jesus and his ideals..

just_sayin

OMG!  SMH. Even a cursory reading of Jesus' sayings shows he was not about making the government bigger and more controlling in people's lives.  He says “You will always have the poor among you, and you can help them whenever you want to. " - Mark 14:7.   If Jesus was into big government control he would have said - we will build a bigger government to help them, but his instructions call for personal action, not government action - 'YOU can help them whenever time YOU wan to"

In Luke 12:13-15, Jesus is approached with a redistribution request. " Then someone called from the crowd, “Teacher, please tell my brother to divide our father’s estate with me.” Jesus replied, “Friend, who made me a judge over you to decide such things as that?”  Then he said, “Beware! Guard against every kind of greed. Life is not measured by how much you own.”

Life is not about equity.  Seems Jesus wasn't into socialism nor critical race theory either.  

In Jesus' parable of the 3 talents.  When one servant buries his coin and doesn't put it to good use, the master takes it from him and gives it to a more productive servant.  That doesn't seem like a socialist message to me.  

Jesus told another parable about workers going out to work in a field.  This one definitely upholds capitalistic virtues rather than socialist ones.  At the end of the day the owner pays the people who worked less the same as those who had worked all day.  When some workers complained it wasn't fair - the owner of the vineyard said 'isn't that what you agreed to work for. "  He essentially defends the right of voluntary contract, private property, and, in effect, the law of supply and demand.

Some socialists mistakenly think Jesus disdained the rich - that is not true.  He disdained greed and envy - whether it originated from the rich or poor.  Socialist often forget that poor people can have a love for money too - its just they don't have a lot of their own money to love.  For him, life was not about possessions, nor power, but about loving God and loving others as you love yourself.

maxx

jesus was for the poor; for feeding the hungry without pay. he did not like government, let alone one where there was no social justice. I am not sure of what bible you use, nor how you interpret parables, but the parable of the two sons has mothing to do with capitalism. The Parable of the Two Sons: Context, Meaning, & Lessons (stillfaith.com)   and he also was into liberal ideas on the poor. Jesus on Wealth Redistribution: What He Said and Didn't Say - Foundation for Economic Education (fee.org)  I really fail to see how right wing christains can interpret jesus's saying as anything but social justice. @just_sayin

just_sayin

maxx said:

jesus was for the poor; for feeding the hungry without pay. he did not like government, let alone one where there was no social justice. I am not sure of what bible you use, nor how you interpret parables, but the parable of the two sons has mothing to do with capitalism. The Parable of the Two Sons: Context, Meaning, & Lessons (stillfaith.com)   and he also was into liberal ideas on the poor. Jesus on Wealth Redistribution: What He Said and Didn't Say - Foundation for Economic Education (fee.org)  I really fail to see how right wing christains can interpret jesus's saying as anything but social justice. @just_sayin

Maxx, you are right.  Jesus was for the poor, but not for big government - which socialism is for.  Jesus would not have fit well with socialism or for some ideas of capitalism.  The kingdom he was focused on was not a governmental system.  The parable of 2 sons, does touch on the issue of equity and redistribution.  Jesus doesn't even make a comment that the brother who was getting the inheritance should share it with the other brother.  That is telling.

Jesus supported helping the poor, but that was through personal action - and through the church, not government.  Jesus supported capitalistic ideas such as meritocracy (3 talent parable), voluntary contract (laborer parable), private property (multiple parables).  I don't see any parables where Jesus said that we should raise taxes or give the government more control of the means of production.  Sometimes when Jesus mentioned government officials in his parables they were corrupt (such as the parable of the persistent widow).  In the parable of the good Samaritan, it is a private citizen who helps the man attacked and gives out of his own pocket to help him - that's the opposite of looking to government to help those in need.  

just_sayin

maxx said:

jesus was for the poor; for feeding the hungry without pay. he did not like government, let alone one where there was no social justice. I am not sure of what bible you use, nor how you interpret parables, but the parable of the two sons has mothing to do with capitalism. The Parable of the Two Sons: Context, Meaning, & Lessons (stillfaith.com)   and he also was into liberal ideas on the poor. Jesus on Wealth Redistribution: What He Said and Didn't Say - Foundation for Economic Education (fee.org)  I really fail to see how right wing christains can interpret jesus's saying as anything but social justice. @just_sayin

I thought it was odd that you would mention Lawrence Reed's Fee organization to defend liberal ideas of wealth redistribution.  I don't think your read the article you sited above.  From the article:

It is notable that Jesus never even hinted that third parties or the state should forcibly redistribute the rich man’s wealth. On the one occasion when Jesus was presented with an opportunity to work an equal distribution of wealth, he quickly declined:

Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the family inheritance with me.” But he said to him, “Friend, who set me to be a judge or arbitrator over you?” And he said to them, “Take care! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of possessions” (Luke 12:13–15).

Jesus did not even suggest a distribution. Instead, he warned against greed while declining to play the busybody.

MayCaesar

I have always said that Christianity, Islam, socialism and fascism are all ideological siblings. The fundamental premise of each is that there is something out there which is more important than you, so you must devote your life to serving it. Whether it be Yahweh, or Allah, or the commune, or the nation, the setup is the same: your life is only valuable for as long as it contributes to some ethereal force - that does not exist in the physical sense, but does exist in the minds of people.

Jesus definitely comes across as a kind of anarcho-communist. I think Muslims got a prophet better matching their modern culture: their prophet outright says that conquest is a manifestation of Allah's will. Christians used to think the same about their god, but over time dissenting voices shattered that interpretation for the most part. They did not shatter the fundamental premise though.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx ; Jesus is fiscal, moral, ultra conservative.

maxx

wow rick, not only did you take Thessalonians 3 10 out of context with the rest of the chapter; in which it changes its entire meaning; this is not even one of jesus's sayings. @RickeyHoltsclaw

RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx ; The entire Bible belongs to Jesus as He is the Living Word....

maxx

most of those ideas and sayings about poor and rich people are parables, meaning that the true riches lie in heaven and not through material goods. Still, he was always helping the poor, the lame, the blind; all those who could not afford food. distribution of wealth in which he highly hints at by telling the rich to share with the poor is much more a liberal idea than a republican one. He also wanted as many as possible to join and follow him so he could spread his teachings; in which sounds more like a commune, or hippy type life in where they would disdain authority and the government. This would at the most put jesus on the far left if anything. It is also a rejection of mainstream life. Jesus rejected consumerism.He rejected the ongoing culture of the time. He strove for peace, the free helping of fellow men. He accepted everyone as the same, be it man, woman, whatever race or creed, the poor, and the lame. It hardly sounds like he was right wing to me. he would definitely not be considered a capitalist due to his disdain of money and rich people.  @just_sayin

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

The entire Bible belongs to Jesus as He is the Living Word....

Including commands to kill babies, commit genocides and everything. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder Jesus is a Warrior...you will find this out soon enough...you have chosen to be His enemy in Time...you will be dealt with the moment to cross over into Eternity.

maxx

you do not even know the actual translation of "word" why don't you look something up once in a while/  you fail completely at understanding your own religious history; you simply  post verse and say this is what they mean. @RickeyHoltsclaw

RickeyHoltsclaw

maxx said:

you do not even know the actual translation of "word" why don't you look something up once in a while/  you fail completely at understanding your own religious history; you simply  post verse and say this is what they mean. @RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx ;  The Word in context is "logos"...Jesus is the Living Word...the fulfillment of Elohim's Law codified in Stone and scratched upon parchment by Moses.

maxx

do you know that  Elohim is plural? which means that god{s} created the heavens and earth. They were polytheistic back then. @RickeyHoltsclaw

RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx @ZeusAres42 ; @Factfinder ; @MayCaesar

Elohim, Genesis 1:1, is the Name selected by the Holy Spirit to introduce our Triune Creator as Father, Son and Spirit. Elohim in Genesis 1:1 is a plural noun with a singular verb. 

The Holy Spirit first introduces Himself in Genesis 1:2. 

In Genesis 1:26-28, we see the collaboration of Father, Son and Spirit as "Us" and "Our" in the unique creation of the human genome which is patterned after the spiritual image of Elohim, Himself; in Genesis 3:15 we see the introduction of the Son who will do battle with Satan and the struggle will be of some consequence as the Son will be bruised (flogged and hung on a cross) and Satan would be crushed, defeated as He was at Golgotha; in fact, this is the primary reason the Son of Elohim entered the Realm of Time, "to destroy the works of the Devil" (1 John 3:8b). 

Immediately subsequent Adam's compromise with evil, Elohim portrays the battle strategy He will employ "to destroy the works of the Devil" via the Gospel, a Gospel ordained "before Time began" (2 Timothy 1:8-10) and the Gospel is pictured first in Genesis 3:21 where Elohim, Himself, sheds innocent blood to acquire a "robe of righteousness" by which Elohim clothes fallen humanity in that robe while rejecting the works of Adam's hands to cover his own shame, sin, with fig-leaves (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 1:18-19; Ephesians 2:8-9; Galatians 2:16). 

In the first-three chapters of The Genesis, Elohim introduces Himself as, 

Father - Administrator

Son - Creator, Warrior, Messiah, Judge

Holy Spirit - Logistics 

maxx

that is simply the translation they put forth today rick; not what they meant back then. Trinity > History of Trinitarian Doctrines (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)  why dont you read your own religious history for petes sake? perhaps if you did, you would understand the bible better, instead of throwing out posters  and out of context random verses. But i suspose thats too much too ask for. @RickeyHoltsclaw

RickeyHoltsclaw

maxx said:

that is simply the translation they put forth today rick; not what they meant back then. Trinity > History of Trinitarian Doctrines (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)  why dont you read your own religious history for petes sake? perhaps if you did, you would understand the bible better, instead of throwing out posters  and out of context random verses. But i suspose thats too much too ask for. @RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx ; @ZeusAres42 ; @Factfinder

My offering to you is as old as Time itself...you know NOTHING about what you question or accuse...you have not studied nor do you possess the precious Holy Spirit...you are a spoiled brat standing outside the classroom with your hear plastered to the door not understanding a thing you hear...what I tell you is infinitely deeper and of more consequence than your unredeemed mind can know or comprehend. You're a spiritually dead man walking without hope in your foolishness of atheism and you possess NO ability to critique what the Holy Spirit has provided. Your cockiness is noted.

 

maxx

i understand the history. i undwerstand how the bibled was compiled, what language, heck there were not even vowels back then, let alone many verbs such as "the". I also know the actual history of how the early church changed many things in the bible to fit the bible differntly. It is history; i am not making this up. The trinity is a jewish concept for petes sake. Ancient hebrew, the language the bible was written in, had no meaning of it. @RickeyHoltsclaw

RickeyHoltsclaw

maxx said:

i understand the history. i undwerstand how the bibled was compiled, what language, heck there were not even vowels back then, let alone many verbs such as "the". I also know the actual history of how the early church changed many things in the bible to fit the bible differntly. It is history; i am not making this up. The trinity is a jewish concept for petes sake. Ancient hebrew, the language the bible was written in, had no meaning of it. @RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx ; @ZeusAres42 ; @Factfinder

Nothing has been changed...the written word has been carefully preserved by the omnipotent Holy Spirit down through the ages though the Bible was ravaged, hated, burned, ostracized, the Holy Spirit has meticulously maintained, preserved, the Word of Elohim so that I can know Him personally; love Him intimately; live with Him eternally. You don't believe this...that is your free will prerogative. I will tell you this, if you deny Jesus as your Messiah for the mediation of your sin before the Father, you will most certainly die in Hell in nihilism in spiritual arrogance and ignorance. At least you have be TOLD!

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Nothing has been changed...the written word has been carefully preserved by the omnipotent Holy Spirit down through the ages though the Bible was ravaged, hated, burned, ostracized, the Holy Spirit has meticulously maintained, preserved, the Word of Elohim so that I can know Him personally;

Well yes it has changed over the years. The fact we have 100 different translations, transliterations and versions circulating today attest to that fact. Your own argument to me when I proved to you your god created evil according to your book; contends the KJV was "rushed" and had to be corrected. Of course your argument fell short because 'evil' and 'calamity' are used interchangeably in the dispensation of the message in Isaiah are one in the same. Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. See, just as @maxx said, you do not understand the history of your religion.

just_sayin

maxx said:

do you know that  Elohim is plural? which means that god{s} created the heavens and earth. They were polytheistic back then. @RickeyHoltsclaw

SMH.  The fundamental creed of all Israel, the Shema, is an affirmation that God is one.  There are some plural Hebrew words which are understood to be singular.  See Encyclopedia Britanica:

Though Elohim is plural in form, it is understood in the singular sense. Thus, in Genesis the words, “In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth,” Elohim is monotheistic in connotation, though its grammatical structure seems polytheistic.

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

maxx said:

do you know that  Elohim is plural? which means that god{s} created the heavens and earth. They were polytheistic back then. @RickeyHoltsclaw

SMH.  The fundamental creed of all Israel, the Shema, is an affirmation that God is one.  There are some plural Hebrew words which are understood to be singular.  See Encyclopedia Britanica:

Though Elohim is plural in form, it is understood in the singular sense. Thus, in Genesis the words, “In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth,” Elohim is monotheistic in connotation, though its grammatical structure seems polytheistic.

Genesis contradicts you. Are you calling your god a ? The pluralistic god...

Genesis 3:22  'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever. '

maxx

understood! it just means it is accepted in mainstream religion as singular; and it does not change the fact it ois plural.  They were all polytheistic back then. @just_sayin

maxx

unbelievable. i have and can show you many changes, many different translations, many different ways the early church has changed the bible to suit its needs; all duly recorded history and you still will not believe it. @RickeyHoltsclaw

Barnardot

@maxx Look lets be totally clear about this. If Jesus was alive today he would be no different from Jim Jones and David Koresh. All that Dead Sea scroll crap was written hundreds of years after Christ and of course his followers would have written a complete load of glossy Do Goody Guy bovine mess about him. Theres every reason to believe that he was probably worse than Jim Jones given the time period he lived in. And remember all his so called quotes in the Bible were translated from writers we dont even know then the tale goes down the line until the bugger is put on a pedastool and made to look hole some.

No, I reckon he was no more than a self-centered extreme right manipulating social path who was in tent on controlling others. 

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

maxx said:

do you know that  Elohim is plural? which means that god{s} created the heavens and earth. They were polytheistic back then. @RickeyHoltsclaw

SMH.  The fundamental creed of all Israel, the Shema, is an affirmation that God is one.  There are some plural Hebrew words which are understood to be singular.  See Encyclopedia Britanica:

Though Elohim is plural in form, it is understood in the singular sense. Thus, in Genesis the words, “In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth,” Elohim is monotheistic in connotation, though its grammatical structure seems polytheistic.

Genesis contradicts you. Are you calling your god a ? The pluralistic god...

Genesis 3:22  'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever. '

SMH.  While the word  'us' is sometimes explained as a reference to the trinity, it is most likely keeping in the tradition of the idea of authority or council commonly found in Semitic languages.  An example of this in modern days is when the queen of England would always use the term 'we' to mean herself.  The plural was used by rulers to reference their decrees or thoughts, not to necessarily indicate a group of Gods or rulers speaking.  Think of it as the 'royal we', not an actual 'we'.  No one in antiquity thought of it as meaning multiple gods.

@FactFinder, I have to ask, since you could have done a 30 second Bing search and discovered what I just mentioned for yourself, why are you an atheist?  You went and looked up the Bible verse to 'prove your point', yet as someone who spent years in church, you had to have known that someone somewhere had answered the question already.  It is evident that you were not won over to atheism by the overwhelming evidence for it.  If that were the case, you would have shared it by now.  Did something happen to make you mad at God?  

RickeyHoltsclaw

maxx said:

unbelievable. i have and can show you many changes, many different translations, many different ways the early church has changed the bible to suit its needs; all duly recorded history and you still will not believe it. @RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx ;  show away...

just_sayin

maxx said:

unbelievable. i have and can show you many changes, many different translations, many different ways the early church has changed the bible to suit its needs; all duly recorded history and you still will not believe it. @RickeyHoltsclaw

Hey, I got to admit it has been a minute since I read Bruce Metzger's Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament.  He documents all the variations in the manuscripts (See his Koine Greek New Testament footnotes on every page).  I am not aware of any 'changes' that impact any significant doctrinal issue at all.  Could you give us the specifics of what you are talking about.  

RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Nothing has been changed...the written word has been carefully preserved by the omnipotent Holy Spirit down through the ages though the Bible was ravaged, hated, burned, ostracized, the Holy Spirit has meticulously maintained, preserved, the Word of Elohim so that I can know Him personally;

Well yes it has changed over the years. The fact we have 100 different translations, transliterations and versions circulating today attest to that fact. Your own argument to me when I proved to you your god created evil according to your book; contends the KJV was "rushed" and had to be corrected. Of course your argument fell short because 'evil' and 'calamity' are used interchangeably in the dispensation of the message in Isaiah are one in the same. Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. See, just as @maxx said, you do not understand the history of your religion.

@Facfinder ; @ZeusAres42 ; @just_sayin ; @jack ; @MayCaesar   "Translations" are not manuscripts. The "Autographs" have not changed though they are no longer extant...the copies from the Autographs do display scribal inconsistencies amounting to approximately .5 pages over the entire Torah - the Historical Books - the Prophets and the Wisdom literature...these are omissions of a letter or a word but the text is perfect in context and message. You can rely upon what is provided and you will be judged by same in Eternity.

RickeyHoltsclaw

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

maxx said:

do you know that  Elohim is plural? which means that god{s} created the heavens and earth. They were polytheistic back then. @RickeyHoltsclaw

SMH.  The fundamental creed of all Israel, the Shema, is an affirmation that God is one.  There are some plural Hebrew words which are understood to be singular.  See Encyclopedia Britanica:

Though Elohim is plural in form, it is understood in the singular sense. Thus, in Genesis the words, “In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth,” Elohim is monotheistic in connotation, though its grammatical structure seems polytheistic.

Genesis contradicts you. Are you calling your god a ? The pluralistic god...

Genesis 3:22  'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever. '

SMH.  While the word  'us' is sometimes explained as a reference to the trinity, it is most likely keeping in the tradition of the idea of authority or council commonly found in Semitic languages.  An example of this in modern days is when the queen of England would always use the term 'we' to mean herself.  The plural was used by rulers to reference their decrees or thoughts, not to necessarily indicate a group of Gods or rulers speaking.  Think of it as the 'royal we', not an actual 'we'.  No one in antiquity thought of it as meaning multiple gods.

@FactFinder, I have to ask, since you could have done a 30 second Bing search and discovered what I just mentioned for yourself, why are you an atheist?  You went and looked up the Bible verse to 'prove your point', yet as someone who spent years in church, you had to have known that someone somewhere had answered the question already.  It is evident that you were not won over to atheism by the overwhelming evidence for it.  If that were the case, you would have shared it by now.  Did something happen to make you mad at God?  

@Factfinder ; @just_sayin ; @ZeusAres42 @MayCaesar @GnosticChristian

Apologetics would certainly be easier if the Doctrine of the Trinity could be denied with substance but having studied the Scriptures with fervor, I cannot deny what is before me and I cannot reject the truism that the Holy Spirit has introduced Himself as Elohim and as Three individual Persons, Three individual personalities and individual will as One-Elohim; in fact, anyone who denies Jesus as Elohim-God of the Universe, Time, is not redeemed by faith and they remain in their sin and Jesus is not only our Messiah but He is also Creator (Genesis 1; John 1; Hebrews 1; Colossians 1) and Judge (Rev 20:22-25; 2 Corinthians 5:10). 

Jesus warned His Jewish audience that if they denied Him as "I AM" (Exodus 3:14) they would die in their sin (John 8:24) and it is true that the reality of Messiah's deity is taught and confirmed by the indwelling Holy Spirit repeatedly; therefore, if one denies the deity of Jesus by denying the Trinity of Elohim, they do not possess the indwelling Holy Spirit and they are therefore not redeemed by faith as the Holy Spirit is the Guarantor - Evidence of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13-14); therefore, if one is absent the Spirit they remain in their sin and they are NOT in covenant with the Father. 

 

ZeusAres42

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Please don't tag me now regarding this unless you have sufficient evidence that counts as justification for your claims. If you haven't got that then I am not interested. 

I respect you as a person but I can't respect a faulty epistemology. I wish you all the best.

RickeyHoltsclaw

ZeusAres42 said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Please don't tag me now regarding this unless you have sufficient evidence that counts as justification for your claims. If you haven't got that then I am not interested. 

I respect you as a person but I can't respect a faulty epistemology. I wish you all the best.

@ZeusAres ; You talk the talk...walk the walk...if my rhetoric intimidates your demon, so be it.

maxx

i am not saying that the overall theme, or message has been completely altered; i am saying there have been changes: some  for easier reading, altered verses, added or verses omitted, some changes were for political or social reasons.  18 Alterations Made to the Bible and its Consequences | (historycollection.com)  @just_sayin ; Changes in the King James version (bible-researcher.com)    What was the first Bible like? (theconversation.com)  you can also read the codex sinaiticus on the internet archive. the codex is believed to be the first fully composed bible. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx ; @Factfinder ;

Translations are NOT manuscripts...Translations follow certain protocol with the reader in mind. I personally entered into covenant relationship with the Father through faith in Jesus during my first true read of the Scriptures in a paraphrased Bible called "The Living Bible." DEFINITELY NOT a study Bible or a word for word translation into the English language but a textual style in a novel format where the "thought" and the "intent" of the context was provided in a very easy to understand format. 

The Living Bible blew me away but that was only the precursor to a journey of in-depth study in various translations, some more of a word-for-word translation as per the New American Standard Bible (NASB) and these studies were supplemented by the Hebrew-Greek-Aramaic dictionary from Strongs. 

Our English translations are very good but the English language is not sufficiently detailed to adequately translate the Hebrew and certainly NOT the complex Greek...but translators approach their task with the reader in mind and "translations" offer a variety of choices relevant to what the reader is seeking to do...if you desire an overall understanding of what the Scriptures teach...something like the ESV or the NKJV or even the Living Bible will get you started but if one seeks to perform an exegesis concerning a particular doctrinal issue, I prefer the NASB and access to the Hebrew and Greek text and dictionary.

The most relevant factor concerning in-depth knowledge of the Scriptures is the presence, tutelage, of the indwelling Holy Spirit who is given to everyone who trusts-believes in Jesus as Messiah..it is the Spirit who is our Guarantor of New Covenant relationship with the Father by faith in Jesus (Ephesians 1:13-14) and it is the indwelling Holy Spirit who opens up the truth of Scripture through His divine anointing; void the Spirit, only a surface, topical, cursory, understanding of the Scriptures is possible...only by the Holy Spirit do the words on the pages of Scripture peel away like the skin of an onion...precept upon precept.

maxx

i am saying that the earlies biblical manuscripts differ in a way, that does not reflect upon many things the bible of today has. You refuse to read the links, nor the history, because you beliefs will not allow you to accept any differences. i suggest you at least read the link i sent just sayin, but i doubt that you will. @RickeyHoltsclaw

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw@ZeusAres

Can you imagine a punk like this with a gun and a badge? God should have cleansed ricky's Adamic curse.

maxx

do you like Muslims? @RickeyHoltsclaw

just_sayin

maxx said:

i am not saying that the overall theme, or message has been completely altered; i am saying there have been changes: some  for easier reading, altered verses, added or verses omitted, some changes were for political or social reasons.  18 Alterations Made to the Bible and its Consequences | (historycollection.com)  @just_sayin ; Changes in the King James version (bible-researcher.com)    What was the first Bible like? (theconversation.com)  you can also read the codex sinaiticus on the internet archive. the codex is believed to be the first fully composed bible. 

Maxx, there are indeed variations in the the various surviving copies of the bible from antiquity.  About 90 percent of them are spelling variations. That's what textual criticism is about.   For instance, I can read a Bible verse and see all the variations in the text, but more importantly, because of the vast number of surviving copies, I can with a high degree of certainty know what the original copy likely said.  

Most are very incidental, an added clause, or a change of tense.  Common errors when copying a text manually.  When you have that many surviving copies though, you can pinpoint, where variations entered into the process, and have a good idea of what the original said.  The King James translation is based on older greek texts, and the Old Testament  text it used is from around 1000 AD.  It didn't use the oldest or best translations.  That doesn't mean it is a bad translation.  The claim of many Christians is not that every Bible translation is without error, but that the message of the original autographs is God's Word.

I'll give you an example of a bigger sized variation.  John 3:15.  "so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life."  Doesn't appear in the oldest translations.  It is a clause from John 3:16 and likely a scribal error.  Does it contain a message that is not in keeping with the original message?  No, it is literally a phrase from verified text.  Considering that the manuscripts were all written by hand and had to be rewritten every couple of decades, the amount of variations is actually very small.  If you get a chance to check out Bruce Metzer's Greek New Testament you will see how he notes all variations on the footnotes on each page and let's the user know the confidence rating of the preferred text.  

Factfinder

@just_sayin

Oh please. Ancient hebrew was nothing like the bible reads today, It was mostly hieroglyphics...

Joeseph

@just_sayin

ARGUMENT TOPIC: Just sayin is a lover of big business and detests minimun wage laws yet claims he's following the teachings of Jesus, I'm convinced he never actually opened a bible and his claims to be a Christian are hilarious to be honest.

Your dishonesty is appalling the OP's contention is ......

if jesus were alive today, he would be considered either a socialist or a liberal. One only has to read his quotes in the bible to understand this. anyone agree or not, and why? 

 


You stated.....Beware! Guard against every kind of greed. Life is not measured by how much you own.”

That's hilarious considering you think the lowest paid in America should not be entitled to a living wage that covers , healthcare , housing , medical you detest minimun wage laws yet applaud every tax break allowed to the greediest most explotitive employers in the US , your hypocrisy is astounding.

The Bible is full of verses that demonstrate God’s heart toward the poor among us.

Let these verses about helping the poor encourage you as you seek to live a generous life, displaying the same love Christ shows to us. For while we were poor and needy, Christ died for us.

Deuteronomy 15:7 If among you, one of your brothers should become poor, in any of your towns within your land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother.

Deuteronomy 15:11 For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, “You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.”

1 Samuel 2:7 The Lord makes poor and makes rich; he brings low and he exalts.

1 Samuel 2:8 He raises up the poor from the dust; he lifts the needy from the ash heap to make them sit with princes and inherit a seat of honor. For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and on them he has set the world.

Psalm 9:18 For the needy shall not always be forgotten, and the hope of the poor shall not perish forever.

Psalm 34:6 This poor man cried, and the Lord heard him and saved him out of all his troubles.

Psalm 35:10 All my bones shall say, “O Lord, who is like you, delivering the poor from him who is too strong for him, the poor and needy from him who robs him?”

Psalm 37:21The wicked borrows but does not pay back, but the righteous is generous and gives.

Psalm 40:17 As for me, I am poor and needy, but the Lord takes thought for me. You are my help and my deliverer; do not delay, O my God!

Psalm 41:1 Blessed is the one who considers the poor! In the day of trouble the Lord delivers him;

Psalm 72:12 For he delivers the needy when he calls, the poor and him who has no helper.

Proverbs 14:21 Whoever despises his neighbor is a sinner, but blessed is he who is generous to the poor.

Proverbs 14:31 Whoever oppresses a poor man insults his Maker, but he who is generous to the needy honors him.

Proverbs 16:19 It is better to be of a lowly spirit with the poor than to divide the spoil with the proud.

Proverbs 19:17 Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed.

Proverbs 22:9 The generous will themselves be blessed, for they share their food with the poor.

Proverbs 22:16 Whoever oppresses the poor to increase his own wealth, or gives to the rich, will only come to poverty.

Isaiah 29:19 The meek shall obtain fresh joy in the Lord, and the poor among mankind shall exult in the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 41:17 When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue is parched with thirst, I the Lord will answer them; I the God of Israel will not forsake them.

Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 10:21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Luke 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.

2 Corinthians 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich.

2 Corinthians 9:11 You will be enriched in every way to be generous in every way, which through us will produce thanksgiving to God.

Galatians 2:10 Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

Ephesians 4:28  Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.

1 Timothy 6:18 They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share.

James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?

James 2:14-17 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

That concludes our list of Bible verses about helping the poor among us. Reflect on this list as you go about your daily life and seek opportunities to share your generosity with those less fortunate.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx

Jesus was not and is NOT a liberal .

maxx

Joeseph said:

@just_sayin

ARGUMENT TOPIC: Just sayin is a lover of big business and detests minimun wage laws yet claims he's following the teachings of Jesus, I'm convinced he never actually opened a bible and his claims to be a Christian are hilarious to be honest.

Your dishonesty is appalling the OP's contention is ......

if jesus were alive today, he would be considered either a socialist or a liberal. One only has to read his quotes in the bible to understand this. anyone agree or not, and why? 

 


You stated.....Beware! Guard against every kind of greed. Life is not measured by how much you own.”

That's hilarious considering you think the lowest paid in America should not be entitled to a living wage that covers , healthcare , housing , medical you detest minimun wage laws yet applaud every tax break allowed to the greediest most explotitive employers in the US , your hypocrisy is astounding.

The Bible is full of verses that demonstrate God’s heart toward the poor among us.

Let these verses about helping the poor encourage you as you seek to live a generous life, displaying the same love Christ shows to us. For while we were poor and needy, Christ died for us.

Deuteronomy 15:7 If among you, one of your brothers should become poor, in any of your towns within your land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother.

Deuteronomy 15:11 For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, “You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.”

1 Samuel 2:7 The Lord makes poor and makes rich; he brings low and he exalts.

1 Samuel 2:8 He raises up the poor from the dust; he lifts the needy from the ash heap to make them sit with princes and inherit a seat of honor. For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and on them he has set the world.

Psalm 9:18 For the needy shall not always be forgotten, and the hope of the poor shall not perish forever.

Psalm 34:6 This poor man cried, and the Lord heard him and saved him out of all his troubles.

Psalm 35:10 All my bones shall say, “O Lord, who is like you, delivering the poor from him who is too strong for him, the poor and needy from him who robs him?”

Psalm 37:21The wicked borrows but does not pay back, but the righteous is generous and gives.

Psalm 40:17 As for me, I am poor and needy, but the Lord takes thought for me. You are my help and my deliverer; do not delay, O my God!

Psalm 41:1 Blessed is the one who considers the poor! In the day of trouble the Lord delivers him;

Psalm 72:12 For he delivers the needy when he calls, the poor and him who has no helper.

Proverbs 14:21 Whoever despises his neighbor is a sinner, but blessed is he who is generous to the poor.

Proverbs 14:31 Whoever oppresses a poor man insults his Maker, but he who is generous to the needy honors him.

Proverbs 16:19 It is better to be of a lowly spirit with the poor than to divide the spoil with the proud.

Proverbs 19:17 Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed.

Proverbs 22:9 The generous will themselves be blessed, for they share their food with the poor.

Proverbs 22:16 Whoever oppresses the poor to increase his own wealth, or gives to the rich, will only come to poverty.

Isaiah 29:19 The meek shall obtain fresh joy in the Lord, and the poor among mankind shall exult in the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 41:17 When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue is parched with thirst, I the Lord will answer them; I the God of Israel will not forsake them.

Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 10:21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Luke 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.

2 Corinthians 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich.

2 Corinthians 9:11 You will be enriched in every way to be generous in every way, which through us will produce thanksgiving to God.

Galatians 2:10 Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

Ephesians 4:28  Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.

1 Timothy 6:18 They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share.

James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?

James 2:14-17 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

That concludes our list of Bible verses about helping the poor among us. Reflect on this list as you go about your daily life and seek opportunities to share your generosity with those less fortunate.

so do you believe that considering the above verses; that jesus was a right winger like yourself?  how many food banks has republicans opened up? How many social programs? get real ricky.  @rickyholtzclaw ; 

just_sayin

@maxx
so do you believe that considering the above verses; that jesus was a right winger like yourself? 

I don't see Jesus identifying with any political party.  he is promoting a much different kingdom and authority.  You seem to be suggesting that compassion is only the domain of leftists.  How did you come to this conclusion?  It seems to me you have to ignore the other side of most issues to make this conclusion. Some examples:

1) It isn't compassionate to kill an innocent human life by abortion.
2) It isn't compassionate to keep a poor Black child chained to a failed public school because it helps a teacher's union that made huge donations to Democrat candidates
3) it isn't compassionate to overspend and pub future generations in perpetual debt
4) it isn't compassionate to force people of faith to violate their faith to make cakes for unions that are against their faith.
5) It isn't compassionate to support DEI programs which discriminate against someone because of their race.  

how many food banks has republicans opened up? How many social programs? 

Honestly, probably most of them.  Most food banks are run by religious groups which are statistically stilted toward Republicans in the US.  Ask yourself when was the last time you saw atheists out feeding the poor or standing on corners collecting money for Christmas presents for poor kids?  I know I've never seen it.

Bogan

maxx

i agree than compassion is not strictly related to any specific type of person. What i am saying, that if jesus were alive today and engaged in politics, then based upon his views, he would probably be a liberal.  @just_sayin

RickeyHoltsclaw

maxx said:

do you like Muslims? @RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx ;  Not particularly...and I loathe Islamist's

RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx ;  For you, just another irrelevant atheist,

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maxx

i never said i was an atheist; those are your words.You know, you should really read a bit on NDE.  NDERF Home Page  click on stories and perhaps people who died and return, may give you a different perspective. @RickeyHoltsclaw

RickeyHoltsclaw

@maxx ; Jesus is the only Way to life...irrespective your obfuscation...you're living a lie...trust Jesus and LIVE.

maxx

right; no wonder you got banned before. @RickeyHoltsclaw