New Year, New Leftist Laws, More Suffering for the Poor

just_sayin

Argument Topic: Minimum Wage Worker's Hours Decrease When Minimum Wage Hikes Occurs

According to the Harvard Business Review, every $1 increase in the minimum wage, the number of hours each worker worked per week decreased by 20.8%: 

For every $1 increase in the minimum wage, we found that the total number of workers scheduled to work each week increased by 27.7%, while the average number of hours each worker worked per week decrease by 20.8%. For an average store in California, these changes translated into four extra workers per week and five fewer hours per worker per week — which meant that the total wage compensation of an average minimum wage worker in a California store actually fell by 13.6%.

Notice that the cumulative effect of the minimum wage hike was to decrease the average minimum wage worker's income by 13.6%.

Factfinder

The left are experts at dangling carrots because they know most people won't delve deep into the numbers. It won't surprise be if no one defends the data you produced with well thought out reasons. I believe it is because they know, as I know, raising minimum wage only deals with half the equation. In order for that to have a chance, you have to introduce massive price freezes across the spectrum for a significant amount of time. And we all know they do not have the stomach for that. Their finacial supporters would never allow it.

Dreamer

@Factfinder

Minimum wage is too advanced a topic for me. Thought that won't stop the far right from using a bullhorn on such a nuanced topic.

https://www.npr.org/2021/01/29/962124776/should-we-raise-the-minimum-wage

The core of the problem is that the rich and powerful have many options available that most people don't. Just as they can evade taxes they can dodge minimum wage laws.

"The U.S. tax code is full of loopholes, and time and time again, U.S. billionaires have demonstrated how skilled they — and their accountants — are at making use of them.

The rich can also relocate to avoid paying higher taxes. Recently, Musk moved to Texas, a state that has no income tax.

France is another example of the limits of a wealth tax. After imposing higher taxes on the rich, more than 40,000 millionaires left the country."

https://www.npr.org/2021/11/13/1054711913/progressives-wealth-tax-super-rich-elon-musk-jeff-bezos

just_sayin

Dreamer said:

@Factfinder

Minimum wage is too advanced a topic for me. Thought that won't stop the far right from using a bullhorn on such a nuanced topic.

https://www.npr.org/2021/01/29/962124776/should-we-raise-the-minimum-wage

The core of the problem is that the rich and powerful have many options available that most people don't. Just as they can evade taxes they can dodge minimum wage laws.

"The U.S. tax code is full of loopholes, and time and time again, U.S. billionaires have demonstrated how skilled they — and their accountants — are at making use of them.

The rich can also relocate to avoid paying higher taxes. Recently, Musk moved to Texas, a state that has no income tax.

France is another example of the limits of a wealth tax. After imposing higher taxes on the rich, more than 40,000 millionaires left the country."

https://www.npr.org/2021/11/13/1054711913/progressives-wealth-tax-super-rich-elon-musk-jeff-bezos

A fallacy that some believe is that rich people are like chess pieces that they can just move around the board.  The rich and the poor alike, are not static pieces, but have minds of their own.  50% of all people who make the minimum wage are under 18.  Guess what?  By raising the minimum wage, the teen unemployment rate will increase - and historically always does when there are minimum wage increases.  Some think employers will absorb the pay increase.  Instead the employer makes up that money by either cutting workers hours, cutting benefits, cutting jobs, increasing their prices, or automating jobs with technology.  Pizza Hut has responded to California's minimum wage hike by ending delivery drivers - you'll have to have DoorDash or GrubHub pick up your pizza and pay them.

Politicians are well aware of minimum wage research and know that minimum wage hikes hurt minimum wage workers.  Know that their interests are not the same as the workers.  Their interests are to get reelected, not to make things better for minimum wage workers.  As long as the media doesn't run too many stories on how the minimum wage hurt minimum wage workers, they can sell their bill as them helping the poor.

Factfinder

@Dreamer

Yes, the rich, liberal and conservative alike take advantage of loop holes. And the same rich on the liberal side love to make speeches on how raising the minimum wage will improve life for the working poor and the poor. Never does. Do you ever wonder why your rich liberal leaders (who often hob nob with their counter parts on the other side of the isle) try the same thing over and over always getting the same failed results? Meeting the definition of insanity? It's because they're getting the results they like. Let that sink in if you can.

just_sayin

McDonald's $18 Big Mac Meal Goes Viral Again As Fast Food Minimum Wage Hike To $20 Triggers Fears Of Skyrocketing Prices And Layoffs, Leaving People Questioning: 'Maybe This Went Up Way Too Fast'

$18 for a Big Mac meal in Connecticut!!!!!!  The amount of inflation from the Democrat's minimum wage bill is going to cause minimum wage workers to suffer even more.  

Factfinder

That's true @Dreamer. The right manipulates and lies about minimum wage too. The problem is while both sides point at the other to blame we keep seeing declines of quality of life while high level party officials on both sides enjoy massive increases. How do we change that?

just_sayin

Mass layoffs begin in California as corporations retaliate against new state minimum wage laws

Mass layoffs have been announced for workers in the fast food and healthcare industries in California in response to two bills that will raise minimum wages for workers in both industries. Wages in the fast food industry go to $20 an hour this year, and healthcare workers’ wages rise to between $18 - $23 an hour in the next year.
Fast food chain Pizza Hut, operated by PacPizza, LLC, recently announced its plan to lay off more than 1,200 workers across California, as outlined in a federal WARN Act notice filed by the chain in December 2023. The layoffs reflect the ongoing social crisis in California, the country’s most populous state, as workers struggle to afford the high cost of living. 
Soon after passage of the minimum wage bill, Kaiser Permanente, one of California’s largest healthcare worker employers, also announced its decision to lay off 115 of its IT workers. 

The Marxist news site is surprised that corporations would respond this way.  What socialists don't get is that companies exist to make a profit.  They pass on their costs - to their employees (by cutting hours, benefits, or jobs) or to their customers (by increased costs).  Instead of helping low wage workers the rate hike has just cost them their benefits, hours, or jobs, and make everything they buy more expensive.  You can't artificially raise wages without raising inflation or hurting workers in other ways, but SJWs want to feel good, even when they are doing evil.

just_sayin

Argument Topic: Up to 50,000 to lose Jobs due to minimum wage in California

"Some estimates suggest that we could have up to 50,000 jobs lost in the state of California," explains David Smith, a professor at Pepperdine University. -  Minimum wage pay increase already impacting local workforce

I wonder if the people who lose their jobs and can't find a job will think that the minimum wage increase helped them, or hurt them.

MayCaesar

The incoherence of the minimum wage policy should be apparent to anyone even vaguely familiar with economics. That it is possible to rise the price of a product without simultaneously dropping consumption of that product - is a ridiculous assumption. Yet that is precisely what this policy is intended to do: to rise the price of the product (labor) without dropping its consumption (hiring of the labor).

I am not sure what they teach in schools that makes people oblivious to this simple logic. Has anyone ever seen anything at all in life working like this: something becoming more expensive, yet no less attractive? "Hey, let's increase the price of our gym membership from $20 to $50 a month; we cannot lose any customers, can we?!" - said no one ever.

just_sayin

MayCaesar said:

The incoherence of the minimum wage policy should be apparent to anyone even vaguely familiar with economics. That it is possible to rise the price of a product without simultaneously dropping consumption of that product - is a ridiculous assumption. Yet that is precisely what this policy is intended to do: to rise the price of the product (labor) without dropping its consumption (hiring of the labor).

I am not sure what they teach in schools that makes people oblivious to this simple logic. Has anyone ever seen anything at all in life working like this: something becoming more expensive, yet no less attractive? "Hey, let's increase the price of our gym membership from $20 to $50 a month; we cannot lose any customers, can we?!" - said no one ever.

Artificially increasing salaries by hiking the minimum wage has unintended consequences.  Companies don't cut their own profits when this happens, they pass those costs on.  They either cut workers hours, benefits, or jobs or pass on the increased costs to customers.  That means that minimum wage hikes means a never ending cycle of more and more inflation.  As the minimum wage goes up, the cost of everything goes up, which means more minimum wage hikes, etc. etc.

MayCaesar

just_sayin said:

Artificially increasing salaries by hiking the minimum wage has unintended consequences.  Companies don't cut their own profits when this happens, they pass those costs on.  They either cut workers hours, benefits, or jobs or pass on the increased costs to customers.  That means that minimum wage hikes means a never ending cycle of more and more inflation.  As the minimum wage goes up, the cost of everything goes up, which means more minimum wage hikes, etc. etc.

See, I have a problem with the use of term "unintended consequences" in such cases. An unintended consequence could be something that is hard to foresee, something that defies intuition and seemingly simple logic - for example, the outcome of the policy issuing awards for turning in rat tails has as an unintended consequence increase of artificial breeding of rats, and unless the policy maker is aware of similar effects of other historical policies, it is very hard to see it coming. But here, the price of a good is increased by law - that the demand for the good will drop should be obvious to anyone. It should be obvious to a 2 year old child that having to give up 3 toys in exchange for 1 toy makes that toy less desirable, than having to give up only 2 toys for it.

The long-term inflatory effects you are talking about are more complex, yet even they are not that hard to predict for someone who has done any study whatsoever of basic economics, or thinking about basic economical effects without seriously studying them. I have to think that people purposefully blind themselves to simple logic when it conflicts with their moral values. If someone believes that it is somehow fundamentally unjust to pay below a certain amount of money for even a very easy job, then they will put this moral judgement above any logical considerations. Even in this case I do not think it fair to call it "unintended consequences". If I drink a bottle of vodka while repeating the mantra, "I will not get drunk, I will not get drunk" - should I be surprised when I wake up next morning with a galactic headache?

just_sayin

So what happened after California implemented its anti-gig worker law?

Self-employment in California fell by 10.5 percent and overall employment tumbled by 4.4 percent after A.B. 5's implementation. - California's Attack on Gig Work Predictably Drove Workers Out of Jobs

Worse, Inflation Joe wants to do nationally what California did to its gig economy.  So this will devastate the part-time careers of musicians, wedding planners, drivers, photographers, actors, bakers, etc.  We all see how this helps unions which contribute lots of money to Democrats, but how does it help the gig economy or gig worker?  

Openminded

Argument Topic: Many new laws went into effect on January 1, 2024 which will disproportionately harm poor people. 22 states raised the minimum wage.

@just_sayin

Firstly, many economists said that we would be in a recession at this point. Far from it. Secondly, inflation has decreased greatly. Thirdly,  I find it curious that wealthy corporations are not being scrutinized as being at least a contributor to inflation. Because McDonalds raises their costs on food does not necessarily mean that minimum wage increases is the problem. To say the expensive McDonalds meal is because of minimum wage increase is a simple minded view of a very complex problem.

How about looking into corporate greed and price gouging as another contributing issue?

• McDonald's gross profit for the twelve months ending September 30, 2023 was $14.317B, a 9.63% increase year-over-year.
• McDonald's annual gross profit for 2022 was $13.207B, a 4.98% increase from 2021.

https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/MCD/mcdonalds/gross-profit

I find it concerning that not only are ¨liberal¨ policies being blamed, but lower and middle class Americans are being exploited as wealthy corporations are profittering while being protected from criticism. It is a typical misconception that ¨socialist¨ policies are driving the failing economy while the shielded corporations continue to profit yearly. This is quite evident when researching corporate profits during and after the pandemic. It´s sad that we´ve been reduced to exploited peasants left to fend for each other while the wealthy profiteer.  Have you seen the rise in ¨GoFundMe¨ pleas? Many Americans cannot afford health care costs so they not only are struggling with the trauma of loss or ill health, but they need to appeal to other struggling Americans for help to pay their health care costs. And, how about grocery stores (the lower end of the profitterring chain)? To continue their pilfering, they are using automated check out now - so it´s a double insult for customers. They not only pay exorbitant prices caused largely by corporate profiteering; now insult is added to injury by making the ripped off customer do their own work to check out.

There are several contributing factors to inflation. Inflation is typical and has averaged around 3.27% for decades. If we are talking about the unusually high inflation that´s occurred in the past few years - pre and post covid - let´s not forget other issues that contribute. Inflation generally is caused by an imbalance in supply and demand, a disruption in supply chains and importantly - inflation expectation fears like workers´ demand for higher wages to prepare for inflation and from a company perspective - raising prices to adjust for wage increases. The average inflation rate of 3.27% can be useful economically but the high inflation we´ve experienced has greatly impaired our economy and its long-term expectations. High inflation generally benefits real estate, energy commodities, and stocks. 

The current administration is scrutinizing corporate profitteering as a contributor to inflation.  Below is a chart of McDonalds yearly profits. Notice the profit they´ve made both pre, during and post Covid.

Rising gas prices?  Supply and demand at first, but after supply chain problems were cleared, they continue to profit. The below is an example of profiteering.

I believe that inflation causes are many and complex, but corporate profiteering should be examined more broadly as a major contributor to inflation. I do believe many Americans are ignorant and tend to wrongly blame the presidency. Many are either misinformed and disinformed by right-wing news channels (that profit off of sensationalizing and mis,disinformation). It´s time Americans consider that lower and middle income Americans are being exploited. We are being gentrified by corporatism. The chasm between the wealthy and middle class is widening. 

jack

just_sayin said:

Artificially increasing salaries by hiking the minimum wage has unintended consequences.  Companies don't cut their own profits when this happens, they pass those costs on.

Hello j:

I was in the restaurant business for 30 years..  What I noticed, is that EVERYTHING went up, all the time.  Rent, gas, taxes, food, paper; in short, EVERYTHING, went up including wages..  That's the way that worked.  

Yes, of course I passed those costs on to my customers.  That's how that works.  Some of my customers didn't want to pay more, and didn't have to.  If there were lots of them, my business would have failed.  But, my customers liked what I did, and willingly paid more..  And, that's how that works.

To blame rising costs on employees is, first off, not true, and secondly it's shortsighted..  Your employees have to love producing for you.  If yours do, you survive..  If they don't, you crash..  That's how that works.

excon

Factfinder

@Openminded

It is right to blame a presidency that actively manipulates the economy in order to coerce their own citizens into a transition that no one is even close to be able to successfully accomplish. Biden pulled the rug out from under our energy companies with the pipe line and pretending to grant leases on federal land only to stop them in their tracks in a sea of red tape. He did this as a promise to fellow socialist to get big oil. So yes, Biden caused it on purpose and he deserve no credit for any marginal recovery that comes about despite his sabotage. We have enough oil in the ground within our borders to supply the world. And it would be much cleaner burning and producing the oil so we would also reduce our carbon foot prints as well. Ah but that's just another ploy used by the left to use in their never ending search for the main prize, centralized power over the people. So yes, socialism and this presidency did cause inflation. Be proud, it was calculated. 

Large corporations are in business for profit. That's the American dream, work hard, make money, let your money make money. It is in this way capitalism provided jobs and careers, and thus brought our country out of poverty and into prosperity. I'm retired, and no longer make a wage. But I am still making money because my retirement account is making me money. You seem to confuse that with profiteering. If you need an example of profiteering, check out the oligarchs in socialist russia.

just_sayin

@Openminded
McDonald's profits are up for several reasons - they raised prices (due to leftists policies like minimum wage hikes), and digital orders (thanks to leftists policies like in California where the gig driver pays more now), and they cut their work force - yet again thanks to leftist minimum wage hikes.

In 2013, McDonald's had 400,000 employees, in 2023, it has 150,000.  In 2022 it had 200,000.  See at trend?  Leftist policies have resulted in far fewer jobs and have sped up automation and kiosk services.  McDonald's passed on those leftist minimum wage hikes to customers, and still fired 50,000 employees.  Thank you leftists for hurting even more workers.

If leftists weren't so greedy and envious, and instead wanted to help workers, they would not have implemented the minimum wage hikes, nor the anti-gig bills like in California.  These devastated workers.  60% of minimum wage jobs are second jobs that people pick up to make extra money.  44.7% of all employees earning the federal minimum wage are between the ages of 16 to 24.  Their jobs are the ones that are disappearing.  If the goal was to make people dependent on government handouts, then Biden's policies succeeded.

Biden's Inflation act triggered massive inflation.  You may try and say that inflation month over month has slowed, but when you look back to the day Biden took office, everyone can see that Bidenflation has harmed working families.  

Openminded

@Factfinder
It is right to blame a presidency that actively manipulates the economy in order to coerce their own citizens into a transition that no one is even close to be able to successfully accomplish. Biden pulled the rug out from under our energy companies with the pipe line and pretending to grant leases on federal land only to stop them in their tracks in a sea of red tape. He did this as a promise to fellow socialist to get big oil. So yes, Biden caused it on purpose and he deserve no credit for any marginal recovery that comes about despite his sabotage. We have enough oil in the ground within our borders to supply the world. And it would be much cleaner burning and producing the oil so we would also reduce our carbon foot prints as well. Ah but that's just another ploy used by the left to use in their never ending search for the main prize, centralized power over the people. So yes, socialism and this presidency did cause inflation. Be proud, it was calculated. 

I have researched your claim that Biden actively manipulated the economy and find absolutely nothing on this. Can you please post some verification on this?  To claim that he did this so Americans would fail seems highly unlikely.

And your claim that Biden pretending to grant leases on federal land? Again please verify this with some proof. This again makes no sense.

We´re trying to wean from oil to clean up our environment so future generations can live in clean air. ???  We have ¨CLEANER¨ burning oil to reduce our carbon footprint? Again, please post proof. 

Large corporations are in business for profit. That's the American dream, work hard, make money, let your money make money. It is in this way capitalism provided jobs and careers, and thus brought our country out of poverty and into prosperity. I'm retired, and no longer make a wage. But I am still making money because my retirement account is making me money. You seem to confuse that with profiteering. If you need an example of profiteering, check out the oligarchs in socialist russia.

Well of course corporations are in business for profit. Profiting is reasonable, Profiteering is exploitation of Americans and nothing but greed. Most wealthy corporations´ profits were higher during Covid and now post Covid. This is nothing but greed and pitting Americans against each other. 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/27/inflation-corporate-america-increased-prices-profits

Profits or profiteering?

The Guardian’s findings are in line with recent US commerce department data that shows corporate profits rose 35% during the last year and are at their highest level since 1950. Inflation, meanwhile, rose to 8.5% year over year in March.

The Guardian’s analysis is the first to take a granular look at a cross-section of companies across a range of industries. It compared the most recent quarter’s profits to the same quarter two years prior, pre-pandemic. Price increases were obtained by checking earnings reports, though those often lacked specifics.

Openminded

Argument Topic: k

@just_saying

Ya´ll are watching way too much Fox.

jack

Openminded said:

@just_saying

Ya´ll are watching way too much Fox.

Hello O:

It's funny..  My MAGA friend and devoted FOX watcher, tells me Biden is manipulating some market to cause more inflation in order to force us to buy expensive EV'S that won't start when it's cold

Then I read that just_ saying is pissed off at the same damn thing..  Hmmm, says I..

Step away from the FOX News..  It's rotting your brain.

excon

Factfinder

Openminded said:

@Factfinder
It is right to blame a presidency that actively manipulates the economy in order to coerce their own citizens into a transition that no one is even close to be able to successfully accomplish. Biden pulled the rug out from under our energy companies with the pipe line and pretending to grant leases on federal land only to stop them in their tracks in a sea of red tape. He did this as a promise to fellow socialist to get big oil. So yes, Biden caused it on purpose and he deserve no credit for any marginal recovery that comes about despite his sabotage. We have enough oil in the ground within our borders to supply the world. And it would be much cleaner burning and producing the oil so we would also reduce our carbon foot prints as well. Ah but that's just another ploy used by the left to use in their never ending search for the main prize, centralized power over the people. So yes, socialism and this presidency did cause inflation. Be proud, it was calculated. 

I have researched your claim that Biden actively manipulated the economy and find absolutely nothing on this. Can you please post some verification on this?  To claim that he did this so Americans would fail seems highly unlikely.

And your claim that Biden pretending to grant leases on federal land? Again please verify this with some proof. This again makes no sense.

We´re trying to wean from oil to clean up our environment so future generations can live in clean air. ???  We have ¨CLEANER¨ burning oil to reduce our carbon footprint? Again, please post proof. 

Large corporations are in business for profit. That's the American dream, work hard, make money, let your money make money. It is in this way capitalism provided jobs and careers, and thus brought our country out of poverty and into prosperity. I'm retired, and no longer make a wage. But I am still making money because my retirement account is making me money. You seem to confuse that with profiteering. If you need an example of profiteering, check out the oligarchs in socialist russia.

Well of course corporations are in business for profit. Profiting is reasonable, Profiteering is exploitation of Americans and nothing but greed. Most wealthy corporations´ profits were higher during Covid and now post Covid. This is nothing but greed and pitting Americans against each other. 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/27/inflation-corporate-america-increased-prices-profits

Profits or profiteering?

The Guardian’s findings are in line with recent US commerce department data that shows corporate profits rose 35% during the last year and are at their highest level since 1950. Inflation, meanwhile, rose to 8.5% year over year in March.

The Guardian’s analysis is the first to take a granular look at a cross-section of companies across a range of industries. It compared the most recent quarter’s profits to the same quarter two years prior, pre-pandemic. Price increases were obtained by checking earnings reports, though those often lacked specifics.

Well you see you have to have some recollection of just a few years ago. But if it's a link you want a link you shall have. Of course we both know you won't question socialistic indoctrination in lieu of facts. https://www.aei.org/op-eds/as-democrats-debate-high-gas-prices-buy-a-tesla-remains-their-default-policy-even-for-the-poor/

Factfinder

jack said:

Openminded said:

@just_saying

Ya´ll are watching way too much Fox.

Hello O:

It's funny..  My MAGA friend and devoted FOX watcher, tells me Biden is manipulating some market to cause more inflation in order to force us to buy expensive EV'S that won't start when it's cold

Then I read that just_ saying is pissed off at the same damn thing..  Hmmm, says I..

Step away from the FOX News..  It's rotting your brain.

excon

Not fox Jack: https://www.aei.org/op-eds/as-democrats-debate-high-gas-prices-buy-a-tesla-remains-their-default-policy-even-for-the-poor/

MayCaesar

@Openminded

The idea that increase of the minimum wage leads to decrease in demand of labor and, therefore, increase of the cost-to-compensation ratio is not "Fox", but one of the most basic facts of economics.

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

That's what gets me. It must be a prerequisite to deny reality to be pro socialist. When someone says "I have researched your claim that Biden actively manipulated the economy and find absolutely nothing on this."   They deny biden says he controls the economy when he takes credit for unexpected up ticks in the economy. That they claim he should have the credit! Can't really debate that. Just got to point out the folly and move on.  

jack

Not fox Jack: https://www.aei.org/op-eds/as-democrats-debate-high-gas-prices-buy-a-tesla-remains-their-default-policy-even-for-the-poor/

Hello factmachine, or nom:

Ohhh, right...  It's that bastion of left wingerism, the Washington Examiner..

Du*de....  Bwa, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha..

excon

MayCaesar

@Factfinder

I think there are two possible cases here.

The first case is just plain ignorance. Basic economics is not overly complicated, but someone who has never studied any of it and never thought deep about these issues is unlikely to figure it out on their own. I remember back in my first undergraduate year picking up two books, one on micro- and another on macro-economics, and having a revelation upon a revelation while reading them: "Hey, this makes perfect sense! Why have I never thought about it before?"
Without the basic awareness of some aspects of economical processes one will have a very primitive understanding of the subject. They will think that money is just something the government prints and arbitrarily assigns value to, that corporate bosses can randomly get greedy and raise prices on their products and only their conscientiousness may prevent them from doing so, that market is incapable of providing certain goods that people need especially hard and so the government has to provide them...

The second case is worse: dishonesty. It is when the person does understand basic economics, but pretends that in the real world things do not work the way logical reasoning suggests they should. Karl Marx was the most prominent example of this: the guy clearly understood economics well, but decided that it was somehow immoral, and that if a "new man" was raised, then the basic laws of nature could be evaded. That is the denial of reality you are pointing out.

The former group is poisoning societies on the West currently, but the latter group is what leads to creation of some of the most horrifying regimes in human history. It is Bernies and Noams of this world.
The former case is remedied by education: someone who does not understand economics, but is open to understanding it, can spend a month, get into the basic processes, and their prior view on economics will crumble - unfortunately, most people are not willing to do that. The latter case though is chronic: denial of reality is something that is an inherent coping mechanism for many (all?) people.

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

Who can argue against such informative logic May? Yet I'm sure you find plenty who do. 

The thing is the modern socialist doesn't have a clue where there ideology was derived from. Except the puppet masters orchestrating their movement as you insightfully pointed out in your two types theory. They truly are the dishonest ones. They know they're following the play books of Marx and Engels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism#Schools_of_thought

Yet if you correctly refer to their ideology as communistic they rear their heads back and scoff saying no, socialistic! They're the dishonest ones for sure. Because they know Marx made no distinctions between communism and socialism, often using the two words interchangeably. And of course marxism calls for complete governmental control. Which is the prime directive of every leftist politician, especially on the national level and the Presidency. That's the presidents job, to manipulate things in favor of their party. That's the way the left sees it. Especially where 'human rights' and the economy are concerned.  Why would a barmaid worried about loans get so hysterically mad at biden cause it's been two years and her and her drinking buddies still owe money they borrowed? LOL Yes @Openminded, biden manipulates the economy when he can.

I do get the coping mechanism of self willed ignorant ones though. I mean who would want to give up pie in the sky dreams where nothing has to be paid for and government is a benevolent entity that magically produces and distributes to all with no self interest what so ever? 

Factfinder

@Openminded

Why are you so concerned about McDonalds making a profit of 13 or 14 billion  during those time frames. Did you see how much they put back into the economy? Didn't see it on your post anywhere. Or their expenditures after the biden inflation era took hold. Just imagine how many cars, houses, families paying bills and buying groceries... All that society gains from one corporation. Try looking that part up as well. And no I will not do it for you.

Then look up the tens of billions socialists in government gives away to support their interests abroad. 70 billion in 2022 alone. What do they offer our society for that? I will offer you one source that can give you a clue how much of our money is taken from us and given away to other countries. Keep in mind, government steals a persons money before that person even sees their pay check. You really need to learn to read things with objectivity:

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/countries-that-receive-the-most-foreign-aid-from-the-u-s

Openminded

Argument Topic: It is right to blame a presidency that actively manipulates the economy in order to coerce their own citizens into a transition that no one is even close to be able to successfully accomplish.

@Factfinder

The article was an op-ed. Opinion.

I read your link and video. Obama did not actively manipulate the economy. The video where Obama was touting The Green New Deal was discussing America´s goal of weaning from coal and fossil fuels to green energy. Obama said it will likely cause oil companies to raise prices on Americans. The oil companies would necessarily raise prices to Americans. Of course oil companies, that saw the handwriting on the wall, would raise prices on Americans; they are profit driven.  The Green New Deal does in fact have Americans´ best interests at hand. Will reasonable  independence from fossil fuels happen overnight? Let´s be reasonable. There will be lots of growing pains. 

https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/news/calculating-cost-weather-and-climate-disasters

Will the less advantaged pay a higher price? Of course they will. This has and will never change, The poor always pays the most as it has the most to lose. But Fox and other right wing media want you to believe its the liberals and the dems who are hurting the poor?  This is not an evil plot for Obama and Biden to F over Americans. Not everything is nefarious as 45 and extreme media outlets push continually. Our climate and its weather disasters are getting scarily unstable and unsustainable. We experienced 18 weather disasters last year costing America $165 billion to clean up and the deaths of 474 people. The total costs for the last five years ($764.9 billion) is greater than 1/3 of the disaster costs totaling of the last 42 years (1980-2021). And it is getting worse. To continue on the same course using coal and fossil fuels is reckless, short sighted and disregarding future generations. We simply cannot keep kicking the can down the road. We´ve known about global warming for decades, but because of the costs to mitigate the problem, congress´ avoidance and denial, citizen complacency -  nothing has been done. Does it make sense to continue cleaning up after these weekly climate catastrophes - spending billions yearly? This is penny wise and pound foolish. To continue denying that fossil fuels are in fact causing global warming is only hurting the little guys the most - average American citizens. You think the politicians who get hefty donations from big oil corporations aren´t operating at quid pro quo level? You scratch my back (rich corps. donate $ for my reelection) I will continue being loyal to you and never speaking out against you. You think right wing media is not getting hefty donations from these oil companies and aren´t acting at quid pro quo level? Oil companies give Fox lots of $ and Fox news will continue sticking up for you, claiming everything is a hoax. Well you keep thinking that. What you are essentially doing though is pitting American citizens against American citizens. Is the green energy bill lofty? Yes. But you ask any informed millennial and GenZer about global warming. IT IS extremely important to them. Will there be growing pains? Yes. Will it be flawless? No. But it needs to be addressed now. If you doubt that big oil is not profiteering off of unsuspecting Americans - EXXON, ConocoPhillips, Shell, Chevron, I suggest you read the link below.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/exxon-chevron-shell-conocophillips-record-profits-earnings-oil-companies-most-profitable-year/ 

What I´ve noticed considerably on this site is the distinct division of our two parties. We are both extreme in our views. The left tends to over identify with those less fortunate and injustice ad nauseam. The right tends to scapegoat these very same people while completely disregarding the obvious villains - the extreme wealthy, the wealthy corporations at the top who´ve enjoyed hefty profits for generations. They are actually running the show. Free market capitalism is good but Free market capitalism that exploits its citizens is capitalism gone too far. This is what right-wing news does not tell its viewers. They continue making huge profits off their viewers as they incite them, anger them, seemingly empowering them - and pit them against their own - other Americans.  So no - it is not right to blame the presidency for manipulating the economy to hurt Americans. It IS right however, to recognize and place blame on wealthy oil companies, and all greedy corporations who just cannot get enough profit. It is right to recognize the role that extremist news sites play in using their trusted bully pulpits to spread hate, anger, lies and mis, disinformation and conspiracy theories (socialistic indoctrination)  .... profit over people is winning and ruling America.

Factfinder

@Openminded

Op-ed pieces often time have facts and well reasoned logical opinions based on the facts. Which is more beneficial for truth seekers than the majority of main stream media outlets. But in the end there is always some bias no matter the source. That's why it's important to apply critical thinking and discernment to everything you hear, not just that, that you disagree with. What that link told you was a background on the plan that had been in place since Obama, you know, who had biden as his vp? The guy who said he would "end fossil fuels" and subsequently pulled the rug out of multiple projects American companies had invested millions and millions in?  Well, biden thought since russia wasn't going to supply the west with fuel anymore now (2021 or abouts?) was time to unleash elements of the green new deal plan. Elements he (maybe only his handlers) knew would be terrible for most. Which is now backfiring. So you see, you did see where biden was manipulating after all, you just didn't recognize it! Oh, and obama was no better. He just knew it wasn't the right time to inflict that kind of economic hardship on working americans. His affordable healthcare tax on the working poor who didn't want it, already had burden the country enough.

Openminded

Argument Topic: The idea that increase of the minimum wage leads to decrease in demand of labor and, therefore, increase of the cost-to-compensation ratio is not "Fox", but one of the most basic facts of economics.

@MayCaesar

Yes, this is basic economic principle albeit a very basic piece of the puzzle. There are also economists that say the relationship between minimum wage and employment is more complex than that. They factor in things like an increase in consumer spending (inflation is down) and lower turnover costs (satisfied employees) which tend to offset the negative effects of raising the minimum wage. But right wing media tends to tout only the negative and only what keeps their benefactors´ $ donations. Since Covid, workers have had leverage over corporations. Covid enabled workers to work from home. This meant less costs in many areas: gas, time and especially child care. Workers finally had the advantage over corporations. This has empowered many to make different choices for themselves and their families. This has also in turn put many corporations in uneasy positions and labor shortages are one of them. Bottom line - they just cannot stand to lose one penny of their profit. But to blame this on the libs, the elites, the leftists, the immigrants, the unfortunate is simply short sighted. 

Now, there are two ways to come at this. Should we assume that the wealthy corporation is more important than the average American citizen? Should we have empathy for the wealthy corporations for being forced to raise the minimum wage? Should we blame the left and even assert that the left is deliberately hurting the poor? 

Letś explore another piece. Profit over People or Profit and People shall we?

McDonald's annual/quarterly gross profit history and growth rate from 2020 to 2023 - post covid. Gross profit can be defined as the profit a company makes after deducting the variable costs directly associated with making and selling its products or providing its services.

• McDonald's gross profit for the quarter ending September 30, 2023 was $3.864B, a 12.12% increase year-over-year.
• McDonald's gross profit for the twelve months ending September 30, 2023 was $14.317B, a 9.63% increase year-over-year.
• McDonald's annual gross profit for 2022 was $13.207B, a 4.98% increase from 2021.
• McDonald's annual gross profit for 2021 was $12.58B, a 29% increase from 2020.
• McDonald's annual gross profit for 2020 was $9.752B, a 12.77% decline from 2019.

https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/MCD/mcdonalds/gross-profit

You can see that surely McDonalds does not in fact need to raise their prices that hurt Americans and the poor. You can see that their profit is healthy. You can see that they can afford to pay their employees even more money. What we are seeing in America is greed. What we are seeing is free market capitalism gone wrong. But let´s stop demonizing the poor, the unfortunate and American citizens.

I believe that FOX and other right wing media has propagated so much fear and suspicion to its viewers. Where we should be suspicious of wealthy corporations profiteering off Americans, we are now being pitted against each other. Extreme views proselytize that our problems are because of: the leftists, the libs, the poor, the lazy, the blacks, the gays, the transgenders, the immigrants, the dems --- everything but the wealthy and the greedy at the top. I believe that millions of Americans have been spoon fed B_S for decades - unverified information, racism, scapegoating the unfortunate, lies, conspiracy theories. Anything that brings in more viewers = more $. Seems that extreme news watchers love sensationalism, entertainment, anger, empowerment, theatrics, bombastic bullying, and chaos. Ya´ll gotta stop watching this SH___T. THIS is what´s poisoning America - not the immigrants.

Factfinder

@Openminded

You are debating individuals who think about their opinions. References to fox news and what you think are talking points that the right gets from fox or any other news source are demonstrative of having nothing to add, or you want to engage in tit for tat pettiness. I don't  either one in your case right now. You've just learned bad debating decorum. Please respond to my post at 8:35 a.m.  It addresses your Mcdonalds concerns. Remember, objectivity is used when seeking truths or truisms. I debate because I want to know other peoples opinions on things, not talking points. Greed is not the issue. How does a business benefit society is the issue in discussing the economy. No one denies greedy people exist in all walks of life, including corporate, government and on the streets. But that's not the debate.

MayCaesar

Openminded said:

@MayCaesar

Yes, this is basic economic principle albeit a very basic piece of the puzzle. There are also economists that say the relationship between minimum wage and employment is more complex than that. They factor in things like an increase in consumer spending (inflation is down) and lower turnover costs (satisfied employees) which tend to offset the negative effects of raising the minimum wage. But right wing media tends to tout only the negative and only what keeps their benefactors´ $ donations. Since Covid, workers have had leverage over corporations. Covid enabled workers to work from home. This meant less costs in many areas: gas, time and especially child care. Workers finally had the advantage over corporations. This has empowered many to make different choices for themselves and their families. This has also in turn put many corporations in uneasy positions and labor shortages are one of them. Bottom line - they just cannot stand to lose one penny of their profit. But to blame this on the libs, the elites, the leftists, the immigrants, the unfortunate is simply short sighted. 

Now, there are two ways to come at this. Should we assume that the wealthy corporation is more important than the average American citizen? Should we have empathy for the wealthy corporations for being forced to raise the minimum wage? Should we blame the left and even assert that the left is deliberately hurting the poor? 

Letś explore another piece. Profit over People or Profit and People shall we?

McDonald's annual/quarterly gross profit history and growth rate from 2020 to 2023 - post covid. Gross profit can be defined as the profit a company makes after deducting the variable costs directly associated with making and selling its products or providing its services.

• McDonald's gross profit for the quarter ending September 30, 2023 was $3.864B, a 12.12% increase year-over-year.
• McDonald's gross profit for the twelve months ending September 30, 2023 was $14.317B, a 9.63% increase year-over-year.
• McDonald's annual gross profit for 2022 was $13.207B, a 4.98% increase from 2021.
• McDonald's annual gross profit for 2021 was $12.58B, a 29% increase from 2020.
• McDonald's annual gross profit for 2020 was $9.752B, a 12.77% decline from 2019.

https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/MCD/mcdonalds/gross-profit

You can see that surely McDonalds does not in fact need to raise their prices that hurt Americans and the poor. You can see that their profit is healthy. You can see that they can afford to pay their employees even more money. What we are seeing in America is greed. What we are seeing is free market capitalism gone wrong. But let´s stop demonizing the poor, the unfortunate and American citizens.

I believe that FOX and other right wing media has propagated so much fear and suspicion to its viewers. Where we should be suspicious of wealthy corporations profiteering off Americans, we are now being pitted against each other. Extreme views proselytize that our problems are because of: the leftists, the libs, the poor, the lazy, the blacks, the gays, the transgenders, the immigrants, the dems --- everything but the wealthy and the greedy at the top. I believe that millions of Americans have been spoon fed B_S for decades - unverified information, racism, scapegoating the unfortunate, lies, conspiracy theories. Anything that brings in more viewers = more $. Seems that extreme news watchers love sensationalism, entertainment, anger, empowerment, theatrics, bombastic bullying, and chaos. Ya´ll gotta stop watching this SH___T. THIS is what´s poisoning America - not the immigrants.

The relationship, indeed, is complex, but it has nothing to do with "increase in consumer spending" and other shamanic things. The idea that it is possible to somehow alter the value of money and subsequently make consumers behave more favorably to the economy is based on complete misunderstanding of what money is - it is like switching from measuring your height in inches to measuring it in centimeters and claiming that you have become taller. It has to do with things like errors in market pricing of assets, complexity of governmental regulations, international currency exchange mechanisms, et cetera.

In economics, there is the concept of "wedging" describing the difference between the market value of the asset and its actual value caused by external factors making independent exchange impossible. When the government prices labor of a certain kind above its market value (and its market value is not a result of whims of evil greedy capitalists, but very specific, if you will, mathematical calculations done regardless of anyone's personal desires), the wedge results in sharp decrease of its demand. It can not lead to "satisfied employees". Nobody is going to be satisfied as a result of decrease in demand of their services. Just like you are not going to be satisfied if tomorrow half of your friends decide that befriending you is too much trouble and tell you to shove off.

The whole framing of the market as the class struggle (to use Marx' terminology), where workers are "against" corporations, is a fantasy. In reality, this is a large marketplace in which interests of individuals both collide and align. McDonalds is neither your enemy nor your friend; it is an organization that offers something to you and expects something in exchange. You seeing as it "exploiting" its workers, or unfairly raising its prices, is yet another example of your ignorance of basic economics. Everyone always sells their product for however much they can get for it, and you are no different: if you get an offer for a higher salary tomorrow for the same work, you will take it.

If you understand and accept a very basic concept - that labor is just another product, not some sort of a slavery arrangement - then all this becomes very obvious. But understanding and accepting it requires a bit of independent and hard thinking, and maybe some basic economical education, as I mentioned earlier. You do not have it, for your reasoning is like in the Golden Antelope cartoon: "evil rich exploiters" and "unfortunate mistreated poor". What a sad, misanthropic and illogical way of seeing the world.

Lastly, "right wing media" absolutely spread economical misinformation, just like "left wing media" do. Their arguments, however, are still much more sophisticated. It is like the difference between the Soviet socialists, and the modern Western socialists: the former actually had complex theories that could not be that easily debunked - the latter are just bored kids with green hair and piercings, ignorant about everything.

MayCaesar

And I also want to add one last piece, an icing on the cake: the idea that McDonalds' prices "hurt Americans and the poor" would make for a great comedy line. I have never thought of fast food as essential for someone's survival. This might say something about the people pushing this kind of ideas: they do tend to be much more unhealthy and overweight than average of the whole population.

Barnardot

@MayCaesar ;they do tend to be much more unhealthy and overweight than average of the whole population.

Well it just goes to show that you get what you pay for If you pay cheap then you get cheap. If you pay nothing you get nothing.

Factfinder

jack said:

just_sayin said:

Artificially increasing salaries by hiking the minimum wage has unintended consequences.  Companies don't cut their own profits when this happens, they pass those costs on.

Hello j:

I was in the restaurant business for 30 years..  What I noticed, is that EVERYTHING went up, all the time.  Rent, gas, taxes, food, paper; in short, EVERYTHING, went up including wages..  That's the way that worked.  

Yes, of course I passed those costs on to my customers.  That's how that works.  Some of my customers didn't want to pay more, and didn't have to.  If there were lots of them, my business would have failed.  But, my customers liked what I did, and willingly paid more..  And, that's how that works.

To blame rising costs on employees is, first off, not true, and secondly it's shortsighted..  Your employees have to love producing for you.  If yours do, you survive..  If they don't, you crash..  That's how that works.

excon

Your anecdotal experience aside @Jack, research tells a different story. Happy your privileged life shielded you from the horrible realities that your favorite policies inflict on others though. Oh, did I mention how empathetic socialists are lately? (Not) 

Factfinder

jack said:

Not fox Jack: https://www.aei.org/op-eds/as-democrats-debate-high-gas-prices-buy-a-tesla-remains-their-default-policy-even-for-the-poor/

Hello factmachine, or nom:

Ohhh, right...  It's that bastion of left wingerism, the Washington Examiner..

Du*de....  Bwa, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha..

excon

And yet you offered no defense for the element of truth, the fact democrats were more concerned with telling the poor to buy teslas than admitting intentionally causing inflation was a mistake. 

just_sayin

Argument Topic: more evidence that California's minimum wage law cost minimum wage workers their jobs

Fast food workers are losing their jobs in California as new minimum wage law takes effect

California Restaurants Cut Jobs as Fast-Food Wages Set to Rise

Predictably as California's new minimum wage increase is about to take effect - thousands of jobs are being lost and wages and benefits are being cut.  Who could have predicted this?  Answer:  Anyone who understands basic economics.