Does Ireland have free speech?

MayCaesar

Something to point out about jurisprudence is that a comparable amount of effort is put into working out the interpretation of laws according to the spirit of the system to working out the proper phrasing of said laws. It is not uncommon for laws to be vague at their face, yet have established interpretations of them that are quite concrete. For instance, the French Constitution has the following Article:

"The free communication of ideas and of opinions is one of the most precious rights of man.  Any citizen may therefore speak, write and publish freely, except what is tantamount to the abuse of this liberty in the cases determined by Law." - Article 11, French Constitution.

The literal meaning of this is "anyone is free to say whatever they want, unless the law prohibits it" - which really says nothing other than "the law is to be obeyed". However, the "spirit" of the Constitution is seen by the French Constitutional Council as strongly discouraging the lawmakers from imposing any explicit restrictions of speech. The Constitution does not explicitly state that the government cannot nationalize all media companies, for instance - however, an attempt of the government to do so will certainly be met with a very strong opposition in the Council, and the French citizens will go on the streets en masse and initiate the six revolution.

Furthermore, freedom of speech always lays somewhere on the spectrum, and the spectrum is not even one-dimensional. It is inaccurate to say that North Korea has absolutely no free speech, as that would imply that people cannot say anything whatsoever without punishment - but it has very little free speech compared to the rest of the world. It is also inaccurate to say that the US has absolute free speech: yelling "Murder all Jewish pigs!" in front of the Congress building on July 4th is going to get you arrested - but the US arguably has more free speech than any other country in the world.

Moreover, so far I have only talked about explicitly speech free from governmental intervention. There are other ways in which speech can be restricted. In many Islamic countries the government will not punish you for partaking in many forms of haram, but people around you will likely employ violence against you, and the fear of it (whether the violence is legal or not) will practically strongly discourage you from doing that. In the private setting speech can also be non-coercively restricted, and while many will say that this is nothing but mere extension of the property rights, it still results in restrictions on what one can say. Finally, expressing certain opinions can lead to extreme social ostracizion, to the point of the individual being able to remain in the society - in many remote rural communities in the US proclaiming that you renounce Christianity and become a Muslim will essentially force you to leave, as your life in the community is going to be unbearable from then on.

Speaking your mind, especially if you have controversial opinions, in Ireland is less safe than I would like - but it certainly is more safe than in 95% of countries out there. In most countries publishing an article in a newspaper harshly criticizing anyone with a lot of power makes you a target of people with very ill intentions: try, for instance, publishing an article in Thailand calling the king a thief and see what happens to you. Ireland, at least, does not have any of that, which already makes it a very free country on the relative scale.

Dee

@MayCaesar


Excellent piece May

Speaking your mind, especially if you have controversial opinions, in Ireland is less safe than I would like

Radio shows ,newspapers  , TV etc, etc will allow people of various different mindsets  vent away, we are I feel as free as anywhere else in that regard.

It always depends on who is involved and  public perception and the way its spun by media. I think all speech is limited no matter where one lives if the government don't limit it the workplace certainly will as will owners of media as in newspapers , print , radio , TV. 

Totally "" free speech" is a myth in many ways.

MichaelElpers

@MayCaesar

Clearly there is a scale for free speech. My concern is the continual call for elimination of ideas they oppose  eroding it while people continue to claim they have it.

With the calls for hate speech and handing that determination over to the government Ireland may continue be in the 95 percentile while still having a large erosion of what they are allowed to say due to others doing the same or worse.

Not being allowed to say Irish lives matter in Ireland is pretty appauling.

There needs to be very clear boundaries about what exceeds freedom of speech as to not give majority authority power to quelch the minority.  To me that is solely a specific call to violence or libel.

Dee

@MichaelElpers

Clearly there is a scale for free speech. My concern is the continual call for elimination of ideas they oppose  eroding it while people continue to claim they have it.

Yes and that scale is set depending on where you are and who you're talking to. Thats a pretty vague statement. 

CWith the calls for hate speech and handing that determination over to the government Ireland may continue be in the 95 percentile while still having a largosion of what they are allowed to say due to others doing the same or worse.

Far right fanatics held a demonstration recently over here I didn't see any arrests for hate speech.

Not being allowed to say Irish lives matter in Ireland is pretty appauling.

I can nearly guarantee you can say Irish lives matter , where's your source , links?

There needs to be very clear boundaries about what exceeds freedom of speech as to not give majority authority power to quelch the minority. 

Yes

To me that is solely a specific call to violence or libel.

What specifically are you referring to?

Dee

@MichaelElpers

Now you can be charged for a hate crime for putting up a sign saying Irish lives matter in Ireland.


Get your facts straight your information is regarding Nothern Ireland 

MayCaesar

@Dee

I will admit that I know quite a bit less about Ireland than I would like to, but my perception based on what I do know is that it, indeed, is about as free as most developed Western countries are. It is hard to develop a proper metric to measure something as complicated as this, but, at the very least, we can divide all countries into generally free (those where people can speak their mind on political matters without fearing for their life) and generally unfree (those where that is not the case), and Ireland definitely belongs to the former group. I have never heard of someone in Ireland going to jail for criticizing the government, and "hate speech crimes", despite the amount of publicity they get, still seem to very rarely lead to prosecution.

When I think of the idea of going somewhere and making a political speech in front of the crowd, Ireland is not one of the countries which make me feel uncomfortable and wanting to walk on eggshells.




@MichaelElpers

I think that this is a bit of a one-sided way of looking at things. The nature of culture is such that it focuses on different things at different times, and, rather than things generally becoming more unfree, in my perception they become freer in some respects and less free in other respects.

An example of what is more dangerous to say in Ireland today than 50 years ago is: "Ireland is for the Irish! Everyone else, go home!"
An example of what is less dangerous to say: "Jesus gave better blowjobs than the Pope! To hell with Catholics!"

I do not disagree with you on the general sentiment: I too strongly dislike any attempts of any government to either explicitly suppress free speech, or implicitly do so by giving the majority the ability to tyrannize the minority. It seems to me, however, that a historical and geopolitical perspective is important. Sure, Ireland today is not as free as it could be, or as it likely will be 1,000 years from now... But that is an unfair comparison.

Dee

@MayCaesar

I will admit that I know quite a bit less about Ireland than I would like to, but my perception based on what I do know is that it, indeed, is about as free as most developed Western countries are.

That's spot on. Michael Elpers jumped on a story regarding an incident in Belfast , Northern Ireland which is as you know has different government and laws compared to the Republic of Ireland.


 It is hard to develop a proper metric to measure something as complicated as this, but, at the very least, we can divide all countries into generally free (those where people can speak their mind on political matters without fearing for their life) and generally unfree (those where that is not the case), and Ireland definitely belongs to the former group. 

Yes,I'm certain you or I could name off a list of countries where we would indeed fear for life and limb if we spoke our minds.


I have never heard of someone in Ireland going to jail for criticizing the government, and "hate speech crimes", despite the amount of publicity they get, still seem to very rarely lead to prosecution.

Nor have I and I live here. There have been 5 convictions for hate crime since 1989 which states its an offence to create or distribute racist , homophones or other discriminatory materials, but none I know of for " hate speech crimes".


When I think of the idea of going somewhere and making a political speech in front of the crowd, Ireland is not one of the countries which make me feel uncomfortable and wanting to walk on eggshells.

You would be absolutely fine doing so over here , the law I'm sure is very similar in the US regarding such