The problem is not religion (never was); it's faith!

MayCaesar

I think that religion, too, is a problem. You mentioned that it "can foster community, offer moral guidance, and contribute to individual identity". It certainly can. The question, however, is what the quality of the resulting community, moral system and individual identity is. Is it okay for these to be grounded in, essentially, a bunch of fantasy stories - or is it better for them to be based on a more solid, tangible foundation?

Something that I learned very early in life, probably around the age of 4 or 5, is that group associations have the tendency of swallowing the individual. You join a group of kids playing in the yard, befriend them, form a small gang - and then the necessity of conforming with that gang starts erasing you, molding you into a shape that is alien to your biology and psychology, but that serves the interest of the gang. The gang becomes the driving force, and the individuals its vessels. Same goes for associations by race, by gender, by nationality, by sexuality, by political affiliation, by religion - very different individuals with very different goals deciding to showcase a relatively unimportant part of themselves and let that part drive their overall personal development.

Not all group associations do, however. Those that have a solid foundation in the interest of all individuals involved - economical cooperatives (such as corporations with shareholders, employees and customers), friendships (based on commonality of interests and values), family (based on shared experiences) - can actually empower and enhance the individual, who can through synergy with other compatible individuals fully realize his potential and multiply his productivity.

It seems to me that fully free and actualized individuals have personal ideologies, moral systems, world views. A free individual will not call himself a "stoic" (although he may sympathize with some of the stoic ideas), or a "Muslims" (although he may find some of the Quran passages appealing), or a "Republican" (although he may preferentially support Republican politicians). A free individual will see what is on the offer, take the best from everything and adapt it to his needs. And a society of individuals doing so and respecting the diversity of personal choices is a society free from collectivistic assimilation.

I would like people to be more daring in promoting their own ideas, rather than copying other ideas; pursuing their own goals and dreams, rather than conforming with the goals and dreams the society cultivates in them. Few things can make me respect someone more than hearing, "Everyone told me that X was not going to work, but I went for it and made it work". That is the ultimate triumph of human spirit.

Religion is one of the most damaging forces in that regard. Not only does it, like other organized ideological entities, destroy the individual - but it also develops in him a very twisted mode of thinking, one grounded in arbitrary stories from the past. The individual stops being guided by the real world observations and starts relying on stories and myths that cannot be verified or applied properly in the modern context.
I believe that religion has no place in a truly civilized, futuristic society. It is a relic of the old days when knowledge of the world was scarce and survival of the individual unlikely - back then religion was, perhaps, a necessary cop-out, a way for the individual to avoid losing his mind in the face of such overwhelming uncertainty. In the 21st century, then virtually all knowledge accumulated by humankind over the past few centuries, is within a couple of mouse clicks, religion should have no role other than that of a historical curiosity. The place of the Bible or Quran is in a museum, not on a table of a modern New-Yorker.

ZeusAres42

@MayCaesar

I also agree that religion can be problematic, but the point I'm trying to make is that it's not the core issue. Religion is the construct built upon the faulty foundational epistemology of faith.

Target faith, and then all religions fall simultaneously!

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ;

Faith in religious nonsense laid the ground work for all the atrocities @ZeusAres42 listed. And you know it ricky. You know your god is evil, you believe it might not be. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ;

Faith in religious nonsense laid the ground work for all the atrocities @ZeusAres42 listed. And you know it ricky. You know your god is evil, you believe it might not be. 

@Factfinder ; It is faith that moves the heart of Elohim...without faith, you cannot enter into covenant with our Creator.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ; What "faith" did these have that led to such atrocities?

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ; What "faith" did these have that led to such atrocities?

Hitler was a christian and you know it. Right up your alley. You also know all the theists and atheists alike in your meme adopted the exact power structure and hierarchy as your communistic god fairy elf from your little myth book. Like your friend putin mimics Elohim when he says submit or else. You know these facts. Why lie to yourself?

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ; What "faith" did these have that led to such atrocities?

Hitler was a christian and you know it. Right up your alley. You also know all the theists and atheists alike in your meme adopted the exact power structure and hierarchy as your communistic god fairy elf from your little myth book. Like your friend putin mimics Elohim when he says submit or else. You know these facts. Why lie to yourself?

@Factfinder ;  Hitler was NOT a Christian....Hitler hated Christianity and Catholicism...Hitler served the very same god as you, Satan.

“In Hitler’s eyes Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves,” wrote Alan Bullock “Hitler, A Study in Tyranny,” a seminal biography. “Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle of the fittest.”

“During middle school,” Redlich wrote in “Hitler: Diagnosis of a Destructive Prophet,” the young pupil “made the life of his teacher of religion, Father Salo Schwarz, miserable” by adhering “to his father’s view that religion was for the and old women.”

“I had a particular liking for the delicate subjects in the Bible,” he said, “and I took a naughty pleasure in asking embarrassing questions.”

Though Hitler was impressed and inspired by the hierarchical structure of the Catholic Church, he grew to view its spiritual teachings, Redlich wrote, with an “impotent rage” because of the church’s “formidable power, which he was unable to replace by what he called science and reason.”

Bullock, in describing Hitler as a “rationalist and materialist,” quotes him in a wartime conversation with aides as saying:

The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science ... Gradually the myths crumble. All that is left to prove that nature there is no frontier between the organic and inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light, but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.

By 1942, Hitler vowed, according to Bullock, to “root out and destroy the influence of the Christian Churches,” describing them as “the evil that is gnawing our vitals.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/04/20/hitler-hated-judaism-he-loathed-christianity-too/

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

Factfinder said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ; What "faith" did these have that led to such atrocities?

Hitler was a christian and you know it. Right up your alley. You also know all the theists and atheists alike in your meme adopted the exact power structure and hierarchy as your communistic god fairy elf from your little myth book. Like your friend putin mimics Elohim when he says submit or else. You know these facts. Why lie to yourself?

@Factfinder ;  Hitler was NOT a Christian....Hitler hated Christianity and Catholicism...Hitler served the very same god as you, Satan.

“In Hitler’s eyes Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves,” wrote Alan Bullock “Hitler, A Study in Tyranny,” a seminal biography. “Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle of the fittest.”

“During middle school,” Redlich wrote in “Hitler: Diagnosis of a Destructive Prophet,” the young pupil “made the life of his teacher of religion, Father Salo Schwarz, miserable” by adhering “to his father’s view that religion was for the and old women.”

“I had a particular liking for the delicate subjects in the Bible,” he said, “and I took a naughty pleasure in asking embarrassing questions.”

Though Hitler was impressed and inspired by the hierarchical structure of the Catholic Church, he grew to view its spiritual teachings, Redlich wrote, with an “impotent rage” because of the church’s “formidable power, which he was unable to replace by what he called science and reason.”

Bullock, in describing Hitler as a “rationalist and materialist,” quotes him in a wartime conversation with aides as saying:

The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science ... Gradually the myths crumble. All that is left to prove that nature there is no frontier between the organic and inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light, but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.

By 1942, Hitler vowed, according to Bullock, to “root out and destroy the influence of the Christian Churches,” describing them as “the evil that is gnawing our vitals.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/04/20/hitler-hated-judaism-he-loathed-christianity-too/

Now you know those sites lie because I proved for a fact Hitler was christian. 

Perhaps the most telling Hitler quote of all shows that not only did he believe in God, he believed his racial purity laws would protect God’s creation from spoliation by interbreeding. From Mein Kampf (vol. 2, chapter 2):

[H]undreds and hundreds of thousands of people voluntarily submit to celibacy, obligated and bound by nothing except the injunction of the Church. Should the same renunciation not be possible if this injunction is replaced by the admonition finally to put an end to the constant and continuous original sin of racial poisoning, and to give the Almighty Creator beings such as He Himself created?

After the Enabling Act of 1933 delivered dictatorial powers to Hitler, one of his first actions was to outlaw atheist and freethinking groups. His public speech, after the fact, boasted that, “we have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.”

In short, there is overwhelming evidence that Hitler saw himself as a Christian doing God’s work (even if his own church often opposed him), and that he saw atheism as one of many insults to the German nation requiring ruthless suppression. https://inference-review.com/letter/hitlers-christianity

Hitler himself states vehemently he was christian doing gods work. Used the same justification you do, the bible. I believe him and the evidence over you and lying apologists. You have no excuse to believe your evil elf but blind ignorant faith. You can't deny it and remain honest with yourself. I know...so do you

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Congratulations On Using A Chatbot

@ZeusAres42
Now I'm not the only one.

MayCaesar

ZeusAres42 said:

@MayCaesar

I also agree that religion can be problematic, but the point I'm trying to make is that it's not the core issue. Religion is the construct built upon the faulty foundational epistemology of faith.

Target faith, and then all religions fall simultaneously!

I think that faith of certain kinds can be quite handy. Unprovable beliefs such as "All humans are fundamentally good" have the right to exist and can properly orient one's actions in this world, and one could call them statements of faith.

To me it is more important where the source of these beliefs is. Is this something the individual came to on their own, as a consequence of their personal search for truth and happiness - or is this something they adopted from the collective they associate with? If it is the latter, then it is always problematic, regardless of what the belief is. Even the most benevolent belief adopted as a consequence of peer pressure can have disastrous consequences in one's life: not living in tune with oneself is like walking through life wearing a VR headset.

Factfinder

MayCaesar said:

ZeusAres42 said:

@MayCaesar

I also agree that religion can be problematic, but the point I'm trying to make is that it's not the core issue. Religion is the construct built upon the faulty foundational epistemology of faith.

Target faith, and then all religions fall simultaneously!

I think that faith of certain kinds can be quite handy. Unprovable beliefs such as "All humans are fundamentally good" have the right to exist and can properly orient one's actions in this world, and one could call them statements of faith.

To me it is more important where the source of these beliefs is. Is this something the individual came to on their own, as a consequence of their personal search for truth and happiness - or is this something they adopted from the collective they associate with? If it is the latter, then it is always problematic, regardless of what the belief is. Even the most benevolent belief adopted as a consequence of peer pressure can have disastrous consequences in one's life: not living in tune with oneself is like walking through life wearing a VR headset.

I don't know. What's 'good' and 'properly orientated' can be very subjective. Faith lacking the discipline of continuous questioning and logical foundational supports is a pandoras box of sorts. All humans are not good. If it's asserted they are then one would really has to question what concept of goodness is being utilized. 

I totally agree with your second paragraph.

MayCaesar

@Factfinder

I see humans as fundamentally good, in the sense that, in the lack of negative external influences, I believe that no one would want to commit any heinous acts (as in acts severely and intentionally harming other people). In the strict logical sense it is a non-sequitur since the lack of negative external influences is impossible to assure - however, this is my running assumption that allows me to have compassion for everyone and believe that everyone can ultimately find peace and redeem themselves. I often suggest this metaphor of humans being wanderers, walking along the road and frequently deviating from the course and getting deep into the woods full of monsters tempting them to do bad things, but ultimately finding their way back and resuming walking, stronger and nobler than ever before.

I do not see anything wrong with such an outlook, as long as one understands its limitations. I would question, however, someone's willingness to adopt it without fully thinking it through just because I made a couple of compelling arguments for it. Everyone should do deep inner work regularly and refine their views, and never accept something without properly filtering it through multiple angles of questioning.

And, of course, there is a difference between holding this outlook as a metaphor, as a contribution to one's moral compass - and taking it literally and advocating real world policy-making based off it.

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

Yes. Like in a sense when people commit a horridness act, then later can't believe they did such a thing. 

JulesKorngold

Argument Topic: Fundamentally Good?

@MayCaesar
From an evolutionary standpoint, competition and survival of the fittest are the driving forces behind human behavior, leading to self-serving and sometimes harmful actions.

ZeusAres42

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

Factfinder said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ;

Faith in religious nonsense laid the ground work for all the atrocities @ZeusAres42 listed. And you know it ricky. You know your god is evil, you believe it might not be. 

@Factfinder ; It is faith that moves the heart of Elohim...without faith, you cannot enter into covenant with our Creator.

Why do you need faith when you previously said your beliefs are based on evidence? You have also done a great job now at demonstrating that your beliefs are not based on evidence. 

I also want you to know that I am not angry or frustrated with you. In fact I am saddened that you have succumbed to this faulty satanic evil God of faith. I think behind the computer screen you are at heart a decent person, that just wants to do well. 

This is a debate site and I guess I did (although I did think this might not be the best place to do that) was to see if you were willing to question the reliability of your faith based beliefs.

Maybe it's just not the place to do this and perhaps in other settings you might be more susceptible to doxastic openness. I really hope that is the case and I really hope one day you are able open your yourself up to the gift of reason. And be cured of the faith virus once and for all.

At this point I guess that's not much else I can do except just feel empathy and compassion for you. 


@RickeyHoltsclaw

RickeyHoltsclaw

ZeusAres42 said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

Factfinder said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ;

Faith in religious nonsense laid the ground work for all the atrocities @ZeusAres42 listed. And you know it ricky. You know your god is evil, you believe it might not be. 

@Factfinder ; It is faith that moves the heart of Elohim...without faith, you cannot enter into covenant with our Creator.

Why do you need faith when you previously said your beliefs are based on evidence? You have also done a great job now at demonstrating that your beliefs are not based on evidence. 

I also want you to know that I am not angry or frustrated with you. In fact I am saddened that you have succumbed to this faulty satanic evil God of faith. I think behind the computer screen you are at heart a decent person, that just wants to do well. 

This is a debate site and I guess I did (although I did think this might not be the best place to do that) was to see if you were willing to question the reliability of your faith based beliefs.

Maybe it's just not the place to do this and perhaps in other settings you might be more susceptible to doxastic openness. I really hope that is the case and I really hope one day you are able open your yourself up to the gift of reason. And be cured of the faith virus once and for all.

At this point I guess that's not much else I can do except just feel empathy and compassion for you. 


@RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ; 

1) It is evidence that bolsters my faith as I see the World around me that under girds my faith in Elohim as a divine, sovereign, omnipotent, Creator...just as He is presented in the Canon of Scripture. My faith is not "blind" but based upon logic and reason and experiential relevance.

2) I too am saddened by the fact that you're headed to death in Hell in unbelief and the Evil One continues to control and persuade your choices in life in unbelief (2 Corinthians 4:4). This is eternally tragic.

3) My faith is beyond question...it is settled, was settled over three-decades ago...I know in Whom I trust and why.

4) I am as "open" and receptive here I can possible be anywhere else.

5) Thank you for your empathy.

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

It is faith in convincing yourself there is evidence pointing to your myth where there is none.

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

It is faith in convincing yourself there is evidence pointing to your myth where there is none.

@Factfinder ; @ZeusAres42 ; It is Nature that points me to my divine Creator and it's the written word that bolsters my faith in what I perceive with my senses and it is Jesus that confirms these things through His ministry and it is the indwelling Holy Spirit who is my assurance of all that experiential relevance provides me, daily.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

Factfinder said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

It is faith in convincing yourself there is evidence pointing to your myth where there is none.

@Factfinder ; @ZeusAres42 ; It is Nature that points me to my divine Creator and it's the written word that bolsters my faith in what I perceive with my senses and it is Jesus that confirms these things through His ministry and it is the indwelling Holy Spirit who is my assurance of all that experiential relevance provides me, daily.

Yes, blind, thoughtless faith. We get it.

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

Factfinder said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

It is faith in convincing yourself there is evidence pointing to your myth where there is none.

@Factfinder ; @ZeusAres42 ; It is Nature that points me to my divine Creator and it's the written word that bolsters my faith in what I perceive with my senses and it is Jesus that confirms these things through His ministry and it is the indwelling Holy Spirit who is my assurance of all that experiential relevance provides me, daily.

Yes, blind, thoughtless faith. We get it.

@Factfinder ;  If my faith were blind and thoughtless, I'd be an atheist headed to Hell in unbelief.

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

 If my faith were blind and thoughtless, I'd be an atheist headed to Hell in unbelief.

Remarkable how the delusional post contradictory statements with such consistency, ricky.

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

 If my faith were blind and thoughtless, I'd be an atheist headed to Hell in unbelief.

Remarkable how the delusional post contradictory statements with such consistency, ricky.

@Factfinder ; It's only "delusional" and "contradictory" to those who are dead spiritually.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

Factfinder said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

 If my faith were blind and thoughtless, I'd be an atheist headed to Hell in unbelief.

Remarkable how the delusional post contradictory statements with such consistency, ricky.

@Factfinder ; It's only "delusional" and "contradictory" to those who are dead spiritually.

Keeping in mind quoting the bible is meaningless, you said, " If my faith were blind and thoughtless, I'd be an atheist headed to Hell in unbelief.

Your blind and thoughtless faith excludes atheism and unbelief. Your delusional faith leads you to self contradicting remarks like the above, all the time. And you know it. But it does reveal a secret, unspeakable yearning you have, to be atheist. And you know it.

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

Factfinder said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

 If my faith were blind and thoughtless, I'd be an atheist headed to Hell in unbelief.

Remarkable how the delusional post contradictory statements with such consistency, ricky.

@Factfinder ; It's only "delusional" and "contradictory" to those who are dead spiritually.

Keeping in mind quoting the bible is meaningless, you said, " If my faith were blind and thoughtless, I'd be an atheist headed to Hell in unbelief.

Your blind and thoughtless faith excludes atheism and unbelief. Your delusional faith leads you to self contradicting remarks like the above, all the time. And you know it. But it does reveal a secret, unspeakable yearning you have, to be atheist. And you know it.

@Factfinder ; My remarks are not contradictory except to the atheist god you serve...why would I choose to serve death and suffering and Hell? Really Factfinder...that the best you can do?

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

Factfinder said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

 If my faith were blind and thoughtless, I'd be an atheist headed to Hell in unbelief.

Remarkable how the delusional post contradictory statements with such consistency, ricky.

@Factfinder ; It's only "delusional" and "contradictory" to those who are dead spiritually.

Keeping in mind quoting the bible is meaningless, you said, " If my faith were blind and thoughtless, I'd be an atheist headed to Hell in unbelief.

Your blind and thoughtless faith excludes atheism and unbelief. Your delusional faith leads you to self contradicting remarks like the above, all the time. And you know it. But it does reveal a secret, unspeakable yearning you have, to be atheist. And you know it.

@Factfinder ;  Repeating yourself now...are you well? Surely you can do better...try harder.

MayCaesar

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ;  If my faith were blind and thoughtless, I'd be an atheist headed to Hell in unbelief.

You are an atheist with respect to ~300 human-made gods. Many hells for you to experience, my friend...

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

Factfinder said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

Factfinder said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

 If my faith were blind and thoughtless, I'd be an atheist headed to Hell in unbelief.

Remarkable how the delusional post contradictory statements with such consistency, ricky.

@Factfinder ; It's only "delusional" and "contradictory" to those who are dead spiritually.

Keeping in mind quoting the bible is meaningless, you said, " If my faith were blind and thoughtless, I'd be an atheist headed to Hell in unbelief.

Your blind and thoughtless faith excludes atheism and unbelief. Your delusional faith leads you to self contradicting remarks like the above, all the time. And you know it. But it does reveal a secret, unspeakable yearning you have, to be atheist. And you know it.

@Factfinder ;  Repeating yourself now...are you well? Surely you can do better...try harder.

LOL, your faith really doesn't tolerate cognitive abilities at all, does it. If you had half a brain you could've brought up what @MayCaesar did. At least you would of demonstrated some intelligence. But no, instead for the third time I'm forced to shove your boneheaded statement back in your face. How does your faith lead to non faith like your self contradictory remark implies?  If my faith were blind and thoughtless, I'd be an atheist headed to Hell in unbelief.

MayCaesar

@Factfinder

That is a very simple question that always stumps religious believers: why they do not believe in a different god. "You believe in the Christian god; why not Allah?" I have never heard a coherent answer that could not be turned upside down and be as good of an advocacy in favor of believing in Allah and disbelieving in the Christian god.

Of course, these are all just fantasy creatures, and to any regular human being believing in "Elohim" makes about as much sense as believing in Frodo Baggins. But take someone through a very traumatic childhood full of angry Christian priests yelling at them about the eternal torture they are going to face - and it is possible to break the person and make them believe in these fantasies unironically. Much like a North Korean seeing public executions of those who are skeptical of the Great Leader's godhood regularly will eventually be broken and choose the less traumatic path: that of uncritical acceptance of the regime's claims.

Religion can be seen as a tree growing from a planted seed of pain. Every deeply religious monotheist is yet another human being with obliterated childhood and broken mind. When you think about them in this way, it is hard not to feel compassion.

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

That's exactly what happens. Faith consistently looks for reinforcement and reassurances. Throw in visions of hell and you dare not question it. 

As far as them being unable to answer in a coherent way to their atheistic out looks on other gods? The very term 'atheist' makes them shiver for one. More importantly though each god comes with its own owner's manual and what's written in those pages tells them they are the one true god. Or doesn't mention any others; but possibly offspring of 'true gods'. All seem to have consequences for failed blind acceptance and compliance to their written word though.

MayCaesar

@Factfinder

I suppose it shows the true nature of those gods - or, to be more precise, the nature of those who created them. Vengeful, insecure people who cannot handle everyone not believing in the same thing they do.

Imagine if the job market was like that: "Here are 2 million companies you can work at. But if you do not work for us, you will burn in hell forever! We are the only true company!" Nothing else in the world works like that. Only monotheistic religions and other totalitarian ideologies, like communism or fascism.

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

That wouldn't be so bad if I owned the one company that had the power of hell LOL 

ZeusAres42

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Also, if you can't see life worth living beyond faith based delusions then I say this with the utmost kindest from the bottom of my heart: please seek professional help. This to me signals a red flag and a cry for help. This is not mockery or satire, or anything derogatory. I am genuinly concerned for you. From where I am coming from right now you need professional medical intervention. 

I am not saying this because I think you are nuts or anything. You did recently say something like that you cannot imagine your life worth living without believing in God. If this is the only thing you see worth living for then you need help. If this is the only thing in your life that you are clinging onto to keep you going through the day everyday then you need help. There is no shame in this either. 

MayCaesar

@ZeusAres42

Sam Harris has an absolutely amazing piece on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO9If_23cfU

Factfinder

@ZeusAres42

Your advice makes sense of course. But that which is logical in this reality makes no sense in the realm of spiritual nonsense. 

ZeusAres42

@MayCaesar

Just watched it. Liked the analogy about Angelina Joli.  

ZeusAres42

@Factfinder

Your advice makes sense of course. But that which is logical in this reality makes no sense in the realm of spiritual nonsense. 

I agree. But when someone says that belief in God and nothing else matters I see a red flag where something psychological is going. The core issue I see here is a person who thinks life without his faith is meaningless and he has nothing to live for if that isn't the case. I don't see a silly person just preaching a load of nonsense now; I see something far deeper. 

Factfinder

ZeusAres42 said:

@Factfinder

Your advice makes sense of course. But that which is logical in this reality makes no sense in the realm of spiritual nonsense. 

I agree. But when someone says that belief in God and nothing else matters I see a red flag where something psychological is going. The core issue I see here is a person who thinks life without his faith is meaningless and he has nothing to live for if that isn't the case. I don't see a silly person just preaching a load of nonsense now; I see something far deeper. 

Could be. But i myself came back from such despair. That should give you hope.

RickeyHoltsclaw

ZeusAres42 said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Also, if you can't see life worth living beyond faith based delusions then I say this with the utmost kindest from the bottom of my heart: please seek professional help. This to me signals a red flag and a cry for help. This is not mockery or satire, or anything derogatory. I am genuinly concerned for you. From where I am coming from right now you need professional medical intervention. 

I am not saying this because I think you are nuts or anything. You did recently say something like that you cannot imagine your life worth living without believing in God. If this is the only thing you see worth living for then you need help. If this is the only thing in your life that you are clinging onto to keep you going through the day everyday then you need help. There is no shame in this either. 

@ZeusAres42 ; @Factfinder ; @MayCaesar ;

The disconnect between what you see as valuable in life and what I perceive as valuable in life does not suggest that my perspective is inferior to your perspective but simply "different." It's rather selfish and arrogant of you to suggest that your worldview is superior to mine simply because you believe in nothing and I believe in something by faith. I don't think you're sufficiently educated in psychology or psychiatry to evaluate my love for Jesus Christ and adoration of the Holy Spirit as requiring "medical intervention."

I have lived this life for 66-years thus far...half lived in the World you know and half in the life offered by Jesus Christ through faith in Him as my Messiah. I choose Jesus and the indwelling Holy Spirit via experiential relevance. Simply because you don't understand this as you've never experienced it does NOT provide you the right to insult my faith or suggest I am somehow inferior to you or your nihilistic worldview.

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

Factfinder said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

Factfinder said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

 If my faith were blind and thoughtless, I'd be an atheist headed to Hell in unbelief.

Remarkable how the delusional post contradictory statements with such consistency, ricky.

@Factfinder ; It's only "delusional" and "contradictory" to those who are dead spiritually.

Keeping in mind quoting the bible is meaningless, you said, " If my faith were blind and thoughtless, I'd be an atheist headed to Hell in unbelief.

Your blind and thoughtless faith excludes atheism and unbelief. Your delusional faith leads you to self contradicting remarks like the above, all the time. And you know it. But it does reveal a secret, unspeakable yearning you have, to be atheist. And you know it.

@Factfinder ;  Repeating yourself now...are you well? Surely you can do better...try harder.

LOL, your faith really doesn't tolerate cognitive abilities at all, does it. If you had half a brain you could've brought up what @MayCaesar did. At least you would of demonstrated some intelligence. But no, instead for the third time I'm forced to shove your boneheaded statement back in your face. How does your faith lead to non faith like your self contradictory remark implies?  If my faith were blind and thoughtless, I'd be an atheist headed to Hell in unbelief.

@Factfinder ; @MayCaesar ; @ZeusAres42 If my faith was placed in nihilism...I'd be exactly what you are...a worthless atheist existing in Time headed to death in Hell having provided nothing of relevance or sustainability for the eternal welfare of others...this is the life of the atheist that you've chosen by your free will.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@ZeusAres42 ; Another interesting tidbit that demonstrates your rant in the OP to be a fallacy is the fact that religion is the antithesis of "faith" as religions teach that man is able to work his self into favor with his particular deity; therefore, faith is NOT an element of religion but works, self righteousness, are the root of all religions. Christianity, theologically speaking, is NOT a "religion."

GiantMan

ZeusAres42 said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

Factfinder said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ;

Faith in religious nonsense laid the ground work for all the atrocities @ZeusAres42 listed. And you know it ricky. You know your god is evil, you believe it might not be. 

@Factfinder ; It is faith that moves the heart of Elohim...without faith, you cannot enter into covenant with our Creator.

Why do you need faith when you previously said your beliefs are based on evidence? You have also done a great job now at demonstrating that your beliefs are not based on evidence. 

I also want you to know that I am not angry or frustrated with you. In fact I am saddened that you have succumbed to this faulty satanic evil God of faith. I think behind the computer screen you are at heart a decent person, that just wants to do well. 

This is a debate site and I guess I did (although I did think this might not be the best place to do that) was to see if you were willing to question the reliability of your faith based beliefs.

Maybe it's just not the place to do this and perhaps in other settings you might be more susceptible to doxastic openness. I really hope that is the case and I really hope one day you are able open your yourself up to the gift of reason. And be cured of the faith virus once and for all.

At this point I guess that's not much else I can do except just feel empathy and compassion for you. 


@RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ; Another interesting tidbit that demonstrates your rant in the OP to be a fallacy is the fact that religion is the antithesis of "faith" as religions teach that man is able to work his self into favor with his particular deity; therefore, faith is NOT an element of religion but works, self righteousness, are the root of all religions. Christianity, theologically speaking, is NOT a "religion."

You're wrong ricky. Your book teaches that the RELIGION of christianity must produce faith that has works in order to gain favor with your diety. And christ referred to followers as 'my church'. No matter how you slice it, your own little book contradicts and betrays you...

James 2:14-26 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Matthew 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ; Another interesting tidbit that demonstrates your rant in the OP to be a fallacy is the fact that religion is the antithesis of "faith" as religions teach that man is able to work his self into favor with his particular deity; therefore, faith is NOT an element of religion but works, self righteousness, are the root of all religions. Christianity, theologically speaking, is NOT a "religion."

You're wrong ricky. Your book teaches that the RELIGION of christianity must produce faith that has works in order to gain favor with your diety. And christ referred to followers as 'my church'. No matter how you slice it, your own little book contradicts and betrays you...

James 2:14-26 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Matthew 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

@Factfinder ; @ZeusAres42 ; @GiantMan

No Factfinder...no one is saved from death in Hell by works (Ephesians 1:13-14; Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:20-21).

James 2:26: “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.” What is James teaching in context?

James prefaces v. 26 with this: “21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

In Genesis 15:6 we are told that Abraham “believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.” It’s important to note that Abraham initiated a covenant of righteousness with the Father long before Abraham’s works were noted by the Father in Genesis 26:5,

4 I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, 5 because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”

What is James teaching here?

James teaches that the one who has honored the Father with true faith in the Son, Jesus, as Messiah will naturally and inevitably produce “fruit” that honors the Father, Son and Spirit during daily sanctification; that is, abiding faith, saving faith, produces good works that validate that faith and confirm it as authentic. Jesus said you would know them by their fruit (Matthew 7:15-20).

James is NOT teaching a works salvation or that works, commandment-keeping somehow supplement or is involved in redemption of the soul by faith in Messiah.

Salvation, forgiveness of sin, a pardon from the “second death” in Hell, is ONLY initiated by repentance and abiding, sincere, authentic, faith in Jesus Christ as Messiah believing that Jesus shed His innocent blood for the atonement of your sin; therefore, there is nothing you can do in and of yourself to initiate covenant with the Father but sincerely trust in the blood and death and resurrection of Messiah Jesus as atonement for your sin, not law-keeping, not water baptism, not philanthropy, not being a good person, not Moses, not Torah, not a Church, but simple and abiding faith in Jesus as the One who died for you. The “fruit” produced through you by the indwelling Holy Spirit during life-long sanctification validates your confession of faith as authentic.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. Galatians 5 (ESV)

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

As I showed you, faith without works is dead. From your own fairy elf book. What do you imagine james means by no works = faith DEAD? Try again.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; @ZeusAres 42  You did not read the response and exegesis concerning James. James is teaching "faith" as a "verb" which follows "faith" as a "noun" in the salvation confession.

No one can work sufficiently, be sufficiently good, to earn their salvation (James 2:10; Ephesians 2:8-9). Elohim demonstrated this for you as early as Genesis 3:21 as He first provided a word-picture of the Gospel as Elohim, Himself, shed innocent blood (Matthew 26:28) and took the skins of animals to clothe Adam and Eve in an imputed-gifted robe of righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21); this, to cover the shame of their nakedness while Elohim simultaneously rejected the works of Adam's hands to cover his own sin with fig-leaves.

This same truism carries over throughout the Gospel...man cannot earn his way into favor or covenant with Elohim (Romans 3:20)....our salvation is a divine gift of GRACE offered through FAITH, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9). A Christian's works only become relevant subsequent salvation by faith as the faith (noun) that saves progresses into a faith (verb) that produces divine fruit (Galatians 5:22-23) and it is that fruit that glorifies the Father (John 15:8) and fulfills all law (Galatians 5:23); this, as Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruit" (Matthew 7:15-20).

If it were possible for humanity to work sufficiently to engender covenant with the Father, Messiah suffered and died needlessly.

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

If it were possible for humanity to work sufficiently to engender covenant with the Father, Messiah suffered and died needlessly. 

Bingo! If your god was what you say it was, it could have just commanded perfection in all ways in all realms of cognitive self awareness and it would be so. But it chose the path of pain and suffering, eternal damnation for not blindly accepting the bizarre and illogical self absorbed demand for worship. And you blindly submit. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

If it were possible for humanity to work sufficiently to engender covenant with the Father, Messiah suffered and died needlessly. 

Bingo! If your god was what you say it was, it could have just commanded perfection in all ways in all realms of cognitive self awareness and it would be so. But it chose the path of pain and suffering, eternal damnation for not blindly accepting the bizarre and illogical self absorbed demand for worship. And you blindly submit. 

@Factfinder ;  Not true...Elohim is Love...He desires intimate relationship with both His angelic and human creation; therefore, free will, volition, are absolutely essential if intimacy and relationship with Elohim are to manifest with purity and authenticity. 

Elohim did not choose a path of suffering and pain and eternal damnation...Satan and mankind chose those paths....Elohim interceded Himself and gave Himself to provide humanity a Path of escape. It's not bizarre and illogical to the one who KNOWS Elohim with intimacy and trust Him completely...Elohim explains Himself and His eschatological purposes with great detail for the one willing and possessing the courage to pursue that Truth. You simply don't know Elohim; therefore, you cannot know His ways.

MayCaesar

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@ZeusAres42 ; @Factfinder ; @MayCaesar ;

The disconnect between what you see as valuable in life and what I perceive as valuable in life does not suggest that my perspective is inferior to your perspective but simply "different." It's rather selfish and arrogant of you to suggest that your worldview is superior to mine simply because you believe in nothing and I believe in something by faith. I don't think you're sufficiently educated in psychology or psychiatry to evaluate my love for Jesus Christ and adoration of the Holy Spirit as requiring "medical intervention."

I have lived this life for 66-years thus far...half lived in the World you know and half in the life offered by Jesus Christ through faith in Him as my Messiah. I choose Jesus and the indwelling Holy Spirit via experiential relevance. Simply because you don't understand this as you've never experienced it does NOT provide you the right to insult my faith or suggest I am somehow inferior to you or your nihilistic worldview.

No offense, but it does not seem at all that your faith has given you happiness and contentment. You attack other people endlessly over things that do not affect your life whatsoever, which suggests that you are a lonely sod full of insecurities who desperately seeks attention and sense of purpose in life.

It is very common for old people to feel lost in life, disconnected from others. They resort to seeking meaning in all kinds of occult things, but those things do not bring them happiness - instead, they only add to frustration. And then the old man will teach younger ones how they should live their life, while himself being a perfect example of how not to live it.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

Factfinder said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

If it were possible for humanity to work sufficiently to engender covenant with the Father, Messiah suffered and died needlessly. 

Bingo! If your god was what you say it was, it could have just commanded perfection in all ways in all realms of cognitive self awareness and it would be so. But it chose the path of pain and suffering, eternal damnation for not blindly accepting the bizarre and illogical self absorbed demand for worship. And you blindly submit. 

@Factfinder ;  Not true...Elohim is Love...He desires intimate relationship with both His angelic and human creation; therefore, free will, volition, are absolutely essential if intimacy and relationship with Elohim are to manifest with purity and authenticity. 

Elohim did not choose a path of suffering and pain and eternal damnation...Satan and mankind chose those paths....Elohim interceded Himself and gave Himself to provide humanity a Path of escape. It's not bizarre and illogical to the one who KNOWS Elohim with intimacy and trust Him completely...Elohim explains Himself and His eschatological purposes with great detail for the one willing and possessing the courage to pursue that Truth. You simply don't know Elohim; therefore, you cannot know His ways.

Sorry. Special pleading doesn't change the fact that your god chose, evil, pain, suffering, eternal damnation as amusing tools for forced compliance. He could have simply had an intimate relationship with whoever it created by instantly instilling everything it takes to be complete in a reciprocated in every since of the word relationship with all creation including the creator.  But it didn't and you blindly worship it. Oh the shame.