laws.
  2. Competition is also purely natural, every one of the 100,000,000 species on the planet evolved to compete with not only one another, but members of their own species. Men and Women both compete in different ways and to suggest that competition or the expectation to compete is toxic is ridiculous.
  3. Independence is simply not toxic and the expectation to be independent cannot be seen as a form of toxicity no matter how you spin it. I'm not even sure how this became a conclusion.

Setting aside the fact that the origins are without merit and the terminology makes no sense, the way "Toxic Masculinity" is used today is so bastardized from its original use that it can literally mean anything that you don't like about a Man.

  • He's unappealing, that's toxic.
  • He said something you don't like? Toxic.
  • You want to date him but he doesn't like you...obviously toxic.
  • He has standards and you don't meet them? Toxic AF
  • He won't tolerate verbal abuse? He's toxic, stay away from him.
  • He wants to take care of his wife so she doesn't have to work? Toxic, chauvinist, mysogynistic, sexist pig
The terminology needs to be done away with, it doesn't produce anything positive and shaming someone out of their behavior hasn't halted bad behavior since the free love movement. Instead it's harming young Men and teaching them to avoid the opposite sex for fear of being socially destroyed.
"If there's no such thing as a question then what kind of questions do people ask"?

"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".

"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm?  Well I don't much appreciate your stup!d".





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  • MayCaesarMayCaesar 6053 Pts   -  
    I do not think that this concept is that terrible, as long as it is properly interpreted. The idea of the human struggling against those primal instincts that drive him towards behavioral patterns that do not serve his long-term self-interest is one of the oldest in philosophy: choosing between what is right and what is easy (and "easy" not necessarily in terms of the amount of physical/mental effort it takes, but, rather, in terms of the amount of inner struggle it involves) is an ancient trope. Both men and women have certain instincts more pronounced in them than in the members of the opposite sex, and failure to take those instincts under control and direct them properly can very well lead to both self-destructive behaviors and behaviors destructive to others, and they can also be psychologically contagious and, in that sense, toxic.

    There is certainly some pressure in certain industries, societies and social circles for men to hide their feelings, to aggressively compete against other men, to act tough, to not show any weakness. All these have their time and place in a healthy individual, but they are not always acted out in that time and place, and the peer pressure may exacerbate this problem. There are bosses yelling at their employees over minor issues, drunks at a bar getting violent, people in bed pushing decisively past their partners' boundaries, parents beating their kids over slight displays of disobedience - and while it is true that these behaviors can be exhibited by members of either sex, there are certain biological differences in combination with social norms that create stronger incentives for men to act this way than for women.

    Same goes for women. It appears true, for example, that women are much more inclined to gossip, to stab other women in the back (men prefer a more open confrontation), to engage in pretentious displays of weakness in order to gain favors, to use their sex appeal to manipulate the opposite sex... In this terminology, there is "toxic femininity" as well.

    I suppose where this goes wrong is when people stop talking about statistical patterns and start generalizing them to the entire population. "Toxic masculinity" or "toxic femininity" now are almost universally applicable, and the rare examples of people who do not display these are outliers, perhaps even betrayers of their sex. Now the expectation of every man is that he will want to have sex with his date at any cost and then brag to his friends about it, and the expectation of every woman is that she will want to marry a millionaire and do nothing all day. Furthermore, all exhibitions of masculinity or femininity start being associated with toxicity, which leads one to the Orwellian conclusion that the only proper way for a human to behave is to act as if he or she was a sexless, amorphic robot.

    I will add that all this seems to be rooted in a deep confusion about what freedom means. In the past women calling themselves feminists claimed that women should be free to engage in all the same activities as men, that they should not be denied any opportunities based on their sex alone, that they should not be expected by default to be housewives. But over time it evolved into women effectively having to do everything that sets them apart from traditional women as much as possible, same applying to men - so now if someone refuses to agree with them on every single lifestyle choice, then they are going to be harshly criticized. Notice the asymmetry: people should not be judged for doing what they want to do regardless of their sex - yet if they do not do what modern feminists want them to do, then they are judged very harshly. "Freedom from judgement for me, but not for thee". 
    As I see it, freedom from judgement either applies to everyone, or to no one. If someone is to criticize me for exhibiting certain traditionally masculine behaviors, then I should be free to criticize them for not exhibiting certain traditionally feminine behaviors - and, by the same token, if they do want me to not criticize them, then they should not criticize me either. Either you do you and I do me, or neither of us does ourselves. It is unreasonable to expect me to accept everything you do, while you refuse to accept everything I do.

    I personally have no problem with men or women following traditional values, nor do I with them not doing so. Everyone is free to follow any values they like, as long as they do not force them down other people's throats. Yet, unfortunately, this last part seems to be applied very selectively.
    Vaulk
  • BarnardotBarnardot 533 Pts   -  
    @MayCaesar ; Everyone is free to follow any values they like, as long as they do not force them down other people's throats. Yet, unfortunately, this last part seems to be applied very selectively.

    That is very sound principle there. Its like for example some one could be a cheap skate and believe that buying cheap trash has some sort of value or even more ridiculous getting given something to use and believing that it isnt going to end up costing them big time. Thats there business but it is regret full that these low lifers tend to keep the con sharks in business making it worse for the rest of the community and the economy.

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