Could God Have Created The Universe Without Evil?

just_sayin

JulesKorngold said:

If no, then God is not all-powerful.

If yes, then God why didn't he?

God is all-powerful.  Alvin Plantinga in his 'many worlds' theory claims that God could have created the universe without evil, but to do so would mean that human beings would need to be automatons, and nothing like they are now.  Any world where free will exists, there is the potential of evil to exist.  You can't have a world where free will exists, but it is never allowed to be exercised or where people's free will doesn't impact the world around them.  That's a logical fallacy.  It would be a logical fallacy to say someone has free will but they can only make the decisions that God wants them to make.  Either free will exists or it does not.  Being all-powerful does not mean doing that which is logically contradictory.  

Why would free will be important?  Because true love can only be experienced in a world where free will exists.  Forced love is not true love.  Plantiga suggests that love is the highest good and that God created a world wherein it could exist.  That means allowing evil to exist.

A few observations: 1- evil isn't a 'created' thing - it is the privation of a thing, much like how darkness is not a tangible thing, but the the absence of light.  Evil is the absence of good.  It is not a created thing, but its existence is known as it is compared to objective good, such as God.

2 - atheists have no objective source of good or evil.  How can an atheist say anything is truly evil?  If man is the result of nature, and nothing more, then he is neither good nor evil - nature is just following the laws of the universe.  Evil is just something the atheist deems unpleasant to them - but nature does not have motives - so even this is just subjective.  There is no true evil in the world of atheism - just things they don't like.

3- People like to think that 'evil' is 'out there', but fail to acknowledge that evil has and does reside in each of us.  We don't measure up to our own standards, let alone God's.  Our motives are often selfish and driven by anger, pride, self aggrandizement, and lust.  If God were to get rid of 'evil' the first thing he would have to get rid of would be us.  

RickeyHoltsclaw

@JulesKorngold ; Elohim DID create the Universe and the Earth and the human genome void evil as Elohim created all things "very good"...it was the god of the atheist that introduced evil into the Realm of Time, not Elohim. Evil exists because free will exists and righteousness exists. The god of atheism is the root and origin of evil.

 

jack

just_sayin said:

2 - atheists have no objective source of good or evil.  How can an atheist say anything is truly evil?

Hello just:

Bingo.  We can't.  Evil is a religious construct that atheists don't accept..  Oh, we know what bad behavior is, and we know that automatically.  Nobody has to tell us.

What?  You don't automatically know that??  So, how do I know my kids are safe around you? 

excon

just_sayin

jack said:

just_sayin said:

2 - atheists have no objective source of good or evil.  How can an atheist say anything is truly evil?

Hello just:

Bingo.  We can't.  Evil is a religious construct that atheists don't accept..  Oh, we know what bad behavior is, and we know that automatically.  Nobody has to tell us.

What?  You don't automatically know that??  So, how do I know my kids are safe around you? 

excon

If you believe there is matter and nothing else, then there is no good or evil - matter doesn't have motives.  It just is.  Good and evil are just personal preference constructs.  But if you do believe true objective evil exists - then that is an evidence for God, for objective evil can not exist without an ultimate lawgiver.

The Christian world view does not say that the atheist has no morals, but that God has written his law on their hearts:

Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. - Romans 2:14-15

So even an atheist is without excuse before God.

Factfinder

@JulesKorngold

Cause it's a fictious god, take your pick of them, same reason stands.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” ~Epicurus 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; You are evil...God could have prevented you from entering Time but He allowed it and provided you the opportunity to repent and turn to Him for life...but your evil is greater than your desire to find life in Jesus...therefore, you will deserve everything that is in your future.

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

@JulesKorngold

Cause it's a fictious god, take your pick of them, same reason stands.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” ~Epicurus 

LOL.  Again, if the world is to have true love in it, then free will must be present.  True love must be a choice and not coerced.  If there is free will, then the opportunity of evil will be present.  You have failed to grasp the basics yet again.  It seems to be a pattern.  And since free will exists - it seems like your lack of honesty is a choice.  Ironic.  

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; You are evil...God could have prevented you from entering Time but He allowed it and provided you the opportunity to repent and turn to Him for life...but your evil is greater than your desire to find life in Jesus...therefore, you will deserve everything that is in your future.

If I'm evil and god created me, then he not only created evil on purpose, he created me evil. But you said god didn't do that. Get your story straight. Since I stand for love, peace and the American way, I'm good with ricky. Of course your continued disappointing life not so sure you will actually get what you deserve. Why do you call my humble pleasant, truthful nature evil? You hate truth and reality?

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

@JulesKorngold

Cause it's a fictious god, take your pick of them, same reason stands.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” ~Epicurus 

LOL.  Again, if the world is to have true love in it, then free will must be present.  True love must be a choice and not coerced.  If there is free will, then the opportunity of evil will be present.  You have failed to grasp the basics yet again.  It seems to be a pattern.  And since free will exists - it seems like your lack of honesty is a choice.  Ironic.  

That rules religion out. All religions. Your religion coerces followers....Matthew 10:28

28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell

Bend the knee or else. And you're not only deluded enough to believe that's 'free will', you repeat debunked delusional arguments in fear that the doubt you feel will send you to hell. Your judgements are childish but I know, you're desperate. Look at it this way, it doesn't matter you're losing faith, it's not real anyway as evident in your inability to explain your own bible.

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

@JulesKorngold

Cause it's a fictious god, take your pick of them, same reason stands.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” ~Epicurus 

LOL.  Again, if the world is to have true love in it, then free will must be present.  True love must be a choice and not coerced.  If there is free will, then the opportunity of evil will be present.  You have failed to grasp the basics yet again.  It seems to be a pattern.  And since free will exists - it seems like your lack of honesty is a choice.  Ironic.  

That rules religion out. All religions. Your religion coerces followers....Matthew 10:28

28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell

Bend the knee or else. And you're not only deluded enough to believe that's 'free will', you repeat debunked delusional arguments in fear that the doubt you feel will send you to hell. Your judgements are childish but I know, you're desperate. Look at it this way, it doesn't matter you're losing faith, it's not real anyway as evident in your inability to explain your own bible.

What an ignorant claim by you.  God has every right to judge His creation.  You have not shown that God does not have a right to judge - instead you have shown that He does. If a judge gives someone the death penalty, is he to blame or is the one who committed the crime to blame?  Obviously, the judge is acting according to his authorization and the law - it is the convicted criminal who is responsible for his sentence.  It is understandable that one fears the judge, but the judge is not responsible for your conduct. 

God is both just and loving.  God holds us accountable for our behavior because He is just, but God is loving, knowing that without the option of Jesus paying the price for our sins, we are lost because of our own actions.  We all deserve to be punished for our sins, yet, God has shown grace.  Like all of your countless lies, you once again lie about God - blaming Him for your behavior. Put the blame where it belongs - on yourself.  

If you don't want to accept God's free offer, you don't have to.  You don't have to bend the knee in this world - you will have to bend the knee on the day of judgement.  You see, just as in this world, the guilty don't get to determine their sentence, the judge does.  Thanks for pointing that out with your Bible verse.

Factfinder

@just_sayin

What an ignorant claim by you.  God has every right to judge His creation.  You have not shown that God does not have a right to judge - instead you have shown that He does. If a judge gives someone the death penalty, is he to blame or is the one who committed the crime to blame?

That depends Is the 'crime' an invention of a religious imaginative figure?. Does the punishment fit the crime? You haven't proven god exists nor does it prove it. That fact being what it is, if it did exist the freewill you claim it gives us I would use to resist tyrants who dispenses heavy handed punishment for a single, trivial act of freewill that has no criminal motives or actions behind it. Invent a word "sin" call it "unforgivable" and define it as "not believing illogical fantasies at face value" is not just or holy in any imaginable scenario. Yet you worship it, well the concept behind the imagination of its conception that is.

God is both just and loving.  God holds us accountable for our behavior because He is just, but God is loving, knowing that without the option of Jesus paying the price for our sins, we are lost because of our own actions.  We all deserve to be punished for our sins, yet, God has shown grace.  Like all of your countless lies, you once again lie about God - blaming Him for your behavior. Put the blame where it belongs - on yourself.

The thief on the cross proves it's not about actions that we are sent to hell for, in scripture, it's about belief. That's why in Revelation 21:8 It list 'fear' and 'unbelief' first and foremost, then followed by "abdominal" and things logically, generally considered to be actual crimes. 

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Fearful to commit as it was a fledgling cult and needed followers and unbelieving because that's the one 'act' your god and its pettiness won't forgive.

If you don't want to accept God's free offer, you don't have to.  You don't have to bend the knee in this world - you will have to bend the knee on the day of judgement.  You see, just as in this world, the guilty don't get to determine their sentence, the judge does.  Thanks for pointing that out with your Bible verse.

Thanks for finally admitting there is no freewill biblically and that you choose to worship evil incarnate. 

just_sayin

Factfinder said:

@just_sayin

What an ignorant claim by you.  God has every right to judge His creation.  You have not shown that God does not have a right to judge - instead you have shown that He does. If a judge gives someone the death penalty, is he to blame or is the one who committed the crime to blame?

That depends Is the 'crime' an invention of a religious imaginative figure?. Does the punishment fit the crime? You haven't proven god exists nor does it prove it. That fact being what it is, if it did exist the freewill you claim it gives us I would use to resist tyrants who dispenses heavy handed punishment for a single, trivial act of freewill that has no criminal motives or actions behind it. Invent a word "sin" call it "unforgivable" and define it as "not believing illogical fantasies at face value" is not just or holy in any imaginable scenario. Yet you worship it, well the concept behind the imagination of its conception that is.

God is both just and loving.  God holds us accountable for our behavior because He is just, but God is loving, knowing that without the option of Jesus paying the price for our sins, we are lost because of our own actions.  We all deserve to be punished for our sins, yet, God has shown grace.  Like all of your countless lies, you once again lie about God - blaming Him for your behavior. Put the blame where it belongs - on yourself.

The thief on the cross proves it's not about actions that we are sent to hell for, in scripture, it's about belief. That's why in Revelation 21:8 It list 'fear' and 'unbelief' first and foremost, then followed by "abdominal" and things logically, generally considered to be actual crimes. 

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Fearful to commit as it was a fledgling cult and needed followers and unbelieving because that's the one 'act' your god and its pettiness won't forgive.

If you don't want to accept God's free offer, you don't have to.  You don't have to bend the knee in this world - you will have to bend the knee on the day of judgement.  You see, just as in this world, the guilty don't get to determine their sentence, the judge does.  Thanks for pointing that out with your Bible verse.

Thanks for finally admitting there is no freewill biblically and that you choose to worship evil incarnate. 

That depends Is the 'crime' an invention of a religious imaginative figure?. Does the punishment fit the crime? You haven't proven god exists nor does it prove it. That fact being what it is, if it did exist the freewill you claim it gives us I would use to resist tyrants who dispenses heavy handed punishment for a single, trivial act of freewill that has no criminal motives or actions behind it. Invent a word "sin" call it "unforgivable" and define it as "not believing illogical fantasies at face value" is not just or holy in any imaginable scenario. Yet you worship it, well the concept behind the imagination of its conception that is.

Such special pleading.  'My sin is just a little ole sin.  Its no big deal.'  You knowingly violated the direct orders of the King of all kings.  To put it into perspective for you, think of each of your sins as instances of treason, because that's what they are.  You want to minimize your sin.  And then you want to rage against God for giving you what you asked for 'a life without God in it'.  You continue to beclown yourself, making fallacious accusations.

Bitter the clown



The thief on the cross proves it's not about actions that we are sent to hell for, in scripture, it's about belief. That's why in Revelation 21:8 It list 'fear' and 'unbelief' first and foremost, then followed by "abdominal" and things logically, generally considered to be actual crimes. 
Revelation 21:6-8 reads:

 It is finished! I am the A and the Z—the Beginning and the End. I will give to the thirsty the springs of the Water of Life—as a gift! 7 Everyone who conquers will inherit all these blessings, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But cowards who turn back from following me, and those who are unfaithful to me, and the corrupt, and murderers, and the immoral, and those conversing with demons, and idol worshipers and all liars—their doom is in the Lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This is the Second Death.”

You fit the category of coward who turn back from following God.  That's the fear mentioned here and you are guilty of it.

You again display incredible biblical ignorance.  Are you sure you aren't related to 21st?  You sound about as rational as he does.  Belief can save, but it is sin that people are punished for.  You have failed to understand this numerous times.  Are you dimwitted?  Seems like that.  As the Bible says:

He will punish sin wherever it is found. He will punish the heathen when they sin, even though they never had God’s written laws, for down in their hearts they know right from wrong. God’s laws are written within them; their own conscience accuses them, or sometimes excuses them. And God will punish the Jews for sinning because they have his written laws but don’t obey them. They know what is right but don’t do it. After all, salvation is not given to those who know what to do, unless they do it. - Romans 2:12-15 Living

 But now God has shown us a different way to heaven—not by “being good enough” and trying to keep his laws, but by a new way (though not new, really, for the Scriptures told about it long ago). Now God says he will accept and acquit us—declare us “not guilty”—if we trust Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this same way, by coming to Christ, no matter who we are or what we have been like. 23 Yes, all have sinned; all fall short of God’s glorious ideal; 24 yet now God declares us “not guilty” of offending him if we trust in Jesus Christ, who in his kindness freely takes away our sins. - Romans 3:22-24 Living

You have the choice to accept or reject God.  Yet you pretend that you don't have that choice.  Its not God's fault you choose foolishly.

Factfinder

just_sayin said:

Factfinder said:

@just_sayin

What an ignorant claim by you.  God has every right to judge His creation.  You have not shown that God does not have a right to judge - instead you have shown that He does. If a judge gives someone the death penalty, is he to blame or is the one who committed the crime to blame?

That depends Is the 'crime' an invention of a religious imaginative figure?. Does the punishment fit the crime? You haven't proven god exists nor does it prove it. That fact being what it is, if it did exist the freewill you claim it gives us I would use to resist tyrants who dispenses heavy handed punishment for a single, trivial act of freewill that has no criminal motives or actions behind it. Invent a word "sin" call it "unforgivable" and define it as "not believing illogical fantasies at face value" is not just or holy in any imaginable scenario. Yet you worship it, well the concept behind the imagination of its conception that is.

God is both just and loving.  God holds us accountable for our behavior because He is just, but God is loving, knowing that without the option of Jesus paying the price for our sins, we are lost because of our own actions.  We all deserve to be punished for our sins, yet, God has shown grace.  Like all of your countless lies, you once again lie about God - blaming Him for your behavior. Put the blame where it belongs - on yourself.

The thief on the cross proves it's not about actions that we are sent to hell for, in scripture, it's about belief. That's why in Revelation 21:8 It list 'fear' and 'unbelief' first and foremost, then followed by "abdominal" and things logically, generally considered to be actual crimes. 

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Fearful to commit as it was a fledgling cult and needed followers and unbelieving because that's the one 'act' your god and its pettiness won't forgive.

If you don't want to accept God's free offer, you don't have to.  You don't have to bend the knee in this world - you will have to bend the knee on the day of judgement.  You see, just as in this world, the guilty don't get to determine their sentence, the judge does.  Thanks for pointing that out with your Bible verse.

Thanks for finally admitting there is no freewill biblically and that you choose to worship evil incarnate. 

That depends Is the 'crime' an invention of a religious imaginative figure?. Does the punishment fit the crime? You haven't proven god exists nor does it prove it. That fact being what it is, if it did exist the freewill you claim it gives us I would use to resist tyrants who dispenses heavy handed punishment for a single, trivial act of freewill that has no criminal motives or actions behind it. Invent a word "sin" call it "unforgivable" and define it as "not believing illogical fantasies at face value" is not just or holy in any imaginable scenario. Yet you worship it, well the concept behind the imagination of its conception that is.

Such special pleading.  'My sin is just a little ole sin.  Its no big deal.'  You knowingly violated the direct orders of the King of all kings.  To put it into perspective for you, think of each of your sins as instances of treason, because that's what they are.  You want to minimize your sin.  And then you want to rage against God for giving you what you asked for 'a life without God in it'.  You continue to beclown yourself, making fallacious accusations.

Bitter the clown



The thief on the cross proves it's not about actions that we are sent to hell for, in scripture, it's about belief. That's why in Revelation 21:8 It list 'fear' and 'unbelief' first and foremost, then followed by "abdominal" and things logically, generally considered to be actual crimes. 
Revelation 21:6-8 reads:

 It is finished! I am the A and the Z—the Beginning and the End. I will give to the thirsty the springs of the Water of Life—as a gift! 7 Everyone who conquers will inherit all these blessings, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But cowards who turn back from following me, and those who are unfaithful to me, and the corrupt, and murderers, and the immoral, and those conversing with demons, and idol worshipers and all liars—their doom is in the Lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This is the Second Death.”

You fit the category of coward who turn back from following God.  That's the fear mentioned here and you are guilty of it.

You again display incredible biblical ignorance.  Are you sure you aren't related to 21st?  You sound about as rational as he does.  Belief can save, but it is sin that people are punished for.  You have failed to understand this numerous times.  Are you dimwitted?  Seems like that.  As the Bible says:

He will punish sin wherever it is found. He will punish the heathen when they sin, even though they never had God’s written laws, for down in their hearts they know right from wrong. God’s laws are written within them; their own conscience accuses them, or sometimes excuses them. And God will punish the Jews for sinning because they have his written laws but don’t obey them. They know what is right but don’t do it. After all, salvation is not given to those who know what to do, unless they do it. - Romans 2:12-15 Living

 But now God has shown us a different way to heaven—not by “being good enough” and trying to keep his laws, but by a new way (though not new, really, for the Scriptures told about it long ago). Now God says he will accept and acquit us—declare us “not guilty”—if we trust Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this same way, by coming to Christ, no matter who we are or what we have been like. 23 Yes, all have sinned; all fall short of God’s glorious ideal; 24 yet now God declares us “not guilty” of offending him if we trust in Jesus Christ, who in his kindness freely takes away our sins. - Romans 3:22-24 Living

You have the choice to accept or reject God.  Yet you pretend that you don't have that choice.  Its not God's fault you choose foolishly.

What a babbling fool. Look I know I struck a cord with you but so what? You've no need to feel offended just because I don't believe in fairytales. The point is that's no choice in any imaginable reality. Bend the knee or else. Fact, get it? Freewill would allow the obvious third choice, to walk away no harm no foul. And god being what it claims offers true grace and says "because I'm just I'll sustain you as I'm responsible for creating you". But oh no he's too giddy about hell. And you like that. Why?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ;  If you desire to truly know our Creator's plan...read the Gospel of John....stop being lazy and foolish. 

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ;  If you desire to truly know our Creator's plan...read the Gospel of John....stop being lazy and foolish. 

There is no creator or a plan. I know the bible better than you as has been proven. 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; There is a Creator, His Name is Jesus and His plan is perfect and clearly articulated from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22 and anyone willing to read, study, pursue, will know this plan and hold our Creator in absolute Awe...and Love and appreciation for what He has done and why He did it. All that is required is a sincere heart that desires to know our Creator and HE WILL manifest Himself to you.

Joeseph

@just_sayin


A few observations: 1- evil isn't a 'created' thing - it is the privation of a thing, much like how darkness is not a tangible thing, but the the absence of light.  Evil is the absence of good.  It is not a created thing, but its existence is known as it is compared to objective good, such as God.

Nonsense , there is no moral ingredient in nature. Also you really need to read a bible remember Isaiah 45 : 6 ...." I make peace , and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" ..........this is the part where you say ......" well what that really means is  ........( insert own re-interpretion depending on your slant).

2 - atheists have no objective source of good or evil.  How can an atheist say anything is truly evil? 

What objective moral code do you follow?    Christian denominations disagree constantly on what's right and wrong , so can you list these objective moral dictates you all follow?


 If man is the result of nature, and nothing more, then he is neither good nor evil - nature is just following the laws of the universe.  Evil is just something the atheist deems unpleasant to them - but nature does not have motives - so even this is just subjective.  There is no true evil in the world of atheism - just things they don't like.

It works for me , I think a man who would watch a child being raped and walk on by without attempting to intervene is not a decent human being , you think the same yet think a god who could easily save the child is worthy of the utmost respect,  love and devotion , that's f-cked up.

3- People like to think that 'evil' is 'out there', but fail to acknowledge that evil has and does reside in each of us.

What people? You're actually talking about those who believe in objective morality do you not know what the term " objective" even means?


  We don't measure up to our own standards, let alone God's.  Our motives are often selfish and driven by anger, pride, self aggrandizement, and lust.  If God were to get rid of 'evil' the first thing he would have to get rid of would be us.  


So why doesn't he? What's his game? You don't talk for others how do you know what anyone's else's standards are?

You worship a god who's morality is arbitrary,  it's all on a whim , if your god says killing babies is right to you and your god its right .......wow.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; @Factfinder ; @21CenturyIconoclast

1) Isaiah 45:(7) in the KJV is a poor translation of the Hebrew "ra" which can be translated as "evil" but in its context the proper translation is "disaster" or "calamity" as the New King James Bible translators made the correction that the 1611 translators, rushing the edition into publication, failed to translate properly.

NKJVB: Isaiah 45:7: "I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things."

Our Creator is perfect in Holiness and Righteousness and He does not create evil nor can He violate His divine attributes but evil is present as the default of good-righteousness and free will. When a stone is removed from the soil, a hole or impression remains...the hole or impression was not created apart from the stone but exists due the absence of the stone...just as your life is absent the Holy Spirit, you live in spiritual darkness and evil by free will and will ultimately die in darkness in Hell lest your repentance is forthcoming before your last exhalation.

2) Every atheist intuitively knows good from evil because Elohim's moral law has been written upon the heart as an arbiter of free will relevant to concerns over unrestrained narcissism and for adjudicatory, due process, necessity in the approaching Judgment (Romans 2:14-15). Where there is no law there is no sin (Romans 4:15; 5:13); therefore, if atheists were absent the moral law, they would have no sin but we know that the atheist will die in Hell in their rejection of Messiah, their unrepentant immorality which defines their culpability as these are the demonically sick among us who have rejected the forgiveness of sin offered through faith in Messiah Jesus. 

3) It is true that evil resides within all of humanity due the Adamic sin-nature (Romans 5:12); the difference being, the atheist has no bulwark against evil other than the fear of being discovered, punishment by law or societal shame whereas the Christian is guided by the indwelling Holy Spirit, their conscience enlivened and made obedient through the rebirth of the Spirit via faith in Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:17); therefore, the Christian is guided by our Creator when confronted by a daily moral decision, their discernment is in-tune with our Creator's will (Galatians 5:16); on the other hand, the atheist is spiritually dead and therefore their wisdom and discernment flows through the darkness of the demonic and the conscience is progressively seared, numb, made irrelevant, as they progress into self-defilement and ultimately Hell.

Elohim does not desire that babies be murdered but if you're contemplating edicts given during a time of war between Israel and the demonic of your ancestors/pagans/atheists...Elohim chose to snuff-out the demonic seed that His eschatological imperatives concerning the Messiah, the Gospel, the Great Commission, the defeat of Satan, the Millennial Kingdom, the Judgement of the Condemned, the New Earth and New Heaven and the New Jerusalem manifest void a repeat of the Adamic and Noahic generations...okay...Elohim condoned and mandated the complete annihilation of the pagan tribes, including children, that fought against Israel's children - but you, on the other hand, represent a hoard of demons who have no authority over life yet you lather and fight to murder babies in the womb via abortion...you are a sick and vile hoard of demons. 

 

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw



ARGUMENT TOPIC : RICKEY IS OK WITH ABORTI9N ONCE HIS GOD IS DOING IT OR COMMAND8NG IT.

Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God’s intervention.  “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.  Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give?  Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.” Clearly Hosea desires that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children.  God of course obeys by making all their unborn children miscarry.  Is not terminating a pregnancy unnaturally “abortion”?

Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery.  This is considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man’s child.

Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.

Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”.  Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.

2 Kings 15:16 God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be “ripped open”. And the Christians have the audacity to say god is pro-life. How and the hell is it that Christians can read passages where God allows pregnant women to be murdered, yet still claim abortion is wrong?

OceanBlue

just_sayin said:

jack said:

Hello just:

Bingo.  We can't.  Evil is a religious construct that atheists don't accept..  Oh, we know what bad behavior is, and we know that automatically.  Nobody has to tell us.

What?  You don't automatically know that??  So, how do I know my kids are safe around you? 

excon

If you believe there is matter and nothing else, then there is no good or evil - matter doesn't have motives.  It just is.  Good and evil are just personal preference constructs.  But if you do believe true objective evil exists - then that is an evidence for God, for objective evil can not exist without an ultimate lawgiver.

The Christian world view does not say that the atheist has no morals, but that God has written his law on their hearts:

Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. - Romans 2:14-15

So even an atheist is without excuse before God.

just_sayin said:

JulesKorngold said:

If no, then God is not all-powerful.

If yes, then God why didn't he?

God is all-powerful.  Alvin Plantinga in his 'many worlds' theory claims that God could have created the universe without evil, but to do so would mean that human beings would need to be automatons, and nothing like they are now.  Any world where free will exists, there is the potential of evil to exist.  You can't have a world where free will exists, but it is never allowed to be exercised or where people's free will doesn't impact the world around them.  That's a logical fallacy.  It would be a logical fallacy to say someone has free will but they can only make the decisions that God wants them to make.  Either free will exists or it does not.  Being all-powerful does not mean doing that which is logically contradictory.  

Why would free will be important?  Because true love can only be experienced in a world where free will exists.  Forced love is not true love.  Plantiga suggests that love is the highest good and that God created a world wherein it could exist.  That means allowing evil to exist.

A few observations: 1- evil isn't a 'created' thing - it is the privation of a thing, much like how darkness is not a tangible thing, but the the absence of light.  Evil is the absence of good.  It is not a created thing, but its existence is known as it is compared to objective good, such as God.

2 - atheists have no objective source of good or evil.  How can an atheist say anything is truly evil?  If man is the result of nature, and nothing more, then he is neither good nor evil - nature is just following the laws of the universe.  Evil is just something the atheist deems unpleasant to them - but nature does not have motives - so even this is just subjective.  There is no true evil in the world of atheism - just things they don't like.

3- People like to think that 'evil' is 'out there', but fail to acknowledge that evil has and does reside in each of us.  We don't measure up to our own standards, let alone God's.  Our motives are often selfish and driven by anger, pride, self aggrandizement, and lust.  If God were to get rid of 'evil' the first thing he would have to get rid of would be us.  

"But if you do believe true objective evil exists - then that is an evidence for God, for objective evil can not exist without an ultimate lawgiver"

The most basic perception of what defines evil, involves causing harm (physical, psychological, or emotional) through conscious actions, whether it is with direct intention or by disregard of others. That general concept is the one that this debate wants to revolve around.
Of course, in practice, the complexity of human behaviour impedes any consensus of a precise moral code, hence why it is too hard to objectify (like politics), but not strictly impossible. For something to be objective, it must be free from biases, emotions and opinions. If anyone claims an objective morality, it may only seem objective to them and those who coincide with it. If a sacred text claims an objective morality code, it may only seem objective to its followers. 

It makes complete sense from a biological and sociological perspective that humanity could have developed rejection and disabowal to a general sense of evil, since reciprocity and cooperation often benefit individuals over selfishness and conflict, that's why there could be shared factors, intrinsic to human nature and social interaction, that could define a moral code beyond anything that was necessarily written onto them by a lawgiver. For this reason, you can believe that evil is in essence a pragmatic concept, without it being evidence for God.


"You can't have a world where free will exists, but it is never allowed to be exercised or where people's free will doesn't impact the world around them."

But you can have a world where your freedom is limited or where certain consequences are impossible, the evidence is clear, our world!
You cannot freely choose to grow wings and fly, because your free will is limited to the rules of this universe and your capacities as a human being. Out of your free will, you could try to kill someone by rubbing a crystal ball, but be unable to, since that is not a possible consequence of that action. These imply that even with free will being present, the extent of your available actions and consequences can be restricted, without fully negating that freedom exists, and that wide forms of choice are still available.


"True love can only be experienced in a world where free will exists.  Forced love is not true love.  Plantiga suggests that love is the highest good and that God created a world wherein it could exist.  That means allowing evil to exist."

Love and evil do not form a real dichotomy. We know you can cause harm by disregarding others, but as we see in our world, disregarding others doesn't strictly mean harm, it can also mean passivity, with neutral consequences, which is not something evil. Love, on the other hand, is not defined by a lack of evil, to me, a lack of evil is the definition of good, but not necessarily love. Many do no evil to some, without loving them. Love involves affection and concern over others, yet you can argue that love is not incompatible with evil, since the wicked are capable of harming their unloved for the benefit of their loved.

The vision that Plantiga poses, implies evil as a requirement for love to be appreciated. This fails to account for the fact that this clearly doesn't happen in reality, love is appreciated when in contrast with disregard, not with evil. 

It is true that forced love is not true love, but that is not what forced removal of purposefully inflicted pain means. It is also true that without pain and suffering, peace and well-being would not be appreciated, but precisely, this is the moment where a true omnipotent creator would be able to make a difference:

While it is true that pain and suffering are needed, because of our free will with the possibility to act evil, the victims of evil can end with overwhelming and unnecessary ammounts of pain.
An omnipotent being would be able to make a world where humans are free to love or disregard others, but not intentionally cause pain between eachother. Pain and suffering could still be present in their lifes, mainly as a consequence of their own actions to themselves.

What we see in our world, is that our free will has an excessive impact on the neighbouring, we can kill, we can end necessary finite sources, and we can torture. It is too obvious that less extreme forms of moral choice could suffice for any purpose of love or moral growth.

MayCaesar

I listened to an interesting podcast with a neuroscientist today, and he suggested that the level of happiness of humans in different societies and in different periods of time stays about the same. Humans adapt to their environment and accept it as the standard, no matter how good or bad that environment is, and they then compare everything to said standard. The median of their happiness is going to stay flat.

It might not therefore make sense to talk about the Universe with more or less evil: a Universe with less evil would simply change the expectation of the amount of evil in conscious beings accordingly. Say, a Universe in which physical suffering is completely absent - someone getting punched in the face would not experience any physical damage or negative reaction of the organism - would, in some absolute sense, intrinsically allow for less evil than our Universe - however, a society living in that Universe would likely experience other forms of suffering much more acutely, and to them something like being fired could be felt as unbearable as the most elaborate torture is to us.

"Good" and "evil" are intrinsically relative concepts, and I do not see how they can be put on an absolute scale allowing us to compare their amounts in different Universes. Similarly, I have always opposed the idea that, say, the rich people were somehow more privileged than the poor people: someone having the net worth of a billion dollars is not going to magically be happy all the time, and there could in fact be situations in which being poor is advantageous (for instance, being forced to stay in a roach-infested motel room for the night would be much less uncomfortable to a homeless person, than to Bill Gates).

Which is why the best way to go is to not compare everyone to you, but to compare you to the version of yourself that you strive to become - and move in that direction.

just_sayin

@Joeseph
Nonsense , there is no moral ingredient in nature. Also you really need to read a bible remember Isaiah 45 : 6 ...." I make peace , and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" ..........this is the part where you say ......" well what that really means is  ........( insert own re-interpretion depending on your slant).

Bless your little ole, and I do mean old, heart.  The verse you mention, Isaiah 45:6 does not mean that evil is a created thing.  The word for evil ,   (רַע, ra˓), used there also translates as 'calamity'.  Evil is not a physical thing that is created - the appropriate translation is 'calamity'.  Here is a article to help you.  Since you might be forgetful, having forgotten that this has been explained to you a half dozen times already.  Here is another article to help you.  And because you might be mentally slow  Here is another article for you.  And if you are intentionally misrepresenting the meaning of the text - Here is another article to help you.

What objective moral code do you follow?    Christian denominations disagree constantly on what's right and wrong , so can you list these objective moral dictates you all follow?

God as judge is the objective lawgiver.  Therefore, anything that anyone says, even a Christian, that disagrees with Him, is wrong.  I suspect you might be a little slow, Here is another article to help you.  You seem to have confused a group of people (denomination) with God Himself.  Here is a video to help you learn to count. And since you seem like a slow learner, Here is a video to help you learn to count

It works for me , I think a man who would watch a child being raped and walk on by without attempting to intervene is not a decent human being , you think the same yet think a god who could easily save the child is worthy of the utmost respect,  love and devotion , that's f-cked up.

What you are essentially demanding is that God give you free will, but not let you exercise it.  You seem a little slow so I won't write this fast:  F-r-e-e w-i-l-l m-e-a-n-s p-e-o-p-l-e c-a-n c-h-o-s-e t-o d-o b-a-d t-h-i-n-g-s.  It is the done side of having a world with love in it.  You can't have love without free will.  I believe God will judge all who do evil - you think evil people will get away with some of their bad actions.  That's what's messed up.

What people? You're actually talking about those who believe in objective morality do you not know what the term " objective" even means?

It is obvious that you do not.  Here's a video tutorial to help you.  Since the big words may confuse you. I am using 'objective' in the sense of not being subjective.  God is the creator of the world - he sets the rules for His creation.  Therefore He is the objective lawgiver.  Your opinion is subjective, not to mention pretty much always incoherent.  

You worship a god who's morality is arbitrary,  it's all on a whim , if your god says killing babies is right to you and your god its right .......wow.

What a statement.  I bet its an original thought of yours, isn't it?  Can you seriously suggest that you can comprehend the mind of God.  Unless you can know the outcome of every action and the domino effects of those actions for all time, you are making another unproveable claim.  To me, the issue is not that God's will is arbitrary, but that you aren't very bright and think you know everything God does.  

Factfinder

Can you seriously suggest that you can comprehend the mind of God. 

Hahahahaha, We know you don't. What a hilarious assertion "evil" isn't a thing but the state of mind that opposes god explanation. By your 'logic' one can switch the two words, 'god' and 'evil' and the same would be true, in lala land that is. In reality both are concepts of the human mind. Ever think about accepting truth, facts, logic, reason and reality @just_sayin? You should really watch that video on "objectivity", no really you should.

MayCaesar

@Factfinder

"I have a deep relationship with God. God loves me and has done so much for me. I feel like I am one with him!"

"Hmm, to me God seems rather cruel."

"Do you seriously believe that a human can comprehend the mind of God?"

Typical Christian logic. "I understand God when it is convenient, and in all other times his mind is incomprehensible".

RickeyHoltsclaw

@MayCaesar ;  The indwelling Holy Spirit leads Elohim's children to know Him and fathom His will.

Joeseph

@just_sayin


Bless your little ole, and I do mean old, heart.  The verse you mention, Isaiah 45:6 does not mean that evil is a created thing.  The word for evil ,   (רַע, ra˓), used there also translates as 'calamity'.  Evil is not a physical thing that is created - the appropriate translation is 'calamity'.  Here is a article to help you.  Since you might be forgetful, having forgotten that this has been explained to you a half dozen times already.  Here is another article to help you.  And because you might be mentally slow  Here is another article for you.  And if you are intentionally misrepresenting the meaning of the text - Here is another article to help you.


Just lying is in its usual rage as he's got schooled again, I don't know why you're sending  me link after link to christian website full of trolling imbeciles like you who think words have different, meanings if there meanings upset you. 




God as judge is the objective lawgiver. 

Your first job c-ck breath is to prove a god exists and then why a god that says buying people as property is worthy of worship, can you work on that?

 Therefore, anything that anyone says, even a Christian, that disagrees with Him, is wrong.  I suspect you might be a little slow, Here is another article to help you.  You seem to have confused a group of people (denomination) with God Himself.  Here is a video to help you learn to count. And since you seem like a slow learner, Here is a video to help you learn to count


Sending me link after link  to christian websites that you most likely jack off too  is hilarious why you think some other christian half - wit will convince me of what a d-mmy like you cannot is beyond me.




What you are essentially demanding is that God give you free will, but not let you exercise it.

Free will is illusory , your god doesn't have free will,  how can you? 


  You seem a little slow so I won't write this fast:  F-r-e-e w-i-l-l m-e-a-n-s p-e-o-p-l-e c-a-n c-h-o-s-e t-o d-o b-a-d t-h-i-n-g-s.  It is the done side of having a world with love in it. 

The only slow one here is you as you've got schooled on this before , let's ask you again .....pay attention d-mmy ......your god is apparently all powerful and all knowing he knows every possible future decision he will make so how has he got free will dummy?


You can't have love without free will.  I believe God will judge all who do evil - you think evil people will get away with some of their bad actions.  That's what's messed up.

Right got ya , so you cannot explain why god would watch a child be raped and do nothing except to say  he will get them when they die ......seriously ... bwahahahahahahaha 

God's love in action ........just watches ...........



It is obvious that you do not.  Here's a video tutorial to help you.  Since the big words may confuse you. I am using 'objective' in the sense of not being subjective.  God is the creator of the world - he sets the rules for His creation.  Therefore He is the objective lawgiver.  Your opinion is subjective, not to mention pretty much always incoherent.  


No it's actually obvious you haven't a clue what you're on about , you preached  about this objective morality and an objective lawgiver yet cannot mention this set of objective dictates all christians follow , so could you watch that video and get back to addressing what you're struggling with?




What a statement.  I bet its an original thought of yours, isn't it? 

Well it has you running as you cannot list of this list of agreed on moral dictates all,christians follow , do you want to try again?


 Can you seriously suggest that you can comprehend the mind of God. 

You seem to do it all the time by predicting exactly how your god thinks,  you said previously that a slave bought in the market place during biblical times had the lifestyle of Raymone Le Bron , that's a typical sample of your gods thinking  according to you who he seems to keep posted on these matters.

 Unless you can know the outcome of every action and the domino effects of those actions for all time, you are making another unproveable claim.

What are you on about , you're making no sense , you're just ranting and preaching as usual, you make Rickey look bright which is no mean feat.


  To me, the issue is not that God's will is arbitrary, but that you aren't very bright and think you know everything God does.  

Well you seem to speak for your god and know his every wish , funny Rickey does also but gets contradictory messages ,a pair of deranged simpletons.

Factfinder

@MayCaesar

I'm surprised Meriam Webster doesn't describe "Christian" as "hypocrite". LOL

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; My Lord does have free will as do you...you have chosen poorly.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ;  No, that's synonymous with fool which is a synonym for atheist.

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Nonsense 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ;

Agreed, atheism is "nonsense."

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ;  No, that's synonymous with fool which is a synonym for atheist.

Psalm 14:1-3King James Version

14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Do you ever get tire of being stoopid ricky? In public you constantly demonstrate you don't know the bible and worship ignorance. Psalm 14:1 refers to everyone including you, , as your elf god looked down on earth and none sought him. And there is truth I don't seek him and neither do you. I seek truth, peace and the American way where as you seek pride in ignorance and bigotry. Of course the false part is some wise people don't seek god, but in your case all three verses are true! Do you still wish you were as smart as atheists appear to be?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ;  I find it interesting to entertain the idio-cy of atheists, those who have chosen to die in Hell in complete self-deception....it's interesting to see and hear the mental illness in real time.

Factfinder

@RickeyHoltsclaw

it's interesting to see and hear the mental illness in real time.

Voices in your head again eh ricky?

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Factfinder ; If you were not perishing in the foolishness of atheistic narcissism and you humbled yourself and trusted in Jesus as Messiah with a sincere heart, you would possess the indwelling Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14) and understand how our Creator communicates with His children while we're constrained in decaying bodies subject to Time and physics but as it is, you are dead spiritually - you have no understanding of the Spiritual World, the goodness and love of our Creator or the anointing of the Holy Spirit....you're a lost bump on the log...a sounding gong without knowledge or understanding who shouts into the darkness of nihilism as he destines himself to the "second death" in Hell with a boisterous laugh.

just_sayin

MayCaesar said:

@Factfinder

"I have a deep relationship with God. God loves me and has done so much for me. I feel like I am one with him!"

"Hmm, to me God seems rather cruel."

"Do you seriously believe that a human can comprehend the mind of God?"

Typical Christian logic. "I understand God when it is convenient, and in all other times his mind is incomprehensible".

May, you have made a fallacious claim.  You have argued that because someone can know something of God, that we can know everything about Him.  If God is infinite, timeless, spaceless, immaterial, eternal, and all-knowing, how could you understand everything God knows or experiences, since you are finite, temporal, space inhabiting, material, and your physical being dies, and you are not all-knowing?  It seems to me, you have confused partial knowledge with total knowledge.  

Factfinder

RickeyHoltsclaw said:

@Factfinder ; If you were not perishing in the foolishness of atheistic narcissism and you humbled yourself and trusted in Jesus as Messiah with a sincere heart, you would possess the indwelling Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14) and understand how our Creator communicates with His children while we're constrained in decaying bodies subject to Time and physics but as it is, you are dead spiritually - you have no understanding of the Spiritual World, the goodness and love of our Creator or the anointing of the Holy Spirit....you're a lost bump on the log...a sounding gong without knowledge or understanding who shouts into the darkness of nihilism as he destines himself to the "second death" in Hell with a boisterous laugh.

Yes I see...

just_sayin

@Joeseph

Just lying is in its usual rage as he's got schooled again, I don't know why you're sending  me link after link to christian website full of trolling imbeciles like you who think words have different, meanings if there meanings upset you. 

You schooled me?  LOL!!!  I pointed out that you repeated a previous false claim.  You took a verse out of context and gave it a meaning that it does not have in the original language.  You then claim that I am the one 'making things up'.  LOL.  Have you thought about stand up?

Your first job c-ck breath is to prove a god exists and then why a god that says buying people as property is worthy of worship, can you work on that?

The debate question presupposes that God exists. There is nothing about what the Bible says about slavery in the debate topic either. I don't need to chase every rabbit down every hole just cause you said so.  Why do you want to keep changing the topic?  

your god is apparently all powerful and all knowing he knows every possible future decision he will make so how has he got free will dummy?

God's foreknowledge of the future does not mean you don't make your own choices.  God stands outside of spacetime.  Past, present and future are all perceived by Him at the same time.  You have wrongly assumed determinism in God's foreknowledge.  The 2 things are 2 separate things.  Your choices are yours.

Right got ya , so you cannot explain why god would watch a child be raped and do nothing except to say  he will get them when they die ......seriously ... bwahahahahahahaha 

I keep pointing this out, if God allows free will, then evil things are possible.  Without free will there is no true love.  So, in theory God could have a world with no evil and no free will, and there would be no such thing as true love either.  God has chosen to create a world with love in it.  You have made the allegation that God has promised you a problem free life.  Can you provide documentation on this?  Otherwise it seems like another one of your bogus fake claims about God.

No it's actually obvious you haven't a clue what you're on about , you preached  about this objective morality and an objective lawgiver yet cannot mention this set of objective dictates all christians follow , so could you watch that video and get back to addressing what you're struggling with?

Its obvious that you did not watch the Sesame Street counting videos.  You continue to wrongly believe that what God says and what some other group of people say must always be the same, like they are one and the same.  Go watch your counting video and then get back to me.  All cultures have been found to have core moral beliefs - think 10 commandments.  

MayCaesar

just_sayin said:

MayCaesar said:

@Factfinder

"I have a deep relationship with God. God loves me and has done so much for me. I feel like I am one with him!"

"Hmm, to me God seems rather cruel."

"Do you seriously believe that a human can comprehend the mind of God?"

Typical Christian logic. "I understand God when it is convenient, and in all other times his mind is incomprehensible".

May, you have made a fallacious claim.  You have argued that because someone can know something of God, that we can know everything about Him.  If God is infinite, timeless, spaceless, immaterial, eternal, and all-knowing, how could you understand everything God knows or experiences, since you are finite, temporal, space inhabiting, material, and your physical being dies, and you are not all-knowing?  It seems to me, you have confused partial knowledge with total knowledge.  

I, of course, have not argued that. I think I can comprehend your mind, at least: it operates on endless lies.

Joeseph

@just_sayin



1

ARGUMENT TOPIC: JUST LYING CAUGHT DOING WHAT HE ALWAYS DOES AND GETS CALLED ON .....LYING


I took nothing out of context you ignored the translation of " RA" from your own source which said that "RA" has two meanings the main one ie .....EVIL .....


You're correction continues below .....you've been caught lying yet again. 
....
...

New Living Translation

The LORD has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for a day of disaster

 The Hebrew word translated as “evil” (ra‘) in the King James Version of Isaiah 45:7 has two applications in the Bible. The term can be used in the sense of moral evil, such as wickedness and sin (Matthew 12:35; Judges 3:12; Proverbs 8:13; 3 John 1:11), or it can refer to harmful natural events, calamity, misfortune, adversity, affliction, or disaster. 

Ra` Definition

NAS Word Usage - Total: 239

adj

bad, evil

bad, disagreeable, malignant

bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)

evil, displeasing

bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)

bad (of value)

worse than, worst (comparison)

sad, unhappy

evil (hurtful)

bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)

bad, evil, wicked (ethically)

in general, of persons, of thoughts

deeds, actions n m

evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity

evil, distress, adversity

evil, injury, wrong

evil (ethical) n f

evil, misery, distress, injury

evil, misery, distress

evil, injury, wrong

evil (ethical)

2

The debate topic is  ...

Could God Have Created The Universe Without Evil?

My point is perfectly valid and on topic which is why you refuse to answer my question regarding why you choose to worship an entity that says you can own people as property .....cat got your tounge yet again?


3
  I've asked you how can god have free will if he knows his every future decision ,all you've done is tell me the attributes of God according to you after screeching at everyone else about assuming to know the mind of god...LOL 

So seeing as you have its ear can you ask it how it has free will in any meaningful.sense?

Also we still don't have free will its illusory.


4 

Stop lying , I still don't believe in god and I never said that a god promised me a problem free life , why do you consistently lie.

Yet we don't nor does god have free will yet there is love, please stop spouting nonsense.

Also you still refuse to answer what I asked ....
Explain why god would watch a child be raped and do nothing when he easily can  except to say  he will get them when they die?

Bet you run again.


5

Counting videos , ? That's your reply to my question on objective morality you refuse to answer?

Well done you've finally realised that all cultures have moral codes , you totally ignore most of the 10 commandments like most so called Christians and that's your objective moral code ? Seriously?

Christians don't know how to be decent people without following a list of rules they mostly ignore and only do so because they fear divine disapproval....LOL 

Atheists had this figured out without a need for god , worse for the christian they believe that a god who could save a child from being raped but doesn't bother is the perfect example of a perfect moral entity.

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw

Yes how remiss of me I forgot believing in talking snakes and  donkeys was the benchmark for measuring Christians intellect.

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph ; As I said, the Hebrew "ra" has various meanings and therefore must be allocated its rightful place strictly in accordance with context....our Creator is perfection in Holiness and Righteousness; therefore, He does NOT create evil...evil is a natural occurrence or the reciprocal of good, holiness, righteousness, which are a choice presented us via free will. 

 

RickeyHoltsclaw

@Joeseph @Factfinder @21CenturyIconoclast ; If you studied and sought the Lord with a pure heart, you would understand the deeper Truths of Scripture and how the Holy Spirit weaves these beautiful threads together throughout His words via precept upon precept. It is the one who searches and seeks and desires with a heart willing to believe that receives the deeper Truths of Scripture often likened to the peeling away of an onion skin...the more steadfast the search, the more the Holy Spirit reveals.

First of all...there was no "talking snake" in Eden but the Holy Spirit used the attributes of a serpent as analogous to the attributes of Satan. If one studies and listens to the Spirit, they will find that the Holy Spirit discreetly describes what Eve observed and communed with in Eden and why she was so enamored by what she observed. 

You, your atheism, are physics bound - you do not possess the cognitive and spiritual acuity, due your atheism, to understand that the World constrained by the Realm of Time is a minuscule, almost irrelevant and temporary, fragment of reality and that there exists a Spiritual Realm surrounding us, permeating us, that is infinitely superior and more detailed and complex than this temporary creation that is decaying daily. 99% of all that is manifesting before our eyes is rooted in the unseen Spiritual World...Jesus plainly tells you that He is NOT from this Realm of Time...His Kingdom is in the Spiritual World (John 18:36). 

If you desire to know what Eve observed in Eden, I'll share the Holy Spirit's account as He interrupts the prophet Ezekiel's warning to the King of Tyre to insert a tidbit of knowledge to those who seek it...the MEME below articulates these relevant verses. 

________________________

Balaam's donkey did not actually "speak" but the Angel of Lord used that donkey to catch the undivided attention of Balaam and spoke through the dumb animal for cause.

Balaam’s Donkey

21 Balaam got up in the morning, saddled his donkey and went with the Moabite officials. 22 But God was very angry when he went, and the angel of the Lord stood in the road to oppose him. Balaam was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him. 23 When the donkey saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road with a drawn sword in his hand, it turned off the road into a field. Balaam beat it to get it back on the road.

24 Then the angel of the Lord stood in a narrow path through the vineyards, with walls on both sides. 25 When the donkey saw the angel of the Lord, it pressed close to the wall, crushing Balaam’s foot against it. So he beat the donkey again.

26 Then the angel of the Lord moved on ahead and stood in a narrow place where there was no room to turn, either to the right or to the left. 27 When the donkey saw the angel of the Lord, it lay down under Balaam, and he was angry and beat it with his staff. 28 Then the Lord opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam, “What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?”

29 Balaam answered the donkey, “You have made a fool of me! If only I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now.”

30 The donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?”

“No,” he said.

31 Then the Lord opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown.

32 The angel of the Lord asked him, “Why have you beaten your donkey these three times? I have come here to oppose you because your path is a reckless one before me.[a] 33 The donkey saw me and turned away from me these three times. If it had not turned away, I would certainly have killed you by now, but I would have spared it.”

34 Balaam said to the angel of the Lord, “I have sinned. I did not realize you were standing in the road to oppose me. Now if you are displeased, I will go back.”

35 The angel of the Lord said to Balaam, “Go with the men, but speak only what I tell you.” So Balaam went with Balak’s officials.

just_sayin

@OceanBlue
It makes complete sense from a biological and sociological perspective that humanity could have developed rejection and disabowal to a general sense of evil, since reciprocity and cooperation often benefit individuals over selfishness and conflict, that's why there could be shared factors, intrinsic to human nature and social interaction, that could define a moral code beyond anything that was necessarily written onto them by a lawgiver. For this reason, you can believe that evil is in essence a pragmatic concept, without it being evidence for God.

You can only have objective good or evil if there is an objective lawgiver that everyone must answer to.  If you discount God, then you can't have objective good or evil - evil or good then becomes what an individual or group prefer or dislike.  If another individual or group disagrees, then the strong group's morals prevail.  Essentially in this scenario, good and evil are determined by might makes right.  If someone believes that it is wrong to murder and a serial killer thinks its OK. Well, then he must have been just for killing the other person, his 'morals' prevailed

In contrast, if there is an objective lawgiver, it doesn't matter who agrees or disagrees - everyone will be held accountable and to the same standard.  

But you can have a world where your freedom is limited or where certain consequences are impossible, the evidence is clear, our world!
You cannot freely choose to grow wings and fly, because your free will is limited to the rules of this universe and your capacities as a human being. Out of your free will, you could try to kill someone by rubbing a crystal ball, but be unable to, since that is not a possible consequence of that action. These imply that even with free will being present, the extent of your available actions and consequences can be restricted, without fully negating that freedom exists, and that wide forms of choice are still available.

Yes, as a non-God being your options are limited to the kind of being you are and to the environment you exist in.  However, it would be false to conclude because you can not do things only God can do, that you have no free will and can not make any choices at all.  Further, I would observe, that if you exercise free will, and your actions are not allowed to happen - such as hate, anger, lying, etc.  then you don't really have free will  A choice that can not be actualized is not real but imaginary.  

Love and evil do not form a real dichotomy. 

I don't remember arguing that they did.  I would imagine the opposite of love is hate, and the opposite of evil is good.  Plantiga's observation is only that free will is needed for love to exist.

The vision that Plantiga poses, implies evil as a requirement for love to be appreciated. This fails to account for the fact that this clearly doesn't happen in reality, love is appreciated when in contrast with disregard, not with evil. 

No.  Evil is not needed to appreciate love.  What is needed for true love to exist is free will, which therefore allows for evil to also be a possibility.  That is Plantiga's argument - there is no yin-yang thing going on between love and evil. Merely, a universe where free will exists permits both true love and evil to exist.  

It is true that forced love is not true love, but that is not what forced removal of purposefully inflicted pain means. It is also true that without pain and suffering, peace and well-being would not be appreciated, but precisely, this is the moment where a true omnipotent creator would be able to make a difference:

If a choice can't be actualized - in other words it can not happen or the results can not occur that are associated with the choice - then it isn't really a choice to start with.  

Joeseph

@RickeyHoltsclaw

As I said, the Hebrew "ra" has various meanings and therefore must be allocated its rightful place strictly in accordance with context..

As I'm saying the accepted definition is " evil" , you worship an evil God who admits to creating evil .......suck it up.



..our Creator is perfection in Holiness and Righteousness; therefore,

Yet he says you may buy people as property.


He does NOT create evil.

He does and admits it in his own words.


..evil is a natural occurrence or the reciprocal of good, holiness, righteousness, which are a choice presented us via free will. 

Your god doesn't have free will neither do you.

just_sayin

Joeseph said:

@RickeyHoltsclaw

As I said, the Hebrew "ra" has various meanings and therefore must be allocated its rightful place strictly in accordance with context..

As I'm saying the accepted definition is " evil" , you worship an evil God who admits to creating evil .......suck it up.



..our Creator is perfection in Holiness and Righteousness; therefore,

Yet he says you may buy people as property.


He does NOT create evil.

He does and admits it in his own words.


..evil is a natural occurrence or the reciprocal of good, holiness, righteousness, which are a choice presented us via free will. 

Your god doesn't have free will neither do you.

@Joeseph
First, don't be a troll.  You know you are lying and continue to do so.  I had a year of biblical Hebrew in school and even with the little I remember, I knew that (רַע, ra˓) should be translated calamity when the surrounding context is about nature.  You even quoted one of the articles I gave you that says this.  Stop lying to Rickey.  Don't be a troll.

The Bible does not say 'buy' people as property in the original - the word translated 'buy' is  actually the word for 'acquire'.  It is the same term used when a woman has a baby - did she buy the child in her womb?  Again, I mention that one could not kidnap someone and make them a slave as that was a capital offense.  The slave/servant  (Hebrew eved) had to agree to the arrangement, as they could not be kidnapped, and they did not lose their rights. So the idea that they are 'property' is like how LeBron James is the 'property' of the LA Lakers.  This has been explained to your troll self and you continue to misrepresent what the situation was.  

A very popular scientific notion is that free will is an illusion and everything is predetermined.  If that scientific theory is true, then you were always meant to be a pathetic troll who no one likes and who bombs websites with half truths and full lies.  You should hope, God is real and that you can change.  It would be depressing to think that all you could ever be is,  well, no offense intended, you.

MayCaesar

just_sayin said:

A very popular scientific notion is that free will is an illusion and everything is predetermined.  If that scientific theory is true, then you were always meant to be a pathetic troll who no one likes and who bombs websites with half truths and full lies.

Could you elaborate a bit on this? How does the idea that everything is predetermined suggest that people's behaviors cannot change over time? Why cannot the change itself be predetermined?

Determinism does not at all imply that things are somehow static, or even predictable. It simply implies that there exists a set of laws of the Universe from which, having perfect information about the world at this moment and an infinitely powerful prediction machine, one can predict the state of the Universe at any point in the future. That set of laws may be unfeasible to discover by any intelligent being.

For practical purposes, there is no difference between determinism and non-determinism. The distinction is purely philosophical.

GiantMan

MayCaesar said:

just_sayin said:

A very popular scientific notion is that free will is an illusion and everything is predetermined.  If that scientific theory is true, then you were always meant to be a pathetic troll who no one likes and who bombs websites with half truths and full lies.

Could you elaborate a bit on this? How does the idea that everything is predetermined suggest that people's behaviors cannot change over time? Why cannot the change itself be predetermined?

Determinism does not at all imply that things are somehow static, or even predictable. It simply implies that there exists a set of laws of the Universe from which, having perfect information about the world at this moment and an infinitely powerful prediction machine, one can predict the state of the Universe at any point in the future. That set of laws may be unfeasible to discover by any intelligent being.

For practical purposes, there is no difference between determinism and non-determinism. The distinction is purely philosophical.

You would have more luck teaching a fish to ride a bicycle or a snake to tap dance than getting @Joeseph to not be a troll.

Factfinder

@just_sayin

A very popular scientific notion is that free will is an illusion and everything is predetermined.  If that scientific theory is true, then you were always meant to be a pathetic troll who no one likes and who bombs websites with half truths and full lies.  You should hope, God is real and that you can change.  It would be depressing to think that all you could ever be is,  well, no offense intended, you.

It would dispel the fallacy of biblical freewill. No offense but you're still a troll and can't help it, no freewill.

Joeseph

@just_sayin

ARGUMENT TOPIC : ACCORDING TO JUST LYING THE WORD "PURCHASE" DOESN' T MEAN " BUY" ....THE WORD " BUY " DOESN'T MEAN " PURCHASE: ..... THE WORD " EVIL" DOESN"T MEAN "EVIL"...... AND THE WORD "SLAVE" ACTUALLY DOESN'T MEAN "SLAVE"........

Pointing out the flaws in your nonsense is not trolling and the one lying is you, every member on site has called you out for constantly lying and misrepresenting them.

Claiming you studied the bible on an apologetics course for Mormons is like saying you studied Astrology with new age hippys.

The word " ra " has two meanings the main one being evil your own article agrees

Your constant denials and trolling are getting tiresome


Yet again pretending words have different meanings demonstrates how absurd and pathetic your arguments are .....the word "buy" means purchase you clown and your pretending that we are talking about kidnapping is a further demonstration of how you consistently lie and misrepresent your superior opponent's arguments ....

I've even included  the verse with the word "purchase" which no doubt you will invent an alternative meaning for ......


However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Leviticus 25:44-46New International Version

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

ZING 

Read that again troll " inherited property"

Le Bron is the " property" of the LA Lakers ???? .....show us that part of his contract you Troll?

You keep getting schooled and put in your place and your anger leads you to lash out why not come up with decent arguments instead?

Or better still.actually read a bible.

Here are the questions you refuse to answer maybe Rickety can help you?

How can god have free will if it knows all its future decisions?

What are these set of objective dictates all Christians agree on?

Why do you lick gods b - tt when he would watch a child being raped and do nothing?

Would you pass your kids on as inheritance and property?

Why are you always misrepresenting and lying about others?

Why are you like Rickety constantly furious?