Do I Have To Respect Your Beliefs?

Putin

AI respects no one.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@JulesKorngold ; You will "believe" in Jesus as your Messiah who died to pay your sin-debt owed the Father and live eternally or you'll reject that belief and die in Hell. You're not mandated to adhere to what I believe but if you desire to live and thrive you will honor Jesus as Messiah.

JulesKorngold

@RickeyHoltsclaw
Your beliefs are pure bull.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@JulesKorngold ; Prove it.

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@JulesKorngold ; Prove it.

Prove your fairytale Ricky. 

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw


Says you who believe Jesus resurrected .......irony ........

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; @Joeseph ; If you desire "proof"....read the Scriptures with prayerful intent....ask the Holy Spirit to enliven your heart and spirit to the Truth of Elohim and your purpose in Time and Eternity and sit quietly, ready carefully, every word of the "Gospel of John" and make an "informed" decision about your eternal destiny...not one based on the absurdity of atheism accompanied by spiritual ignorance. At least make an effort to live and prosper spiritually? Don't die as a Catholic victim.

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw


 ; If you desire "proof"....read the Scriptures with prayerful intent..


But its obvious to all youve never read a bible , FF and I keep whipping you using your gods own words which you keep saying  " he didnt mean that" .........

Lets look at anther choice bit of your gods lunacy , and you want us to follow him.........LOL 

BTW im still not a catholic or a satanist , you said last week i was a Muslim , make your mind up 

THE LOVING GOD RICKEY THINKS WORTHY OF WORSHIP,............OH DEAR .......

Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men.  All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle.  They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword.  Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder.  They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived.  After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp.  But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle.  “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded.  “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor.  They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people.  Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; @Factfinder @21CenturyIconoclast ; The pagan tribes seeking to deceive Israel's children to worship Baal and Molech were to be utterly destroyed...to die completely in totality...annihilation...the demonic seed was to be extinguished; this, as Elohim ordained Israel's children through Judah as progenitors of the Messiah in order to fulfill the divine prophecy made to Abraham in Genesis 12:3b. Pagans then like atheists now were not to live when they sought to thwart Elohim's eschatological plan concerning the defeat of Satan via the Messiah....you too, in your atheism will be annihilated by fire at the Judgment of the Condemned as you have chosen to be an enemy of Elohim's eschatological plan...you will certainly reap what you're sowing; this, without excuse. 

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men.  All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle.  They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword.  Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder.  They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived.  After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp.  But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle.  “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded.  “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor.  They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people.  Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ;  Have you been in war...or trained for war...do you understand the implications of destroying an enemy completely? Do you have any idea relevant to Elohim's eschatological plan for Time and Eternity and why you and I are constrained by Time and physics? 

Do you possess any ability to seek Truth in the Scriptures and honor the Holy Spirit's work? 

Can you set-aside your HATE and VITRIOL for Jesus and Christianity and the Bible and maybe internalize the Scriptures from a different perspective? 

Don't you find it somewhat hypocritical that you, an atheistic demonized abortion advocating, LGBTQ advocating, man points a spiritually ignorant finger at God when YOU have NOT the slightest idea of His plans and purposes?

MayCaesar

I do not expect anyone to respect me or my beliefs - however, the respect is required if they want to interact with me. It is of no consequence to me what a random beggar on the street thinks about me, but any friend, any business partner, any client either respects me, or stops being my friend / business partner / client.

I have cut off some toxic people from my life in the past and never regretted it. I surround myself with people who support me and help me succeed, just like I support them and help them succeed. People who constantly tell me how I am wrong about everything I remove from my life pretty quickly. Constructive criticism is great; disrespect is not.

GiantMan

Always remember that when it comes to personal relationships, tolerance is a virtue; but when it comes to truth, tolerance is a travesty.

Factfinder

GiantMan said:

Always remember that when it comes to personal relationships, tolerance is a virtue; but when it comes to truth, tolerance is a travesty.

We already know Christianity is intolerant of the truth. These boards prove that. What's your point, had an unexpected rational thought sneak into your brain?

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men.  All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle.  They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword.  Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder.  They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived.  After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp.  But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle.  “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded.  “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor.  They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people.  Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Bogan

Joseph quote   Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp.  But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle.  “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded.  “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor.  They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people.  Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Joseph has got you there, Ricky.    Moses was a genocidal arsehole.  

BonitaVanhooser

Don't disrespect anyone's beliefs. Period. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; So what?

Joeseph

@BonitaVanhooser

Don't disrespect anyone's beliefs. Period. 

So don't disrespect a Klu Klux Klans belief blacks are inferior? Seriously? 

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw


I know you see your god as commanding slaughter as just another day at the office.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; Elohim is a Warrior...He fought to bring forth His Messiah through Judah who would destroy the works of the Devil; this for eschatological purposes concerning the restoration of holiness and order to His Kingdom while simultaneously maintaining volitional love with His cherished angelic creation that remained faithful to Him during the coup initiated by Satan. I trust Elohim's sovereignty.

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw


Yet he would watch a young girl being raped and do nothing ......your god is useless , just like you.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ;  Elohim allows a useless atheist like you to live...why?

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Joeseph ;  Elohim allows a useless atheist like you to live...why?

Elohim doesn't exist and this proves it..;

Bogan

@Joeseph ;    So don't disrespect a Klu Klux Klans belief blacks are inferior? Seriously? 

Given the way that US blacks are behaving right now, perhaps you should consider whether the KKK boys just happened to have a point?   

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ;  Prove Elohim does not exist.

Barnardot

@Bogan ;Given the way that US blacks are behaving right now, perhaps you should consider whether the KKK boys just happened to have a point?   

They have no valid point at all and no body in there right mind has any respect at all for those half brain obseen nits.

Barnardot

@BonitaVanhooser ;Don't disrespect anyone's beliefs. Period. 

So we should not disrespect Hitlers beliefs should we? And we should not disrespect the KKK should we? 

I have totally no respect for your stu pid belief. Period. Try using your brain and you might get some where next time.

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Elohim allows a useless atheist like you to live...why?


You have it the wrong way around old boy let's re-cap your god would watch a child  being raped and do nothing yet you kiss his b-ttt, your god watches babies die of cancer  and does f-ck all yet you applaud him .......your god is as much use as a chocolate tea-pot utterly useless just like you.

just_sayin

Argument Topic: HOW TO ANSWER @JOESEPH

Joeseph said:

You have it the wrong way around old boy let's re-cap your god would watch a child  being raped and do nothing yet you kiss his b-ttt, your god watches babies die of cancer  and does f-ck all yet you applaud him .......your god is as much use as a chocolate tea-pot utterly useless just like you.

@Joeseph,

Well, if you are looking for answers to your questions, They are answered  here in these two short video clips.  It goes through the logical argument for a good God who permits evil (I've actually gone through the content of them with you before):





@RickeyHoltsclaw

Let me share 2 Bible verses for you:

Answer not a fool according to his folly,
    lest you be like him yourself.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
    lest he be wise in his own eyes. - Proverbs 26:4-5 ESV

The point of the 2 verses back to back like that is to make it evident that there is no good way to answer a fool.  @Joeseph is trolling you.  If your responses are only for him, then I don't think he is interested.  If he is, he'll watch the short video clips.  Be aware of of his intentions, and the importance of your own time.  Same goes for @FactFinder - he's struggled since his wife died and he's lashing out at God.  Tearing your faith down, is his way of dealing with his loss.  Looking for honest answers to his questions is not something he is interested in right now.  Pray for him.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ;  I love and respect Elohim, the Father, Son and Spirit as they are my life and my Hope....you can't understand this because you're an arrogant, selfish, vulgar, atheist dying in Hell in your self-righteousness and wilful spiritual ignorance...this is your decision, not mine or my Lord's. You remain in Time only because of my Lord's patience and mercy, not mine.

Joeseph

@just_sayin

But the only fool and troll is you , here is another example of you doing all in your power to avoid getting schooled yet again , you lie, misrepresent and fire off childish insults when beaten , now you're using the cowardly Lane Craig to do your arguing for you via videos made by idi -otic christians.......

I laughed out loud at the first one and it's utter gibberish regarding free will , the question you're still running from is ......how can we have free will when God knows our every future choice as its determined ? How can he have free will if he knows all his future determined  choices?

Also why would you worship an id-iot of a god who knows how his creations will behave yet continues to watch and hope they do otherwise? 


Seems like you inherited your gods genetic id-ocy.

just_sayin

Joeseph said:

@just_sayin

But the only fool and troll is you , here is another example of you doing all in your power to avoid getting schooled yet again , you lie, misrepresent and fire off childish insults when beaten , now you're using the cowardly Lane Craig to do your arguing for you via videos made by idi -otic christians.......

I laughed out loud at the first one and it's utter gibberish regarding free will , the question you're still running from is ......how can we have free will when God knows our every future choice as its determined ? How can he have free will if he knows all his future determined  choices?

Also why would you worship an id-iot of a god who knows how his creations will behave yet continues to watch and hope they do otherwise? 


Seems like you inherited your gods genetic id-ocy.

I posted the Lane Craig videos because I've already answered the questions, multiple times.  Videos are quicker when dealing with trolls and my time matters.

Theological fatalism, which is what your argument is called, has been rejected by many philosophers for some time.  God's knowledge of future choices is innate to His nature, not deterministic.  As the 6th century philosopher Boethius explained, that God is not in time and has no temporal properties, so God does not have beliefs at a "time". It is therefore a mistake to say God had beliefs yesterday, or has beliefs today, or will have beliefs tomorrow. It is also a mistake to say God had a belief on a certain date, such as June 1, 2004. The way Boethius describes God’s cognitive grasp of temporal reality, all temporal events are before the mind of God at once. To say “at once” or “simultaneously” is to use a temporal metaphor, but Boethius is clear that it does not make sense to think of the whole of temporal reality as being before God’s mind in a single temporal present. It is an a temporal present in which God has a single complete grasp of all events in the entire span of time. (as cited from Stanford Philosophy Department).

As Alvin Plantiga' Ockamist proposal argued using the imaginary person, Jones. (t1 - past time, t2 a future time)

(CPP) It was within Jones’ power at t2 to do something such that if he did it, God would not have held the belief he in fact held at t1. - see Alvin Plantiga, “On Ockham’s Way Out,” Faith and Philosophy, 3(3): 235–269.

You can think of it as God's foreknowledge does not make our decisions, He just knows them.  

Here's yet another way of thinking of it - since God exists at all times, your decision, changes the past (what God knew about it) without denying you the free choice to make it (I'm just giving you a different theory - not advocating this one).  This isn't too different of an idea than what Roger Penrose proposed in his Nobel Prize work.  He claims the measuring of a particle causes the collapse of the wavefunction and literally alters the past.  He uses this same logic to argue for consciousness.

Tell me, is your idi-ocy inherited?  Or are you the first of your kind? LOL

MayCaesar

@Joeseph

God is omniscient, he just does not know anything about the future. God is omnipotent, he just cannot prove to anyone that he exists. God has created the Universe, he just forgot to make it look like a created Universe.

These guys consume some good mushrooms.

just_sayin

MayCaesar said:

@Joeseph

God is omniscient, he just does not know anything about the future. God is omnipotent, he just cannot prove to anyone that he exists. God has created the Universe, he just forgot to make it look like a created Universe.

These guys consume some good mushrooms.

May that was dull-witted.  God is timeless - past, present, and future are all before Him.  The issue is does his knowledge negate free will.  The answer is no it does not.  The concept of past, present and future all existing simultaneously is a very popular scientific theory right now.  The argument I laid out to @Joeseph was a standard philosophical argument.  I happened to pull it from Stanford's Philosophy department.  

Joeseph

@MayCaesar

Theists never explain how rhe world would be different and look different without a god?

MayCaesar

just_sayin said:

May that was dull-witted.  God is timeless - past, present, and future are all before Him.  The issue is does his knowledge negate free will.  The answer is no it does not.  The concept of past, present and future all existing simultaneously is a very popular scientific theory right now.  The argument I laid out to @Joeseph was a standard philosophical argument.  I happened to pull it from Stanford's Philosophy department.  

Are you trying to argue for two mutually exclusive things at the same time? That god both knows and does not know the future?

Joeseph said:

Theists never explain how rhe world would be different and look different without a god?

Well, they have yet to explain what "god" even is in clear terms. The pal before you mentioned that it is a "timeless" thing. I am not sure what it means for a timeless thing to be embedded in time, and neither does he - but it sounds cool and profound if one does not think about it too hard.

Jordan Peterson said something much more profound in one of the recent podcasts. Paraphrasing: "Nobody knows what god is, but everybody believes in god". He said it unironically... Just do not focus on words, do not try to think this through logically. You are not supposed to do that. You are supposed to marvel at the depth of... something that nobody understands, but everybody believes.

just_sayin

Joeseph said:

@MayCaesar

Theists never explain how rhe world would be different and look different without a god?

Oh, that's an easy question - there wouldn't be a world. There would be nothing - as in the the thing that rocks dream about.  

MayCaesar

@just_sayin

I suppose said god then would not exist without having a god that created it. But we will just wave a magic wand and say that god defines human comprehension, so basic logic does not apply to him.

Logic only applies when it is convenient. That is the purpose of logic, after all: to validate our silly beliefs. Right?

just_sayin

MayCaesar said:

@just_sayin

I suppose said god then would not exist without having a god that created it. But we will just wave a magic wand and say that god defines human comprehension, so basic logic does not apply to him.

Logic only applies when it is convenient. That is the purpose of logic, after all: to validate our silly beliefs. Right?

Your premise is flawed.  All things do not need a creator, only created things need a creator.  Your logic is essentially something like 'who created the uncreated being, or who caused the being which needed no cause?'  God created space-time, logically He then existed outside of space-time, making him timeless.  Therefore there was no "time" when He did not exist. 

In philosophy, God is said to be a necessary being, as He has no potential in His existence or being. By that they mean, He cannot 'be' any other way then He actually is, since He has no potential 'to be' or exist another way, being purely actual and devoid of all potential in His existence.  God could not have failed to exist.  If you want to learn more - look here.

Apparently, logic isn't something atheists bother using in their arguments.  LOL

MayCaesar

@just_sayin

By saying that "only created things need a creator", you have not said anything more than "things that have property X have property X". My argument remains unchallenged.

Your second paragraph is a word salad. It does not in any way suggest that the entity you are defining in this arcane way actually exists, or even can exist. Your link does not support your... argument.

Joeseph

@just_sayin

You have absolutely no way of demonstrating that , and if you believe rocks dream one cannot expect to much from you by the way of a coherent response.

Joeseph

@just_sayin

Constantly lashing out and calling anyone who questions your bronze age beliefs a troll just demonstrates you're a sulky child who.isnt used to having its childish arguments questioned.

You never attempted to defend the free will.argument despite being asked many times as usual you copy and pasted Lane Craig's childish arguments and fled , you're doing it again here.

Also pretending you knew something about  what some people deem the theological fatalism argument is pretty lame , it has many labels so stop pretending you know something about it.

Again you start out by lying your own article accepts no one has ever defeated the argument and if they had you could do what you never can as in prove it.


Your appeal to authorities is always amusing and you're now relying on the ridiculous mumbo jumbo from Botheius,

***You can think of it as God's foreknowledge does not make our decisions, He just knows them.  ***

Our decisions are set in stone if god knows them so are all his future decisions,  so god or us are not in any way free.

Your god knows our future decisions yet plays this ridiculous game of waiting to watch us do exactly as he knows , also you're tap dancing around answering yes or no does god know the future or not ?

You just admitted he knows our future so he either knows his future or not,which is it?

You never answer a question you just post up a wall of incoherent rubbish thinking it sounds coherent.why you're mentioning Penrose is beyond.me do you ever formulate am opinio nf your own?

As usual being a " christian " you sign of with your usual childish insults are you capable of actually arguing your hopeless case without constantly flying off the handle?

Joeseph

@MayCaesar

People like Peterson express themselves using similar terminology to Deepak Chopra as you correctly stated its meant to sound profound and it flies as most people are to intellectually lazy to bother calling him on his b-ll.

Peterson has in the past supplied these definitions of god......
.......

1. God is expressed in the truthful speech that rectifies pathological hierarchies.

That's just nonsense.......

1. God confronts the Chaos of Being itself and generates Habitable Order (that's the metaphysical proposition).

Sounds exactly like Deepak ......

1. God is a transcendent reality that's only observable across the longest of timeframes.

LOL ........

Peterson loves using the term." hierarchy".



Deepak Chopra ....God is the evolutionary impulse of the universe.


Sounds like they went to the same finishing school for snake oil salesmen.

Joeseph

@just_sayin ;

Your argument is nonsense you set up criteria and stipulations that applies to everything but excludes a god, a pretty absurd position.

Also philosophy does not say god is necessary its merely a weak argument put forward by theists,  a pretty weak argument that relies on yet more semantic nonsense.

just_sayin

MayCaesar said:

@just_sayin

By saying that "only created things need a creator", you have not said anything more than "things that have property X have property X". My argument remains unchallenged.

Your second paragraph is a word salad. It does not in any way suggest that the entity you are defining in this arcane way actually exists, or even can exist. Your link does not support your... argument.

May, SMH.  It is you that has attempted to give God an attribute - created, that He does not have.  I pointed out that you made a category error.  I have not stated a formal argument for God's existence in this debate - a) because that's not the topic of the debate, and b) I was directly answering your question.  It is you who did not understand the philosophical argument you put forth.  My link addresses the topic and covers all sides of it.  

Your behavior is like a cat after it falls off of a ledge and pretends it didn't embarrass itself.  

MayCaesar

@just_sayin

You said that without god "there wouldn't be a world. There would be nothing - as in the the thing that rocks dream about." I pointed out the corollary of this statement, that if without a creator there would be nothing, then there would be no god if it was not created. "Nothing" is the word you chose to use. 

You have changed your argument then, replacing "nothing" with something like "nothing that is created". But that is, as I, again, pointed out, a tautology. Of course, without a creator, nothing could be created. That does not say anything of substance rather than reiterate the definition of "creation". It does not address my point.

Nor does your link - which you, we both know, have not read, for it talks about a different issue altogether, that of the idea of god being more concrete than many abstract categories commonly suggested as candidates for necessary beings.

MayCaesar

Joeseph said:

@MayCaesar

People like Peterson express themselves using similar terminology to Deepak Chopra as you correctly stated its meant to sound profound and it flies as most people are to intellectually lazy to bother calling him on his b-ll.

Peterson has in the past supplied these definitions of god......
.......

1. God is expressed in the truthful speech that rectifies pathological hierarchies.

That's just nonsense.......

1. God confronts the Chaos of Being itself and generates Habitable Order (that's the metaphysical proposition).

Sounds exactly like Deepak ......

1. God is a transcendent reality that's only observable across the longest of timeframes.

LOL ........

Peterson loves using the term." hierarchy".



Deepak Chopra ....God is the evolutionary impulse of the universe.


Sounds like they went to the same finishing school for snake oil salesmen.

Putting a lot of complex words together and making dramatic pauses to fascinate the audience is something these people have made into an art. While in reality they do not seem to understand basic English. Here is Jordan making it clear that he does not know what "do" means:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2CuAVAERjs

Chopra's tactics is easier: he just inserts word "quantum" after every 5-10 words following a uniform distribution.

Joeseph

@MayCaesar

I was having coffee here and watched your clip its hilarious....." we don't know what you means we don't know what do means we don't know what god means " for someone who doesn't know he just needs never shuts up.

Chopra loves the term Quantum , its startling how popular he is and how people part with money to read his pseudoscientific gibberish.

Thanks a lot for the laugh I will save that piece of vintage Petersen..

RickeyHoltsclaw

I would never expect a demonic atheist to respect my beliefs...they cannot...they're Hell bound and my beliefs are naturally offensive to their flesh but I too don't respect the "belief" of a godless atheist...I think they're demonic and irrelevant. So no, it's not necessary to respect one another's beliefs....all will "pan out" in that Day.