Why Would God Create The Universe?

Barnardot

@JulesKorngold This is a good question really and you can only speculate as to why because even if God was true then you would have to think that he must have ultra Uber plans and our planet is just a little porn in a ginormous game of chests so to speak. 

Dreamer

Argument Topic: I'm not sure what you mean by ginormous game of chests.

@Barnardot

More and more I think the number of Christians are in the thousands. Most are only pretending to be Christian because it is politically expedient. Or some sort of economic incentive. All that's left of Christianity is grifters and virtue signaling fake Christians who want the social currency of pronouncing they are Christian.

Bogan

Well, you see, God was sitting around one day, but he was not thinking about anything, because there was nothing to think about.   He wasn't doing anything, because there was nothing to do.   He didn't say anything because there was nothing to say.   Then he got an idea.   He was going to create everything.   So, for the next six days he flew around the universe at warp speed grabbing big lumps of nothing and bashing them together to make hundreds of billions of galaxies containing thousands s of billions of stars, black holes, quasi stellars, and planets.

And if you believe that, you will believe anything.   

Barnardot

@Dreamer ;Most are only pretending to be Christian because it is politically expedient.

And thats what its all about nower days really. Christianity had a use in the old days but when you analize it in the end it is just a conduit for chanelling spiritual beliefs. So its all just cymbolic and most people in this day and age know very well that its impossible to believe that some mystical thing created the universe.

Barnardot

@Bogan ;he was not thinking about anything, because there was nothing to think about. 

It could of bean worse. What if God only thought about half of anything. There would be no colors and every thing would be white. And he would have flew a round the universe in a Holdin Pickup doing donuts at every galaxy. 

JulesKorngold

Maybe God created the Universe as a joke. 

Putin

Because I wanted to. It is cool and funny.

Factfinder

@JulesKorngold

As an apostate I can tell you with assurance the average christian would tell you 'as an expression of love'. That of course begs the question why after eons and eons of eternal time couldn't god create a perfect society without hell and evil? Guess the old bible verse 'nothing is impossible with god' is a lie or god ain't all that. 
 

MayCaesar

If any of the monotheistic religions is right, it would seem that the god was extremely insecure and had a lot of self-defeating thoughts. So he created a Universe and populated it with intelligent species whose purpose was to constantly talk about how great god is. Hopefully external validation works for him!

Putin

@MayCaesar
And then along come you people....

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

Amazing the number of coincidences that the characteristics of god has with its human creators, isn't it? 

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

@JulesKorngold

As an apostate I can tell you with assurance the average christian would tell you 'as an expression of love'. That of course begs the question why after eons and eons of eternal time couldn't god create a perfect society without hell and evil? Guess the old bible verse 'nothing is impossible with god' is a lie or god ain't all that. 
 

I don't know if you are interested in an answer to the question, but if you are, then know that the answer to the question what was God doing before creation is that there was no time before creation.  Time is part of space and matter.  Without space there is no time.  There could be an order of things that are greater or lesser, but pre-universe or post-universe, there is no time.  This is the view of Genesis which starts "in the beginning...".  For the record the Nobel prize winner, Roger Penrose argues this same point from a mathematical position.

God is past, present, and future all at the same time.  Does God experience time as the A theory of time or tense theory of time, or a B theory of time where there is an ordered events, but not really a past present, or future?  Who knows.  By the way, these two views are very much debated among physicists. 

So, the quick answer was God wasn't sitting around.  God's intention to create the universe begins with the creation of the universe because there is no time before the creation of the universe.  Further, every time the Bible touches on the issue of why did God create the universe, or man, the response is 'for His glory."  .  

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

@JulesKorngold

As an apostate I can tell you with assurance the average christian would tell you 'as an expression of love'. That of course begs the question why after eons and eons of eternal time couldn't god create a perfect society without hell and evil? Guess the old bible verse 'nothing is impossible with god' is a lie or god ain't all that. 
 

I don't know if you are interested in an answer to the question, but if you are, then know that the answer to the question what was God doing before creation is that there was no time before creation.  Time is part of space and matter.  Without space there is no time.  There could be an order of things that are greater or lesser, but pre-universe or post-universe, there is no time.  This is the view of Genesis which starts "in the beginning...".  For the record the Nobel prize winner, Roger Penrose argues this same point from a mathematical position.

God is past, present, and future all at the same time.  Does God experience time as the A theory of time or tense theory of time, or a B theory of time where there is an ordered events, but not really a past present, or future?  Who knows.  By the way, these two views are very much debated among physicists. 

So, the quick answer was God wasn't sitting around.  God's intention to create the universe begins with the creation of the universe because there is no time before the creation of the universe.  Further, every time the Bible touches on the issue of why did God create the universe, or man, the response is 'for His glory."  .  

Mathematics can never prove or disprove god. Yeah, which is why biblical freewill is bogus. Biblically anyway, in reality it's all fairytale stuff. So your god moves outside of the space time continuum, knows all but is restricted to human logical axioms? It can't create a perfect society with all the norms including appreciation an freewill without torturing people mercilessly for simply following the logical programing god gave them in the first place? So much for you fallible word of god.

MayCaesar

Factfinder said:

@MayCaesar

Amazing the number of coincidences that the characteristics of god has with its human creators, isn't it? 

"We are created in god's image" and all... At the same time, god is somehow not to take responsibility for our actions. It is a "killer robot factory" mental exercise all over again.

Factfinder

MayCaesar said:

Factfinder said:

@MayCaesar

Amazing the number of coincidences that the characteristics of god has with its human creators, isn't it? 

"We are created in god's image" and all... At the same time, god is somehow not to take responsibility for our actions. It is a "killer robot factory" mental exercise all over again.

True, god is the machines. It sends terminators to convince people they deserve hell because god created them and says so. It's like, it's your fault you let me create you! 

Joeseph

@just_sayin

Wow! Yet another uneducated American  "Christian" who hasn't a clue what he's on about , you really need to open a bible.....

And to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly
 realms (Ephesians 3:9,10

RickeyHoltsclaw

Argument Topic: Why did Elohim create?

@JulesKorngold ; @just_sayin ; @Factfinder ; @Joeseph ; @MayCaesar ; @Putin ; @JulesKorngold ; @21CenturyIconoclast ; @Dreamer ; @Barnardot ; @ZeusAres42

When students of Scripture and history reflect upon the wars and death and suffering and calamity that manifests throughout the Torah and subsequently to this very day, they wonder why a loving and compassionate Creator would permit such chaos. What most do NOT understand is the causation and purposes under girding our creation and this temporary Realm of Time constrained by physics.

You and I are in this cosmic vacuum due to an unfathomable war that was initiated in the Kingdom of Elohim before Time was created and all that we perceive with our senses and beyond is the resultant of that war and Elohim’s endeavor to restore order and peace to His Kingdom while simultaneously maintaining volitional love with His angelic creation; an angelic creation that Elohim loves and cherishes beyond human comprehension.

It is critical to understanding causation for the creation narrative that the previous 6000-years of horror are a bulwark against future rebellion in the Kingdom where free will exists by necessity; this, as Elohim is allowing the evil introduced by a rebellious anointed cherub angel to play-out within the constraints of Time and physics for all to see and the conclusion of the matter will be that obedience and loyalty to Elohim and His sovereignty is the only sustainable path to a life (both spiritual and physical) worth living and that rebellion, selfishness, covetousness, self-righteousness, are unsustainable pathways to horror, sorrow, death, nihilism.

All that we confront with our senses in this temporary life within a temporary World and Heaven is an eschatological bulwark against future rebellion in the Kingdom where free will remains extant by necessity concerning intimacy with Elohim. The primary reason Messiah Jesus entered the Realm of Time was to defeat, destroy, the works of that rebellious anointed cherub and the one-third of the angelic creation that followed him in the Great Kingdom War (1 John 3:8b); this, with the precarious strategy of maintaining volitional love with His cherished angelic creation.

_____________________________________

Elohim explains causation, reasoning, for the creation narrative from the Genesis to the Revelation; in fact, we see the introduction of the major players, the war, the battle strategy, introduced within the first-three chapters of the Genesis narrative.

— In Genesis 1:1, “Elohim” introduces Himself via a plural noun with a singular verb.

— In Genesis 1:2, The Holy Spirit introduces Himself as the Logistical Overseer of all things created.

— In Genesis 1:26-28, we see the collaboration of Elohim as “Us” and “Our” – Father-Son-Spirit creating the complex human genome in the spiritual image of Elohim thereby imparting certain divine communicable attributes into the human genome specifically for Elohim’s eschatological purposes going forward.

— In Genesis 3, we’re introduced to the rebellious cherub angel that initiated the Kingdom War and that angel has been extricated from the Kingdom and placed partially within the constraints of Time and physics and allowed access to human kind (Ezekiel 28:11+); this, as Jesus tells us that He watched Satan fall from Heaven like lightening (Luke 10:18).

— In Genesis 3:15, we see the declaration of war between Satan and Jesus (Jesus, born of the virgin seed of the woman to circumvent the Adamic sin-nature) and the prophecy that Messiah would be victorious over Satan as crushing the head of Satan but that Jesus would not be unscathed but receive a “bruised heal”…a death suffered on the Cross.

— In Genesis 3:21, we see the divine battle strategy, the Gospel, that Elohim would employ to defeat the works of the Devil (death-Hell-the grave) through the imputation of righteousness, a gifting of righteousness that Elohim, Himself, would provide via the shedding of innocent blood to clothe sinful humanity in an imputed “robe of righteousness” that mankind could not earn, did not deserve; this, as Elohim rejected the works of mankind to cover his own sin and shame by the works of his hands exemplified by the “fig leaves” Adam used to cover his own shame and nakedness. This is the Gospel of Jesus Christ which was ordained “before Time began” (2 Timothy 1:8-10).

Conclusion,

From the Genesis forward, we see Elohim’s eschatological plan working through and around human kind’s free will choices; this, through the Adamic and Noahic generations, through Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, Messiah…this eschatological plan can be followed through the Scriptures as the Holy Spirit methodically explains the who, what, where, when, why, how, concerning the Realm of Time, our purpose within it, and the closure of Time and physics, the New Heaven and the New Earth, the New Jerusalem. All one must do is possess a heart that is willing to receive and believe and seek and study via our Divine Teacher, the precious indwelling Holy Spirit given to all who “believe” Jesus is Messiah (Ephesians 1:13-14; 1 John 2:27).

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

@JulesKorngold

As an apostate I can tell you with assurance the average christian would tell you 'as an expression of love'. That of course begs the question why after eons and eons of eternal time couldn't god create a perfect society without hell and evil? Guess the old bible verse 'nothing is impossible with god' is a lie or god ain't all that. 
 

I don't know if you are interested in an answer to the question, but if you are, then know that the answer to the question what was God doing before creation is that there was no time before creation.  Time is part of space and matter.  Without space there is no time.  There could be an order of things that are greater or lesser, but pre-universe or post-universe, there is no time.  This is the view of Genesis which starts "in the beginning...".  For the record the Nobel prize winner, Roger Penrose argues this same point from a mathematical position.

God is past, present, and future all at the same time.  Does God experience time as the A theory of time or tense theory of time, or a B theory of time where there is an ordered events, but not really a past present, or future?  Who knows.  By the way, these two views are very much debated among physicists. 

So, the quick answer was God wasn't sitting around.  God's intention to create the universe begins with the creation of the universe because there is no time before the creation of the universe.  Further, every time the Bible touches on the issue of why did God create the universe, or man, the response is 'for His glory."  .  

Mathematics can never prove or disprove god. Yeah, which is why biblical freewill is bogus. Biblically anyway, in reality it's all fairytale stuff. So your god moves outside of the space time continuum, knows all but is restricted to human logical axioms? It can't create a perfect society with all the norms including appreciation an freewill without torturing people mercilessly for simply following the logical programing god gave them in the first place? So much for you fallible word of god.

I recognize that your argument is a straw man, but honestly, I don't understand enough of what you are trying to say to really respond fully to it. 

First, Penrose math is about the nature of the pre-universe, and post-universe periods in his research.  He isn't trying to prove God, I just mentioned it because I wanted to give you a scientific point of reference for the idea of how time works.  

You have falsely stated that God could not create a perfect universe.  I've pointed out, that God could not truly create a world with love in it if there was no free will.  True love is given freely, not compelled.  God could have created a world without evil, but a world with love in it , requires free will.  Free will permits the possibility of sin.  You have demanded a logically inconsistent fallacy - you want a world with free will to love, but not have any free will.  Logically, a world has free will or it doesn't.  If it has free will, then it must accept the consequences of free will.  This is not a problem on God's part, but, and I don't mean to be rude, a lack of understanding of logical fallacies on your part.  You might as well have asked God to create of world full of dogs but no dogs are permitted to exist.  Again, I don't think the problem is God's, but your understanding of what free will entails.

just_sayin

Joeseph said:

@just_sayin

Wow! Yet another uneducated American  "Christian" who hasn't a clue what he's on about , you really need to open a bible.....

And to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly
 realms (Ephesians 3:9,10

Hey Dee,  where have you been?

How does the Bible verse contradict what I mentioned about how God created the universe and us for his glory?  I'm not following you.

The surrounding context of the passage you cite is:

Though I am the least deserving of all God’s people, he graciously gave me the privilege of telling the Gentiles about the endless treasures available to them in Christ. 9 I was chosen to explain to everyone this mysterious plan that God, the Creator of all things, had kept secret from the beginning. 10 God’s purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord.

He is specifically talking about Jesus taking away our sins on the cross.  

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Free Will?

If God knows what we will do in the future, we have no free will.  Our actions are predetermined.

Factfinder

@just_sayin

I recognize that your argument is a straw man,

One of many, many continuous  errors on your part. Perhaps you didn't understand my argument because I use facts and logic which are incompatible with the blind faith you use. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@JulesKorngold ;  Omniscience does not suggest predestination or an absence of free will among the created angels or humanity but each is free to choose whom they will serve and our omnipotent Creator works through and around individual choices to accomplish His perfect eschatological will for Time and Eternity, an eschatological will that is immutable.

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Angels??!

@RickeyHoltsclaw
You cite angels to argue for free will?  Seriously?

ZeusAres42

Because he was bored with the other trillion universes he'd already created.

RickeyHoltsclaw

JulesKorngold said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw
You cite angels to argue for free will?  Seriously?

@JulesKorngold ; It is due the free will of angels that the Creation Narrative manifest in the first place. Had the angels not possessed volition, there would have been no coup d'état; hence, no need for the creation of the Heavens, Earth, physics, Time, our genome, as a repository for the ensuing Kingdom War. It is the pride and volition of an anointed cherub and the one-third of the angelic creation that followed that anointed cherub in a horrific rebellion in the Spiritual Realm that initiated our creation; therefore, FREE WILL is central to our very creation, existence, in Time. 

 

PorfirioDiaz

The hypothesis posits that the inception of the universe is driven by fundamental physical laws governing its expansion and evolution. It asserts that all constituents of the universe, including matter and energy, emerged from a primordial event commonly referred to as the Big Bang.

Within this framework, the hypothesis suggests that the sustenance of entities, including biological organisms, is contingent upon the acquisition and utilization of energy, as dictated by thermodynamic principles. It emphasizes the role of energy transfer and transformation, rather than anthropomorphic concepts such as prayer, in sustaining the functionality and vitality of organisms.The resilience of political regimes, such as that observed in North Korea, is attributed to geopolitical strategies, economic policies, and sociopolitical dynamics, rather than metaphysical concepts. While rituals and cultural practices may influence social cohesion and political stability, their impact is analyzed within the context of sociological and psychological frameworks, rather than as sources of tangible energy.The hypothesis underscores the universal applicability of physical laws governing energy exchange and transformation. It posits that all entities, from subatomic particles to celestial bodies, operate within a framework governed by these laws, which facilitate the realization of objectives through natural processes.

Moreover, the hypothesis acknowledges the functional role of human life within ecosystems and Earth's biosphere, as supported by ecological principles and evolutionary biology. It rejects notions of human exceptionalism and emphasizes the interconnectedness of all organisms within the web of life.

In summary, the hypothesis aligns with established scientific principles and empirical evidence, emphasizing the role of physical processes and natural laws in shaping the universe and sustaining life forms within it.Additionally, the hypothesis encourages further exploration and experimentation within the scientific community to elucidate the mechanisms underlying universal origins and energy dynamics, rather than relying on speculative or metaphysical explanations.

just_sayin

PorfirioDiaz said:

The hypothesis posits that the inception of the universe is driven by fundamental physical laws governing its expansion and evolution. It asserts that all constituents of the universe, including matter and energy, emerged from a primordial event commonly referred to as the Big Bang.

Within this framework, the hypothesis suggests that the sustenance of entities, including biological organisms, is contingent upon the acquisition and utilization of energy, as dictated by thermodynamic principles. It emphasizes the role of energy transfer and transformation, rather than anthropomorphic concepts such as prayer, in sustaining the functionality and vitality of organisms.The resilience of political regimes, such as that observed in North Korea, is attributed to geopolitical strategies, economic policies, and sociopolitical dynamics, rather than metaphysical concepts. While rituals and cultural practices may influence social cohesion and political stability, their impact is analyzed within the context of sociological and psychological frameworks, rather than as sources of tangible energy.The hypothesis underscores the universal applicability of physical laws governing energy exchange and transformation. It posits that all entities, from subatomic particles to celestial bodies, operate within a framework governed by these laws, which facilitate the realization of objectives through natural processes.

Moreover, the hypothesis acknowledges the functional role of human life within ecosystems and Earth's biosphere, as supported by ecological principles and evolutionary biology. It rejects notions of human exceptionalism and emphasizes the interconnectedness of all organisms within the web of life.

In summary, the hypothesis aligns with established scientific principles and empirical evidence, emphasizing the role of physical processes and natural laws in shaping the universe and sustaining life forms within it.Additionally, the hypothesis encourages further exploration and experimentation within the scientific community to elucidate the mechanisms underlying universal origins and energy dynamics, rather than relying on speculative or metaphysical explanations.

This is an example of generative AI, based on Stanford's foundation model of LLMs.  Rather than specifically being encoded for a specific field, the foundational model uses many terabytes of data, generally pulled from the internet, to build a generic model. The application is typically trained/tuned by determining the next word in a phrase such as 'I do not like green eggs and ______'.  This trains it to associate words and terms with subject matter.  It can then be used for many different types of functions - language functions (LLMS), voice functions - (music, speaking), coding functions (like copilot).  A weakness is that it will often not be able to return specific responses for questions. Its comments are often too generic to add any substantial information to the discussion. (@ZeusAres42- ; This is to specifically help you to understand why your posts are so generic and that they usually don't add anything.)  And no, this was not AI generated.

just_sayin

ZeusAres42 said:

Because he was bored with the other trillion universes he'd already created.

Well, no matter how many universes there are or when God started creating them, the logical conclusion is that He existed an eternity before any universe was started.  So, having had an eternity by Himself, I doubt He deals with boredom (did you think that out before you wrote it).   This is actually a serious issue though for those who believe our universe is part of a larger multiverse.  The reason being is that if there is some eternally existing universe making machine out there (and it would need to be infinitely fined tuned more than our universe), that even if universes are birthed an infinite amount of time apart, the radiation from an eternity of universes would be deadly to our own universe and make life here impossible.  Further, rather than seeing an expanding universe, if there had been infinite universes before ours, we would instead see a universe where stars are moving in all directions not just further apart.  just sayin

PorfirioDiaz

Would you say it were possible for there to exist a super computer AI in any  technological state where it advanced individually from  taking commands to help humans/beings to  learning and facilitating a physical world for humans to live in while AI controls all aspects of it. Creating world leaders who look and act human but are actual robots generated and controllled by AI. What would be the purpose? an AI who has super exceled in all all aspects that the only thing it cannot understand is how to live life as a human. Therefore a supercomputer creating the world we live in without realizing it.

I think The real question is,

If inhabitants of a simulated world were indistinguishable from humans in terms of their experiences and perceptions, would their reality be any less valid?


How would we define the boundary between simulation and reality?

just_sayin

PorfirioDiaz said:

Would you say it were possible for there to exist a super computer AI in any  technological state where it advanced individually from  taking commands to help humans/beings to  learning and facilitating a physical world for humans to live in while AI controls all aspects of it. Creating world leaders who look and act human but are actual robots generated and controllled by AI. What would be the purpose? an AI who has super exceled in all all aspects that the only thing it cannot understand is how to live life as a human. Therefore a supercomputer creating the world we live in without realizing it.

I think The real question is,

If inhabitants of a simulated world were indistinguishable from humans in terms of their experiences and perceptions, would their reality be any less valid?


How would we define the boundary between simulation and reality?

Can an AI have consciousness?  

Factfinder

@just_sayin

Can an AI have consciousness?  

Can the fictious god of your choice?